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Author Topic: Read but don't jump off the ledge  (Read 6322 times)

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Porked Tongue

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Read but don't jump off the ledge
« on: April 10, 2017, 09:28:27 pm »

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Hogfan991

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2017, 09:30:28 pm »

No wonder we want Weathers and Hardy  :(
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hogcam

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2017, 09:37:39 pm »

They should! It doesn't hurt them! See where they stack up and see places in their game that they need to get better  :razorback:
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FineAsSwine

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2017, 09:38:17 pm »

Wish we could go ahead and lock that 11 seed in right now. Hell, I would settle for the play in game if Barford and Macon both leave. Wish the best for both of them but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't wishing they both came back.
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Letsroll1200

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2017, 09:44:55 pm »

They should! It doesn't hurt them! See where they stack up and see places in their game that they need to get better  :razorback:

They should definitely go through the process
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The Hogfather

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2017, 09:45:54 pm »

Just as long as they actually take the assessment constructively and come back to work on their games, I'm all for it.
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PonderinHog

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2017, 10:00:31 pm »

Just stay away from this guy!

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247Hog

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2017, 10:04:10 pm »

Not worried. Smart for them to do it without hiring an agent. Can help them both be stronger players for us next year by focusing on main weakness.
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rzrbackramsfan

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2017, 10:04:55 pm »


Good deal. And if they can make crazy money, go for it.
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Porked Tongue

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2017, 10:05:24 pm »

I'd say Barford is 99.99% coming back.

I'd say Macon is 98% coming back. 
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PonderinHog

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2017, 10:07:52 pm »

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KenHawg2023

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2017, 10:12:47 pm »

I agree it should help them . I just know temptation can be a mother man...good luck fellas
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Dwight_K_Shrute

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2017, 10:13:48 pm »

Other thing to think about is they have only been D1 for a year. This helps get their name out their and get on teams radar. If they can go through the process and come back why the heck not. No one should knock them for this although odds are some jack ass that considers himself a fan will
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Ironhawg

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2017, 10:26:07 pm »

Allowing players to throw their names out there and get a report from the NBA on where they stand is a good thing.  Maybe it helps some players decide to stay in college who in the past would have been convinced to leave by people whispering in their ears that they were a draft lock when the reality is that they never were a lock.
Good luck to the young men.  Whatever their decisions I hope they are the right ones for their futures.
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jjdlc

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2017, 06:24:04 am »

I'd say Barford is 99.99% coming back.

I'd say Macon is 98% coming back.

Agreed.

I would be more shocked if they didn't submit their names for evaluation.
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Dominicanhog

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2017, 06:33:26 am »

I'd say Barford is 99.99% coming back.

I'd say Macon is 98% coming back.

about the same % chance of our making the NCAA's next year if they do...
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Pork Twain

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2017, 06:33:48 am »

If I were in their position, I would do the same thing.  You have to gauge your value and do what is best for you and yours.  It was harder for me to understand that while I was in the USAF for 21, but once I retired and returned to the open job market, it became much more clear to me.  Since then, I was a defense contractor, moved to a government civilian position for a little less money and more long-term job-security and finally went back to being defense contractor for much more money.  I have a much greater appreciation for why these kids do what they do, having just begun this process myself.  The rest of the world, outside of a few people, is just worried about what they can get out of you.
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blu

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2017, 06:34:09 am »

I see this as expected, and in reality good news with the no agent thing.
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hogwood

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2017, 06:39:54 am »

Same as Moses last year. Go get some feedback then return for a SW16 run.
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Hawg Red

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2017, 07:50:14 am »

It would be more surprising to me if they didn't. The real shocker would be if either of them hired an agent and gave up the opportunity to shine in the SEC next season. They have the ability to play themselves into the NBA draft and enhance their overseas profile by coming back. As it stands now, neither would sniff the draft (not an insult, actually) and they'd be relegated to inferior international leagues. Very few players actually have much to gain from returning for the senior year in terms of the NBA (because most seniors go in the second round which has become actually less attractive than being an undrafted free agent), but the good Euroleague (type) teams want those good college seniors. They value experience over there. They develop homegrown talent through junior clubs, so they want their foreign players as developed as possible.
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poloprince

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2017, 08:21:27 am »

Neither is NBA ready, but it wouldn't to get evaluated.
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The_Iceman

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2017, 10:01:47 am »

They are juniors. Why wouldn't they do this? Nothing to lose.
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hawginbigd1

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2017, 10:25:03 am »

They are juniors. Why wouldn't they do this? Nothing to lose.
I have no problem with the idea, I just think the timing is terrible, schools are going to get shafted on this, and its not the Kentucky and Duke's of the world. Its going to be the Arkansas on down to the Murray States of the world who are going to be surprised and have to either reach for a player in May/June or have a one year void because of the timing.
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Hawg Red

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2017, 10:49:19 am »

I have no problem with the idea, I just think the timing is terrible, schools are going to get shafted on this, and its not the Kentucky and Duke's of the world. Its going to be the Arkansas on down to the Murray States of the world who are going to be surprised and have to either reach for a player in May/June or have a one year void because of the timing.

There is no good timing after the season is over. No way around it. These kids aren't getting paid to play for Arkansas or any other school, so it's important for them to gather all the resources they can for the next phase of their lives.
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onebadrubi

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2017, 10:57:02 am »

Someone lay out the time table for me please. 

-When do these guys have to pull their names out of the draft to be eligible to come back?
-Is there a deadline for transfers?  (I don't believe so, but asking anyways)
-When is the second signing period officially start?

Theoretically, the deadline to pull their names back should be before the second signing period starts, but that makes too much common sense to trust the NCAA got that right.
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East TN HAWG

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2017, 11:06:48 am »

I just hope they do not get "Kirkland."  Some crazy publication and/or agent telling them/families crazy information that is not close to being accurate.  They go pro and not get drafted. 

In the end, it may work out for Kirkland with the Raiders, but his bank account would have been much larger at this point in time if he would have stayed another year   
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bhogs05

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2017, 11:21:00 am »

I have a bad feeling that Macon is going to leave...no knowledge or inside info just my gut thinking. I hope I am wrong though. I'm hoping he gets the info that shows him he is not going to be drafted and decides to come back to make a deeper run in the tourney. 
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Hawg Red

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2017, 11:45:19 am »

Someone lay out the time table for me please. 

-When do these guys have to pull their names out of the draft to be eligible to come back?
-Is there a deadline for transfers?  (I don't believe so, but asking anyways)
-When is the second signing period officially start?

Theoretically, the deadline to pull their names back should be before the second signing period starts, but that makes too much common sense to trust the NCAA got that right.


-When do these guys have to pull their names out of the draft to be eligible to come back? June 12. However, the NBA Draft combine in Chicago is May 9-14, so most players will pull their names out once they have not received an invite to that.

-Is there a deadline for transfers?  (I don't believe so, but asking anyways) You are correct that there is no transfer deadline, though most players have announced their transfer and selected their next school by the end of May.

-When is the second signing period officially start? The "regular" signing period for Division 1 basketball is from April 12 - May 17. There essentially is no end date, but NLIs cannot be signed after May 17.
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onebadrubi

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2017, 12:10:58 pm »


-When do these guys have to pull their names out of the draft to be eligible to come back? June 12. However, the NBA Draft combine in Chicago is May 9-14, so most players will pull their names out once they have not received an invite to that.

-Is there a deadline for transfers?  (I don't believe so, but asking anyways) You are correct that there is no transfer deadline, though most players have announced their transfer and selected their next school by the end of May.

-When is the second signing period officially start? The "regular" signing period for Division 1 basketball is from April 12 - May 17. There essentially is no end date, but NLIs cannot be signed after May 17.

Thanks!
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hawginbigd1

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2017, 12:16:58 pm »

There is no good timing after the season is over. No way around it. These kids aren't getting paid to play for Arkansas or any other school, so it's important for them to gather all the resources they can for the next phase of their lives.
I concur there is not much that can be done easily. However I think the timeline could be shortened.

As much money as I have forked out for my own college and my kids already and in the future I take exception to that statement.
 
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mbgrulz

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2017, 12:23:41 pm »

I concur there is not much that can be done easily. However I think the timeline could be shortened.

As much money as I have forked out for my own college and my kids already and in the future I take exception to that statement.
 
Exaclty.

JJ Redick came out and said something like "they need to be paid, scholarships don't count."

I wish I could tell the bank the same thing every month when the SL payments are due!
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jry04

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2017, 12:42:54 pm »


-When do these guys have to pull their names out of the draft to be eligible to come back? June 12. However, the NBA Draft combine in Chicago is May 9-14, so most players will pull their names out once they have not received an invite to that.

Players must remove their name by 10 days after the combine. All players who intend on staying in school have until May 24th to remove their names. They have until April 23rd to announce their intentions of entering the draft.
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Hawg Red

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2017, 12:49:20 pm »

I concur there is not much that can be done easily. However I think the timeline could be shortened.

As much money as I have forked out for my own college and my kids already and in the future I take exception to that statement.

Do you think the cost of their scholarships are equal to the value they are bringing to the university? I'm not saying them getting scholarships have no value, but let's be honest and accept the fact that many of these kids aren't likely to do anything with that degree because of their upbringing. They are looking to play basketball. Major universities are making tens of millions each year off football and men's basketball players. There can't be any debate about this. Want to restrict stuff like this? Pay them and make them student-athlete-employees. Until then, the least they can do is let them explore their potential professional options.

This is coming from someone who took out student loans all throughout college and is living with that debt currently. Players like Barford and Macon enable other, non-athlete students to enjoy the University of Arkansas more and make it a more attractive school. They university is getting them for dirt cheap. You can't justify giving young men who were not raised to be academically-minded full scholarships and that's it. Even when you factor in the exposure they get from playing in the SEC, the university still gets the better end of the day by far. These kids are putting in more than they are getting out. Cost of scholarship + we'll give a generous 100k salary (which the vast majority of students will never see) post-college =/= what the schools/NCAA are making off them. There is a lot of value in being a scholarship athlete for an SEC school in men's basketball, but they aren't getting equal value or anywhere near it. They have to rely on professional basketball for that, so they should be given plenty of time to figure that out.
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Hawg Red

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2017, 12:50:44 pm »

Players must remove their name by 10 days after the combine. All players who intend on staying in school have until May 24th to remove their names. They have until April 23rd to announce their intentions of entering the draft.

My bad. That's not listed on the NBA's website with the key dates. I should have considered that they wouldn't include that since it doesn't apply to the NBA.
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HotlantaHog

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2017, 12:54:51 pm »

I expect the NBA would tell them to come back to Arkansas ... or that their draft status would be so low there would be no point in leaving early.
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azhog10

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2017, 01:02:49 pm »

Not sure why anyone would take this negatively. I'm sure CMA told them both it would be good for them to put their names in and be assessed. It just gives them a chance to get feedback on where they are, so they can work on their game to give them the best chance to possibly be drafted or get a spot on a summer team somewhere. Nothing at all to even consider jumping off a ledge and even though I'm not really shocked some would be up in arms, i am shocked by the post.
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phadedhawg

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2017, 01:09:22 pm »

Of course is raises the heart rate a bit but if they were my sons I'd tell em that they had to do it.  How else will you know where you stand?

I just hope that both realize coming back is in their best interests but making an informed decision is always better.
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Youngsta71701

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2017, 01:12:51 pm »

That's the smart move. They'll get the feed back they need to let them know they need to comeback and what they need to work on. Sounds like a Moses repeat to me. They still aren't on anyone's NBA draft radar.
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Youngsta71701

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2017, 01:14:08 pm »

They should! It doesn't hurt them! See where they stack up and see places in their game that they need to get better  :razorback:
+1, It's the smart thing to do.
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hawginbigd1

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #39 on: April 11, 2017, 01:27:45 pm »

Do you think the cost of their scholarships are equal to the value they are bringing to the university? I'm not saying them getting scholarships have no value, but let's be honest and accept the fact that many of these kids aren't likely to do anything with that degree because of their upbringing. They are looking to play basketball. Major universities are making tens of millions each year off football and men's basketball players. There can't be any debate about this. Want to restrict stuff like this? Pay them and make them student-athlete-employees. Until then, the least they can do is let them explore their potential professional options.

This is coming from someone who took out student loans all throughout college and is living with that debt currently. Players like Barford and Macon enable other, non-athlete students to enjoy the University of Arkansas more and make it a more attractive school. They university is getting them for dirt cheap. You can't justify giving young men who were not raised to be academically-minded full scholarships and that's it. Even when you factor in the exposure they get from playing in the SEC, the university still gets the better end of the day by far. These kids are putting in more than they are getting out. Cost of scholarship + we'll give a generous 100k salary (which the vast majority of students will never see) post-college =/= what the schools/NCAA are making off them. There is a lot of value in being a scholarship athlete for an SEC school in men's basketball, but they aren't getting equal value or anywhere near it. They have to rely on professional basketball for that, so they should be given plenty of time to figure that out.
There are some valid points there, but I will never see the room, board, tuition, swag, and extra benefits that student athletes get over any other scholarship student as a raw deal, I don't care how much money the schools are making. My employer doesn't get close to paying me my value to the bottom line, but it is what it is.
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Youngsta71701

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #40 on: April 11, 2017, 01:38:47 pm »

There is no good timing after the season is over. No way around it. These kids aren't getting paid to play for Arkansas or any other school, so it's important for them to gather all the resources they can for the next phase of their lives.
Kentucky says hi... ;D. LOL...I know I know, you were talking about Barford and Macon specifically. Carry on...
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Hawg Red

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #41 on: April 11, 2017, 01:40:55 pm »

There are some valid points there, but I will never see the room, board, tuition, swag, and extra benefits that student athletes get over any other scholarship student as a raw deal, I don't care how much money the schools are making. My employer doesn't get close to paying me my value to the bottom line, but it is what it is.

Definitely not a raw deal by any means. But still not a fair deal. The "slave" narrative is ridiculous. Having your education paid for in exchange for playing basketball is awesome, but we really much consider the socioeconomic backgrounds of the vast majority of high-major football and men's basketball players. The total potential value of that "free" education is pretty much lost of them because many do have the skills to make the most of it. That said, I'm sure there are a bunch of players that never thought they'd benefit from the academic experience of college that did and became a better person for it. But these kids aren't brought into these schools with the schools knowing they aren't great students or academic-minded, so to just offer them a "free" education is disingenuous, IMO. It's cheap.  I think student-athletes from revenue-generating programs should be paid in some form outside of the full cost of attendance. Just how to do that immediately slaps me as extremely complicated, and Title IX will definitely rear its head, but they need to figure something out. Players should at least be able to make money off their likeness, so if there is a market for your likeness, you can make money, and if not, you don't get money. That takes care of Title IX and lets the market put the money in the hands of those with true value.
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Hawg Red

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #42 on: April 11, 2017, 01:42:22 pm »

Kentucky says hi... ;D. LOL...I know I know, you were talking about Barford and Macon specifically. Carry on...

Kentucky is a completely clean program with 4.0 GPA athletes that do all of the work for their online classes.  ;)
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mbgrulz

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2017, 01:43:01 pm »

Do you think the cost of their scholarships are equal to the value they are bringing to the university? I'm not saying them getting scholarships have no value, but let's be honest and accept the fact that many of these kids aren't likely to do anything with that degree because of their upbringing. They are looking to play basketball. Major universities are making tens of millions each year off football and men's basketball players. There can't be any debate about this. Want to restrict stuff like this? Pay them and make them student-athlete-employees. Until then, the least they can do is let them explore their potential professional options.

This is coming from someone who took out student loans all throughout college and is living with that debt currently. Players like Barford and Macon enable other, non-athlete students to enjoy the University of Arkansas more and make it a more attractive school. They university is getting them for dirt cheap. You can't justify giving young men who were not raised to be academically-minded full scholarships and that's it. Even when you factor in the exposure they get from playing in the SEC, the university still gets the better end of the day by far. These kids are putting in more than they are getting out. Cost of scholarship + we'll give a generous 100k salary (which the vast majority of students will never see) post-college =/= what the schools/NCAA are making off them. There is a lot of value in being a scholarship athlete for an SEC school in men's basketball, but they aren't getting equal value or anywhere near it. They have to rely on professional basketball for that, so they should be given plenty of time to figure that out.
Nobody gets paid fairly on those terms. If you make your employer 1,000,000, you shouldn't expect but a small fraction of that in compensation. Thats life. And it won't keep them from trying to go pro. Nobody has ever turned down a raise.

Also, the whole idea that we should just accept the fact that these kids won't use their degree is complete BS. That's their own fault if that is true. How low are we willing to lower the dang bar for people? A college degree is a very big deal.
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Youngsta71701

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #44 on: April 11, 2017, 01:46:35 pm »

Kentucky is a completely clean program with 4.0 GPA athletes that do all of the work for their online classes.  ;)
Yes sir!! They would never pay players. They would just pay the mom and the brother. Then they would pay the player ;).
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Hawg Red

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #45 on: April 11, 2017, 02:13:15 pm »

Nobody gets paid fairly on those terms. If you make your employer 1,000,000, you shouldn't expect but a small fraction of that in compensation. Thats life. And it won't keep them from trying to go pro. Nobody has ever turned down a raise.


Then give them a small fraction rather than a microscopic fracture. Public universities aren't businesses, either. So if they are making a profit, it only stands to reason that more money should be invested into university and students (particularly the ones making that profit happen).

Also, the whole idea that we should just accept the fact that these kids won't use their degree is complete BS. That's their own fault if that is true. How low are we willing to lower the dang bar for people? A college degree is a very big deal.

Goes back to their socioeconomic upbringing and their schooling up until college. Can you really expect a kid from an inner city or rural area that comes from a single-parent home and likely received a subpar public school education to embrace getting a degree that they aren't equipped to truly obtain, let alone utilize post-college? Be realistic and try to look at things from a perspective less-advantaged than the one I'm assuming (could be dangerous, I know) you came from. "It's their ow fault." Is it really, though? Is it their fault they are born into those circumstances? I get that at some point people have to step up and survive for themselves, but these are kids we're talking about. 17-19 year old kids when they accept these scholarships. They aren't equipped to truly take advantage of what a kid from a better environment would. You can't expect the majority to be the expection, either. You can't expect most kids to have maturity beyond their years when they come from such modest beginnings. The education is there if they truly want it, but a large portion of them don't have the skills to capitalize and the universities know that and still make millions off them in return for something those kids won't be able to really apply. 
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Hawg Red

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #46 on: April 11, 2017, 02:32:44 pm »

A non-athlete student on an academic scholarship could, say, earn money from a Youtube channel or social media account and not compromise their standing at the school. How is this any different than allowing a student-athlete to make money off their likeness? Why can't a basketball or football make money for an advertisement or commercial or sponsorship independent of the college or NCAA if a normal scholarship-accepting student can?
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ShadowHawg

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #47 on: April 11, 2017, 02:48:47 pm »

Regular students can make well beyond tuition, books, and housing. No limits while contributing nothing to the bottom line of the school.

I am betting there are limitations on what an athlete can make while earning the school multi millions.
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azhog10

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #48 on: April 11, 2017, 02:48:58 pm »

A non-athlete student on an academic scholarship could, say, earn money from a Youtube channel or social media account and not compromise their standing at the school. How is this any different than allowing a student-athlete to make money off their likeness? Why can't a basketball or football make money for an advertisement or commercial or sponsorship independent of the college or NCAA if a normal scholarship-accepting student can?
True, but as soon as someone earns money from a youtube channel they are a "professional". Professionals in anything can still go to college. Shaq could still get his degrees once he became a professional. No one is saying these guys can't do commercials. They just can't do them, get paid, and play college basketball. But they could still go to school. So they have the same rights, opportunities to make money, and anything else as normal college students.
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Pillowhead Jackson

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #49 on: April 11, 2017, 02:51:37 pm »

I'd say Barford is 99.99% coming back.

I'd say Macon is 98% coming back.

I like this type of preciseness.  In fact I wish porked was our weatherman. 
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