North Dakota to sue NCAA over its "Fighting Sioux" nickname

[A Boy Named Sue E.]

Good to see they aren't going to take this lying down. If Florida St. gets to continue using "Seminoles" why shouldn't N.D. get to keep using "Fighting Sioux?" http://sports.yahoo.com/top/news?slug=ap-indiannickname-ncaalawsuit&prov=ap&type=lgns

[jvegashawg]

Good to see they aren't going to take this lying down. If Florida St. gets to continue using "Seminoles" why shouldn't N.D. get to keep using "Fighting Sioux?" http://sports.yahoo.com/top/news?slug=ap-indiannickname-ncaalawsuit&prov=ap&type=lgns

$$$$

[hogsNbeer]

Good to see they aren't going to take this lying down. If Florida St. gets to continue using "Seminoles" why shouldn't N.D. get to keep using "Fighting Sioux?" http://sports.yahoo.com/top/news?slug=ap-indiannickname-ncaalawsuit&prov=ap&type=lgns

$$$$

This is soooo stupid....Has anybody ever heard of someone with Indian Ethnicity upset over the use of these mascots....?   I haven't .....  This should be a STATE thing, why is the NCAA getting involved.......?

[hogsrmyfav36]

You know, I just don't get this.  I haven't talked to one Native American about this who views this as offensive.  One guy I talked to said that the only thing that bothers him occasionally is when some of the traditions schools attach to their mascot name are culturally incorrect.  It's political correctness run amok! (sp?)

[hogsrmyfav36]

Do we have anyone on here that's Native American?  (And no, I don't want to hear from all of you that are 18% Indian on your mother's father's side, etc.)

[Patch]

I'm all for UND keeping their mascot and name, but for those who say they've never heard someone complain about the mascot, it says in the article that some local Native Americans want them to change. That said, the NCAA needs to butt the hell out. how does a committee of rich guys in Indianapolis determine what is offensive and what isn't. Why is Fighting Sioux offensive and Fighting Irish not?

[ColinRagan]

I am offended by Notre Dames mascot.  It promotes negative stereotypes of people of Irish descent as a bunch of brawling hooligans.  Everyone knows we only brawl when we've been drinking!

[oldfart]

I am a card-carrying native american...  and i think the whole damn issue is soooo stupid...

Do we have anyone on here that's Native American?  (And no, I don't want to hear from all of you that are 18% Indian on your mother's father's side, etc.)

[oldfart]

which is how often?

I am offended by Notre Dames mascot.  It promotes negative stereotypes of people of Irish descent as a bunch of brawling hooligans.  Everyone knows we only brawl when we've been drinking!

[gumby013]

OK, here I am pretty qualified to comment.  As I am a UND alum. 

The biggest problem UND is having is that about 10 years ago they got a $100 million donation for a new hockey arena.  They dropped it all into a state of the art 9,000 seat palace.  All leather seats, marble floors, video boards everywhere, luxury suites ringing the rink, and a training facility better than the USOC complex in Colorado Springs.  And everything, from the marble floors to each leather seat is inlaid with the Fighting Sioux logo.  If the current ruling stands, they will have to cover or remove each and every one of the tens of thousands of Sioux Indian heads in the place.  So, they would basically have to tear the whole place up to appease the NCAA.  That is the real reason for UND's beef with the NCAA.  $$$


Here is a link to the Ralph Engelstad Arena  www.theralph.com

[CampuspostmanHOG]

Ok, who is Ralph Engelstad?

[gumby013]

He was a Las Vegas casino developer.  He died a couple of years ago.

[CampuspostmanHOG]

Interesting fellow, but apparently liked the Nazis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Engelstad

(I did a yahoo search)

[Arkiejared]

"Veteran gaming executive, entrepreneur and humanitarian Ralph Engelstad, who built and owned the Imperial Palace Hotel and Casinos on the Las Vegas Strip and in Biloxi, Mississippi"

http://www.theralph.com/new2/Arena_Info_Section/RalphEngelstad.htm

[Skip Foreplay]

Good thing us folks of German stock never get to name a college mascot...I'll let you y'all pick the names.

[CampuspostmanHOG]

Engelstad was also a somewhat controversial figure. He raised accusations of being sympathetic to Nazis owing to his collection of Nazi memorabilia in the casino, including a painting of himself dressed in Nazi uniform (captioned "to Adolf from Ralphie"), a painting of Hitler with the reverse caption, and the cars of Nazi leaders. On April 20th in 1986 and 1988, he hosted birthday parties for Adolf Hitler at his casino in Las Vegas which featured bartenders in T-shirts reading "Adolf Hitler — European tour 1939-45". Because of this, in 1989, the Nevada Gaming Commission fined Engelstad $1.5 million "for actions that damaged the reputation and image of Nevada's gaming industry." Engelstad did apologize for the parties, but the row was not to be his last controversial move.[1]


North Dakota Fighting Sioux logo, controversial like many Native American sports names.Engelstad embroiled himself in the fight over the Fighting Sioux logo when he built a $100 million arena on the University of North Dakota campus for the Fighting Sioux hockey program. Midway in its construction, Engelstad threatened to withdraw his funding if the sports teams were renamed. The logo was then placed in thousands of instances in the arena, making the prospect of removal a costly measure. Later, Engelstad placed the stadium under private (rather than University) management and stipulated that the Fighting Sioux motif be kept indefinitely. An Engelstad family trust continues to own the arena and rents it to the University.[2]

Engelstad died in 2002, after a lengthy battle with cancer.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Engelstad";

[94 Hawg]

wonder if this would work for a new mascot:
UND Fighting Sue

[gumby013]

wonder if this would work for a new mascot:
UND Fighting Sue

UND's old rival NDSU already uses that one. 

[maniax22bolts20]

I am a card-carrying native american...  and i think the whole damn issue is soooo stupid...

Do we have anyone on here that's Native American?  (And no, I don't want to hear from all of you that are 18% Indian on your mother's father's side, etc.)

Agreed. Parts of the NCAA responsible for the witchhunts and oppression of its member schools like this should be abolished by force.

[Bacons Rebellion]

Here's the letter from North Dakota to the NCAA. Pretty good reading if you want to hear a college president rake the NCAA over the coals.

http://www.universityrelations.und.edu/logoappeal/openletter_6-07-06.html

[dana caldwell]

don't see how this is any of the ncaa's business.

i think terms like the Fighting Illini, Braves, etc., that are complimentary, are just  fine.

don't care for the likes of Savages, Redmen, etc., that have a negative connotation.

[oldfart]

way to go!!!!!  that is one hell of a letter.....

Here's the letter from North Dakota to the NCAA. Pretty good reading if you want to hear a college president rake the NCAA over the coals.

http://www.universityrelations.und.edu/logoappeal/openletter_6-07-06.html

[RebelliousHog]

Here's the letter from North Dakota to the NCAA. Pretty good reading if you want to hear a college president rake the NCAA over the coals.

http://www.universityrelations.und.edu/logoappeal/openletter_6-07-06.html

Good read. Being 25% Cherokee Indian,  I have wondered about this whole thing. Basically it is the PC Police at work.

[RedSatinHog]

The name which stared out at me almost immediately was that of Myles Brand.  yes, that is the same Myles Brand who unceremoniously ran Bobby Knight from IU shortly after his (Brand's) arrival in Bloomington.

Apparently, he has annointed himself as the NCAA's Chief of the Morality Police, and his standard and interpretation of the same is the only thing which seems to matter anymore. 

If the school had named itself the Redskins or Savages, I could understand the hullaballoo.  However, naming itself after a specific tribe seems totally harmless, and I have to believe that the only people complaining about it would be folks who are chasing a spotlight.

[gumby013]

In case anyone here wants to see what is causing all the fuss.

[clew]

That letter is pretty damning to the NCAA.  I think that UND has a legitimate case and they would easily beat the NCAA in a lawsuit.  My guess is that the NCAA kowtows and the Fighting Sioux stay the Fighting Sioux.  The bit about whether the NCAA had enough jurisdiction to make the state change its name from Dakota (what the [some] Sioux called themselves) was priceless.  If they [UND] press this issue, the NCAA may ultimately lose the whole thing.  I don't believe they truly have the authority to make a college change its name.  That should only happen through a civil suit against the college by the representative groups (i.e. the Sioux tribe v UND).  The NCAA may have the right not to allow them to participate in NCAA athletics, but UND would then have the right to sue the NCAA for a loss of revenue if they were unfairly prohibited from play (post-season or otherwise).

[DirkPiggler]

OK, here I am pretty qualified to comment.  As I am a UND alum. 

The biggest problem UND is having is that about 10 years ago they got a $100 million donation for a new hockey arena.  They dropped it all into a state of the art 9,000 seat palace.  All leather seats, marble floors, video boards everywhere, luxury suites ringing the rink, and a training facility better than the USOC complex in Colorado Springs.  And everything, from the marble floors to each leather seat is inlaid with the Fighting Sioux logo.  If the current ruling stands, they will have to cover or remove each and every one of the tens of thousands of Sioux Indian heads in the place.  So, they would basically have to tear the whole place up to appease the NCAA.  That is the real reason for UND's beef with the NCAA.  $$$


Here is a link to the Ralph Engelstad Arena  www.theralph.com

I remember seeing a special on this a few years back, either on 60 Minutes or Outside the Lines or some such show.   Wasn't there some stipulation in the donation that Engelstad retained ownership of the arena, and should they change the mascot he would take it away from the university?

[lyon98]

Mississippi College will remain the "Choctaws" with the blessing of the Choctaw Nation. Those Baptist bring a lot of money to the tribal casino. Best restaurant in Mississippi is located there also.

[gumby013]

OK, here I am pretty qualified to comment.  As I am a UND alum. 

The biggest problem UND is having is that about 10 years ago they got a $100 million donation for a new hockey arena.  They dropped it all into a state of the art 9,000 seat palace.  All leather seats, marble floors, video boards everywhere, luxury suites ringing the rink, and a training facility better than the USOC complex in Colorado Springs.  And everything, from the marble floors to each leather seat is inlaid with the Fighting Sioux logo.  If the current ruling stands, they will have to cover or remove each and every one of the tens of thousands of Sioux Indian heads in the place.  So, they would basically have to tear the whole place up to appease the NCAA.  That is the real reason for UND's beef with the NCAA.  $$$


Here is a link to the Ralph Engelstad Arena  www.theralph.com

I remember seeing a special on this a few years back, either on 60 Minutes or Outside the Lines or some such show.   Wasn't there some stipulation in the donation that Engelstad retained ownership of the arena, and should they change the mascot he would take it away from the university?

Correct.  The Engelstad family trust has ownership of the arena and leases it to the university.

[lyon98]

I took the virtual tour of the Engelstad Arena and it is one hell of an arena. UND has every right to be proud of that. I will remember what Engelstad did and if ever I have enough money to leave something like this, my name will be as prominent as his.

The ncaa should appreciate Belhaven College's actions when they accepted men and developed an athletic program. It is a Presbyterian school and has historic ties to the PC of Scotland. The teams were named the "Clansmen." After a year or so, the school decided to rename them and I can't think of their current name. John Brady of lsu fame is one of their grads.

[cbjagman]

This whole Indian thing with the NCAA is so asinine! As if the NCAA doesn't have a ton of other far more serious things to address. How about several players out at UsC apparently receiving special housing benefits? Nah, can't do anything to stop the Trojans from doing anything and everything to get a leg up on others. Besides, just do whatever and apply for automatic reinstatement. Then again, if you're not really all that influential like the UND then just bend over for the kicking they're going to give you over a mascot's name. I just hope that the ACLU or some other such organization doesn't hire a lawyer to sue on behalf of all those poor exploited animals whose names are used by schools such as the U of A.

[gumby013]

The bit about whether the NCAA had enough jurisdiction to make the state change its name from Dakota (what the [some] Sioux called themselves) was priceless.

I never thought of that part.  "Introducing your Unitversity of North....uhh....Snowmen!"

Of course that one is a possible drug reference and probably not allowed either.