Take a Look at This

[The Hogfather]

NCAA Tournament Record from 2010-Current (affiliation at the time of the NCAAT):

SEC:  34-15 (69%)
Big 10:  47-28 (63%)
ACC:  35-23 (60%)
Pac 12:  22-16 (58%)
Big East:  50-38 (57%)
Big XII:  33-28 (54%)
A10:  18-20 (47%---only 1 season with an above .500 record)
Mountain West:  11-17 (39%)

Hmmmmm..........

[opineonswine]

NCAA Tournament Record from 2010-Current (affiliation at the time of the NCAAT):

SEC:  34-15 (69%)
Big 10:  47-28 (63%)
ACC:  35-23 (60%)
Pac 12:  22-16 (58%)
Big East:  50-38 (57%)
Big XII:  33-28 (54%)
A10:  18-20 (47%---only 1 season with an above .500 record)
Mountain West:  11-17 (39%)

Hmmmmm..........

Hmmmmm....indeed.

[The_Iceman]

NCAA Tournament Record from 2010-Current (affiliation at the time of the NCAAT):

SEC:  34-15 (69%)
Big 10:  47-28 (63%)
ACC:  35-23 (60%)
Pac 12:  22-16 (58%)
Big East:  50-38 (57%)
Big XII:  33-28 (54%)
A10:  18-20 (47%---only 1 season with an above .500 record)
Mountain West:  11-17 (39%)

Hmmmmm..........

But, but the mid-majors are so good now and the SEC is over-rated....

[MGB1229]

NCAA Tournament Record from 2010-Current (affiliation at the time of the NCAAT):

SEC:  34-15 (69%)
Big 10:  47-28 (63%)
ACC:  35-23 (60%)
Pac 12:  22-16 (58%)
Big East:  50-38 (57%)
Big XII:  33-28 (54%)
A10:  18-20 (47%---only 1 season with an above .500 record)
Mountain West:  11-17 (39%)

Hmmmmm..........

Oh come on guys!!  All that shows is how top-heavy the SEC has been for the last 4 years.   

Such a tired argument the talking heads use.  Take the top three teams out of each conference and everybody looks bad.  It would just be splitting hairs to figure out who was worst. 

[-Blu]

I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but I really think because the SEC is so dominate in Football and Baseball, they media gets tired of them owning sports, they try to downplay us in basketball because we aren't as strong in basketball as the other 2. 

[opineonswine]

I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but I really think because the SEC is so dominate in Football and Baseball, they media gets tired of them owning sports, they try to downplay us in basketball because we aren't as strong in basketball as the other 2.

Beginning to certainly look that way.

[collins4heisman]

great stat OP, nice work

[The_Iceman]

One thing to point out...and take from it what you will...the SEC's wins have been against:

Iowa
Umass
Mercer
Kansas State
Wichita State
Albany
Pittsburg

[jabberjawls]

So, if the rest of the SEC is really that good, then those teams that didn't make the NCAA should dominate the NIT, right?

[cityhog]

I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but I really think because the SEC is so dominate in Football and Baseball, they media gets tired of them owning sports, they try to downplay us in basketball because we aren't as strong in basketball as the other 2. 

Thought this the last few years.

[MGB1229]

So, if the rest of the SEC is really that good, then those teams that didn't make the NCAA should dominate the NIT, right?

I think it shows that we aren't as bad as everybody is saying.  Nobody thinks the SEC is the best conference, but it certainly isn't made up of a bunch of slouches either. 

[The Hogfather]

So, if the rest of the SEC is really that good, then those teams that didn't make the NCAA should dominate the NIT, right?

The NIT (and the other non-NCAA Tournaments) is a tricky animal.  In the NCAAT, you know every team is giving max effort.  You are getting every team's best shot.  NIT is hit-or-miss in this regard.  Some "little guys" are thrilled to be there, while the "big guys" couldn't care less. 

[The Hogfather]

I think it shows that we aren't as bad as everybody is saying.  Nobody thinks the SEC is the best conference, but it certainly isn't made up of a bunch of slouches either. 

Exactly.  I'm not saying the SEC is the best basketball league, but every measurable statistic you can use shows that it is not far behind the very top leagues.

[Hogarusa]

Stats are fun.  Since 2010:
Florida: 11-3
Kentucky: 16-2
Tennessee: 6-2

Rest of SEC: 2-6, 0 Sweet 16 appearances (doesn't add up to OP record but you get where I am going).

[Danny J]

I have said the same thing for years. Year after year have the best winning % in the dance.

SEC will continue to get no respect until the league actually starts acting like it cares about basketball.

[The Hogfather]

Stats are fun.  Since 2010:
Florida: 11-3
Kentucky: 16-2
Tennessee: 6-2

Rest of SEC: 2-6, 0 Sweet 16 appearances (doesn't add up to OP record but you get where I am going).

Again:

Exactly.  I'm not saying the SEC is the best basketball league, but every measurable statistic you can use shows that it is not far behind the very top leagues.

What you posted would be basically the same for every conference.  Take the top 3 teams out of each league and their NCAA Tourney record wouldn't be that good.

[bphi11ips]

Exactly.  I'm not saying the SEC is the best basketball league, but every measurable statistic you can use shows that it is not far behind the very top leagues.

You're hedging too much.  The stats tend to show that the SEC over time is second only to the ACC, and they are roughly equivalent over the last twenty years using NCAA tournament records and players currently in the NBA. 

It doesn't matter who is the "best" in any given year.  Some years that's clearer than others.  This year it was not.  The A10 love was inexplicable, and the B12 was not as good as the pundits claimed it was.  The ACC was really down.  The SEC's OOC record was really bad, but otherwise, there is still no reason it received only 3 bids to the tournament except that the committee screwed up.  Why?  Was it influenced too much by matchups and potential ratings?  By talking heads?  Did the talking heads have an agenda?  Don't forget that the ESPN guys doing the talking all season are adversaries of CBS. 

I don't know what happened, but giving the SEC three bids while the A10 got six and the B12 got 7, including a member with a losing conference schedule, is indefensible in all respects except by resort to obscure stats buried in RPI.  That is the big question the NCAA needs to deal with after this year. 

[Hogarusa]

Again:

What you posted would be basically the same for every conference.  Take the top 3 teams out of each league and their NCAA Tourney record wouldn't be that good.

Maybe but I don't have any proof of that.  People are basically taking the elite status of 2 teams from our conference and saying "look how great we are, we deserve your respect."   That's not how it works.  I see 3 teams with 94% of the tourney wins since 2010 and 2 teams with 58% of the Nba players and that's the argument to say the SEC is a strong league.  No sir

[hambone]

So, if the rest of the SEC is really that good, then those teams that didn't make the NCAA should dominate the NIT, right?

Playing in the NIT is like getting a BCS snub in football. The team that feels like it's getting a consolation prize usually loses. The team that feels like it has a chance to prove something will usually win.

[The Hogfather]

Maybe but I don't have any proof of that.  People are basically taking the elite status of 2 teams from our conference and saying "look how great we are, we deserve your respect."   That's not how it works.  I see 3 teams with 94% of the tourney wins since 2010 and 2 teams with 58% of the Nba players and that's the argument to say the SEC is a strong league.  No sir

Sounds like you are just making stuff up and then using that as a basis to say the SEC isn't good.

[hambone]

Maybe but I don't have any proof of that.  People are basically taking the elite status of 2 teams from our conference and saying "look how great we are, we deserve your respect."   That's not how it works.  I see 3 teams with 94% of the tourney wins since 2010 and 2 teams with 58% of the Nba players and that's the argument to say the SEC is a strong league.  No sir

You are the same guy that said the SEC was top heavy because the top 3 teams only lost 8 games against the rest of the conference.

You ignored the fact that the top 3 ACC teams only lost 7 games against the rest of their conference.

You accuse others of being homers, but they continue to show statistical proof to back up their opinions. You have yet to show any statistical proof to back yours.

You remind of the type of people who don't think that anything from their hometown can ever be good. You aren't a homer, but you are just as biased as one, just in the other direction.

[BadHog]

In the last 20 years, Final Four appearances have been dominated by ACC & SEC, 6 championships each (with Syracuse included with ACC) but bids/seedings favor the ACC.

[MGB1229]

Maybe but I don't have any proof of that.  People are basically taking the elite status of 2 teams from our conference and saying "look how great we are, we deserve your respect."   That's not how it works.  I see 3 teams with 94% of the tourney wins since 2010 and 2 teams with 58% of the Nba players and that's the argument to say the SEC is a strong league.  No sir

I haven't heard anyone saying that.  I think everyone is sick of hearing how crappy we are when it's not the case.  You can throw all the numbers out you want, but why don't you show the other conferences numbers. I would like to see a breakdown of the best three teams from each conference and then see how the rest of their teams from those conferences stack up. I bet you they would all have a crappy win/loss ratio.  I'm not doing all that work. Lol.

[Hogarusa]

SEC rules, I am on the bandwagon.  Clearly, the committe screwed the pooch this year and Arkansas, Georgia, and Mizzou should have been in the dance.  Just look at what the 3 in the field have done. I agree, its clearly a media bias.  They are just sick of the football and baseball domination.

[Hogarusa]

Sounds like you are just making stuff up and then using that as a basis to say the SEC isn't good.

Its all made up, i just picked those numbers out of the sky, hoping nobody would call me out on it.  Those arent facts, just random numbers.  The internet lies.

[hogfan10]

I have said the same thing for years. Year after year have the best winning % in the dance.

SEC will continue to get no respect until the league actually starts acting like it cares about basketball.

I also believe the SEC is undervalued as a basketball league, and personally believe it's the conferences fault. If the league is going to continue to manufacture a home court advantage for every team in the league, then the upper level (but not GREAT) teams will most likely never seperate from the bottom half of the league. Which in turn, results in fewer NCAA bids.

With that said, if the SEC was getting more teams into the tournament, the leagues winning % would most likely trend downward and not upward.

[Danny J]

I also believe the SEC is undervalued as a basketball league, and personally believe it's the conferences fault. If the league is going to continue to manufacture a home court advantage for every team in the league, then the upper level (but not GREAT) teams will most likely never seperate from the bottom half of the league. Which in turn, results in fewer NCAA bids.

With that said, if the SEC was getting more teams into the tournament, the leagues winning % would most likely trend downward and not upward.

I agree about home court advantage in the SEC and have said that likely we would start to see more separation between teams in the middle of the league and the bottom tier teams which would also result in more bids.

[YouCrawl_IQuall]

Sounds like you are just making stuff up and then using that as a basis to say the SEC isn't good.

You trolling? What part of that was made up? Over 90% of SEC wins in the NCAAT in your study is coming from three teams. This does nothing to prove conference strength except show SEC has three good Basketball programs while having 12-14 teams. Nothing about that says "strong"

[Hogarusa]

You accuse others of being homers, but they continue to show statistical proof to back up their opinions. You have yet to show any statistical proof to back yours.

You must have missed them.  Some are in this very thread. Or you can just click on my name and look at posts. Happy hunting!

[The_Iceman]

Hambone is back?

[Hogarusa]

  You can throw all the numbers out you want, but why don't you show the other conferences numbers. I would like to see a breakdown of the best three teams from each conference and then see how the rest of their teams from those conferences stack up.

Those numbers won't prove that the SEC isn't a league with 3 teams carrying the load for an extended amount of years.

I can't really say anything else though.  My case is closed.  Gotta choose my battles and this one is a lost cause

[HawgAdvocate]

You remind of the type of people who don't think that anything from their hometown can ever be good. You aren't a homer, but you are just as biased as one, just in the other direction.

Jamie90210, did you get permission to create a new hambone account? What was wrong with the old Jamie90210 handle you abandoned in December?

In memory of the ol' Jamie90210 handle, I suggest you caption an avatar that says, 'hambone got next.'

[GlassofSwine]

The SEC isn't as bad as the media portrays but this is sortof comical, It's like in Football how we all say the SEC is the dominate conference because of BCS titles among 3 or 4 teams and that makes the rest of the SEC better. Then Rutgers comes around and blows that theory up.
  If Arkansas wanted in the dance they shouldn't have blown both Missouri games, blown the Florida  and Georgia games in OT. Lost to USCe in the tourney. Win 2 of those 5 and we are dancing, maybe only 1 if it was the Florida game.

[Danny J]

Those numbers won't prove that the SEC isn't a league with 3 teams carrying the load for an extended amount of years.

True but his point is that it is that way with most of the other conferences as well not just the SEC. So you can't simply throw out UK, Tenn and UF and not do the same for the other conferences. I have mentioned before that you have good teams average teams and bad teams in every conference. Although there are a few outliers depending on the years in question. How many final fours over the last 20 years were from different teams in any given conference over that period? Again....it is not that we are claiming the SEC is the best conference in basketball instead that it is not as bad as people portray it to be.

The entire problem is the fault of the SEC league office and the conference as a whole. This will fix the perception problem the SEC has:

1...schedule better cupcakes to help boost RPI
2...better coaching which I think is getting better with addition of CMA and Pearl
3...fix the problem road teams have winning away from home by correcting the problem with officiating. Contract better officials.
4...actually get out there and promote basketball. During the SECt the SEC had a HUGE announcement to make and guess what it was? Football related. Talking about the SEC network hosting aTm and Carolina game. The new "face" of the SEC spent the ENTIRE FREAKING WEEK of the SECt talking about....you guessed it.....spring football!!!

The rest of the country and the committee must think to themselves "why should we give the SEC respect when they don't even respect themselves"? The perception problem is created by non other than the SEC.

[Atlhogfan1]

Today's repeat of the same conversation:

A few reasons the SEC didn't get more than 3 teams:

For UGA, LSU or Arkansas to have gotten in the committee would have had to have had broken the RPI record for an at large to have let any one of them in and go against their "SOS" message they have been sending for a while now.

Missouri had too few good wins combined with too many bad losses vs the other bubble teams who got in. 

There is no conspiracy against the SEC.  The SEC programs have been foolish in how they have scheduled and they failed on the court this season including UT and UK in stretches which lowered their seeding.  Shouldn't have been as low as they were but they also could have been higher if they had played consistently better. 

History has no bearing on this year's selections.  Why is it continually brought up? 

[Atlhogfan1]

True but his point is that it is that way with most of the other conferences as well not just the SEC. So you can't simply throw out UK, Tenn and UF and not do the same for the other conferences. I have mentioned before that you have good teams average teams and bad teams in every conference. Although there are a few outliers depending on the years in question. How many final fours over the last 20 years were from different teams in any given conference over that period? Again....it is not that we are claiming the SEC is the best conference in basketball instead that it is not as bad as people portray it to be.

The entire problem is the fault of the SEC league office and the conference as a whole. This will fix the perception problem the SEC has:

1...schedule better cupcakes to help boost RPI
2...better coaching which I think is getting better with addition of CMA and Pearl
3...fix the problem road teams have winning away from home by correcting the problem with officiating. Contract better officials.
4...actually get out there and promote basketball. During the SECt the SEC had a HUGE announcement to make and guess what it was? Football related. Talking about the SEC network hosting aTm and Carolina game. The new "face" of the SEC spent the ENTIRE FREAKING WEEK of the SECt talking about....you guessed it.....spring football!!!

The rest of the country and the committee must think to themselves "why should we give the SEC respect when they don't even respect themselves"? The perception problem is created by non other than the SEC.

You left out win. 

[Danny J]

Today's repeat of the same conversation:

A few reasons the SEC didn't get more than 3 teams:

For UGA, LSU or Arkansas to have gotten in the committee would have had to have had broken the RPI record for an at large to have let any one of them in and go against their "SOS" message they have been sending for a while now.

Missouri had too few good wins combined with too many bad losses vs the other bubble teams who got in. 

There is no conspiracy against the SEC.  The SEC programs have been foolish in how they have scheduled and they failed on the court this season including UT and UK in stretches which lowered their seeding.  Shouldn't have been as low as they were but they also could have been higher if they had played consistently better. 

History has no bearing on this year's selections.  Why is it continually brought up?

Yes....we all understand WHY we didn't get more teams. Nobody is actually arguing that or at least I am not. Nobody is saying we are the best basketball conference in the country. We are saying there is a FLAW in the way the selections are made. There is a flaw because the SOS and RPI formulas are pure and utter garbage. We understand that the SEC as a whole is not utilizing the current criteria to making the dance to the best of our abilities. We get all that.

We are making a case for:

A....why the system(RPI/SOS) is flawed
B...the SEC/Arkansas actually doing something about it to get more bids.

So we are on the same page but seems day after day we are arguing two different points. I agree with everything you are saying. It is exactly like the HUNH offenses fully utilizing the 40 second play clock. Every team n football, just like in basketball, has the same ability to "game" the system to its benefit. Just some do it better than others.

[The Hogfather]

SEC basketball Is in a no-win situation (no pun intended). Even if the teams in the NCAA tournament dominate, all anyone wants to talk about is how top-heavy the league is. It's hard for more than three SEC teams to do well in the tournament because the committee will only let three in.

[Danny J]

You left out win.

That is obvious. We need to schedule more "pepperdines and Georgia States" and less "High Points and Savannah states" and that is ALL on the Arkansas and the SEC. They should have figured this out a LONG LONG time ago. Instead they spend virtually all their resources on football and minimal efforts in regards to basketball at least compared to football.

[Atlhogfan1]

SEC basketball Is in a no-win situation (no pun intended). Even if the teams in the NCAA tournament dominate, all anyone wants to talk about is how top-heavy the league is. It's hard for more than three SEC teams to do well in the tournament because the committee will only let three in.

It is actually in a win situation as in all Arkansas or Mizzou had to do was win a couple of those game that ended up being bad losses and one or both may have been in the tournament. 

[Danny J]

SEC basketball Is in a no-win situation (no pun intended). Even if the teams in the NCAA tournament dominate, all anyone wants to talk about is how top-heavy the league is. It's hard for more than three SEC teams to do well in the tournament because the committee will only let three in.

Exactly and the SEC can fix that problem by following the 4 points I listed above. The A10 and teams like Gonzaga, WSU and BYU seem to have it figured out. Reminds me of Boise State and TCU football trying to game the system as well by playing one or two tough games then 10 nobody's BUT could only get so far in that argument because unlike basketball there was no playoff in place where they were ever going to get a shot to prove people wrong.

I will also add that until this year the last 10-12 games were given a certain level of weight when comparing two teams. So they would take a school like BYU and Arkansas and if everything else being equal who use that 10-12 game finish as a sort of tiebreaker the only problem was they weren't weighing SOS into that. So BYU playing teams like Portland and Pepperdine and LMU were more likely to win those games than Arkansas playing in the SEC. So Slive called the NCAA and had that changed although I am not sure they actually did it in reality.

[Atlhogfan1]

That is obvious. We need to schedule more "pepperdines and Georgia States" and less "High Points and Savannah states" and that is ALL on the Arkansas and the SEC. They should have figured this out a LONG LONG time ago. Instead they spend virtually all their resources on football and minimal efforts in regards to basketball at least compared to football.

On a side note, have you seen the 30 in 30 on the Big East?  They talk about the football revenue compared to basketball and why football is shown so much more importance.  It isn't anything we didn't already know.  It was interesting though as it related back to the conversation on here about Ark being a football or basketball school. 

We aren't maximizing bask revenue because the season ticket list is no longer exceeding capacity and thus fans don't have to donate as they once did to get on the list.  Probably going to see a reduced capacity in BWA. 

[The Hogfather]

I'm not really interested in gaming a flawed system. I understand the hogs could've done more to get in the NCAA tournament. I'm more interested in the system getting fixed.

[Danny J]

It is actually in a win situation as in all Arkansas or Mizzou had to do was win a couple of those game that ended up being bad losses and one or both may have been in the tournament.

Too bad Arkansas and Mizzou wasn't afforded the same leeway that a team like BYU was afforded seeing how their bad losses were A LOT worse than our bad losses. I mean in a 3 team tournament who would you pick?

Carolina vs Portland
Alabama vs LMU
aTm vs Pepperdine

?

[Danny J]

On a side note, have you seen the 30 in 30 on the Big East?  They talk about the football revenue compared to basketball and why football is shown so much more importance.  It isn't anything we didn't already know.  It was interesting though as it related back to the conversation on here about Ark being a football or basketball school. 

We aren't maximizing bask revenue because the season ticket list is no longer exceeding capacity and thus fans don't have to donate as they once did to get on the list.  Probably going to see a reduced capacity in BWA.

Yes I did watch it especially at the end with the funeral. That almost brought me to tears. Glad he didn't see it become what it did. Gives me chills typing this. He died literally the day before the announcement was made. Again....chills.

But they were right and are right. Think about this....the schools that are clearly basketball schools draw only a fraction of the overall revenue generated from basketball that they do from football. Attendance as well. The TV contracts are simply too lucrative. Basketball will never compete.

[sowmonella]

One thing to point out...and take from it what you will...the SEC's wins have been against:

Iowa
Umass
Mercer
Kansas State
Wichita State
Albany
Pittsburg

All are in the NCAA Tourney.

[bigredone]

On a side note, have you seen the 30 in 30 on the Big East?  They talk about the football revenue compared to basketball and why football is shown so much more importance.  It isn't anything we didn't already know.  It was interesting though as it related back to the conversation on here about Ark being a football or basketball school. 

We aren't maximizing bask revenue because the season ticket list is no longer exceeding capacity and thus fans don't have to donate as they once did to get on the list.  Probably going to see a reduced capacity in BWA. 

I do miss those days of basketball. The game clips on that 30 in 30 were tough.

[bphi11ips]

History has no bearing on this year's selections.  Why is it continually brought up? 

Because conferences don't start from scratch every year.  The notion that the A10 is suddenly equal to or better than the SEC defies experience.  Common sense is based in large part upon experience.  That is not lost on most people. 

[hambone]

I'm not really interested in gaming a flawed system. I understand the hogs could've done more to get in the NCAA tournament. I'm more interested in the system getting fixed.

This.

[bigredone]

Because conferences don't start from scratch every year.  The notion that the A10 is suddenly equal to or better than the SEC defies experience.  Common sense is based in large part upon experience.  That is not lost on most people. 

They do need to track results from tournament to tournament. It could weed out teams playing the schedule game. They also need to set a floor that to qualify for an at large bid you have to have at least a .500 record in your conference.