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Author Topic: Our Defense Since 2002: Where are we headed now?  (Read 1711 times)

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bphi11ips

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Re: Our Defense Since 2002: Where are we headed now?
« Reply #50 on: April 11, 2017, 02:47:27 pm »

So, Bijhon Jackson can't be counted on? Eugene? Pulley? Not to mention Coley is good at his role, Ramirez has been solid, and Liddell is a decent but not great safety.

Depends on what you mean by count on.  It's time for Bijhon Jackson to step up, and it should be his time.  But it's Spring practice and the question involves proven returning upperclassman SEC starters.  Bijhon Jackson didn't start a game in 2016 and had 9 total tackles for the season. 

Dwayne Eugene started 6 games and had 44 tackles.  As a LB he should be making a lot of tackles.  Is he a proven starter a la Dre Greenlaw?  I don't think so at this point.

I'll give you Ryan Pulley and Josh Lidell.  Pulley started 12 games, had 47 tackles, and was our best cover corner last year. Lidell started 13 games and had 63 tackles.  But as you say, Lidell was decent, not great.  Neither Pulley nor Lidell have reached the level of Greenlaw, in my opinion.  That's not to say they aren't good football players, but this is the SEC West.

I'm not sure where Brandon Lewis came from.  We lost Wise, Ledbetter, Johnson, and Winston.  They were considered during preseason to be the strength of the defense.  Who knows what happened to the rushing defense last year?  We've heard all the theories - scheme, coaching, etc., but there's no question those seniors will be missed.

I've posted here since 2006 and usually find a way to predict and justify 10-2 or so.  However, I've never seen as many question marks on defense as I see this year.  Just calling it like I see it. 
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MuskogeeHogFan

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Re: Our Defense Since 2002: Where are we headed now?
« Reply #51 on: April 11, 2017, 04:33:56 pm »

Depends on what you mean by count on.  It's time for Bijhon Jackson to step up, and it should be his time.  But it's Spring practice and the question involves proven returning upperclassman SEC starters.  Bijhon Jackson didn't start a game in 2016 and had 9 total tackles for the season. 

Dwayne Eugene started 6 games and had 44 tackles.  As a LB he should be making a lot of tackles.  Is he a proven starter a la Dre Greenlaw?  I don't think so at this point.

I'll give you Ryan Pulley and Josh Lidell.  Pulley started 12 games, had 47 tackles, and was our best cover corner last year. Lidell started 13 games and had 63 tackles.  But as you say, Lidell was decent, not great.  Neither Pulley nor Lidell have reached the level of Greenlaw, in my opinion.  That's not to say they aren't good football players, but this is the SEC West.

I'm not sure where Brandon Lewis came from.  We lost Wise, Ledbetter, Johnson, and Winston.  They were considered during preseason to be the strength of the defense.  Who knows what happened to the rushing defense last year?  We've heard all the theories - scheme, coaching, etc., but there's no question those seniors will be missed.

I've posted here since 2006 and usually find a way to predict and justify 10-2 or so.  However, I've never seen as many question marks on defense as I see this year.  Just calling it like I see it. 

Not sure where you are getting your stats but if it is from the NCAA they really don't calculate Tackle Stats correctly. The way they list Sack stats is correct but for some reason they miss on the Tackles stats.

Every Solo Tackle should count as "1" while every Assisted Tackle should (just like Assisted Sacks as listed by the NCAA) count as 1/2 Tackle. When I quote Tackle Stats I just take it for granted that I have to correct the NCAA and list the stats in the proper way. That said, here is what I saw in looking at Tackle Stats for our DT's last year.

Player                Tackles     Asst Tackles     Total Tackles    TFL      Asst TFL     Total TFL       Sacks       Asst Sacks      Total Sacks
Agim                     8                19                  17.5           3             5               5.5            2.0             1.0                 2.5                                                   
Beanum                 6                15                  13.5           0             0               0.0            0.0             0.0                 0.0                 
Capps                   3                 9                    7.5           0             3               1.5            0.0             1.0                 0.5                                                   
B. Jackson             4                 5                    6.5           3             3               4.5            2.0             1.0                 2.5
T. Johnson             9                20                   19.0          3             4               5.0            2.0             0.0                 2.0
Ledbetter              17               32                   33.0          4             7               7.5            3.0             5.0                 5.5
Lewis                    2                 7                     5.5           1            3                2.5           0.0             0.5                 0.5
Ramsey                13                10                   18.0          4             3               5.5            2.0             1.0                 2.5
Roesler                  4                 3                     5.5           1             1               1.5           1.0             1.0                  1.5
T.J. Smith              1                 3                     2.5           1             1                1.5           0.0             0.0                  0.0
Watts                   0                 1                      .5            0             0                0.0           0.0             0.0                  0.0
Winston                8                 13                   14.5          1             2                2.5           1.0             2.0                   2.0
Wise                    21                28                   35.0          3             5                5.5           2.0             3.0                   3.5
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bphi11ips

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Re: Our Defense Since 2002: Where are we headed now?
« Reply #52 on: April 11, 2017, 04:46:52 pm »

My stats came from the Arkansas website.  It's hard to read the table you posted but I have the same trouble trying to create charts here. Formatting is not friendly for that purpose.

Not sure which stats you question. The only player I see we both list is Jackson.  Arkansas's official site also shows him with 4 unassisted and 5 assisted tackles.
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MuskogeeHogFan

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Re: Our Defense Since 2002: Where are we headed now?
« Reply #53 on: April 11, 2017, 04:58:54 pm »

My stats came from the Arkansas website.  It's hard to read the table you posted but I have the same trouble trying to create charts here. Formatting is not friendly for that purpose.

Not sure which stats you question. The only player I see we both list is Jackson.  Arkansas's official site also shows him with 4 unassisted and 5 assisted tackles.

Yeah and really that isn't how Tackles should be accounted for, as I explained. The NCAA (as an example) accounts for Sacks as follows: 3 sacks = 3 sacks, but if that player has 4 assisted sacks it only counts as 2 full sacks so that players total is 5 sacks.

There isn't any reason that Tackles and Assisted Tackles aren't accounted for in the same way except for it just being an accounting error.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 05:10:21 pm by MuskogeeHogFan »
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bennyl08

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Re: Our Defense Since 2002: Where are we headed now?
« Reply #54 on: April 11, 2017, 05:27:46 pm »

Depends on what you mean by count on.  It's time for Bijhon Jackson to step up, and it should be his time.  But it's Spring practice and the question involves proven returning upperclassman SEC starters.  Bijhon Jackson didn't start a game in 2016 and had 9 total tackles for the season. 

Looked it up and Jackson hasn't played as much as I thought he had. He was on the field a significant amount of time, especially last year, but yeah, he hasn't ever officially started a game.

[qutoe]Dwayne Eugene started 6 games and had 44 tackles.  As a LB he should be making a lot of tackles.  Is he a proven starter a la Dre Greenlaw?  I don't think so at this point.[/quote]

Through 6 starts last season (before the bowl game) here are Eugene's and Greenlaw's stats in no particular order

solo asst tot tfl sack ff fr int qbh
21  16    37 1.5  0   1  2  1    1
18  20    38 1    0    0  2  1    2

Greenlaw got the start in the bowl game over Eugene, but they both contributed the same to the box score. If Greenlaw is better (which him getting the start would suggest), it isn't by much.

Quote
I'll give you Ryan Pulley and Josh Lidell.  Pulley started 12 games, had 47 tackles, and was our best cover corner last year. Lidell started 13 games and had 63 tackles.  But as you say, Lidell was decent, not great.  Neither Pulley nor Lidell have reached the level of Greenlaw, in my opinion.  That's not to say they aren't good football players, but this is the SEC West.

What has Greenlaw done to have you so high on him? He is a solid LB, but not on the level of Spaight or Highsmith. He is better than a lot of the recent LB play that we've had, I'll give him that, but he doesn't look like a 3rd round or higher draft pick. Freshmen year he comes in, makes a lot of tackles, but a lot of that was due to him getting beat in coverage, but was able to keep up enough to make the tackle afterwards. His sophomore year, he didn't blow up the box score of lead the defense to be much better either. If you look at the 6 games to start vs the 6 he missed, defense gave up ~60 yards less per game with him than without, which is good. However, considering all 4 OOC games including 3 non P5 games were in that stretch, the data is a teensy bit skewed. If you look at the 4 power 5 games with him to start the season vs the 6 without, the defense gave up 100 yards less per game without him than they did with. Not remotely trying to say the defense is in fact better without him. Just that his play did not substantially improve the defense this season as far as I can see.

Honestly, I'd put Pulley's play this past season above what Greenlaw has done.

Quote
I'm not sure where Brandon Lewis came from.  We lost Wise, Ledbetter, Johnson, and Winston.  They were considered during preseason to be the strength of the defense.  Who knows what happened to the rushing defense last year?  We've heard all the theories - scheme, coaching, etc., but there's no question those seniors will be missed.

Lewis was a senior DL we lost which makes 5. The DL overall was considered to be the strength of the defense, that I would agree with. But when considering the individual players, only 2 of those were considered among our strengths on defense, Wise Jr and Ledbetter. They will be missed for sure, but the future is bright without them. Agim almost replicated Wise's numbers as a true freshmen. Ramsey in his first year playing was able to generate a lot of pressure in limited snaps. Taylor has all the skill set of a pass rusher and was forced to sit out last year. Bijhon in limited playing time was able to generate a lot of pressure up the middle. Their experience and leadership will be missed and we definitely take a hit as far as depth goes, but their production can definitely be surpassed.

Quote
I've posted here since 2006 and usually find a way to predict and justify 10-2 or so.  However, I've never seen as many question marks on defense as I see this year.  Just calling it like I see it.

The big question marks this year are about scheme and how well that will be implemented and then executed. Questions about talent this upcoming season as few as I've seen in a long while. I mean, 2012 had way more question marks on defense

2012, we had Bequette, Franklin, Nelson, Ford, Thomas, Madison, and Gatson all gone. The absolute core of the defense. Insert new DC and there were a ton of question marks about that defense.

You look at the defensive stats from last year, and nobody stands out as our big playmaker. They were all pretty well spread out among the players. When you have really young players making as many plays as the guys leaving, that strongly suggests things will be better in the future than the recent past.
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bennyl08

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Re: Our Defense Since 2002: Where are we headed now?
« Reply #55 on: April 11, 2017, 05:34:54 pm »

Yeah and really that isn't how Tackles should be accounted for, as I explained. The NCAA (as an example) accounts for Sacks as follows: 3 sacks = 3 sacks, but if that player has 4 assisted sacks it only counts as 2 full sacks so that players total is 5 sacks.

There isn't any reason that Tackles and Assisted Tackles aren't accounted for in the same way except for it just being an accounting error.

Why is it considered an error though? I've never seen anybody count assisted tackles as anything less than 1.0 when counting for total tackles. If the official school statistics don't do it, if the official NCAA stats don't do that, and heck, the NFL officially counts assisted tackles as 1 and not 0.5 as well, then is it really the "incorrect" way to do it?

Now, it is inconsistent to count differently with sacks vs tackles. However, I've never seen an assisted sacks stat listed, only ever the sack column. OTOH, official box scores always include columns to differentiate between assisted tackles, solo tackles, and then total (sometimes all 3 columns, sometimes only 2/3 such that the third can always be deduced).

Different way of going about it, but I'd hardly call it an incorrect or erroneous method.
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MuskogeeHogFan

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Re: Our Defense Since 2002: Where are we headed now?
« Reply #56 on: April 11, 2017, 05:38:25 pm »

Why is it considered an error though? I've never seen anybody count assisted tackles as anything less than 1.0 when counting for total tackles. If the official school statistics don't do it, if the official NCAA stats don't do that, and heck, the NFL officially counts assisted tackles as 1 and not 0.5 as well, then is it really the "incorrect" way to do it?

Now, it is inconsistent to count differently with sacks vs tackles. However, I've never seen an assisted sacks stat listed, only ever the sack column. OTOH, official box scores always include columns to differentiate between assisted tackles, solo tackles, and then total (sometimes all 3 columns, sometimes only 2/3 such that the third can always be deduced).

Different way of going about it, but I'd hardly call it an incorrect or erroneous method.

I have. If it is an assisted tackle common sense tells you that it wasn't a solo tackle and therefore shouldn't be accounted for the same as a solo tackle. Same with a TFL and Asst TFL. They used to be accounted for 1/2 if they were assisted in any area.

Here's the examples.

Sacks
http://stats.ncaa.org/team/31/stats?id=12424&year_stat_category_id=10984

Tackles
http://stats.ncaa.org/team/31/stats?id=12424&year_stat_category_id=10985

Inconsistent accounting.
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bphi11ips

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Re: Our Defense Since 2002: Where are we headed now?
« Reply #57 on: April 11, 2017, 05:41:47 pm »

Why is it considered an error though? I've never seen anybody count assisted tackles as anything less than 1.0 when counting for total tackles. If the official school statistics don't do it, if the official NCAA stats don't do that, and heck, the NFL officially counts assisted tackles as 1 and not 0.5 as well, then is it really the "incorrect" way to do it?

Now, it is inconsistent to count differently with sacks vs tackles. However, I've never seen an assisted sacks stat listed, only ever the sack column. OTOH, official box scores always include columns to differentiate between assisted tackles, solo tackles, and then total (sometimes all 3 columns, sometimes only 2/3 such that the third can always be deduced).

Different way of going about it, but I'd hardly call it an incorrect or erroneous method.

Have never kept stats in college but have in high school.  Total tackles are reported as the sum of unassisted and assisted tackles. I think at one time unassisted tackles were counted as a fraction based upon the number of players credited with an assist.
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MuskogeeHogFan

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Re: Our Defense Since 2002: Where are we headed now?
« Reply #58 on: April 11, 2017, 05:43:17 pm »

Have never kept stats in college but have in high school.  Total tackles are reported as the sum of unassisted and assisted tackles. I think at one time unassisted tackles were counted as a fraction based upon the number of players credited with an assist.

What if you had 3 guys in on a sack?
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bennyl08

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Re: Our Defense Since 2002: Where are we headed now?
« Reply #59 on: April 11, 2017, 05:56:11 pm »

I have. If it is an assisted tackle common sense tells you that it wasn't a solo tackle and therefore shouldn't be accounted for the same as a solo tackle. Same with a TFL and Asst TFL. They used to be accounted for 1/2 if they were assisted in any area.

Here's the examples.

Sacks
http://stats.ncaa.org/team/31/stats?id=12424&year_stat_category_id=10984

Tackles
http://stats.ncaa.org/team/31/stats?id=12424&year_stat_category_id=10985

Inconsistent accounting.

Maybe you should take a valium. :)

The official stats done by the schools, by the NCAA, by the NFL teams, and by the NFL all do it the same way. Solo and assisted tackles are accounted for separately while sacks and tfl's are not. At the end of the day, tackle statistics are pretty subjective no matter how you tally them. The guy who penetrates into the backfield to force the RB outside where the safety then gets a solo tackle for loss really deserves the credit for the play, the safety was just there to play cleanup and reap the rewards. In the box score, the safety is the only one who registers anything for that play. Which is why box scores can be a good indicator at times, but are far from an end all be all and aren't worth putting too much effort into making them more realistic or consistent.

Where have you seen the stats done your way?
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MuskogeeHogFan

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Re: Our Defense Since 2002: Where are we headed now?
« Reply #60 on: April 11, 2017, 06:00:46 pm »

Maybe you should take a valium. :)

The official stats done by the schools, by the NCAA, by the NFL teams, and by the NFL all do it the same way. Solo and assisted tackles are accounted for separately while sacks and tfl's are not. At the end of the day, tackle statistics are pretty subjective no matter how you tally them. The guy who penetrates into the backfield to force the RB outside where the safety then gets a solo tackle for loss really deserves the credit for the play, the safety was just there to play cleanup and reap the rewards. In the box score, the safety is the only one who registers anything for that play. Which is why box scores can be a good indicator at times, but are far from an end all be all and aren't worth putting too much effort into making them more realistic or consistent.

Where have you seen the stats done your way?

No, there is a right way and a wrong way. If a Tackle is Assisted, it should count for 1/2 of Tackle, otherwise it would be Solo, in the same way that Sacks are accounted for. The logic really isn't that difficult to understand. And by your example, one DE could chase the QB back towards the other DE where he gets the full credit for a sack. Bottom line, the entire line may have played a role, but only one player actually got the Sack. By the same token, if the DE's meet at the QB, that is an Assisted Sack for each. I know you get this, you just like to argue.
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bphi11ips

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Re: Our Defense Since 2002: Where are we headed now?
« Reply #61 on: April 11, 2017, 06:02:14 pm »

What if you had 3 guys in on a sack?

Can't remember a 3 but sacks are reported as 1/2's if more than one player makes the tackle. Same with tackles for loss. 
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Re: Our Defense Since 2002: Where are we headed now?
« Reply #62 on: April 11, 2017, 06:20:33 pm »

Can't remember a 3 but sacks are reported as 1/2's if more than one player makes the tackle. Same with tackles for loss. 

Totally agree. A Sack is a Sack, an Assisted Sack counts as 1/2. But again, look at those links I provided Benny above and you can see that the NCAA counts a Solo Tackle as 1 Tackle and every Assisted Tackle as 1 Tackle as well. As far as how they account for Total Tackles For Loss (Solo + Assisted), they do account for that correctly when you look at Team Tackles For Loss. Since they account for Sacks/Asst Sacks and TFL/Asst TFL correctly, I always assumed that they just had an accounting error in accounting for Solo Tackles/Asst Tackles.
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bennyl08

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Re: Our Defense Since 2002: Where are we headed now?
« Reply #63 on: April 11, 2017, 06:21:24 pm »

No, there is a right way and a wrong way. If a Tackle is Assisted, it should count for 1/2 of Tackle, otherwise it would be Solo, in the same way that Sacks are accounted for. The logic really isn't that difficult to understand. And by your example, one DE could chase the QB back towards the other DE where he gets the full credit for a sack. Bottom line, the entire line may have played a role, but only one player actually got the Sack. By the same token, if the DE's meet at the QB, that is an Assisted Sack for each. I know you get this, you just like to argue.

There really isn't. If a tackle is assisted, why not have it count for 1/3 if there are 3 players making the tackle? When one player is already in the process of making the sack and another comes in to make the assist, that assister did not do half the work there.

It is a convention that is used and nothing more. It is not inherently right or wrong. That convention leads to people tallying solo and assisted tackles separately but pooling tfl's and sacks together such that different methodologies are required to differentiate.

Not sure the need for the last part. There is a difference between getting what somebody says and disagreeing with what they are saying. You are adamant that your way of doing things is correct and that it is the only way it should be done, which I find to be arrogant and silly that you are so determined that everybody who officially keeps stats is wrong.

Also, you haven't said where you've seen others do it your way since it isn't the official way that individual schools, the NCAA, individual NFL teams, of the NFL do it. Is it done that way in the CFL or something? The official way that the main football teams do things is that solo and assisted tackles are tallied separately while sacks and tfl's are only given a single column and thus the convention is to give each player who was part of the sack/tfl 0.5 sacks. Which doesn't meet your way of making them be accounted differently since a player with 2 assisted sacks and a player with 1 solo are indistinguishable from one another in the box score while a player with 2 assisted tackles and a player with 1 solo tackles are distinguishable (as would be a player with 2 solo tackles and a player with 2 assisted tackles).
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bphi11ips

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Re: Our Defense Since 2002: Where are we headed now?
« Reply #64 on: April 11, 2017, 06:21:54 pm »


What has Greenlaw done to have you so high on him? He is a solid LB but not on the level of Spaight or Highsmith.


Seriously? 

First, where did Alonzo Highsmith enter this discussion?  Wouldn't we be fortunate to be LB U?  That guy is in a different stratosphere.  Spaight, like Greenlaw, came out of the blue, and only as a senior, thanks to his dedication to the weightroom, the film room, and the triangle scheme with Philon and Flowers funneling tackles his way.  Spaight is a perfect example of how passion, desire and dedication create professionals.  If anything, he should give us hope that we have a few like him in the wings now. 

Dre Greenlaw played in 13 games as a true freshman and was second on the team with 92 tackles, 7 behind Brooks Ellis. He was one of 3 LBs named to the All SEC Freshman team.  He is undersized but has great instincts and tackling skills.  His loss last year seriously hurt the defense. 

I have high hopes for all our players and certainly hope Eugene plays well. 

P.S. - De'Jon Harris was named All-SEC Freshman in 2016.  He proved in high school he's a football player and should do great things at Arkansas before he's done.
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bennyl08

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Re: Our Defense Since 2002: Where are we headed now?
« Reply #65 on: April 11, 2017, 07:07:23 pm »

Seriously? 

First, where did Alonzo Highsmith enter this discussion?  Wouldn't we be fortunate to be LB U?  That guy is in a different stratosphere.  Spaight, like Greenlaw, came out of the blue, and only as a senior, thanks to his dedication to the weightroom, the film room, and the triangle scheme with Philon and Flowers funneling tackles his way.  Spaight is a perfect example of how passion, desire and dedication create professionals.  If anything, he should give us hope that we have a few like him in the wings now. 

Dre Greenlaw played in 13 games as a true freshman and was second on the team with 92 tackles, 7 behind Brooks Ellis. He was one of 3 LBs named to the All SEC Freshman team.  He is undersized but has great instincts and tackling skills.  His loss last year seriously hurt the defense. 

I have high hopes for all our players and certainly hope Eugene plays well. 

P.S. - De'Jon Harris was named All-SEC Freshman in 2016.  He proved in high school he's a football player and should do great things at Arkansas before he's done.

I'm serious. Greenlaw is a tackling machine, but has yet to demonstrate he is a playmaking machine.

Alonzo Highsmith Jr was a LB for the hogs, who in 2011, registered 80 tackles, 12.5 tfl, 4.5 sacks, 1 interception, and returned a fumble 47 yards for a td. That is what I am describing as a playmaker. Tackles are good and important to have. However, typically the leading tackler in the sec and the nfl is going to be on one of the worst teams and has a lot of tackles due to a lot of opportunity to make them. The best players are the ones who go out and make plays, pushing the offense backwards, breaking up the pass rather than tackling after it is caught. Causing turnovers, that kind of thing.

Being LBU would be great. One of the things with Spaight vs Greenlaw kind of goes back to the dog biting when they are young. We've seen 18 starts with Greenlaw and have seen he isn't the type of LB who is going to be playing in the backfield a lot barring a pretty significant change. Martrell hadn't really set any precedence other than hearing stories of him in practice until his breakout, kind of similar to Knile in that regard.

My posts here shouldn't be read as a knock against Greenlaw in any way. Consistent tacklers are great to have at LB. However, when it comes to what level somebody is on, the ceiling is lower when they aren't making impact plays. Spaight and Highsmith Jr were both playmaking LB'ers. Jerry Franklin was good mix of tackling machine and playmaker. Ellis was a tackling machine but not a playmaker. Greenlaw so far has been a tackling machine, but hasn't exhibited playmaking traits yet.

Statistically, where did our defense suffer without him? In looking at yards given up and accounting for differences in schedules, I don't really see much of a change, and neither so in points allowed last year. If you were to ask me, yeah, I'd agree our defense is better without him, but that's a gut answer that I can't really back up in numbers.

P.S. Agreed. With zero starts, he not only put up 13th most tackles, but also registered 2 tfl, 1 sack, and a forced fumble (more than Greenlaw did).
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Re: Our Defense Since 2002: Where are we headed now?
« Reply #66 on: April 11, 2017, 07:20:28 pm »

P.S. Agreed. With zero starts, he not only put up 13th most tackles, but also registered 2 tfl, 1 sack, and a forced fumble (more than Greenlaw did).
Greenlaw was injured most of last year.  So I'm not sure how you can judge anything about him other than he earned a starting role as a freshman, and that's pretty good.  hopefully he is healthy all year because we are going to need him.
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Re: Our Defense Since 2002: Where are we headed now?
« Reply #67 on: April 11, 2017, 07:36:41 pm »

Greenlaw was injured most of last year.  So I'm not sure how you can judge anything about him other than he earned a starting role as a freshman, and that's pretty good.  hopefully he is healthy all year because we are going to need him.

I was going to mention that but felt that post was long enough as is.

Greenlaw was out 6 games, but started 7 of them. Harris didn't start any games and was a backup to Ellis playing in significant, but limited reps. He registered 25 defensive total tackles (37 overall, but led the team with 12 special teams tackles). Greenlaw had 42, so unless he was almost twice as productive in tackles per snap as Harris, Harris played significantly fewer snaps.

Snaps played is not a stat that one can readily find (it's out there but you have to pay...). However, I feel comfortable in the assumption that Harris played fewer snaps on defense than Greenlaw and Greenlaw wasn't injured when he was playing in contrast to Wise Jr whose stats were limited in season due to playing with a broken hand.
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Re: Our Defense Since 2002: Where are we headed now?
« Reply #68 on: April 11, 2017, 07:42:47 pm »

Compare our kids against what is typically perceived to be the "gold standard", the Alabama LB's last year in terms of being a "playmaker". Not tackles since that seems to matter less (for some reason), so let's look at PBU's for last season as well as INT's.

ARK                       PBU   INT   Int-TD
Ellis                         5      1        1
Eugene                    0      1        0
Greenlaw                  0      1        0
D. Harris                   0      0        0
Ala   
R. Anderson              3       1        1
Evans                      2       0        0
Foster                      2       0        0
Hamilton                   1       2        0
Holcombe                  1       0        0
T. Williams                 2       0        0
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Re: Our Defense Since 2002: Where are we headed now?
« Reply #69 on: April 11, 2017, 08:06:47 pm »

Compare our kids against what is typically perceived to be the "gold standard", the Alabama LB's last year in terms of being a "playmaker". Not tackles since that seems to matter less (for some reason), so let's look at PBU's for last season as well as INT's.

ARK        PBU  INT       TD  TFL  Sacks  FF  FR QBH
Ellis               5      1        1       7       1     0   1     3
Eugene       0      1        0       1       0     0    2    2
Greenlaw       0      1        0       1.5     0    0    2    1
D. Harris       0      0        0        2       1    1    0    0
Ala   
R. Anderson   3        1        1       19      9    0     0    8
Evans        2      0        0        4.5    4    1     1    6
Foster        2      0        0        13     5    0     0     8
Hamilton        1      2        0         9      2    1     0     1
Holcombe        1      0        0         1      0    0     0     0
T. Williams      2      0       0        16     9    2    1     12

FIFY

Not sure why one would deliberately leave off the impact plays that LB's are more likely to make and instead only focus on the passing game, but I saw the mistake and fixed it to more accurately reflect what the impact play comparison would be.

However, while Bama may be the gold standard, you can't compare the production of 3-4 LB'ers to 4-3 LB'ers. Williams for example is a glorified DE. 3-4 LB'ers have different responsibilities than 4-3 guys. Evans, Foster, Hamilton, and Holcombe would be the closest to having similar responsibilities.

As for the relative importance of tackles, which LB do you think is going to be harder for a team to replace, which one is going to be a higher draft pick?

Player A: 120 tackles, 3 tfl, 1 sack, 1 int, 2 pbu's, 2 fr's, 2 qbh's,
Player B: 85 tackles, 12 tfl, 5 sacks, 3 int's, 5 pbus', 2 ff's, 9 qbh's

Those extra 35 tackles for Player A are a lot more than the 25 extra "impact" plays for player B. So, if each of those things are weighted evenly, Player A should be the hands down better player. I'm guessing most would agree that Player B would be a bigger loss for a team, more important for the team's success, harder to replace, and would go higher in the draft.

EDIT: those numbers lined up nicely in my screen while posting but show up a bit wavy after submitting.
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Re: Our Defense Since 2002: Where are we headed now?
« Reply #70 on: April 12, 2017, 05:35:42 am »

FIFY

Not sure why one would deliberately leave off the impact plays that LB's are more likely to make and instead only focus on the passing game, but I saw the mistake and fixed it to more accurately reflect what the impact play comparison would be.

However, while Bama may be the gold standard, you can't compare the production of 3-4 LB'ers to 4-3 LB'ers. Williams for example is a glorified DE. 3-4 LB'ers have different responsibilities than 4-3 guys. Evans, Foster, Hamilton, and Holcombe would be the closest to having similar responsibilities.

As for the relative importance of tackles, which LB do you think is going to be harder for a team to replace, which one is going to be a higher draft pick?

Player A: 120 tackles, 3 tfl, 1 sack, 1 int, 2 pbu's, 2 fr's, 2 qbh's,
Player B: 85 tackles, 12 tfl, 5 sacks, 3 int's, 5 pbus', 2 ff's, 9 qbh's

Those extra 35 tackles for Player A are a lot more than the 25 extra "impact" plays for player B. So, if each of those things are weighted evenly, Player A should be the hands down better player. I'm guessing most would agree that Player B would be a bigger loss for a team, more important for the team's success, harder to replace, and would go higher in the draft.

EDIT: those numbers lined up nicely in my screen while posting but show up a bit wavy after submitting.

You know Benny, you didn't fix anything you just added some information and really screwed up the presentation of information. At least check to make sure that the data is aligned properly when you post it so it can be read. It was you, earlier in the thread who indicated that Tackles were of lesser importance in terms of the consideration of "impact" plays by a LB. I was just presenting other data that might be considered "impact" plays.

And while we are on that subject, if you go back up to my post you can see the number of PBU's made by Ellis last year. I know I have been critical of Ellis' ability to provide pass coverage and it has certainly seemed that he wasn't all that good in that area, but the fact that he had 5 PBU's all by himself this past season, as well as an INT and return for TD, might indicate that he was better than I thought.
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Re: Our Defense Since 2002: Where are we headed now?
« Reply #71 on: April 12, 2017, 06:34:04 am »

Compare our kids against what is typically perceived to be the "gold standard", the Alabama LB's last year in terms of being a "playmaker". Not tackles since that seems to matter less (for some reason), so let's look at PBU's for last season as well as INT's.

ARK        PBU  INT       TD  TFL  Sacks  FF  FR QBH
Ellis               5      1        1       7       1     0   1     3
Eugene       0      1        0       1       0     0    2    2
Greenlaw       0      1        0       1.5     0    0    2    1
D. Harris       0      0        0        2       1    1    0    0
Ala   
R. Anderson   3        1        1       19      9    0     0    8
Evans        2      0        0        4.5    4    1     1    6
Foster        2      0        0        13     5    0     0     8
Hamilton        1      2        0         9      2    1     0     1
Holcombe        1      0        0         1      0    0     0     0
T. Williams      2      0       0        16     9    2    1     12

Trying to make sense of charts and tables on Hogville makes my head hurt.  Easy peasy...  Put that crap in an excel table, copy that data into paint and save it as a jpeg.  Problem solved and you have a very readable table.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2017, 07:37:30 am by Pork Twain »
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Re: Our Defense Since 2002: Where are we headed now?
« Reply #72 on: April 12, 2017, 07:48:05 am »

Arkansas's defense should pretty good by midseason and very good next year.  If the offense can keep TCU and A&M's offense off the field for two thirds of those games, it could be a pretty good year.
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Re: Our Defense Since 2002: Where are we headed now?
« Reply #73 on: April 12, 2017, 07:58:05 am »

Arkansas's defense should pretty good by midseason and very good next year.  If the offense can keep TCU and A&M's offense off the field for two thirds of those games, it could be a pretty good year.
If any defense can keep any offense off of the field for 2/3 of a game, you should do pretty well.
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Re: Our Defense Since 2002: Where are we headed now?
« Reply #74 on: April 12, 2017, 08:13:56 am »

Arkansas's defense should pretty good by midseason and very good next year.  If the offense can keep TCU and A&M's offense off the field for two thirds of those games, it could be a pretty good year.

I'll just say this in looking at A&M for example.

A&M averaged 74.5 plays per game against the other 12 teams on their schedule aside from Arkansas.

Against Arkansas they only ran 59 plays, so we kept their offense off the field more than they were accustomed. It was a reduction in the number of plays by about 21%. That's all good.

But the problem was that on 16 of their plays they gained 504 of their 591 total yards (31.5 ypp). On their other 43 plays they gained 87 yards (2.02 ypp).

TCU Total Plays/Yds/YPP:       90/572/6.4
TCU Big Plays/Yds/YPP:          18/357/19.8
TCU Remainder Plays/Yds/YPP: 72/215/3.0     

It isn't just keeping their offense off the field, though that helps, it is also a matter of not giving up so many big plays. That is what killed us last year. And nothing is more demoralizing to a team (either the offense or defense) than to give up those big, chunk plays that just crush your spirit.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2017, 08:26:23 am by MuskogeeHogFan »
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bphi11ips

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Re: Our Defense Since 2002: Where are we headed now?
« Reply #75 on: April 12, 2017, 08:39:24 am »

I'll just say this in looking at A&M for example.

A&M averaged 74.5 plays per game against the other 12 teams on their schedule aside from Arkansas.

Against Arkansas they only ran 59 plays, so we kept their offense off the field more than they were accustomed. It was a reduction in the number of plays by about 21%. That's all good.

But the problem was that on 16 of their plays they gained 504 of their 591 total yards (31.5 ypp). On their other 43 plays they gained 87 yards (2.02 ypp).

TCU Total Plays/Yds/YPP:       90/572/6.4
TCU Big Plays/Yds/YPP:          18/357/19.8
TCU Remainder Plays/Yds/YPP: 72/215/3.0     

It isn't just keeping their offense off the field, though that helps, it is also a matter of not giving up so many big plays. That is what killed us last year. And nothing is more demoralizing to a team (either the offense or defense) than to give up those big, chunk plays that just crush your spirit.

No question.  Many of those big plays in Dallas came on the ground.

Players in the right position can limit many of those big plays.  That is something that can be accomplished sooner than later.  Control the ball and make the opponent move the chains, too. 
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MuskogeeHogFan

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Re: Our Defense Since 2002: Where are we headed now?
« Reply #76 on: April 12, 2017, 08:44:24 am »

No question.  Many of those big plays in Dallas came on the ground.

Players in the right position can limit many of those big plays.  That is something that can be accomplished sooner than later.  Control the ball and make the opponent move the chains, too. 

5 for 73 on the ground (and 4 of those for 61 yards were on 3rd down). The defense really was left on the field too long that game.
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bennyl08

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Re: Our Defense Since 2002: Where are we headed now?
« Reply #77 on: April 12, 2017, 11:56:07 am »

You know Benny, you didn't fix anything you just added some information and really screwed up the presentation of information. At least check to make sure that the data is aligned properly when you post it so it can be read. It was you, earlier in the thread who indicated that Tackles were of lesser importance in terms of the consideration of "impact" plays by a LB. I was just presenting other data that might be considered "impact" plays.

And while we are on that subject, if you go back up to my post you can see the number of PBU's made by Ellis last year. I know I have been critical of Ellis' ability to provide pass coverage and it has certainly seemed that he wasn't all that good in that area, but the fact that he had 5 PBU's all by himself this past season, as well as an INT and return for TD, might indicate that he was better than I thought.

First, the data was aligned properly when I hit post. 2, it's not like your post was properly aligned as it was quite wiggly as well and mine is still readable on my screen and I'm not going to go buy a 12" monitor or something just to check how posts look for somebody with a laptop or something.

Lastly, and most importantly, your data was incomplete. You admit that you were basing your post off of my earlier post on being a playmaker. However, in that post, I explicitly post stats of a playmaking variety and I double down by explicitly writing out in words examples of those impact plays. While you claim to be basing your reply on my post, you left out things like tfl's and sacks. First, those are the impact play that a LB is most likely to make, and heck, they even appear first as you read a box score from left to right. If a person didn't want to make a list with as many different statistics in it, they would likely include those two and maybe interceptions which appear next and then stop. That you skipped the most likely impact play for a LB and skipped the easiest way to make an abbreviated list is suspicious. I don't think it is a coincidence that doesn't represent the most likely plays for a LB and doesn't represent the easiest way to make an abbreviated list, does in this case represent cherry picked data where our LB's statistically are competitive with there's.

I'll finish with Ellis really impressing me during the combine. He had demonstrated good straight line speed during his games, so I wasn't surprised to see him run basically a 4.8 at the combine then a 4.7 at the proday. However, it always felt like in getting to the ball carrier, Ellis was always a step slow which I attributed to having tight hips. However, his 3 cone drill was phenomenal.
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tusked

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Re: Our Defense Since 2002: Where are we headed now?
« Reply #78 on: April 12, 2017, 01:18:00 pm »


As long as you run a defensive scheme where your #51 is covering a slot WR or split TE one on one, you're going to have problems on the D regardless of everything else.
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hawgmasta

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Re: Our Defense Since 2002: Where are we headed now?
« Reply #79 on: April 15, 2017, 02:49:31 am »

We saw in 2014 what three legitimate NFL caliber defensive players can do. Arkansas has always leaned heavily towards most of their elite talent being on offense. Most college teams do; because most of the best high school athletes play on the offensive side of the ball.

It seems the perennial top ten teams also have the elite NFL caliber players on defense i.e. Bama, Ohio St, Fl st.

In my opinion Arkansas always needs a solid offense (duh) but at LEAST 2-3 NFL caliber defensive starters to make some noise 8+ wins. I think we can all agree Agim has the skills and athleticism to play in the league it just remains to be seen if he will put it all together. Pulley seems to have the technical skills to be drafted, he's young and should only get better. There's a few other guys who may be athletic enough but I haven't seen them play enough against SEC competition to say that.

Thoughts? Do we have any other high end guys that can cause havoc like in 2014?

Because it really does only take a few elite guys on defense to make a drastic difference. One Trey Flowers, one Chris Houston, one Martrell Spaight. . . Give me something hogs!
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Re: Our Defense Since 2002: Where are we headed now?
« Reply #80 on: April 15, 2017, 08:28:22 am »

We saw in 2014 what three legitimate NFL caliber defensive players can do. Arkansas has always leaned heavily towards most of their elite talent being on offense. Most college teams do; because most of the best high school athletes play on the offensive side of the ball.

It seems the perennial top ten teams also have the elite NFL caliber players on defense i.e. Bama, Ohio St, Fl st.

In my opinion Arkansas always needs a solid offense (duh) but at LEAST 2-3 NFL caliber defensive starters to make some noise 8+ wins. I think we can all agree Agim has the skills and athleticism to play in the league it just remains to be seen if he will put it all together. Pulley seems to have the technical skills to be drafted, he's young and should only get better. There's a few other guys who may be athletic enough but I haven't seen them play enough against SEC competition to say that.

Thoughts? Do we have any other high end guys that can cause havoc like in 2014?

Because it really does only take a few elite guys on defense to make a drastic difference. One Trey Flowers, one Chris Houston, one Martrell Spaight. . . Give me something hogs!

I am not sure that I agree that the best athletes are always on the offensive side of the ball. I think it has more to do with the players football attitude, his football personality, than the level of athlete that he may be.

As for this defensive team as it relates to having players with NFL level potential, while there are a few that are obvious, there are several others who may not have emerged to this point. As an example, in Martrell Spaight's Junior year, would you have said that he was a likely NFL Draft Pick? Probably not. But he dedicated his effort, became a gym and film rat and his performance exploded during his Senior season. We have several kids on defense who could wind up having similar outcomes but so much of that is up to them.
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wildhogman

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Re: Our Defense Since 2002: Where are we headed now?
« Reply #81 on: April 15, 2017, 08:39:59 am »

We saw in 2014 what three legitimate NFL caliber defensive players can do. Arkansas has always leaned heavily towards most of their elite talent being on offense. Most college teams do; because most of the best high school athletes play on the offensive side of the ball.

It seems the perennial top ten teams also have the elite NFL caliber players on defense i.e. Bama, Ohio St, Fl st.

In my opinion Arkansas always needs a solid offense (duh) but at LEAST 2-3 NFL caliber defensive starters to make some noise 8+ wins. I think we can all agree Agim has the skills and athleticism to play in the league it just remains to be seen if he will put it all together. Pulley seems to have the technical skills to be drafted, he's young and should only get better. There's a few other guys who may be athletic enough but I haven't seen them play enough against SEC competition to say that.

Thoughts? Do we have any other high end guys that can cause havoc like in 2014?

Because it really does only take a few elite guys on defense to make a drastic difference. One Trey Flowers, one Chris Houston, one Martrell Spaight. . . Give me something hogs!
Not sure how long you been watching football. But it wasn't always the best went to the offense. Teams used to put the best athletes on defense.  There was a reason why even pro teams struggled to make over 30 points per game.  Now that seems to be the norm.  Fans used to love to see gladiator type games, bone crushing tackles, Clothes line tackles.  If they wasn't bleeding they just wasn't trying hard enough. People blame rule makers in NCAA and NFL for sissifying the game. I blame the fans.  The masses want to be entertained and right now scoring like a basketball game is just so much fun.
Ask Atwater why teams didn't throw the ball over the middle much during his time on the hill.  I still remember hearing the pads popping when he made hits. And I sat halfway up in the stadium, not ground level. If Atwater played now, he would be ejected from almost every game and maybe even put on trila with some of his hits. And he wasn't the only one. He just stood out being a safety
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Re: Our Defense Since 2002: Where are we headed now?
« Reply #82 on: April 15, 2017, 09:31:57 am »

Mine was mostly a playful post about notation. Muskogee has a habit of typing out things like points p/game or yards p/game.

If you read that out loud, it is saying points per per game or yards per per game rather than blank per game. It's combining the notation of ppg and ypg where the single "p" in the middle represents the per with the notations of points/game and yards/game where the "/" denotes per. Thus, blank p/game is saying blank per per game and it equivalent to saying atm machine (where atm stands for automatic teller machine) or a scuba device (where scuba stands for self contained underwater breathing apparatus).

Am I going to have to report you guys to the Department of Redundancy department?  ;D
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Re: Our Defense Since 2002: Where are we headed now?
« Reply #83 on: April 15, 2017, 03:02:12 pm »

Am I going to have to report you guys to the Department of Redundancy department?  ;D

You are going to have to report on the report sent to the Department of Redundancy department, said the department reporter.
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Re: Our Defense Since 2002: Where are we headed now?
« Reply #84 on: April 15, 2017, 03:39:12 pm »

We saw in 2014 what three legitimate NFL caliber defensive players can do. Arkansas has always leaned heavily towards most of their elite talent being on offense. Most college teams do; because most of the best high school athletes play on the offensive side of the ball.

It seems the perennial top ten teams also have the elite NFL caliber players on defense i.e. Bama, Ohio St, Fl st.

In my opinion Arkansas always needs a solid offense (duh) but at LEAST 2-3 NFL caliber defensive starters to make some noise 8+ wins. I think we can all agree Agim has the skills and athleticism to play in the league it just remains to be seen if he will put it all together. Pulley seems to have the technical skills to be drafted, he's young and should only get better. There's a few other guys who may be athletic enough but I haven't seen them play enough against SEC competition to say that.

Thoughts? Do we have any other high end guys that can cause havoc like in 2014?

Because it really does only take a few elite guys on defense to make a drastic difference. One Trey Flowers, one Chris Houston, one Martrell Spaight. . . Give me something hogs!

On the DL, Agim is pretty obviously going to be NFL caliber. That's the only one that I'd currently comfortably make a good wager on being drafted. However, I'd list Capps, Dean, Guidry, Jackson, Smith, and Watts as definitely potential to go to the NFL. Petrino in 2012 gave us a massive DL class that has largely bottlenecked the players below. Now that they have graduated, you'll notice that most of these listed are still underclassmen. Bijhon has the benefit of being a big nose tackle, but like Hodge before him, has struggled with conditioning to stay on the field a long time. Reports are that this year, that will change. We haven't heard those reports before on him and Hodge really turned things around his senior year, though Jackson is much more explosive, IMO.

At LB: Harris is the very obvious pick for the NFL. Again, wouldn't place any significant money on anybody else being drafted just yet, but again, that's not for a lack of potential. Greenlaw: He will likely finish here as a 4 year starter with a ton of tackles. However, from what he's shown so far, I'd rank Jerry Franklin above him and Franklin was surprisingly not drafted despite having a decent 2-3 year career in the NFL. Greenlaw still has 2 years to build his resume and I would not be shocked to see him drafted, but from what I've seen, I wouldn't be shocked if he just misses the cut. Eugene is in an interesting position only really coming into his own late in his college career. If he plays like he did last year, he has a chance of being drafted. If he starts all year and improves on his play last year, he'll have a good shot. Outside of those listed, we are mostly left with young and inexperienced players. However, Ramsey, Taylor, Fisher, AJB, and LaFrance I would say all definitely have the potential physically. Morgan I think would have been a 4* and a likely pick if he was bigger. As it is, I'm not surprised he was a walk-on, but I'm also not surprised that he is getting significant playing time with the starters this spring either. Him, Enlow, and Miller are all likely IMO to get scholarships sooner rather than later.

CB: Pulley and Toliver are both good guesses to be NFL draft picks. I think Dalton also has good potential based on HS but he hasn't had much time yet in college to show much of anything. Richardson could be a late round pick as well. Calloway and Curtis haven't made it to campus yet but they are both oozing with the physical potential.

S: I thought early on Liddell might, but he hasn't shown NFL level play and he's had plenty of chances to do so. Coley is good as a SS, and is SEC level, but not sure if he has NFL level athleticism. Ramirez has the potential, but is still young in his career and it appears the mental aspect/scheme has slowed him down at times. Micah Smith, Curl, and Brown all have the potential for the NFL IMO but are either not on campus yet or redshirted last season.

Draft potential and high round draft potential are two separate things. Players I personally think could be taken by the end of round 3 include Agim, Harris, Pulley, Taylor, Curtis, Calloway, Curl, and maybe Capps or Guidry. The top 3 are the most likely of that group as they have actually shown their play at the college level to a good degree.
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hawgmasta

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Re: Our Defense Since 2002: Where are we headed now?
« Reply #85 on: April 15, 2017, 11:37:30 pm »

Not sure how long you been watching football. But it wasn't always the best went to the offense. Teams used to put the best athletes on defense.  There was a reason why even pro teams struggled to make over 30 points per game.  Now that seems to be the norm.  Fans used to love to see gladiator type games, bone crushing tackles, Clothes line tackles.  If they wasn't bleeding they just wasn't trying hard enough. People blame rule makers in NCAA and NFL for sissifying the game. I blame the fans.  The masses want to be entertained and right now scoring like a basketball game is just so much fun.
Ask Atwater why teams didn't throw the ball over the middle much during his time on the hill.  I still remember hearing the pads popping when he made hits. And I sat halfway up in the stadium, not ground level. If Atwater played now, he would be ejected from almost every game and maybe even put on trila with some of his hits. And he wasn't the only one. He just stood out being a safety

I'm definitely referring to post say, 2000 era football. I don't think there's many high school teams out there who aren't focusing more on offense than defense. The ones that are winning more anyway. Of course you wil have great defensive players on lots of teams but with the evolution of the spread, 7 on 7, and concussion protocol most players with elite talent seemed to get pushed to the offensive side.

Now once you get to college or the NFL especially it evens out and probably favors defensive players in the NFL. As for modern recruits though offense is king.
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