Stoops gets another raise.

[The Hogfather]

Bob Stoops is 109-24 in college.  4-6 in bowl games at OU and 2-5 in BCS bowl games, including 1 National Championship.  He has taken his team to win 6 Big 12 Championships out of his 10 years there and 7 Big 12 South Championships.  He has 4 National Championship appearances to Carroll's 2.

Now, I won't argue for a moment that Pete Carroll is a better coach than Stoops.  But comparing their accolades and considering that both of them have impressive resumes only at one college where it's fairly easy to win at both colleges, I still consider Stoops to be a great coach.

4-6 in bowl games (Carroll 6-2)
2-5 in BCS bowl games (Carroll 6-1)
1-3 in NC games (wow, 4 appearances, that's great, when you build up a gaudy record against inferior competition---Carroll is 1 for 1 in NC games and has 2 NCs)
109-24 (82%) (Carroll is at 85%)

There's no comparison.

Like I said, Carroll is borderline great, but I'd put him in that category.

That puts Stoops a couple of notches below, in my DECENT category.

[hogfan064]

And?

They've also dominated some good teams out of conference and in bowl games.

Like I said, Carroll is borderline great in my opinion.  I would include him there because he seems to win when it counts.  Sure, he lets a few slip by (like Stoops has as well), but he makes up for it in the OOC and bowl games (which Stoops has not).

Stoops doesn't dominate OOC?

-His defense dominated FSU 13-3 in 2000

-Beat an 8 win UNC team 41-27 in 2001

-Beat PAC 10 champs WSU by 20 in 2002

-Beat SEC West Champ Alabama by 10 in 2002

-Beat UCLA by 35 in 2003

-Beat Fresno State by 24 in 2003

-Beat Bama by 7 in Tuscaloosa in 03

-Beat Oregon by 24 in 04

-Beat Oregon by 3 in 05

-Beat Miami by 38 in 07

-Beat Tulsa by 41 in 07

-Beat Big East Champ Cinci by 26 in 08

-Beat 11 win TCU by 25 in 08. 

[bigdaddyhawg]

When you play 1-2 teams with comparable talent to your own per year, you shouldn't be upset 12 times in a decade.

That basically means they're losing to all but a few teams with comparable talent to them.

You analysis here is flawed.  When you say "favored" to win, you are going by ranking, and that is a "subjective" and a flawed basis to work with.

Every single week you and I and every other single college FB fan comes out and decries how bad the rankings are, how many teams they have in wrong places, etc..  Polls / rankings are a beauty pageant and do not actually indicate the true qualities of teams.

I believe Stoops would be a big winner no matter where he coached.  He has tradition and a name behind him now.  Well, I guess you could also add money.  But as several have pointed out to you he doesn't have a backyard stuffed full of future pros to recruit from.

Here's another yardstick to determine if a coach is great or not:  Do their teams produce year in and year out??  Or do they have an "off" year every 4 or 5.  They great ones have a plan and they stick to it and it works.  Stoops is definitely in that category.

How many games did the Bear lose at Bama his teams should have won?  I don't know, but I bet there were a bunch.  He went for, what, 9 or 10 years straight without a bowl win?  It doesn't take one thing away from the fact he was a great coach.

[hogfan064]

And?

They've also dominated some good teams out of conference and in bowl games.

Like I said, Carroll is borderline great in my opinion.  I would include him there because he seems to win when it counts.  Sure, he lets a few slip by (like Stoops has as well), but he makes up for it in the OOC and bowl games (which Stoops has not).

Stoops doesn't dominate OOC?

-His defense dominated FSU 13-3 in 2000

-Beat an 8 win UNC team 41-27 in 2001

-Beat PAC 10 champs WSU by 20 in 2002

-Beat SEC West Champ Alabama by 10 in 2002

-Beat UCLA by 35 in 2003

-Beat Fresno State by 24 in 2003

-Beat Bama by 7 in Tuscaloosa in 03

-Beat Oregon by 24 in 04

-Beat Oregon by 3 in 05

-Beat Miami by 38 in 07

-Beat Tulsa by 41 in 07

-Beat Big East Champ Cinci by 26 in 08

-Beat 11 win TCU by 25 in 08.

[ErieHog]

4-6 in bowl games (Carroll 6-2)
2-5 in BCS bowl games (Carroll 6-1)
1-3 in NC games (wow, 4 appearances, that's great, when you build up a gaudy record against inferior competition---Carroll is 1 for 1 in NC games and has 2 NCs)
109-24 (82%) (Carroll is at 85%)

There's no comparison.

Like I said, Carroll is borderline great, but I'd put him in that category.

That puts Stoops a couple of notches below, in my DECENT category.

1 for 1?  Forgetting the Texas debacle?

[hogfan064]

4-6 in bowl games (Carroll 6-2)
2-5 in BCS bowl games (Carroll 6-1)
1-3 in NC games (wow, 4 appearances, that's great, when you build up a gaudy record against inferior competition---Carroll is 1 for 1 in NC games and has 2 NCs)
109-24 (82%) (Carroll is at 85%)

There's no comparison.

Like I said, Carroll is borderline great, but I'd put him in that category.

That puts Stoops a couple of notches below, in my DECENT category.

Carroll also has the better job.  He has the best job in college football. 

-LA is an easier city to recruit a kid to than Norman, OK

-California has far more instate talent than Oklahoma

-Southern California is a better academic institution than OU

-Southern California has more money than OU

-Southern California's stadium is larger than OU's

-Southern California has less conference competition

-Southern California is a national team. 

About the only thing OU has over Southern Cal is more loyal fans.  Both have similar traditions.  Not sure I would put one over another. 

Oh and you can pay players to play at Southern California and the NCAA will look the other way.

[The Hogfather]

When you have a 4-6 record in bowl games, a 2-5 record in BCS bowl games, a 1-3 record in NC games, and won your only National Championship with someone else's players, no, I'm not going to consider you great, nor would I say you dominate out of conference.

I bet you guys would put Les Miles in the great category as well.  That's sad....

[The Hogfather]

1 for 1?  Forgetting the Texas debacle?

Sorry, meant 1 for 2 with 2 NCs.  Man, these guys talking about Oklahoma "not exactly getting blown out" this year against Florida would have to give Carroll a moral victory on that game....

[hogfan064]

When you have a 4-6 record in bowl games, a 2-5 record in BCS bowl games, a 1-3 record in NC games, and won your only National Championship with someone else's players, no, I'm not going to consider you great, nor would I say you dominate out of conference.

I bet you guys would put Les Miles in the great category as well.  That's sad....

The jury is out on Miles.  He's only been at his program for 4 years.  The LSU program isn't better under Miles than it was under Saban, it is for the most part about the same.  I think he fails, but if he can win a few more SEC Championships then who's to say he isn't great?

[The Hogfather]

Anyone who considers Les Miles as a great coach, or even borderline great, is insane.  I will not even discuss that.  Gotta go for awhile.  Wonder if I'm the only one in the world that considers Stoops decent?  I guess decent in my book is good or great in other people's books.  Thanks for the discussion, I'll be back later.

[hogfan064]

Anyone who considers Les Miles as a great coach, or even borderline great, is insane.  I will not even discuss that.  Gotta go for awhile.  Wonder if I'm the only one in the world that considers Stoops decent?  I guess decent in my book is good or great in other people's books.  Thanks for the discussion, I'll be back later.

Again, I don't think you can make a decision about Miles yet.  It wouldn't be fair.  He has yet to coach a team with all his players.  If the man gets 1-2 more SEC titles then I would say you have to consider him at least very good. 

[cbjagman]

Just think what he might get paid if he actually won a BCS bowl game, particularly the NC.

[Oliver]

4-6 in bowl games (Carroll 6-2)
2-5 in BCS bowl games (Carroll 6-1)
1-3 in NC games (wow, 4 appearances, that's great, when you build up a gaudy record against inferior competition---Carroll is 1 for 1 in NC games and has 2 NCs)
109-24 (82%) (Carroll is at 85%)

There's no comparison.

Like I said, Carroll is borderline great, but I'd put him in that category.

That puts Stoops a couple of notches below, in my DECENT category.

Who is a great coach in your eyes and why?

[BorderPatrol]

Pete Carroll is 88-15 in college.  6-2 in bowl games at USC and 6-1 in BCS bowl games, including 2 National Championships.  He has taken his team to win 7 Pac 10 Championships out of his 8 years there.

You call that borderline? There is NOT a university that would NOT want any of those records....

Speaking of insane...

bp

[The Hogfather]

You call that borderline? There is NOT a university that would NOT want any of those records....

Speaking of insane...

bp

Just because his teams lose games that they shouldn't usually about once a year and he needs to do it for a little bit longer.  He's had a great tenure at USC, that's for sure.  Like I said, he's in that category for me.  And, to me, Stoops is at least a few notches below Carroll, which puts him in my decent category.

Thanks for the insult.

th

[bigdaddyhawg]

Apparently there is only one "great" coach currently coaching in NCAA D1 -- Urban Meyer?  Is that right?  Or do you even put him in the "great" class?

And everybody else is just "decent".  Seems to me a very strange standard of evaluation.  I'm not sure just how many people out there would agree that's a sound evaluation, though.  I doubt the fans at USC, Texas, Bama, Ohio State, Penn State, FSU, LSU, or even here at UA would agree with that.  But all of us are probably wrong and you know better than us all.

[The Hogfather]

Apparently there is only one "great" coach currently coaching in NCAA D1 -- Urban Meyer?  Is that right?  Or do you even put him in the "great" class?

And everybody else is just "decent".  Seems to me a very strange standard of evaluation.  I'm not sure just how many people out there would agree that's a sound evaluation, though.  I doubt the fans at USC, Texas, Bama, Ohio State, Penn State, FSU, LSU, or even here at UA would agree with that.  But all of us are probably wrong and you know better than us all.

Nope.  Urban Meyer, Bowden, Paterno, Carroll, among others.

I think Petrino is a better coach than Stoops.

[hogfan064]

Nope.  Urban Meyer, Bowden, Paterno, Carroll, among others.

I think Petrino is a better coach than Stoops.

Bowden was great, not anymore.  He's not even coaching anymore, just doing interviews. 

[The Hogfather]

Bowden was great, not anymore.  He's not even coaching anymore, just doing interviews. 

Overall, he's one of the all-time greats.  That cannot be disputed.  I agree he's become more of a figurehead than a coach lately. 

[BorderPatrol]

Anyone who considers Les Miles as a great coach, or even borderline great, is insane.

But it is only an insult when someone uses it?

You are about as wishy washy as windshield wipers on a goats ass...

bp

[The Hogfather]

But it is only an insult when someone uses it?

You are about as wishy washy as windshield wipers on a goats ass...

bp

Thanks for your contribution to the discussion....

th

[hawgsav1]

When you play 1-2 teams with comparable talent to your own per year, you shouldn't be upset 12 times in a decade.

That basically means they're losing to all but a few teams with comparable talent to them.

So what do you think is a reasonable number?  His teams have been one of the better teams in recent memory, so every time he loses, it's pretty much going to be an upset.  Even other 'better' coaches are getting upset at least once a year (USC has lost at least one or more games a year apart from the 2004 season, and they haven't had Carroll as long as OU has had Stoops.  UM has lost at least one game at UF every year he's been coach.)  If I was starting a team, I'd take Stoops in a heartbeat. 

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Nope.  Urban Meyer, Bowden, Paterno, Carroll, among others.

I think Petrino is a better coach than Stoops.

We all hope that is true and we are about to see the evidence of that one way or another.

[The Hogfather]

So what do you think is a reasonable number?  His teams have been one of the better teams in recent memory, so every time he loses, it's pretty much going to be an upset.  Even other 'better' coaches are getting upset at least once a year (USC has lost at least one or more games a year apart from the 2004 season, and they haven't had Carroll as long as OU has had Stoops.  UM has lost at least one game at UF every year he's been coach.)  If I was starting a team, I'd take Stoops in a heartbeat. 

And I wouldn't.  There'd be 10+ coaches I'd take above him.  To each their own.

Basically, OU loses more than they win against teams with equal talent as them.  That is why I think BCS bowl record (or equivalent for coaches back in the day) is just about the best indicator of how good a coach is.  They usually provide largely equal match-ups.  Therefore, if you have a 2-5 record in those bowl games, you are either the most unlucky guy in the history of the world, or you aren't as good of a coach as people like to give you credit for.  Especially when you consider that one of those (the biggest one out of the two BCS bowl wins, a NC) came in his second year at OU.  So, he had ONE recruiting class there before they won his National Championship.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

When you have a 4-6 record in bowl games, a 2-5 record in BCS bowl games, a 1-3 record in NC games, and won your only National Championship with someone else's players, no, I'm not going to consider you great, nor would I say you dominate out of conference.

I bet you guys would put Les Miles in the great category as well.  That's sad....

You know, I have sat here and read this stuff over and over and yeah, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but what do you know of OU and Bob Stoops except what you read in the newspapers, read on a blog or see on t.v.?

I am not going to argue about whether or not they have underachieved in bowl games and especially in BCS games...anyone can see that.

Nonetheless, Stoops is a great coach. What hurt Bob Stoops more than anything was the loss of his brother Mike, to the HC position at Arizona. Living in Oklahoma, I not only get to see a lot of their program but I also have friends connected to the program and I am going to tell you right now, that program has not been the same since Mike Stoops left. For some odd reason, he was the heart and soul of that program and he injected his personality and demeanor not only into the defense for which he was the DC, but it carried over to the offense as well...a real tough guy mentality.

This is not to say that Bob Stoops isn't a great coach because HC's are great because of their ability to recruit and coordinate the entire team of coaches that coordinate the players. If Bob Stoops has one failing it is loyalty. Loyalty to people he has coached with before or had some kind of connection with.

If you think that isn't true, think back to when he had Chuck "third and long" Long as his OC. Every OU fan in Oklahoma and I do mean every one of them, was praying that he would be offered a HC'ing gig somewhere and resign. Why? Stoop's loyalty. He just couldn't seem to bring himself to getting rid of Chuck Long(an Iowa Connection). Finally, that happened and Oklahoma fans were breathing a sigh of relief that Long was gone and that Stoops hired Kevin Wilson away from Northwestern. This is just an example.

His tendency to be loyal to those with which he has had past associations is viewed by some to be honorable. Others say that in the world of Div I big time football, just like in business, there isn't any room for sentimentality.

Stoops has done a pretty pitiful job of getting his team ready for bowls and BCS bowls in particular. Yet, he has always been a good enough coach to help them find a way to get there. And a BCS bowl means more money for your school and just getting there means getting a substantial amount will be deposited in the OU coffers. In 2000 alone, OU received almost 12 million dollars for playing Florida State...win OR lose. Eight bowl seasons have passed since that time. How much money do you think Stoops has put in Oklahoma's bank account? Think they care that he is just 2-5 in BCS games? Well yeah, they would rather win, but these days, and let's not kid ourselves, it is all about the financials at the end of the day.

As long as Bob Stoops continues to win the vast majority of his games and regularly gets OU to a BCS bowl where the big payoff is found, he'll have a job at OU and be amply rewarded for it.

You can call him a great coach or call him a poor coach. For this day and time, he is a great coach and being a great coach is about a great deal more than just pure coaching.

Would you say Knute Rockne was a great coach? Well, you might not, but the vast majority of the american football loving world would. They built their wins on the backs of some pretty small and obscure teams over those years like, Case Institute of Technology, Wabash College, Great Lakes Naval Training Station, Kalamazoo, Michigan, Morningside College, DePauw, Haskell Institute, Lombard, Illinois and Carnegie Mellon. Yet, those Rockne teams are regarded with reverence. But in that day, there was more actual coaching that a HC did on a daily basis than they do now. Now they rely on the staff they have hired.

Stoops is a very good coach and if we didn't have BP, I would take him in a heartbeat. I think BP, like any head coach, is loyal to certain people that helped him get where he is, and that is a good thing. He hired John L. Smith didn't he? But hopefully, BP will not suffer from blind loyalty to the degree that Stoops seemed to have. If it hadn't been for that, I think Stoops record in bowl games and overall would be better than it is right now.

[The Hogfather]

As long as Bob Stoops continues to win the vast majority of his games and regularly gets OU to a BCS bowl where the big payoff is found, he'll have a job at OU and be amply rewarded for it.

You can call him a great coach or call him a poor coach. For this day and time, he is a great coach and being a great coach is about a great deal more than just pure coaching.

Yes.  That's great.  I understand all that.  But, winning a bunch of regular season games at OU does not make him a great coach, in my opinion.  Neither does creating revenue.  Neither does doing better than the previous two coaches had done there.

I don't think he's a poor coach, I just don't think he's even close to great.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Yes.  That's great.  I understand all that.  But, winning a bunch of regular season games at OU does not make him a great coach, in my opinion.

I don't think he's a poor coach, I just don't think he's even close to great.

I know it was long, but apparently you didn't read the entire response to your post. If you are going to respond, at least read it all. There was a bit in there about Rockne who built his record on lesser teams, yet he is regarded as one of the all time great coaches. PLUS, there is a lot more to being a great coach, than just pure coaching, these days.

[The Hogfather]

I know it was long, but apparently you didn't read the entire response to your post. If you are going to respond, at least read it all. There was a bit in there about Rockne who built his record on lesser teams, yet he is regarded as oen fo the all time great coaches. 

I read it.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

I read it.

Then apparently you choose to ignore certain parts that challenge your point. We have been in these debates before. You selectively choose that which you want to respond to in order to make your points. That's fine. Doesn't mean you are right, or that I am wrong.

[The Hogfather]

Then apparently you choose to ignore certain parts that challenge your point. We have been in these debates before. You selectively choose that which you want to respond to in order to make your points. That's fine. Doesn't mean you are right, or that I am wrong.

Bullshirt.  What do you want me to say about Rockne?  That was a different time.  Rutgers was the birthplace of college football.  How many people knew they even had a team until a couple of years ago?  Army had 4 National Championships and 3 Heisman winners before 1950.  Again, it was a different time.

Of course I consider him a great coach.

The man won 6 National Championships in 13 seasons with Notre Dame.  He still holds the all-time highest winning % of 88.1% (105-12-5).

And, no, that doesn't change anything in regards to my opinion of Big Game Bob.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Bullshirt.  What do you want me to say about Rockne?  That was a different time.  Rutgers was the birthplace of college football.  How many people knew they even had a team until a couple of years ago?  Army had 4 National Championships and 3 Heisman winners before 1950.  Again, it was a different time.

Of course I consider him a great coach.

The man won 6 National Championships in 13 seasons with Notre Dame.  He still holds the all-time highest winning % of 88.1% (105-12-5).

And, no, that doesn't change anything in regards to my opinion of Big Game Bob.

And as I said, he built that record playing who? No names. Just as you assert about Stoops playing teams below his level of talent and ability. Methinks you just have something against Bob Stoops or you are too hard headed to see the logic and correlation.

[The Hogfather]

And as I said, he built that record playing who? No names. Just as you assert about Stoops playing teams below his level of talent and ability. Methinks you just have something against Bob Stoops or you are too hard headed to see the logic and correlation.

Methinks you don't have a clue as to what you are typing. 

I get the correlation that you are attempting to present, I just happen to think, in reality, there is no correlation between the two.

Did you know that Rockne was 1-0 in bowl games (and 1-0 in BCS equivalent bowl games---1924 Rose Bowl---they beat an undefeated Stanford team)?

It was a different time...

[The Hogfather]

I guess I would want to keep Stoops, but really, anyone who isn't a complete FOOL can win there.  They have one, count them, ONE legitimate competitor in their conference and the inside track on the best players in Texas.  All they have to do every year is beat Texas and not stub a toe on a second class team and they are in the title game.  If you ask me, Stoops has been very unimpressive at OU.

That's how I feel as well.  In the first couple of years, he was very impressive.  But, he has gone on to prove, in my opinion, he is just a decent coach with a great situation at OU.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Methinks you don't have a clue as to what you are typing. 

I get the correlation that you are attempting to present, I just happen to think, in reality, there is no correlation between the two.

Did you know that Rockne was 1-0 in bowl games (and 1-0 in BCS equivalent bowl games---1924 Rose Bowl---they beat an undefeated Stanford team)?

It was a different time...

Yeah, ok, pass it off. You have your opinion, I have mine. Stoops would do well in the SEC provided he could get over his over-riding tendency to be too loyal to those coaches he has had previous associations with, and that tend to hurt him in the long run in biggger games. He bears the burden(and rightfully so) for having way underachieved in BCS games, but to say the guy isn't a great coach, no matter who they play, is just being disconnected from the truth.

[The Hogfather]

Yeah, ok, pass it off. You have your opinion, I have mine. Stoops would do well in the SEC provided he could get over his over-riding tendency to be too loyal to those coaches he has had previous associations with, and that tend to hurt him in the long run in biggger games. He bears the burden(and rightfully so) for having way underachieved in BCS games, but to say the guy isn't a great coach, no matter who they play, is just being disconnected from the truth.

Not really.

He is 2-5 in BCS bowl games, usually the most fair match-ups of all.  He has a losing bowl record.  He is 0-5 in his last 5 BCS bowl games.  He is only 1-3 in National Championship games and the one that he one was with a previous coach's players. 

Sorry, but no matter what your connections to the program say, those are not the statistics of a GREAT coach.

[The Hogfather]

Stoops is decent, but not great.

Everyone have a blessed night...

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Not really.

He is 2-5 in BCS bowl games, usually the most fair match-ups of all.  He has a losing bowl record.  He is 0-5 in his last 5 BCS bowl games.  He is only 1-3 in National Championship games and the one that he one was with a previous coach's players. 

Sorry, but no matter what your connections to the program say, those are not the statistics of a GREAT coach.

You don't have to keep regurgitating the same stats over and over, we heard you the first time and yeah, anyone who is a football fan pretty well knows how OU has screwed the pooch in BCS games.

If your reading comprehension was as good as your s.a. remarks, you would know that what I said was that my connections to the program stated that the program has never been the same since Mike Stoops left....and that is exactly what I said. But then you said you read that....right, of course you did. All evidence to the contrary.

Hey, you don't think he is a great coach, that's fine. I do, and that is fine as well. I suspect that most would think he was and there are always a few, either with an axe to grind or just looking for an argument, that might disagree. That's ok too. It matters not.

[NWASooner]

When you play 1-2 teams with comparable talent to your own per year, you shouldn't be upset 12 times in a decade.

That basically means they're losing to all but a few teams with comparable talent to them.

OK, so if he's so average, who's better?  Have they been "upset" fewer than 12 times in one decade?

[NWASooner]

I think Petrino is a better coach than Stoops.

Really?  By what standard?  If Petrino's record over the next 10 years equals Stoops' over the past 10, you'll be building a statue of Petrino in the front of Bobby Petrino Stadium at the corner of Razorback Rd. and Petrino Pass.

As for the conference, Frantastic won in the SEC but not in the Big 12 so that should tell you how relevant that argument is.

[NWASooner]

Would you rather lose a BCS game or win the Cotton Bowl?

[NWASooner]

If Houston Nutt had played OU's schedule his record would be as good as Stoops. 

If during Nutt's 10 year tenure had Arkansas been in the Big 12, Nutt's conference record about be a shade above .500, which is about what it was in the SEC.  Remember, Nebraska, K-State, and Colorado were all very good for the first half of the Big 12.

As for Petrino, he may turn out to be great but he's been a head coach 4 years in D-1 and you're comparing him to coaches with national titles.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

That's the point.  OU has NOT screwed the pooch in BCS games.  They DID NOT BELONG in those games.  They benefit from (1) playing in a 2 horse conference which makes them appear to be much better than they are, and (2) a MORONIC press and public which puts them in MNC games when they can't even beat KANSAS STATE in their own championship game.

You are losing your rationality. You and Hogfather need to room together.

[NWASooner]

You amaze me with almost everything you write.  TCU does not equal ALABAMA.  You should eat more fish, I hear its brain-food.

Were you aware that Fran coached at A&M while in the Big 12?  What's that about brain food?

[NWASooner]

I would rather win the Cotton Bowl.   Who wouldn't?

The AD that's cashing the check.

[NWASooner]

Are you REALLY trying to compare A$M to ALABAMA?

Do you really not know where Fran coached after Bama.

No, I'm trying to compare the two.  You're saying Stoops is average because he wins in the Big 12.  I'm saying Fran won more in the SEC than the Big 12 as proof that conference really doesn't matter.

[NWASooner]

None of those teams have been worth warm spit since Stoops went to OU.

Nebraska and K-State were both Top 5 teams in 2000.  Nebraska played for the national title in 2001.

Read more.  Post less.

[NWASooner]

See also, Baylor, TTech, Colorado, Iowa State, Texas A&M, Okie State, Missouri, and Kansas

What happened the last time you played Missouri?  They're not that awful.

I suppose by your standard that Jim Tressel is also an average and mediocre coach?

[hawgsav1]

What happened the last time you played Missouri?  They're not that awful.

I suppose by your standard that Jim Tressel is also an average and mediocre coach?

Don't bring up Jim Tressel.  Many people on here would incorrectly assume him to be a 'bad' coach.  Frankly, he's made some mistakes in big games, but I'd still put him in the top 10 of current coaches.  And for those saying that Petrino is better than Stoops, that's a little bit of excessive homerism there.  Stoops has sustained success at Oklahoma for nearly a decade now, while Petrino only had success at Louisville for a few years before his disastrous stint in the NFL.  While last year was Nutty's fault, we still went 5-7.

[JoePaul03]

Let's see where we can go with this.

Great coaches....

(1) Pete Carroll
(2) Urban Meyer

Who else, and what are the qualifications? This may wind up being a pretty slippery slope. 

How about Big Fat Charlie @ ND? They do have that whole "decided schematic advantage" and all. Ha ha ha.

Man I hate Notre Dame.

[JoePaul03]

And?

They've also dominated some good teams out of conference and in bowl games.

Like I said, Carroll is borderline great in my opinion.  I would include him there because he seems to win when it counts.  Sure, he lets a few slip by (like Stoops has as well), but he makes up for it in the OOC and bowl games (which Stoops has not).

Carroll in bowl games is sort of a bastardized statistic to me...Usually, once a year, he gets beat by someone who has no business even being on the field with USC. (Oregon State-twice, UCLA, and Stanford, for example.) These losses get them thrown out of the national title game, so they go to the Rose Bowl, where they play the champ or runner-up of the Big Ten---The same Big Ten that's been exposed over and over as not being nearly as good as they think they are.

PC is a good coach, but he's sort of "fattened" up his bowl won-loss record thanks to inexcuseable losses in the regular season.