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Author Topic: State of the Hogs: My take  (Read 3614 times)

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HognitiveDissonance

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State of the Hogs: My take
« on: March 30, 2017, 01:05:03 pm »

I've been very busy the last month and not much time to read or comment about the season and the usual
debates about the coach. This is long so enjoy or skip it.

In my mind, there are really two totally different discussions here.
1)Is CMA the guy to deliver Arkansas back to the top of the mountain?
2)Is CMA a guy who can be successful and end his career here?

For the first point, my immediate thought in 2011 was 'no'. And actually, that is the same thought I have today: 'no'.
At the time of hiring, there was a raucous press conference in Bud Walton and much excitement. I had a 'blah' reaction. Not bad, just not excited either.
Mike wasn't Nolan. People kinda hoped/dreamed it would be the same, but I knew it wasn't.
Mostly, Mike had never shown himself to be a dynamic recruiter. To get to the top, you have to be a guy who can recruit with the likes
of Kansas, KY, UNC, Duke, etc etc. Mike had some good teams, but they were put together differently...it wasn't from banging heads on the
recruiting trail with those blueblood programs.
Conversely, Nolan from 1985-1995 made this a DESTINATION program. Kids wanted to play for him. They wanted to leave their backyard and come
to Arkansas to play ball. Arkansas recruited all over the country in that period:
Kareem Reid: New York
Pat Bradley: Boston
Derek Hood: Kansas City
Glendon Alexander: Texas
Lee Wilson: Texas
Darnell Robinson: California
Todd Day: Memphis
Lee Mayberry: Tulsa
Oliver Miller: Fort Worth
Ron Huery: Memphis
Scotty Thurman: Louisiana

Augment those with the bigtime recruits and homeboys who Nolan convinced to stay at home, like:
Corliss Williamsom, Russellville

I think this kind of recruiting is what it takes to get 'to the top'.
I never saw Mike making Arkansas this kind of 'DESTINATION' program like Nolan did. Which is why I wasn't as excited as most seemed to be.
This is what Calipari has done at Memphis and KY. It's a destination program. Guys leave where they are and go there.

2011-2017 has now gone by. Nothing has changed my opinion on that, it's pretty much played out as expected. CMA hasn't been a dynamic recruiter, and
actually it's been disappointing beyond that in some ways in seeing two instate kids make the first team ALL-SEC team this year....for other SEC schools. Very depressing.


Now for the second point...can CMA be successful and accomplish enough to keep his job? Totally different discussion now, to me.
This year was critical. I know there are a few that will probably be opposed to CMA no matter what, and I know there are some who have always supported CMA, no matter what.
Throw out those extremists, and you're left with everyone else, the 'reasonable' people.
Polls suggested that most of these people thought it was critical for CMA to get back in the Dance this year to provide comfort and optimism for the future.
I was also squarely in this camp.
There was lots of talk about improved instate recruiting, and I too was encouraged by that.
But I also said on another level I wasn't too concerned about recruits 2-3 years from now...there needs to be a combination of 'now' and 'future' to feel good.
And I also wasn't picky...I said I would take a #12 seed and be happy. It was just important to get back in the Dance and be 'relevant'. Soon, like, this year.

After watching the postseason, doesn't it drive home so emphatically how 'March Madness' is EVERYTHING in college basketball? If you're not in it, you're irrelevent.
The whole country watches March Madness, even people who don't follow basketball fill out brackets and watch these games. Half the world follows this tournament.
So I always chuckle when people talk about winning this many games, or this and that, when we all should know: IT'S ALL ABOUT THE NCAA TOURNAMENT. PERIOD.
There really isn't another measuring stick. Tournaments made and performance in those tournaments are it. PERIOD.
When I think about this season, I'm thinking about the NCAA and playing Seton Hall and UNC. I'm also thinking some about the SECT. There is a totally different level of excitement for postseason basketball. Sure, the 26 wins are nice and it helps you get to that point...but if I'm boasting about anything, it's the Tournament stuff, not the 26 wins. The wins are meaningless in and of itself.

With those past comments, I am not an Indian giver.
I said a #12 seed would be fine in this context...and we got an 8. So for this year, yes, I'm doing cartwheels.
I thought the postseason was very strong...a terrific SECT including a dominating win over hometown Vandy, plus an NCAAT win over Seton Hall and scaring the crap out of UNC.
Based on that, and considering what CMA needed to do this year, I would give this season an 'A'. 26 wins, finals of SECT, and most importantly, NCAA appearance and good performance.
This, combined with guys coming in soon, gives me renewed optimism that CMA can be a guy who is 'successful' by Arkansas basketball standards i.e. Dancing most years. There is reason to think that Arkansas can be Dancing often in the coming years. That is critical to stay employed as the Arkansas coach.

Of course, we'll see what happens, but the most important goal has been accomplished this year by CMA; he has given the reasonable fans a reason to be hopeful. Mission accomplished.
I think most people feel pretty good, I do, the only way to lose that is to have a 'blah' season next year and raise doubts again.
Right now, I'm not seeing that, *assuming* everything plays out and no surprises with the roster. It *looks* on paper to be a team next year that's very similar in quality to this year's team.

To summarize, 1) I don't think CMA will ever recruit out of state well enough to win a title 2)he can do well, or very well, here and have a sustained career.

And I wouldn't rule out getting fortunate with a great crop of local kids who are good enough to go a long way. That's kinda what happened with the Triplets in the 70s, and of course Corliss was a Top 5 recruit nationally on the 1994 title team...and who knows, maybe these homeboys coming through the ranks now can be good enough. That's the formula CMA would seem to have to follow to be Final 4 and Title contending, and it's not imposible.
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Boss Hog in the Arkansas

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2017, 01:53:37 pm »

I've been very busy the last month and not much time to read or comment about the season and the usual
debates about the coach. This is long so enjoy or skip it.

In my mind, there are really two totally different discussions here.
1)Is CMA the guy to deliver Arkansas back to the top of the mountain?
2)Is CMA a guy who can be successful and end his career here?

For the first point, my immediate thought in 2011 was 'no'. And actually, that is the same thought I have today: 'no'.
At the time of hiring, there was a raucous press conference in Bud Walton and much excitement. I had a 'blah' reaction. Not bad, just not excited either.
Mike wasn't Nolan. People kinda hoped/dreamed it would be the same, but I knew it wasn't.
Mostly, Mike had never shown himself to be a dynamic recruiter. To get to the top, you have to be a guy who can recruit with the likes
of Kansas, KY, UNC, Duke, etc etc. Mike had some good teams, but they were put together differently...it wasn't from banging heads on the
recruiting trail with those blueblood programs.
Conversely, Nolan from 1985-1995 made this a DESTINATION program. Kids wanted to play for him. They wanted to leave their backyard and come
to Arkansas to play ball. Arkansas recruited all over the country in that period:
Kareem Reid: New York
Pat Bradley: Boston
Derek Hood: Kansas City
Glendon Alexander: Texas
Lee Wilson: Texas
Darnell Robinson: California
Todd Day: Memphis
Lee Mayberry: Tulsa
Oliver Miller: Fort Worth
Ron Huery: Memphis
Scotty Thurman: Louisiana

Augment those with the bigtime recruits and homeboys who Nolan convinced to stay at home, like:
Corliss Williamsom, Russellville

I think this kind of recruiting is what it takes to get 'to the top'.
I never saw Mike making Arkansas this kind of 'DESTINATION' program like Nolan did. Which is why I wasn't as excited as most seemed to be.
This is what Calipari has done at Memphis and KY. It's a destination program. Guys leave where they are and go there.

2011-2017 has now gone by. Nothing has changed my opinion on that, it's pretty much played out as expected. CMA hasn't been a dynamic recruiter, and
actually it's been disappointing beyond that in some ways in seeing two instate kids make the first team ALL-SEC team this year....for other SEC schools. Very depressing.


Now for the second point...can CMA be successful and accomplish enough to keep his job? Totally different discussion now, to me.
This year was critical. I know there are a few that will probably be opposed to CMA no matter what, and I know there are some who have always supported CMA, no matter what.
Throw out those extremists, and you're left with everyone else, the 'reasonable' people.
Polls suggested that most of these people thought it was critical for CMA to get back in the Dance this year to provide comfort and optimism for the future.
I was also squarely in this camp.
There was lots of talk about improved instate recruiting, and I too was encouraged by that.
But I also said on another level I wasn't too concerned about recruits 2-3 years from now...there needs to be a combination of 'now' and 'future' to feel good.
And I also wasn't picky...I said I would take a #12 seed and be happy. It was just important to get back in the Dance and be 'relevant'. Soon, like, this year.

After watching the postseason, doesn't it drive home so emphatically how 'March Madness' is EVERYTHING in college basketball? If you're not in it, you're irrelevent.
The whole country watches March Madness, even people who don't follow basketball fill out brackets and watch these games. Half the world follows this tournament.
So I always chuckle when people talk about winning this many games, or this and that, when we all should know: IT'S ALL ABOUT THE NCAA TOURNAMENT. PERIOD.
There really isn't another measuring stick. Tournaments made and performance in those tournaments are it. PERIOD.
When I think about this season, I'm thinking about the NCAA and playing Seton Hall and UNC. I'm also thinking some about the SECT. There is a totally different level of excitement for postseason basketball. Sure, the 26 wins are nice and it helps you get to that point...but if I'm boasting about anything, it's the Tournament stuff, not the 26 wins. The wins are meaningless in and of itself.

With those past comments, I am not an Indian giver.
I said a #12 seed would be fine in this context...and we got an 8. So for this year, yes, I'm doing cartwheels.
I thought the postseason was very strong...a terrific SECT including a dominating win over hometown Vandy, plus an NCAAT win over Seton Hall and scaring the crap out of UNC.
Based on that, and considering what CMA needed to do this year, I would give this season an 'A'. 26 wins, finals of SECT, and most importantly, NCAA appearance and good performance.
This, combined with guys coming in soon, gives me renewed optimism that CMA can be a guy who is 'successful' by Arkansas basketball standards i.e. Dancing most years. There is reason to think that Arkansas can be Dancing often in the coming years. That is critical to stay employed as the Arkansas coach.

Of course, we'll see what happens, but the most important goal has been accomplished this year by CMA; he has given the reasonable fans a reason to be hopeful. Mission accomplished.
I think most people feel pretty good, I do, the only way to lose that is to have a 'blah' season next year and raise doubts again.
Right now, I'm not seeing that, *assuming* everything plays out and no surprises with the roster. It *looks* on paper to be a team next year that's very similar in quality to this year's team.

To summarize, 1) I don't think CMA will ever recruit out of state well enough to win a title 2)he can do well, or very well, here and have a sustained career.

And I wouldn't rule out getting fortunate with a great crop of local kids who are good enough to go a long way. That's kinda what happened with the Triplets in the 70s, and of course Corliss was a Top 5 recruit nationally on the 1994 title team...and who knows, maybe these homeboys coming through the ranks now can be good enough. That's the formula CMA would seem to have to follow to be Final 4 and Title contending, and it's not imposible.
We call those fair weather fans. The ones who show high levels of support when things are going good and bemoan our programs when things aren't going so well. Good ol fair weather fan, a couple notches above a bandwagon fan
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Hawg Red

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2017, 01:59:52 pm »

I would have agreed with you about Anderson not being able to recruit well enough to win a title, but now I'm watching South Carolina on the precipice of a national title. Martin definitely has some talent on that team, but nothing that Anderson doesn't figure to have in the coming years between Gafford, Perry, and a few others. Think about that for a minute. If a coach has pretty good talent that has bought into the mission and they have enough luck go their way (this cannot be overstated enough, and for EVERY program), he can win it all. Look at how close Butler came....twice. This season in college basketball, not just Arkansas' season (but it's definitely the biggest factor), has really changed my outlook on things and how I should manage my expectations.
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phadedhawg

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2017, 02:12:06 pm »

I don't expect Anderson to compete with Kentucky's "one and done" method of building a team.  But recent results show it's a foolish endeavor.  He doesn't need to sign those types of kids to compete for championships. 
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Hawg Red

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2017, 02:19:22 pm »

I don't expect Anderson to compete with Kentucky's "one and done" method of building a team.  But recent results show it's a foolish endeavor.  He doesn't need to sign those types of kids to compete for championships.

Yeah, I wouldn't want him to build a team that way. I don't know why Calipari does.
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#1 STUNNA

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2017, 02:28:20 pm »

not sure if recruiting will ever be amazing.. but the up coming class proves that we might be able to.
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Pig in the Pokey

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2017, 02:35:21 pm »

We DO have the instate talent to win a title in basketball again. While Nolan did recruit nationally, it was mostly Tulsa to Memphis with Arkansas and some Texas/La. That's really regionally and Mike can do that. This team was a very good team and if it had KeVaughn and Benedict we could have won a title this year. With UNC (who we should have beaten without those 2), SC, Gonzaga, and Oregon as this years final four, we could have beaten SC again, and would stand a chance against Gonzaga and Oregon. So, in my opinion, Mike has a chance if he keeps Arkansas recruits home and works the nearby states decently. And it looks like he has it turned around in that regard.
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jjdlc

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2017, 02:36:30 pm »

Yeah, I wouldn't want him to build a team that way. I don't know why Calipari does.

Agreed, outside of dominating an SEC at a time when most of the SEC has been fairly weak, it hasn't really produced results outside what past Kentucky coaches have been able to produce.
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bkjbearcat

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2017, 03:08:39 pm »

We DO have the instate talent to win a title in basketball again. While Nolan did recruit nationally, it was mostly Tulsa to Memphis with Arkansas and some Texas/La. That's really regionally and Mike can do that. This team was a very good team and if it had KeVaughn and Benedict we could have won a title this year. With UNC (who we should have beaten without those 2), SC, Gonzaga, and Oregon as this years final four, we could have beaten SC again, and would stand a chance against Gonzaga and Oregon. So, in my opinion, Mike has a chance if he keeps Arkansas recruits home and works the nearby states decently. And it looks like he has it turned around in that regard.

So why haven't MA and staff done that if they can? I still buy into what a lot of pundits say about MA and staff when it comes to recruiting. Their lazy.

I always thought NCAA D1 basketball was more national when it came to recruiting. While I don't expect five star kids from California or PA to come here, why not a high four from St. Louis, Kansas City, Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Wichita, Dallas Ect? Seems like MA can't get those guys, or is not trying to get them. Just my two cents.
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The_Iceman

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2017, 03:32:57 pm »

I would have agreed with you about Anderson not being able to recruit well enough to win a title, but now I'm watching South Carolina on the precipice of a national title. Martin definitely has some talent on that team, but nothing that Anderson doesn't figure to have in the coming years between Gafford, Perry, and a few others. Think about that for a minute. If a coach has pretty good talent that has bought into the mission and they have enough luck go their way (this cannot be overstated enough, and for EVERY program), he can win it all. Look at how close Butler came....twice. This season in college basketball, not just Arkansas' season (but it's definitely the biggest factor), has really changed my outlook on things and how I should manage my expectations.

Top 4 players...

PJ Dozier: 5-star (Top 20, McD AA)
Thornwell: 4-star (Top 50)
Silva: 4-star
Notice: 3-star (Senior)

Getting 4-star and above players, and keeping them, seems to be more important than one and dones.
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Hog Fan...DOH!

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2017, 03:40:55 pm »

So why haven't MA and staff done that if they can? I still buy into what a lot of pundits say about MA and staff when it comes to recruiting. Their lazy.

I always thought NCAA D1 basketball was more national when it came to recruiting. While I don't expect five star kids from California or PA to come here, why not a high four from St. Louis, Kansas City, Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Wichita, Dallas Ect? Seems like MA can't get those guys, or is not trying to get them. Just my two cents.

I'll give you a 2-cent refund. 

If you were 17 years old (and maybe you are), a 4-star recruit, and born in St. Louis, MO, why would you go to Arkansas vs. Missouri vs. Kentucky vs. Michigan State vs. Kansas?  Because you love the Hogs? 

It's a chicken/egg thing.  Personally, I think the chicken grew up, laid an egg, then turned into a nice chicken.

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PonderinHog

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2017, 03:52:12 pm »

Yeah, I wouldn't want him to build a team that way. I don't know why Calipari does.
You take those guys when you can get them, on top of the four year guys.  I don't want a full roster of one-and-dones either, but when an difference maker or two come along, you take them.  That's when we can go deep into March and early April.
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Hawg Red

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2017, 04:17:04 pm »

You take those guys when you can get them, on top of the four year guys.  I don't want a full roster of one-and-dones either, but when an difference maker or two come along, you take them.  That's when we can go deep into March and early April.

If he could the top 2 guys he could get each year and spent the rest of the spots on top 100-150 guys (that would be lining up to play for Kentucky), he'd have probably 3 NCs by now. Then again, I'm guessing he didn't think Tyler Ulis would go pro after his sophomore year, either, so there's that. But he just can't build quality depth consistently enough to go as far as that fanbase wants each year.
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PonderinHog

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2017, 05:02:19 pm »

If he could the top 2 guys he could get each year and spent the rest of the spots on top 100-150 guys (that would be lining up to play for Kentucky), he'd have probably 3 NCs by now. Then again, I'm guessing he didn't think Tyler Ulis would go pro after his sophomore year, either, so there's that. But he just can't build quality depth consistently enough to go as far as that fanbase wants each year.
He's created a monster that will eventually lead to his undoing.  Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.  You can't really blame the players.  Who's gonna turn down millions to play in the NBA, just to make somebody like Calipari and BBN happy?
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rude1

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2017, 06:23:16 pm »

Yeah, I wouldn't want him to build a team that way. I don't know why Calipari does.
Has no choice, joined at the hip to World Wide Wes that has turned KY into a basketball factory that is built to use the KY brand for the exposure to get these young men to the NBA after their one season, and the only way this will work is that you have spots every year to take on that next list of future NBA players looking for their one year of exposure, which means you are turning the top of your roster over yearly.
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HognitiveDissonance

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2017, 06:26:15 pm »

I would have agreed with you about Anderson not being able to recruit well enough to win a title, but now I'm watching South Carolina on the precipice of a national title. Martin definitely has some talent on that team, but nothing that Anderson doesn't figure to have in the coming years between Gafford, Perry, and a few others. Think about that for a minute. If a coach has pretty good talent that has bought into the mission and they have enough luck go their way (this cannot be overstated enough, and for EVERY program), he can win it all. Look at how close Butler came....twice. This season in college basketball, not just Arkansas' season (but it's definitely the biggest factor), has really changed my outlook on things and how I should manage my expectations.
I have made several comments about the 'man-love' some were showing Frank Martin earlier in the year. In my mind, he hadn't shown enough to warrant the kind of love he was getting, if you look at his resume, although a solid coach.

Now that's he made the Final 4 with this good but not great S Car team, I'll have to eat some crow on that. Yes, now he has shown something that's worthy of praise. You make the Final 4 as a coach, with any roster, you've really elevated yourself in the coaching fraternity.
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HognitiveDissonance

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2017, 06:30:34 pm »

Yeah, I wouldn't want him to build a team that way. I don't know why Calipari does.
Call it great salesmanship or cheating, whatever, but the bottom line is Calipari can get those kinds of players.
And no one is going to turn down a Karl-Anthony Towns, Malik Monk, DeAaron Fox, etc if they can get them.
He can, so then he has to figure out how to use them.
It's a 'problem' only he and maybe Duke, KS, UNC has to solve. Nobody else can get too many 1-and-done caliber players.
But they would all take them, trust me.
So in my mind, Calipari isn't purposefully trying to build a team that way, he's simply recruiting the best players he can get, like everyone else, then doing what he can with them.
Think about it...let's say he's already signed Monk and Fox who are Top 15 players....then he's going to say, now I'm going after Top 150 guys to balance, so 'no, you other Top 20 guys who want to commit, I'm not going to take you.' Nobody is going to do that.
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Hawg Red

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2017, 07:04:18 pm »

Call it great salesmanship or cheating, whatever, but the bottom line is Calipari can get those kinds of players.
And no one is going to turn down a Karl-Anthony Towns, Malik Monk, DeAaron Fox, etc if they can get them.
He can, so then he has to figure out how to use them.
It's a 'problem' only he and maybe Duke, KS, UNC has to solve. Nobody else can get too many 1-and-done caliber players.
But they would all take them, trust me.
So in my mind, Calipari isn't purposefully trying to build a team that way, he's simply recruiting the best players he can get, like everyone else, then doing what he can with them.
Think about it...let's say he's already signed Monk and Fox who are Top 15 players....then he's going to say, now I'm going after Top 150 guys to balance, so 'no, you other Top 20 guys who want to commit, I'm not going to take you.' Nobody is going to do that.

I disagree. I think Coach K, Self, and Roy Williams all recruit guys that would stand out at other programs that they know will be in their program for 3-4 years. Calipari doesn't really do that. It's poor roster building. There really can be too much of a good thing. Calipari mostly recruits guys that he knows are only in college for a season. Other coaches don't. They are trying to get maybe 1-2 per year that are one and done and focusing the other spots on guys that are really effing good but not one and done good. And they build depth that way.
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sevenof400

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2017, 07:04:29 pm »

I have made several comments about the 'man-love' some were showing Frank Martin earlier in the year. In my mind, he hadn't shown enough to warrant the kind of love he was getting, if you look at his resume, although a solid coach.

Now that's he made the Final 4 with this good but not great S Car team, I'll have to eat some crow on that. Yes, now he has shown something that's worthy of praise. You make the Final 4 as a coach, with any roster, you've really elevated yourself in the coaching fraternity.

And that's where Mike Anderson falls short. 

If you look at the numbers on how this season finished, a Mike Anderson coached team at Arkansas still only has a round of 32 loss as its best finish to a season and replace Wofford with Seton Hall with respect to the defeated opponent in the NCAA. 

There just is not the likelihood of enough upside to Mike Anderson to warrant investing more seasons in him. 
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rude1

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2017, 07:12:48 pm »

And that's where Mike Anderson falls short. 

If you look at the numbers on how this season finished, a Mike Anderson coached team at Arkansas still only has a round of 32 loss as its best finish to a season and replace Wofford with Seton Hall with respect to the defeated opponent in the NCAA. 

There just is not the likelihood of enough upside to Mike Anderson to warrant investing more seasons in him. 
Do you ever give it a rest? What was the likelihood of Frank Marting taking SC to the final four after the way their season was trending down at the end? Tourney advancing has a lot to do with your seeding and match ups. SC was given a 7 seed then played close to home, giving them an advantage. We have gotten no favors from the committee, always staring at NC as our next round opponent, though it almost backfired this year if it hadn't been for some favorable officiating for NC.
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HogBreath

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2017, 07:27:12 pm »

And that's where Mike Anderson falls short. 

If you look at the numbers on how this season finished, a Mike Anderson coached team at Arkansas still only has a round of 32 loss as its best finish to a season and replace Wofford with Seton Hall with respect to the defeated opponent in the NCAA. 

There just is not the likelihood of enough upside to Mike Anderson to warrant investing more seasons in him. 
Well yeah, if you just ignore the royal screw job the refs gave us against North Carolina. 

Our guys got rooked that day.  We should have been in the sweet 16.  Wouldn't matter if Adolph Rupp is your coach when you're playing 5 against 8.
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HOGINTENNESSEE

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2017, 08:10:16 pm »

And that's where Mike Anderson falls short. 

If you look at the numbers on how this season finished, a Mike Anderson coached team at Arkansas still only has a round of 32 loss as its best finish to a season and replace Wofford with Seton Hall with respect to the defeated opponent in the NCAA. 

There just is not the likelihood of enough upside to Mike Anderson to warrant investing more seasons in him. 

I'm sorry didnt you try to convince us that 25 wins wouldn't even get us in the tournament?

You are an idiot
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HognitiveDissonance

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2017, 08:41:38 pm »

And that's where Mike Anderson falls short. 

If you look at the numbers on how this season finished, a Mike Anderson coached team at Arkansas still only has a round of 32 loss as its best finish to a season and replace Wofford with Seton Hall with respect to the defeated opponent in the NCAA. 

There just is not the likelihood of enough upside to Mike Anderson to warrant investing more seasons in him.
You are factually correct. Round of 32 is best we've done.
But I don't think you have to be a CMA-lackey or Hog homer to acknowledge that we've had some poor luck with the NCAA draw. Can we at least play somebody besides North Carolina? I've pondered that lately. I wonder how this Hog team would have done if having to face anybody else in the second round besides UNC. I'd much rather play Gonzaga.
But you have to give it up to S Car. They bounced Duke, who was very hot. It pains me, but we didn't finish UNC off when we had the chance, and S Car finished Duke off. That hurts. We could have had FOUR sec teams in the Sweet 16.
Yes, there were a couple of questionable calls late in the game, but we also just didn't play well enough down the stretch. We just didn't get the job done.
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sevenof400

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2017, 02:39:23 pm »

I'm sorry didnt you try to convince us that 25 wins wouldn't even get us in the tournament?

You are an idiot

Given that you have misrepresented what I said earlier, your conclusion certainly applies to you. 

Enjoy!
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sevenof400

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2017, 02:52:24 pm »

You are factually correct. Round of 32 is best we've done.
But I don't think you have to be a CMA-lackey or Hog homer to acknowledge that we've had some poor luck with the NCAA draw. Can we at least play somebody besides North Carolina? I've pondered that lately. I wonder how this Hog team would have done if having to face anybody else in the second round besides UNC. I'd much rather play Gonzaga.
But you have to give it up to S Car. They bounced Duke, who was very hot. It pains me, but we didn't finish UNC off when we had the chance, and S Car finished Duke off. That hurts. We could have had FOUR sec teams in the Sweet 16.
Yes, there were a couple of questionable calls late in the game, but we also just didn't play well enough down the stretch. We just didn't get the job done.

Certainly fair points here, and you are correct in that the tourney draw can work for you - or against you.  Arkansas is certainly owed some new matchups by the committee who really should have done more to separate the SEC team into different regions this year. 

In the end, I'd like to see a Mike Anderson team do what Frank Martin did this year at South Carolina and finally punch through the mediocrity.   
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Hogs run wild

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2017, 04:34:03 pm »

I don't expect Anderson to compete with Kentucky's "one and done" method of building a team.  But recent results show it's a foolish endeavor.  He doesn't need to sign those types of kids to compete for championships. 
disagree with you here. if we get a good team, who is able to build chemistry over a few years, our experience should be able to compete with kentucky. we had a good team a few years ago and beat them. this year, our team had a lot of new faces.
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The_Iceman

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2017, 04:43:02 pm »

Certainly fair points here, and you are correct in that the tourney draw can work for you - or against you.  Arkansas is certainly owed some new matchups by the committee who really should have done more to separate the SEC team into different regions this year. 

In the end, I'd like to see a Mike Anderson team do what Frank Martin did this year at South Carolina and finally punch through the mediocrity.

I would love to have seen Arkansas make it to the Sweet 16 or further. Problem is, the NCAA Tournament is all about matchups...and we have gotten terrible draws having to face UNC.

Also keep in mind, South Carolina won't even make the tournament next season. May not even finish in the top half of the SEC.

Thornwell and Notice are gone. Look what they were this year without Thornwell.
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Hawg Red

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2017, 04:56:13 pm »

I would love to have seen Arkansas make it to the Sweet 16 or further. Problem is, the NCAA Tournament is all about matchups...and we have gotten terrible draws having to face UNC.

Also keep in mind, South Carolina won't even make the tournament next season. May not even finish in the top half of the SEC.

Thornwell and Notice are gone. Look what they were this year without Thornwell.

I don't know, man. Dozier and Silva back as juniors with some of their freshmen that stepped up late in the season....I could see them getting into the field. They could still snag a period stud that is all of a sudden available, too, with this Final 4 run.
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HawgHeadCheese

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2017, 04:59:11 pm »

I would have agreed with you about Anderson not being able to recruit well enough to win a title, but now I'm watching South Carolina on the precipice of a national title. Martin definitely has some talent on that team, but nothing that Anderson doesn't figure to have in the coming years between Gafford, Perry, and a few others. Think about that for a minute. If a coach has pretty good talent that has bought into the mission and they have enough luck go their way (this cannot be overstated enough, and for EVERY program), he can win it all. Look at how close Butler came....twice. This season in college basketball, not just Arkansas' season (but it's definitely the biggest factor), has really changed my outlook on things and how I should manage my expectations.

I honestly think we have more overall talent on our team than South Carolina. The only thing they have we dont is a go to superstar.  A kid who regardless of how the night goes will get his regardless.  The more I watch college bball I realize the way a player fits into your system means more than how good a recruiting class is. Teams like Gonzaga,  Butler,  Witchita St.,and South Carolina are proving that. College sports are all about match ups. North Carolina looked far more elite on paper than we did and were a lot bigger but our style of play made up for a big gap in talent.
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phadedhawg

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2017, 05:42:54 pm »

I honestly think we have more overall talent on our team than South Carolina. The only thing they have we dont is a go to superstar.  A kid who regardless of how the night goes will get his regardless.  The more I watch college bball I realize the way a player fits into your system means more than how good a recruiting class is. Teams like Gonzaga,  Butler,  Witchita St.,and South Carolina are proving that. College sports are all about match ups. North Carolina looked far more elite on paper than we did and were a lot bigger but our style of play made up for a big gap in talent.

Macon had spurts where he looked like that kind of player that could always get his.  If he comes back next year he may be our man who can get points when nothing is falling for us. 

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Rome26

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2017, 06:14:37 pm »

I don't know, man. Dozier and Silva back as juniors with some of their freshmen that stepped up late in the season....I could see them getting into the field. They could still snag a period stud that is all of a sudden available, too, with this Final 4 run.

Dozier isn't a lock to return. He's projected to go in the second round. I'm not sure USC would be more than a NIT team if he comes back anyway unless they get Zion Williamson.
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daBoar

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2017, 07:39:37 pm »

I honestly think we have more overall talent on our team than South Carolina.
I honestly think we have more overall talent on our team than South Carolina.
Didn't we beat them at their place?
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Hawg Red

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2017, 08:05:03 pm »

Dozier isn't a lock to return. He's projected to go in the second round. I'm not sure USC would be more than a NIT team if he comes back anyway unless they get Zion Williamson.

He's projected as a possible draft pick, not a second round lock.

Again, if Dozier and Silva are back to go with Felder and the kid from Estonia, and the 4-star combo guard they have coming in, I don't see how that isn't a team that is contending for an NCAA tournament birth. Dozier and Silva could both be All-SEC players next year. That goes a long way.

And Zion Williamson is a 2018 recruit, so he isn't even a possibility there.
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rude1

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2017, 08:27:58 pm »

He's projected as a possible draft pick, not a second round lock.

Again, if Dozier and Silva are back to go with Felder and the kid from Estonia, and the 4-star combo guard they have coming in, I don't see how that isn't a team that is contending for an NCAA tournament birth. Dozier and Silva could both be All-SEC players next year. That goes a long way.

And Zion Williamson is a 2018 recruit, so he isn't even a possibility there.
Thornwell is a POTY type player, the best in the conference. We had one of  those and when he left, we quickly made a nose dive. I don't see enough on SC roster to overcome that hit alone, unless there is an elite freshman who comes on in the last hour.
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Hawg Red

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #34 on: March 31, 2017, 08:34:42 pm »

Thornwell is a POTY type player, the best in the conference. We had one of  those and when he left, we quickly made a nose dive. I don't see enough on SC roster to overcome that hit alone, unless there is an elite freshman who comes on in the last hour.

Except you are the leaving the part out where Michael Qualls also left, aren't you?

If Dozier ends up leaving, too, yes, they will take a big step back. But he's an All-SEC type of player. Chris Silva could be one, too. If SC suffers the kind of losses that we did after 2015, yeah, they'll be hurting. But if they don't, they should be in contention for an NCAA tournament birth. Beyond Dozier and Silva, they have players like Felder and Kotsar also stepping up big deep into the NCAA tournament. Let's quit pretending they have nothing coming back. They don't need an elite player to come in to return the NCAA tournament next season if everyone is back.
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hogwood

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #35 on: March 31, 2017, 09:31:11 pm »

We DO have the instate talent to win a title in basketball again. While Nolan did recruit nationally, it was mostly Tulsa to Memphis with Arkansas and some Texas/La. That's really regionally and Mike can do that. This team was a very good team and if it had KeVaughn and Benedict we could have won a title this year. With UNC (who we should have beaten without those 2), SC, Gonzaga, and Oregon as this years final four, we could have beaten SC again, and would stand a chance against Gonzaga and Oregon. So, in my opinion, Mike has a chance if he keeps Arkansas recruits home and works the nearby states decently. And it looks like he has it turned around in that regard.

My thoughts exactly. It is within the realms of possibility to me now.
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hogwood

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #36 on: March 31, 2017, 09:42:56 pm »

So why haven't MA and staff done that if they can? I still buy into what a lot of pundits say about MA and staff when it comes to recruiting. Their lazy.

I always thought NCAA D1 basketball was more national when it came to recruiting. While I don't expect five star kids from California or PA to come here, why not a high four from St. Louis, Kansas City, Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Wichita, Dallas Ect? Seems like MA can't get those guys, or is not trying to get them. Just my two cents.

Look at our roster - Mike does recruit regionally...

Barford - Jackson, TN
Bailey - Campti, LA
Cook - St. Louis, MO
Jones - Birmingham, AL

Pretty much every year there is someone on our team from those 4 states, plus TX.
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TexArkHogFan

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #37 on: April 01, 2017, 08:26:11 am »

When the NCAA comes down on North Carolina and they have to vacate all their wins, does that make us a Sweet Sixteen team?
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bcdeputy

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #38 on: April 01, 2017, 09:28:36 am »

We call those fair weather fans. The ones who show high levels of support when things are going good and bemoan our programs when things aren't going so well. Good ol fair weather fan, a couple notches above a bandwagon fan

I just love it when people on a message board think they can tell everyone what a "real" fan is...  what a total joke!!!!

Root for the Razorbacks the exact same way that I do, or your not a "real fan" like I am! 

So, what exactly is a "real fan"?  Is it the fan that blindly follows whomever is in charge and praises everything the current coach does and never under any circumstances criticizes anything done, or is it the fan that questions decisions made and asks why the program can't get any better?  Wants things to change.

Now, there are the fans that think for awhile that the Hogs can do better than Anderson, but with the recent improvements are thinking that perhaps Coach Anderson (Mike that is) really is the real thing.  Are those fans "real fans"?

Please enlighten us with your self proclaimed vast knowledge about all things college basketball and let us know just who the "real fans" are...
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rude1

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #39 on: April 01, 2017, 09:38:26 am »

Except you are the leaving the part out where Michael Qualls also left, aren't you?

If Dozier ends up leaving, too, yes, they will take a big step back. But he's an All-SEC type of player. Chris Silva could be one, too. If SC suffers the kind of losses that we did after 2015, yeah, they'll be hurting. But if they don't, they should be in contention for an NCAA tournament birth. Beyond Dozier and Silva, they have players like Felder and Kotsar also stepping up big deep into the NCAA tournament. Let's quit pretending they have nothing coming back. They don't need an elite player to come in to return the NCAA tournament next season if everyone is back.
So you think SC was going to be a tournament team had they lost Thornwell for the season? I don't.
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Hogs run wild

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #40 on: April 01, 2017, 09:45:32 am »

I just love it when people on a message board think they can tell everyone what a "real" fan is...  what a total joke!!!!

Root for the Razorbacks the exact same way that I do, or your not a "real fan" like I am! 

So, what exactly is a "real fan"?  Is it the fan that blindly follows whomever is in charge and praises everything the current coach does and never under any circumstances criticizes anything done, or is it the fan that questions decisions made and asks why the program can't get any better?  Wants things to change.

Now, there are the fans that think for awhile that the Hogs can do better than Anderson, but with the recent improvements are thinking that perhaps Coach Anderson (Mike that is) really is the real thing.  Are those fans "real fans"?

Please enlighten us with your self proclaimed vast knowledge about all things college basketball and let us know just who the "real fans" are...
Please, do you not know what a real fan is? You must not be one. Well since you have no clue what a fan is, I'll tell you. I real fan was born in 1964 when the football team won the national championship and they were re-born in 1994 when the basketball team beat duke for the national championship. they loved when stan heath got hired and loved everything he did with the program. they really hated when he got fired. but then their sadness turned to joy when Pel got hired. Yay! the way he ran the program was never questioned by any true fan. they just bent over and took it. as long as lube was provided, all was good. what real fans are, are those who loved and accepted houston. he was an arkansan, born and bred. even though he left us for okie state, he was forgiven and welcomed back with open arms. he could do no wrong in their eyes. texting other women? all good. throwing players under the bus? hell those true fans just turned a blind eye to it all. houston was the coach of the arkansas razorbacks and any true fan could tolerate what he did. true razorback fans would've put up with petrino after his blonde on the bike incident, cuz well, he was the razorback coach and any true fan would never question his moral ethics. the coach is always put on a higher pedestal than the Lord himself. true razorback fans never moan about the state of the razorbacks, never question the direction of the program, and never ever complain about it on no razorback forum. that my friend is what a true razorback fan is. if you ain't one of them, well you just a bandwagoner, or a fair weather fan. might as well be a long horn fan. *spit*

/sarcasm
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Hawg Red

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #41 on: April 01, 2017, 05:52:16 pm »

So you think SC was going to be a tournament team had they lost Thornwell for the season? I don't.

What in the world does that have to do with NEXT SEASON? Do you think these returning players are not going to get better and benefit greatly from this deep tournament run?

Some of you act like Sindarius Thronwell is Superman and they will not be able to do anything without him. Programs lose really good players all the time and still manage to have a good season the following year. Arkansas probably makes the NCAA tournament again after losing Portis if Qualls comes back and Beard/Williams don't run afoul of the law. South Carolina will be fine if they get P.J. Dozier and Chris Silva back. If they don't, they'll struggle. You'd think I said SC was going back to the Final 4 instead of just in the NCAAT mix by some of these responses.
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ShadowHawg

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #42 on: April 01, 2017, 06:05:12 pm »

What in the world does that have to do with NEXT SEASON? Do you think these returning players are not going to get better and benefit greatly from this deep tournament run?

Some of you act like Sindarius Thronwell is Superman and they will not be able to do anything without him. Programs lose really good players all the time and still manage to have a good season the following year. Arkansas probably makes the NCAA tournament again after losing Portis if Qualls comes back and Beard/Williams don't run afoul of the law. South Carolina will be fine if they get P.J. Dozier and Chris Silva back. If they don't, they'll struggle. You'd think I said SC was going back to the Final 4 instead of just in the NCAAT mix by some of these responses.

They played 6 games without him and were a .500 club.

They lose more than Thornwell also.

SC is.most likely going struggle to finish in the top half of the SEC.
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Hawg Red

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #43 on: April 01, 2017, 06:46:45 pm »

They played 6 games without him and were a .500 club.

They lose more than Thornwell also.

SC is.most likely going struggle to finish in the top half of the SEC.

They lose Thornwell, Notice and McKie. They have Sedee Keita, who was a top 100 PF, who hasn't played much this year similar to Moses as a freshman. They have David Beatty coming in as a 4-star combo guard, top 120-ish player. Kotsar and Felder are getting big, big experience right now. The Gravitt kid will be back as well. We don't know if they will benefit from this FF run in late period recruiting but I could see it happening. I think they will need to play bigger with Thornwell leaving and most of their returning talent being frontcourt players.

They'll have a little different look but it really doesn't matter what happened with Thornwell this year. He will be totally out of the equation and they have time to prepare for that now. If they return, they have a couple of really good players to lean on to go with some solid supporting players. I will expect any team that returns two possible all-conference players to compete for an NCAAT spot.
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ShadowHawg

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #44 on: April 01, 2017, 07:23:35 pm »

Kotsar is awful, which is why Keita probably not much or he would be playing ahead of him. Gravitt can't drive or shoot.

You are really reaching to see a talented roster at SC.
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rude1

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #45 on: April 01, 2017, 07:32:33 pm »

What in the world does that have to do with NEXT SEASON? Do you think these returning players are not going to get better and benefit greatly from this deep tournament run?

Some of you act like Sindarius Thronwell is Superman and they will not be able to do anything without him. Programs lose really good players all the time and still manage to have a good season the following year. Arkansas probably makes the NCAA tournament again after losing Portis if Qualls comes back and Beard/Williams don't run afoul of the law. South Carolina will be fine if they get P.J. Dozier and Chris Silva back. If they don't, they'll struggle. You'd think I said SC was going back to the Final 4 instead of just in the NCAAT mix by some of these responses.
Oh so you don't think they would have made it this year without Thornwell, but you do next year? I don't. I think you are underestimating the impact that Thornwell has on that team, not only the leader, but he is the best offensive and defensive player on that team, I think without him they don't make it back to the tourney next year.
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hogwood

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #46 on: April 01, 2017, 09:19:28 pm »

Kotsar is awful, which is why Keita probably not much or he would be playing ahead of him. Gravitt can't drive or shoot.

You are really reaching to see a talented roster at SC.

I think your point of view here really needs to be reevaluated. You are saying that because they will lose Thornwell, McKie, and Notice that they will be non-competitive next season? That is 3 players. Look at who else they have had on this run. You must think that we will be absolutely horrible next season as we are losing 3 and we accomplished much less. You also must not know of something called player development. Dozier, Felder, Silva, Kotsar, Gravett, Keita, plus their incoming class. I could easily see them in the top 5 of the SEC next season if not better.
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ShadowHawg

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #47 on: April 01, 2017, 10:23:04 pm »

I think your point of view here really needs to be reevaluated. You are saying that because they will lose Thornwell, McKie, and Notice that they will be non-competitive next season? That is 3 players. Look at who else they have had on this run. You must think that we will be absolutely horrible next season as we are losing 3 and we accomplished much less. You also must not know of something called player development. Dozier, Felder, Silva, Kotsar, Gravett, Keita, plus their incoming class. I could easily see them in the top 5 of the SEC next season if not better.

You have something in your eyes.

No need to be a jerk. It's merely a difference of opinion.

Auburn, Bama, us, Florida, Kentucky, Mississippi State, and Tennessee will all have better rosters. That's HALF the conference.
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HawgHeadCheese

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #48 on: April 02, 2017, 02:01:47 am »

I think your point of view here really needs to be reevaluated. You are saying that because they will lose Thornwell, McKie, and Notice that they will be non-competitive next season? That is 3 players. Look at who else they have had on this run. You must think that we will be absolutely horrible next season as we are losing 3 and we accomplished much less. You also must not know of something called player development. Dozier, Felder, Silva, Kotsar, Gravett, Keita, plus their incoming class. I could easily see them in the top 5 of the SEC next season if not better.

I think you're a South Carolina fan on the low lmao
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hogwood

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Re: State of the Hogs: My take
« Reply #49 on: April 02, 2017, 08:28:53 am »

You have something in your eyes.

No need to be a jerk. It's merely a difference of opinion.

Auburn, Bama, us, Florida, Kentucky, Mississippi State, and Tennessee will all have better rosters. That's HALF the conference.

No need but I thought your opinion of SC was especially insulting seeing all they have accomplished this year. AUB and MSST arguably had as good or better rosters than SC this year. TN will have who next year better and with more experience than Dozier or Silva? Not even collectively. And I never said they'd be better than KY or FLA. they will be top 5 and as of now they have the talent to be. They are returning potentially 9 players from a Final 4 team (which beat a "better roster" FLA team on the way), you can't discredit that or negate that experience from the returning players.
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