My Perspective on Coaches Has Changed

[hogtheball]

I never glorified Bobby Knight.  But, he has won 3 championships and manages to graduate over 95% of his players.  I wouldn't want to send my kid to play for the Knightster, but I wouldn't want him playing for Nolan either.

Since you brought it up, what has Nolan done in his coaching career that Bobby Knight hasn't done?  I'm curious as to why you think one is so much better than the other.

[Fatty McGee]

I don't think one is so much better than the other.  That's why I found it an odd comparison. 

[hogtheball]

Both have been extremely successful coaching careers.  One has the all-time worst graduation rate of student-athletes, the other has the best.  I thought it was a natural comparison, but then my 1-yr.-old is screaming in her crib right now and I'm probably not exactly sane at the moment.

[othermac]

i am glad nolan is gone and dont want him back no matter how much we lose. i aint kissing his butt just because he wins some basketball games. stan is just a kid trying to find his way, i bet one day he does, because he can flat out recruit the top hs players in the game, he just doesnt have this coaching thing down yet. when you have talent you dont always have to be the best coach. besides alot of coaching comes from experience, let the green pea keep on bringing in those 4 star recruits and figure out what he's doing along the way, he just might be the whole package when it comes to a coach.

[Tmac813]

Just a question?  Is the coach hired to win Basketball games, or babysit?  If that were the case we'd all be coaches.  The man knew how to motivate players to do the things on the court that was necessary to win BASKETBALL GAMES!  Get over the hate for NR.  The program suffered, because of his comments, but the only thing that changed was that the U of A was losing games.  Man enough about a guy that has not coached here in 4 yrs.  Any history students our there?

[hogtheball]

Just a question?  Is the coach hired to win Basketball games, or babysit?  If that were the case we'd all be coaches.  The man knew how to motivate players to do the things on the court that was necessary to win BASKETBALL GAMES!  Get over the hate for NR.  The program suffered, because of his comments, but the only thing that changed was that the U of A was losing games.  Man enough about a guy that has not coached here in 4 yrs.  Any history students our there?

There you have it, Tmac813 has just used his first post to provide us with his wisdom and insight into a subject that we've been pondering for quite some time.  After reading a thread that included Nolan, he felt like he should put in his two cents worth and ask us not to speak about it any more.  Spread the word, Tmac has spoken and thus ended to subject. 

[JJHog]

If you ran a business and had a chance to hire a cracker jack salesman but he was known to be a jerk, disrupt the office, be a pain to be around the office and occasionally bad mouthed his employer, would you still hire him?

[WilsonHog]

If you ran a business and had a chance to hire a cracker jack salesman but he was known to be a jerk, disrupt the office, be a pain to be around the office and occasionally bad mouthed his employer, would you still hire him?

Will he make me money?

[Tmac813]

Alright u called TMac out.  What coach in modern University of Arkansas athletics has won a National Championship in a major sport?  Please don't give me that Track and Field argument.  That being Basketball, Football, even baseball?  NR.  Listen guys, I'm not a NR supporter.  I can not like u and tell the truth.  I hate the end of his tenure at Arkansas, but the fact remains 1994 was one of the best yrs in recent Razorback history.  It should be obvious to the casual observer that the man wore out his welcome, but was very tolerable, as long as on Tournament selection Sunday we were looking at seedings, instead of the bubble.  I asked that history question, because if u notice anytime an individual gets bigger than Razorback Basketball, or Football, for that matter their days on the hill are numbered.  The exact same thing happened to Ken Hatfield.

[othermac]

will he make you enough money to cover the lawsuit he files agst you?

[WilsonHog]

It should be obvious to the casual observer that the man wore out his welcome, but was very tolerable, as long as on Tournament selection Sunday we were looking at seedings, instead of the bubble. 

I don't quite agree on the Kenny Hatfield analogy, but you are dead on here.

Need proof?  How many people did Nolan put in the seats at BWA AFTER he called Arkansas fans "turds and posters?"

Nolan's statements became an issue for one reason, and one reason only - his teams stopped winning. Had his 1990s run continued, he would STILL be at UA, because wins trump most everything.

[othermac]

i cant see the comparison between nolan and hatfield, i always thought hatfield was humble as coaches go, nolan was anything but.

[Tmac813]

Yea, as far as personality, but I"m making the comparison, based on the performance, of both coaches teams.  Ken Hatfield did not have Nolan's unruly dispostion, but let's face it we won allot of football games on his watch, and we were very close to an undefeated season(1989) 11-1 under him.  Troy Aikmen and UCLA spoiled a great season for us.  After that season look at what happened.  BTW guys I bleed Razorback red.

[othermac]

so you are suggesting that anyone who threatens frank as the king of ark athletics is on the short wait out of fayetteville?

[Tmac813]

U got it bro.  The only reason that NR was around as long as he was, is because, of that National Championship.  Why do u think HDN can have two seasons of "transition" and still keep his job?  He will never be bigger than Arkansas Football!  Unless we play in the BCS and win.  You'll see the scrutiny and questions come in upon that event occurring...

[othermac]

i am on the outside looking in but i never did understand the hatfield thing, always heard between how other fans didnt like his style of play and politics between him and frank led him to take the clemson job and whenver i heard nolan being interviewed it was like someone dragging their fingernails across chalkboard, it always left me with a bad feeling and so i see his personal agendas leading to his demise, i dont see frank being threatened by him, he was not an ambassador for the u of a.

[Tmac813]

An ambassador?  Winning a NC, probably won allot of hearts and minds.  I don't know all the specifics of the Ken Hatfield issue, but he was a great coach.  If the bottom line is winning, than who cares, if they're a nice guy.  I have to pose this question.  There is no bigger jerk in College Coaching than Bobby Knight, but how come he gets a pass on his boorish behavior, but somehow NR is Satan's helper?

[hogtheball]

An ambassador?  Winning a NC, probably won allot of hearts and minds.  I don't know all the specifics of the Ken Hatfield issue, but he was a great coach.  If the bottom line is winning, than who cares, if they're a nice guy.  I have to pose this question.  There is no bigger jerk in College Coaching than Bobby Knight, but how come he gets a pass on his boorish behavior, but somehow NR is Satan's helper?

Uh....Bobby Knight lost his job, remember.  And he got fired after 3 national championships.  It would be pretty hard to say he gets a pass - are you talking about the same Bobby Knight we know to be the most contreversial, stubborn coach in NCAA history?

[hogtheball]

Sorry, tmac, not picking on you or anything.

[Hog in MO]

Some of you guys want a guy to win but don't want to know his dirty laundry, it does not work that way today. If it were common knowledge Eddie drank a lot while at UA, he would not have had the positive image he has.

The Uof A derserves good men that can win. period.

Why does the UA "deserve good men that can win" more than any other school?

The simple fact is that everyone has skeletons. If a man lives life long enough he will have things in his past (or maybe even present, for that matter) that he would just as soon not everyone know about. 

So what if Eddie Sutton drank while he was at UA? With the success he brought to UA and the enjoyment he gave me personally, he could have drank a fifth of Jack Daniels a night and I wouldn't have cared.  In fact, it wouldn't be any of my business.

Graduation rate? You know, I'm sure that there will be several students from Little Rock who will enter UA as freshmen next fall. Shouldn't I keep up with their graduation rate, if I REALLY cared about young people graduating? Fact is, I couldn't care less. I'll leave that to their parents to worry about. Same with basketball and football players.

Sorry, call me an idealist, but as long as I'm rooting for the Hogs with my 3-year-old I do care what kind of people he grows up rooting for.  To some people, sports isn't an end in itself but a means to a bigger end.  I'd rather have my kid grow up learning the difference between Walter Payton and Terrell Owens,  or the difference between Dennis Rodman and John Stockton.  Some teams learn how to win games, others - rare as they might be - learn to win even more.

I agree, to an extent, that all public figures have a certain amount of responsibility as role models.  But these days nothing is private or sacred for anyone in the publie eye and many of our expectations are unrealistic.  I couldn't imagine having everything i did or said put up for public scrutiny.  I believe that we expect these guys to live up to standards that most of us don't live up to - or at least haven't always lived up to. 
And John Stockton was notoriously one of the dirtiest players in the NBA - maybe not a freak like Dennis Rodman but not exactly the great role model I think you're looking for.  Another example of the way perception is twisted.  Many of the people that we believe are squeaky clean are actually not.  I'd never put Rodman up as an example of ANYTHING right - but at least we knew exactly what we were dealing with.  Image is not always reality.

[HognotinMemphis]

Both have been extremely successful coaching careers.  One has the all-time worst graduation rate of student-athletes, the other has the best.  I thought it was a natural comparison, but then my 1-yr.-old is screaming in her crib right now and I'm probably not exactly sane at the moment.

Breastfeed it. What are you waiting for?

[Tmac813]

No need to apologize.  This is the forum.  I think in my estimation, this is the way for Hogfans, to vent their frustrations with the current state of U of A athletics.  No topic is off limits to me.  I just want my hogs to win.  If I don't  learn something from the discussion I'm not evolving in my thinking.  The only thing that offends me is to be asked is "this going to offend u?"  Now back to the Bobby Knight example.  Look at all the things he did during his tenure at Indiana?  What, other than opening his fat trap, did NR do, that compared with choking a student?  Everyone is delusional, if they can't even fathom that the AD has turned Arkansas athletics into a business.  That's not a bad thing, but at least u know what were having to overcome to stop me from throwing things at the T.V. during hog games...

[hogtheball]

Some of you guys want a guy to win but don't want to know his dirty laundry, it does not work that way today. If it were common knowledge Eddie drank a lot while at UA, he would not have had the positive image he has.

The Uof A derserves good men that can win. period.

Why does the UA "deserve good men that can win" more than any other school?

The simple fact is that everyone has skeletons. If a man lives life long enough he will have things in his past (or maybe even present, for that matter) that he would just as soon not everyone know about. 

So what if Eddie Sutton drank while he was at UA? With the success he brought to UA and the enjoyment he gave me personally, he could have drank a fifth of Jack Daniels a night and I wouldn't have cared.  In fact, it wouldn't be any of my business.

Graduation rate? You know, I'm sure that there will be several students from Little Rock who will enter UA as freshmen next fall. Shouldn't I keep up with their graduation rate, if I REALLY cared about young people graduating? Fact is, I couldn't care less. I'll leave that to their parents to worry about. Same with basketball and football players.

Sorry, call me an idealist, but as long as I'm rooting for the Hogs with my 3-year-old I do care what kind of people he grows up rooting for.  To some people, sports isn't an end in itself but a means to a bigger end.  I'd rather have my kid grow up learning the difference between Walter Payton and Terrell Owens,  or the difference between Dennis Rodman and John Stockton.  Some teams learn how to win games, others - rare as they might be - learn to win even more.

I agree, to an extent, that all public figures have a certain amount of responsibility as role models.  But these days nothing is private or sacred for anyone in the publie eye and many of our expectations are unrealistic.  I couldn't imagine having everything i did or said put up for public scrutiny.  I believe that we expect these guys to live up to standards that most of us don't live up to - or at least haven't always lived up to. 
And John Stockton was notoriously one of the dirtiest players in the NBA - maybe not a freak like Dennis Rodman but not exactly the great role model I think you're looking for.  Another example of the way perception is twisted.  Many of the people that we believe are squeaky clean are actually not.  I'd never put Rodman up as an example of ANYTHING right - but at least we knew exactly what we were dealing with.  Image is not always reality.

O.K., calling John Stockton not worthy to be a role model is crossing my line - big time. Other than being a humble, honest, hard-working, over-achieving, work your ass off every single day not matter what happens man, he was also one of the two or three best point guards to ever plays.

Role model for my son???   Um, let's see would I want my son to be the kind of guy who only misses 22 games in an 18 year career, playing with a broken nose, broken fingers, broken toes, a broken rib, and a couple hundred other minor injuries to uphold his commitement to his team-mates?  Yes.

Would I want my son to try his best to achieve his dreams even though he is too short, too slow, can't jump high enough, and isn't recruited by any of the big-time teams?  Yes.

Would I want my son to become a drug-free family guy with his priorited in order, even though he's surrounded by every type of distraction imaginable?  yes.

Would I mind if a few inferior players called him dirty because he sets better picks and screens than any guard in the NBA?  No.

Jordan, Barkley, and several others have said they would rather go into a game with Stockton than any other point guard.  Role model?  Absolutely!

[Hog in MO]

Some of you guys want a guy to win but don't want to know his dirty laundry, it does not work that way today. If it were common knowledge Eddie drank a lot while at UA, he would not have had the positive image he has.

The Uof A derserves good men that can win. period.

Why does the UA "deserve good men that can win" more than any other school?

The simple fact is that everyone has skeletons. If a man lives life long enough he will have things in his past (or maybe even present, for that matter) that he would just as soon not everyone know about. 

So what if Eddie Sutton drank while he was at UA? With the success he brought to UA and the enjoyment he gave me personally, he could have drank a fifth of Jack Daniels a night and I wouldn't have cared.  In fact, it wouldn't be any of my business.

Graduation rate? You know, I'm sure that there will be several students from Little Rock who will enter UA as freshmen next fall. Shouldn't I keep up with their graduation rate, if I REALLY cared about young people graduating? Fact is, I couldn't care less. I'll leave that to their parents to worry about. Same with basketball and football players.

Sorry, call me an idealist, but as long as I'm rooting for the Hogs with my 3-year-old I do care what kind of people he grows up rooting for.  To some people, sports isn't an end in itself but a means to a bigger end.  I'd rather have my kid grow up learning the difference between Walter Payton and Terrell Owens,  or the difference between Dennis Rodman and John Stockton.  Some teams learn how to win games, others - rare as they might be - learn to win even more.

I agree, to an extent, that all public figures have a certain amount of responsibility as role models.  But these days nothing is private or sacred for anyone in the publie eye and many of our expectations are unrealistic.  I couldn't imagine having everything i did or said put up for public scrutiny.  I believe that we expect these guys to live up to standards that most of us don't live up to - or at least haven't always lived up to. 
And John Stockton was notoriously one of the dirtiest players in the NBA - maybe not a freak like Dennis Rodman but not exactly the great role model I think you're looking for.  Another example of the way perception is twisted.  Many of the people that we believe are squeaky clean are actually not.  I'd never put Rodman up as an example of ANYTHING right - but at least we knew exactly what we were dealing with.  Image is not always reality.

O.K., calling John Stockton not worthy to be a role model is crossing my line - big time. Other than being a humble, honest, hard-working, over-achieving, work your ass off every single day not matter what happens man, he was also one of the two or three best point guards to ever plays.

Role model for my son???   Um, let's see would I want my son to be the kind of guy who only misses 22 games in an 18 year career, playing with a broken nose, broken fingers, broken toes, a broken rib, and a couple hundred other minor injuries to uphold his commitement to his team-mates?  Yes.

Would I want my son to try his best to achieve his dreams even though he is too short, too slow, can't jump high enough, and isn't recruited by any of the big-time teams?  Yes.

Would I want my son to become a drug-free family guy with his priorited in order, even though he's surrounded by every type of distraction imaginable?  yes.

Would I mind if a few inferior players called him dirty because he sets better picks and screens than any guard in the NBA?  No.

Jordan, Barkley, and several others have said they would rather go into a game with Stockton than any other point guard.  Role model?  Absolutely!

Take a chill pill dude.  Get past your John Stockton man crush and see the point I'm trying to get across.  Nobody can live up to the expectations that we want to put on them as role models, celebrities, whatever you want to call it.  For everything you just stated about Stockton - is there anything at all you know about him personally?  How he treats his family? What he does in his home when you aren't watching?  NO.  I'm not saying that he is anything other than a great husband, father, etc. - but you don't know that for sure and you don't need to know that because its none of your business.  Its nobody's business. 

All we know about these people is what we are allowed to know through the media and that is slanted based on what kind of story they are trying to get out.  Stop buying into the hype and expecting humans to be anything but human. 

[hogtheball]

You're right, Stockton is probably a murderous anti-semite.  IT's just the giant John Stockton publicity machine that keeps his image clean. I'm humbled to have been in the presence of such insight, if only for a few posts.  I'll tell my kid not to idolize those in life whose actions seem to portray the things he deems as important. 

Oh, and to this point, Stockton has lived up to the expectations fans had of him and much more.  Until you know different, your point doesn't really make much sense.

[hogtheball]

How can I not have a Stockton man-crush...it's the short shorts, dude.

[hogtheball]

Wow, what a dismally sad 400th post. 

[Oklahawg]

I erased a big chunk of this. Too many folks have sedimented ideas about the entire Nolan Era and Nolan's role in his own downfall.

A few points, though, that can't be overlooked:
1. He was dead-on when he criticized the NCAA regarding graduation rates. Darnell Robinson earned more his first two years in Europe than I will in a lifetime. Fair enough. It doesn't let Nolan off the hook for the end of the bench guys for whom even the most modest "pro" league overseas was a reach. These guys are the ones who needed to use their time at UA to get them into a better position in life than the one from which they came.
2. A decent SID office would have dispatched someone to travel with Nolan for the purpose of taking his message and honing it into one that played well to the media. Nolan had a good message to be heard. He lacked the political skills to massage the message into something that the fairest of Arkansans could stomach.
3. Nolan was a grown man when he uttered the things that led to his downfall at UA. He didn't understand the movement underfoot to bring him down. A poster above mentioned Broyles not wanting anyone more powerful in his department. Might have some truth there. Arkansas was not ready for its greatest hero to be a black man. Still isn't, but Nolan (warts and all) helped get the state ready for that moment. Summary: Nolan shot himself in the foot, true. But, he had others helping him, and he didn't figure that out until it was too late.

Bottomline, BWA should be "Nolan Richardson Court at Bud Walton Arena". I will stand by that even though many have issues with it.

Success makes us forget our criticisms. Look at HDN over the past 4 months!! Hiring a couple of quality assistants and keeping recruiting from being the worst of the integrated era has made many willing to overlook lingering concerns many still have over his tenure at UA.

[Tmac813]

OklaHawg Get's it.  This a lesson ladies and gentlemen in how to b!tch as a hog fan with substance.  The man is dead on with that post.  NR needs to read that one.  I think the pink elephant in the room is race with the whole NR thing.  Why do u guys think we got stuck with SH.  Lawsuit looming - Black coach hired.  Even an average one at best.  Cmon my fellow hog fans think outside the box! 

[whatsshakinbacon]

One thing being batted around is that Stan cannot be fired because he is african american.  At this point only the technicalities of the case are being appealed, the case is all but lost for Nolan.  What we do with Stan Heath is now largely irrelevant.

I realize that I am taking this down a slightly different path than the intent of the thread, but some attorney-types out there would be appreciated if they dissect exactly where we are.

Bacon out...