Best UA basketball coach of all time?

[hoghappy]

Eddie was good, but Nolan was GREAT.   Not really a comparison between the 2.

how many coaches have won 800 games? When Sutton did it their were less than 4. Currently there are only 8. Not great? Your standards are not realistic.

[nextlevel]

If I accept Eddie's Ky years, one also must accept Nolan's post Arkansas year's where no one wanted anything to do with Nolan except for a WNBA team, which was terrible. Eddie had Quality jobs as long as he wanted them.

I will restate that I am not Anti-Nolan. I am only showing where those who say Nolan was far and away better have disqualified themselves from intelligent basketball conversation.

Why not set the starting point at 1975 for both?

Is it because you would then have to include a JUCO National Championship and a NIT title?

Nolan won 508 games in 22 seasons in D1 NCAA ball with 2 different teams. He had a 71% career winning %, He won 70% of his games while at Arkansas.

During Sutton's first 22 years in D1 he won 482 games with 3 different teams,  he had a 71% career winning %, He won 77% of his games while at Arkansas.

Career winning % is the same, had Nolan coached an additional 15 years like Sutton did in his career, he would had needed only 17 wins a season to break 800 career wins.

Both are similar in how they moved up the ranks, from HS to JUCO to a Mid-major to a power conference team.

[pigture perfect]

Why not set the starting point at 1975 for both?

Is it because you would then have to include a JUCO National Championship and a NIT title?

Nolan won 508 games in 22 seasons in D1 NCAA ball with 2 different teams. He had a 71% career winning %, He won 70% of his games while at Arkansas.

During Sutton's first 22 years in D1 he won 482 games with 3 different teams,  he had a 71% career winning %, He won 77% of his games while at Arkansas.

Career winning % is the same, had Nolan coached an additional 15 years like Sutton did in his career, he would had needed only 17 wins a season to break 800 career wins.

Both are similar in how they moved up the ranks, from HS to JUCO to a Mid-major to a power conference team.

that has been my point all along. I don't have a problem at all if people believe Nolan is better. My issue has always been with those who say its not even close. It's so close in fact, that for every + you find for one, you can find one for the other. That's why they are both nominated for the basketball hall of fame this year. There is no wrong answer to this question.

[hambone]

that has been my point all along. I don't have a problem at all if people believe Nolan is better. My issue has always been with those who say its not even close. It's so close in fact, that for every + you find for one, you can find one for the other. That's why they are both nominated for the basketball hall of fame this year. There is no wrong answer to this question.

The question is who was the best UA basketball coach, not who was the best coach to ever coach at the U of A?

The best Razorbacks basketball coach was Nolan and it really isn't even close when you look at their records at the U of A.

[nextlevel]

The question is who was the best UA basketball coach, not who was the best coach to ever coach at the U of A?

The best Razorbacks basketball coach was Nolan and it really isn't even close when you look at their records at the U of A.

Yes.

Sutton won games and coached for a very long time, any coach who does that will surpass whatever win mark if they coach long enough.

Nolan won at the same percentage, so it is only reasonable to assume he too would have eclipsed the x win mark had he coached long enough.

The difference comes down to Nolan taking every team he coached to the highest possible achievement for each, JUCO - JUCO NC, Tulsa - NIT (unless you considered their program to have a NC possibility), Arkansas - NC.

Sutton never took one of his teams to the final round of either the NIT or NCAA tournament. He won a bunch of games but never sniffed winning the big game.

[pigture perfect]

Only because Nolan stayed longer. Look at winning percentage, # of AA's and NBA'ers produced. Are you just giving Nolan a sympathy vote?

[MJ2]

how many coaches have won 800 games? When Sutton did it their were less than 4. Currently there are only 8. Not great? Your standards are not realistic.

You're putting too much logic into it.   I was just stating my opinion.

[hambone]

Only because Nolan stayed longer. Look at winning percentage, # of AA's and NBA'ers produced. Are you just giving Nolan a sympathy vote?

How about 3 final fours to only one?

There was that national championship thing also.

I would also agree that Eddie did less with more here. There are people that think Nolan only won because of talent and Eddie won because of coaching.

I think that facts support the the argument being the other way around.

[pigture perfect]

The final 4's and NC , can only be counted as wins, because you can not assume one way or the other if Sutton would not have made 2 more final 4's and won a national championship in another 6 years. Eddie's career was more consistent than Nolan's. Eddie was on the rise when he left and Nolan was on the decline as he was leaving, but again, you can't assume Eddie wouldn't have done that as well. Once the Memphis recruits quit coming, Nolan's career started slipping. Dear Lord, dude. Quit making me bring up bad things for one of my heroes. Just concede that they were close and not eon's apart.

[nextlevel]

Sutton coached an additional 15 years over Nolan, he was only able to match the amount of Final Fours, never won a championship.

Their careers ended in a similar fashion with plenty of 1st or 2nd round NCAA exits, NITs deep into their tenures, etc. Nolan figuratively hit a ditch, Eddie literally crashed into a ditch effectively ending his career before sitting on the bench of a losing San Francisco team until they managed enough wins to put him past the 800 mark.

[hogfan10]

How about 3 final fours to only one?

There was that national championship thing also.

I would also agree that Eddie did less with more here. There are people that think Nolan only won because of talent and Eddie won because of coaching.

I think that facts support the the argument being the other way around.

Sutton did less with more, seriously?

I don't think the facts support that at all. If any thing, the facts support Sutton being more of a developer of basketball talent (Walker, Robertson etc.). Those guys weren't considered to be sure fire NBAers coming out of high school, yet they had long NBA careers. I think Nolan's system coached up the nonNBA type players, but probably underdeveloped the future NBAers.

In both philosophies you had to do some coaching. I think both coaches won because they had good players AND because they could coach.

[hambone]

Sutton did less with more, seriously?

I don't think the facts support that at all. If any thing, the facts support Sutton being more of a developer of basketball talent (Walker, Robertson etc.). Those guys weren't considered to be sure fire NBAers coming out of high school, yet they had long NBA careers. I think Nolan's system coached up the nonNBA type players, but probably underdeveloped the future NBAers.

In both philosophies you had to do some coaching. I think both coaches won because they had good players AND because they could coach.

Just using a little hyperbole to make a point.

In those days, there were very few sure fire NBA high schoolers because the NBA wasn't looking for kids that young. Darrel Dawkins was considered a freak of nature to have gone straight to the NBA.

Darrel and Alvin were JUCOs. Darrell played at Westark and was as good at Westark as he ever was on the hill. Sutton had to tame his attitude was all but I wouldn't say he made him a better ball handler, defender, etc. Same with Robertson. We got both those guys because they were considered outlaws, not because they were overlooked coming out of high school.

Darrel changed his life, and Alvin ended up in prison.

What Sutton did here that no one really gives him credit for was almost invented the Big Guard. He and Denny Crum were trail blazers in regards to this. They made great defenders and you could exploit mismatches on the post with them.

Sutton was a great developer of low post talent though. He really did develop guys like Hastings, Klein, and later Big Country Reeves.

Both were great coaches here. But Nolan was the best here and it wasn't close. All you need to look at are the banners hanging from the ceilings.

[hogfan10]

Just using a little hyperbole to make a point.

In those days, there were very few sure fire NBA high schoolers because the NBA wasn't looking for kids that young. Darrel Dawkins was considered a freak of nature to have gone straight to the NBA.

Darrel and Alvin were JUCOs. Darrell played at Westark and was as good at Westark as he ever was on the hill. Sutton had to tame his attitude was all but I wouldn't say he made him a better ball handler, defender, etc. Same with Robertson. We got both those guys because they were considered outlaws, not because they were overlooked coming out of high school.

Darrel changed his life, and Alvin ended up in prison.

What Sutton did here that no one really gives him credit for was almost invented the Big Guard. He and Denny Crum were trail blazers in regards to this. They made great defenders and you could exploit mismatches on the post with them.

Sutton was a great developer of low post talent though. He really did develop guys like Hastings, Klein, and later Big Country Reeves.

Both were great coaches here. But Nolan was the best here and it wasn't close. All you need to look at are the banners hanging from the ceilings.

I agree that Nolan was the best coach in Razorback history, but we'll have to agree to disagree on the amount of seperation between the two.

If two years (out of 18) are removed ('94/95), the two would of had very similar careers at Arkansas. In fact you would probably be arguing that Sutton was the best, since his winning % was better (even when including the '94/95 years).

[hambone]

I agree that Nolan was the best coach in Razorback history, but we'll have to agree to disagree on the amount of seperation between the two.

If two years (out of 18) are removed ('94/95), the two would of had very similar careers at Arkansas. In fact you would probably be arguing that Sutton was the best, since his winning % was better (even when including the '94/95 years).

Actually, if you remove two from Nolan, then you would have to remove Sutton's best two to be fair. Do that, and it really isn't close at all.

I also notice that most Sutton supporters are shying away from NCAA tournament records of both coaches. I believe you will find your separation to be quite large if you do that. Let's face it, NCAA Tournament performance is what really defines a coach.


Here goes, I couldn't find a place that broke their wins down by school, which is important because we are talking about U of A.

Sutton was 9-9 in the NCAA tournament while here. There were fewer rounds so he probably gets cheated out of some early wins, but it is what it is, .500

Nolan was 25-13 or 66% win pct in the NCAA tournament. Sutton would have had to win 9 more games, and even with the addition of a earlier rounds there would be no guarantee of those victories as the tournament was expanded to allow for more good teams to be added, not for weaker ones.

So when you really look into the numbers, Sutton wasn't getting it done come Tournament time in what was an easier tournament bracket because if you were any good at all, you were seeded into the round of 32 and might play someone like Louisiana Tech to make the sweet sixteen in those days.

A closer look shows just how wide the margin really is.

[PonderinHog]

Eddie was always the first to admit that his NCAAT losses were the result of poor coaching.  He may have been right.   

[hogfan10]

[/quote]

Actually, if you remove two from Nolan, then you would have to remove Sutton's best two to be fair. Do that, and it really isn't close at all.

I also notice that most Sutton supporters are shying away from NCAA tournament records of both coaches. I believe you will find your separation to be quite large if you do that. Let's face it, NCAA Tournament performance is what really defines a coach.


Here goes, I couldn't find a place that broke their wins down by school, which is important because we are talking about U of A.

Sutton was 9-9 in the NCAA tournament while here. There were fewer rounds so he probably gets cheated out of some early wins, but it is what it is, .500

Nolan was 25-13 or 66% win pct in the NCAA tournament. Sutton would have had to win 9 more games, and even with the addition of a earlier rounds there would be no guarantee of those victories as the tournament was expanded to allow for more good teams to be added, not for weaker ones.

So when you really look into the numbers, Sutton wasn't getting it done come Tournament time in what was an easier tournament bracket because if you were any good at all, you were seeded into the round of 32 and might play someone like Louisiana Tech to make the sweet sixteen in those days.

A closer look shows just how wide the margin really is.

You can make those records/stats favor whichever coach you want them to favor, that's the point. The coaches are very close, especially if you take out the '94/95 seasons on Nolan's resume.

NCAA Tournament record - yes, NR's is better, but he also coached more years at Arkansas, and the fields weren't as strong as they were when ES coached here (due to more teams getting in).
On the other hand, ES made the tournament at a higher rate, while at Arkansas, than NR did, and he accomplished that at a time when fewer teams made the tournament field.
When ES was coach, I'm pretty sure conference champs and maybe runners up got in. It was not a weak field. In the recent past didn't Georgia make it with a record either 1 game over or under .500? Teams like UAPB, with losing records, didn't get in in those days. To say the tournament field was tougher for NR vs. ES is a stretch at best, and most likely absurd.

[ErieHog]

You can make those records/stats favor whichever coach you want them to favor, that's the point. The coaches are very close, especially if you take out the '94/95 seasons on Nolan's resume.

NCAA Tournament record - yes, NR's is better, but he also coached more years at Arkansas, and the fields weren't as strong as they were when ES coached here (due to more teams getting in).
On the other hand, ES made the tournament at a higher rate, while at Arkansas, than NR did, and he accomplished that at a time when fewer teams made the tournament field.
When ES was coach, I'm pretty sure conference champs and maybe runners up got in. It was not a weak field. In the recent past didn't Georgia make it with a record either 1 game over or under .500? Teams like UAPB, with losing records, didn't get in in those days. To say the tournament field was tougher for NR vs. ES is a stretch at best, and most likely absurd.

Exclude the two best season in the history of the program?   

Only in Jump Ball can that sort of logic happen.

[Dwight_K_Shrute]

You can make those records/stats favor whichever coach you want them to favor, that's the point. The coaches are very close, especially if you take out the '94/95 seasons on Nolan's resume.

NCAA Tournament record - yes, NR's is better, but he also coached more years at Arkansas, and the fields weren't as strong as they were when ES coached here (due to more teams getting in).
On the other hand, ES made the tournament at a higher rate, while at Arkansas, than NR did, and he accomplished that at a time when fewer teams made the tournament field.
When ES was coach, I'm pretty sure conference champs and maybe runners up got in. It was not a weak field. In the recent past didn't Georgia make it with a record either 1 game over or under .500? Teams like UAPB, with losing records, didn't get in in those days. To say the tournament field was tougher for NR vs. ES is a stretch at best, and most likely absurd.

While it may have been easier to get to the tourney when Nolan was coach once field was expanded, it was more difficult to get to Elite 8 or FF because you had to win more games to get there. 

Since you want to bring up the fact that Nolan coached at the UofA longer let's just compare the first 11 years since Eddie was only here 11 and no one knows what the rest of his tenure may have been like if he had stayed. 

Hey look I did exactly that about a month ago.  Let's see how that comparison comes out.

Both great one is better.   When a debate arises about 2 NFL QB's the matter is usually settled by how many rings one has.

Let's compare the first 11 years of each coach since Eddie was here 11 seasons and how each did in the post season.

NCAA appearances 9 each
Sweet 16's Nolan 6  Eddie 4
Elite 8's Nolan 4 Eddie 2
Final Fours:  Nolan 3 Eddie 1
Championship games Nolan 2 Eddie 0
Championships Nolan 1 Eddie 0

Total Wins in 11 years Nolan 272 Eddie 260

The only number Eddie wins is winning % 78% to 74% and back to the original premise, people don't care about winning % when it's that close go to the NCAA tourney.

Both great one better and has an accomplishment that stands on it's own with no debate.  One got to the biggest stage more often  and one won the ultimate prize.

Also as someone else mentioned it's funny how the Sutton huggers want to throw out Nolan's best to years, obviously to fit the narrative that Eddie was some how better.  Keep trying.  This isn't a 50-50 agruement, it's not 60-40, or 70-30, it's about 84-16 but I'm sure you can find that one little nugget to support your stance.

[hogfan10]

Exclude the two best season in the history of the program?   

Only in Jump Ball can that sort of logic happen.

It was done to point out how close the two coaches were.

Take something out of context, only in Jump Ball can that sort of thing happen.

[hogfan10]

While it may have been easier to get to the tourney when Nolan was coach once field was expanded, it was more difficult to get to Elite 8 or FF because you had to win more games to get there. 

Since you want to bring up the fact that Nolan coached at the UofA longer let's just compare the first 11 years since Eddie was only here 11 and no one knows what the rest of his tenure may have been like if he had stayed. 

Hey look I did exactly that about a month ago.  Let's see how that comparison comes out.

Also as someone else mentioned it's funny how the Sutton huggers want to throw out Nolan's best to years, obviously to fit the narrative that Eddie was some how better.  Keep trying.  This isn't a 50-50 agruement, it's not 60-40, or 70-30, it's about 84-16 but I'm sure you can find that one little nugget to support your stance.

I guess your another whose strong points aren't reading and comprehending.
I'll say it again for the comprehending challenged (yourself included), I voted for Richardson as Arkansas' best basketball coach in the history of the program.

I'm not trying to support a stance in favor of Sutton, but for some reason, some of you feel you must diminish what Sutton did/accomplished at Arkansas to enforce what Richardson did at Arkansas.

So once again I'll say it just for you, and slowly. Here it goes, try not to miss it:

IN MY OPINION NOLAN RICHARDSON IS, AS OF NOW, THE BEST BASKETBALL COACH IN ARKANSAS' BASKETBALL HISTORY.

[Locutus_of_Boar]

Eugene:  1 Final Four, 0 losing seasons
           113-60/62-22
           SWC (2)
           2 of 7 years NCAA tourney teams - when the whole NCAA tourney was 8 teams.

[hogfan10]

Eugene:  1 Final Four, 0 losing seasons
           113-60/62-22
           SWC (2)
           2 of 7 years NCAA tourney teams - when the whole NCAA tourney was 8 teams.

I assume that's a former Razorback coach, if so, I guess he deserves some consideration also.

[Uncle SI]

Nolan hands down.
Eddie might have better winning percentage but fans only care about NCs. We have 1 NC and 1 runner up with Nolan. Nice resume IMO.

[98hogs]

Stupid Poll, You already knew the answer

[Locutus_of_Boar]

I assume that's a former Razorback coach, if so, I guess he deserves some consideration also.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Lambert_(coach)

Arkansas grad and coach 1942-1948.  Also coached at Memphis State and Alabama.

1945 Final Four.  Would have made it in 1944 as well but the team was involved in a bad car crash on old highway 71 and had to withdrawl from the 44 tourney.  The NCAA picked Utah as the Hogs replacement and the Utes went on to win the whole thing.

Along with Francis Schmidt and Glen Rose, Lambert, Sutton, and Richardson collectively are head and shoulders above the crowd as Arkansas basketball coaches.

[dgfclt]

Stupid Poll, You already knew the answer

Sorry to bother you.

[bigredone]

This has been a lot more fun to be involved in and read through than all the crap about how bad of a coach Mike supposedly is hasn't it.

It is funny to see the contortionists on here turning themselves into pretzels trying to find a way that Sutton can match Nolan at Arkansas. Sutton clearly comes in second to Nolan in the ranks of Arkansas basketball coaches and the poll indicates how all but the tiniest group see it.

It doesn't mean that Sutton was a bad coach but according to his staunchest supporters he clearly did less with more during his tenure. Apparently he had better players than Nolan but somehow could never win on the biggest stage despite his advantage.

Again, it has been fun to argue about something that is a positive either way and not listening to someone wanting someone fired.

[ErieHog]

It was done to point out how close the two coaches were.

Take something out of context, only in Jump Ball can that sort of thing happen.

That makes it, by definition *NOT CLOSE*.  Not understanding context,  by way of removal of anything sane-- only in Jump Ball.

[hogfan10]

That makes it, by definition *NOT CLOSE*.  Not understanding context,  by way of removal of anything sane-- only in Jump Ball.

Taking it out of context, would be to imply I was using it to prove Sutton was a better coach than Richardson (which is what you were doing). I've previously stated no less than 3 times, in this thread alone, that I personally believe that NR was the better coach while at Arkansas. I was just trying to show why some might feel otherwise. If you couldn't figure that out, then your the one that has a problem with context and comprehension.

[ErieHog]

Taking it out of context, would be to imply I was using it to prove Sutton was a better coach than Richardson (which is what you were doing). I've previously stated no less than 3 times, in this thread alone, that I personally believe that NR was the better coach while at Arkansas. I was just trying to show why some might feel otherwise. If you couldn't figure that out, then your the one that has a problem with context and comprehension.

You cannot create context by trying to find a minimum downward adjustment to make them seem more equitable.  That's nonsense.

[hogfan10]

You cannot create context by trying to find a minimum downward adjustment to make them seem more equitable.  That's nonsense.

This whole thread, and practically every thread on Hogville, involves posters "creating context" to further support their argument. If it isn't/wasn't done that would make for a pretty uninteresting message board. The board is for people to talk sports and voice their opinions, however they reached their opinions is what is being discussed.

Surely you have not made 39,500+ posts on this board without knowing that.