Question about the new 3-4 defensive scheme.

[Cletus]

Does anyone know if it's a 1 gap type?

[hawginbigd1]

Don't really know but the reports have sounded more like a 1-gap.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Does anyone know if it's a 1 gap type?

Every player has a gap of responsibility except the NT that is a 2-gap player, as he should be.

[hawginbigd1]

Don't really know but the reports have sounded more like a 1-gap.

The DL have been talking about just being able to go make plays which sounds like they are not worried about multiple gap responsibility is what I am basing that from.

[TheEnemy]

Every player has a gap of responsibility except the NT that is a 2-gap player, as he should be.

Traditionally.

But some 3-4s switch up who plays 2 gap between their 3 down linemen or will go strictly 1 gap with blitzers filling in to fill all gaps......This is what I am hoping for.  Aranda did this a lot at Wisconsin and LSU.

[bennyl08]

Does anyone know if it's a 1 gap type?

Early on they were talking about wanting to be multiple.

How much of that they have had time to install, I'm not sure.

Judging by Jackson and Capps being the two main guys at NT, I'd say they imagine the base will at least have the NG with 2 gap responsibility.

There was talk early on about having guys like Marshall or Guidry and IIRC even Sosa was mentioned as playing the tackle spot on passing downs to get more pass rushers in the game. So, presumably there, it could be 1-gap through and through.

Bama often runs two gap for all three players on run downs with great success. No idea if we will be doing that with our ends. Maybe the strong side might also play two gap and the weak 1 gap. Don't think the coaches have gone into that level of detail.

[menace_hawg3]

It seems like they are going to mix it up.

[hawgfan4life]

It is just like every other defense in that any DL can be assigned 1 or 2 gaps with other personnel at first and second level having responsibilities to cover all gaps.  My guess is our NG will 2 gap most because of their build.

[Cletus]

Ok. I was researching "one gap 3-4" and what I found was this ( https://www.afcaweekly.com/2015/08/one-gap-3-4-defense-keeps-offenses-on-their-heels/ ) scheme that was strictly one gap per lineman, and all linemen and one OLB slanted to one side or the other every play. I had heard mention of Arkansas running a one gap scheme, and was hoping this was not it. Thanks for the info.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Ok. I was researching "one gap 3-4" and what I found was this ( https://www.afcaweekly.com/2015/08/one-gap-3-4-defense-keeps-offenses-on-their-heels/ ) scheme that was strictly one gap per lineman, and all linemen and one OLB slanted to one side or the other every play. I had heard mention of Arkansas running a one gap scheme, and was hoping this was not it. Thanks for the info.

The NT won't be a one gap player.

https://youtu.be/Aebo6gnkuQM?t=3

[GoHogs1091]

I hope our new 3-4 scheme does well, but I am not a fan of a 3-4 scheme.

A 3-4 scheme is used a lot by NFL teams, but there is still a lot of points scored against a 3-4 scheme by the competent NFL offenses.  Now, in the SEC there is not a lot of competent offenses, so we may be able to get away with using a 3-4.

One of the biggest issues I have with a 3-4 scheme is if the Nose Guard is not elite, and I stress the word elite, then a 3-4 defensive line can get mauled by an opposing offensive line.

[HogMantheIntruder]

I hope our new 3-4 scheme does well, but I am not a fan of a 3-4 scheme.

A 3-4 scheme is used a lot by NFL teams, but there is still a lot of points scored against a 3-4 scheme by the competent NFL offenses.  Now, in the SEC there is not a lot of competent offenses, so we may be able to get away with using a 3-4.

One of the biggest issues I have with a 3-4 scheme is if the Nose Guard is not elite, and I stress the word elite, then a 3-4 defensive line can get mauled by an opposing offensive line.

Would you consider Capps to be an elite NG, based on what you know about him thus far? He seems like a prototypical NG to me. Jackson also seems to be better for this position, but I definitely don't know as much about it as some on here. Do you foresee this being a strength or weakness with the current personnel?

[GoHogs1091]

Would you consider Capps to be an elite NG, based on what you know about him thus far? He seems like a prototypical NG to me. Jackson also seems to be better for this position, but I definitely don't know as much about it as some on here. Do you foresee this being a strength or weakness with the current personnel?

It will depend on if Capps and Jackson can consistently hold their ground at the point-of-attack.

Ideally, a Nose Guard in a 3-4 is so big and disruptive that it takes 2 Offensive Linemen to contain/block the Nose Guard.  It is such a numbers game up-front when it is just 3 down defensive linemen going against 5 Offensive linemen, so the Nose Guard better be able to occupy 2 of the offensive linemen.

[bennyl08]

I hope our new 3-4 scheme does well, but I am not a fan of a 3-4 scheme.

A 3-4 scheme is used a lot by NFL teams, but there is still a lot of points scored against a 3-4 scheme by the competent NFL offenses.  Now, in the SEC there is not a lot of competent offenses, so we may be able to get away with using a 3-4.

One of the biggest issues I have with a 3-4 scheme is if the Nose Guard is not elite, and I stress the word elite, then a 3-4 defensive line can get mauled by an opposing offensive line.

I'm more worried about the OLB's.

An elite NG will be strong enough to require two blockers as well as quick enough to still make the tackle. However, it isn't terribly hard to find somebody that is very strong OR pretty quick.

If they are strong enough to require two blockers, then while they won't be quick enough to get off the block and make the tackle, you now have 10 defenders against 9 offensive players and you already have an advantage. Similarly, if you have a quick DT (think Philon) they will command a double team as the quickest path to the qb is up the gut. Again, said player will be neutralized once they are double teamed, but we are back to having 10 defensive guys against 9 offensive.

OLB, otoh, is much more integral, IMO (enough acronyms?). Why? 3 down lineman aren't going to be able to generate pressure against 5 OL unless there's a pretty huge talent gap. This is why at least one person is almost always blitzing in a 3-4. This is the main advantage of the 3-4 over the 4-3 in that, the offense know that somebody is probably blitzing, but if done correctly, they don't know who. Most of the time, it won't be an ILB. That's not really their skill set. It will be one of the 2 OLB's. Which means, you need to have at least 2 guys who are actually threats to rush the passer from a LB spot. Further, you need each of those guys to be threats in pass coverage as well. Otherwise, what do you have? If a guy isn't very good as pass coverage, then the offense will simply assume that he's going to rush and not drop into coverage. What happens if they are wrong? Nothing. If the guy isn't good at pass coverage, his person will be open anyways and if the backer is sitting back in zone, it's not like he has a snowball's chance in Oaxaca of catching anything. Similarly, if somebody isn't a threat to rush the passer, the offense isn't going to care about this person. They won't be able to beat the TE or the RB in one on one blocking and will pose no threat if the OL ignores them. So again, you need two guys who can actually do both or else you lose the element of surprise, and that is very hard and rare. We have some players with the physical skill set to do that, but nobody who has proven it on the SEC field.

[menace_hawg3]

I hope our new 3-4 scheme does well, but I am not a fan of a 3-4 scheme.

A 3-4 scheme is used a lot by NFL teams, but there is still a lot of points scored against a 3-4 scheme by the competent NFL offenses.  Now, in the SEC there is not a lot of competent offenses, so we may be able to get away with using a 3-4.

One of the biggest issues I have with a 3-4 scheme is if the Nose Guard is not elite, and I stress the word elite, then a 3-4 defensive line can get mauled by an opposing offensive line.

I don't know if having a big NT is necessary to run a solid/good 3-4 defense. LSU, Washington, Houston, and Wiscy have small NTs and their defenses are pretty good. Im really not sure of what they do.

[bennyl08]

Would you consider Capps to be an elite NG, based on what you know about him thus far? He seems like a prototypical NG to me. Jackson also seems to be better for this position, but I definitely don't know as much about it as some on here. Do you foresee this being a strength or weakness with the current personnel?

Jackson has one of the quickest first steps for a guy remotely his size that I've seen. He won't win many 40 yard dashes, but 5 yards or so, you might be surprised how many people he can beat. However, his problem, like Hodge before him, has been conditioning. He loses his breath and loses his ability. Jackson I'd say has elite burst, solid strength, and has struggled with stamina so I wouldn't consider him an elite player, but definitely an SEC player.

Capps, otoh, isn't nearly as quick as Bijhon. However, you watch his HS tape and you can already tell he is stronger than most other D1 prospects. As a true freshmen for us, he was iirc among the top 5 strongest players on our team already. However, he doesn't have that same first step as Bijhon and with limited playing time, hard to make any comments on his stamina. Capps has elite strength, solid quickness, and unknown stamina. He could end up being better than Bijhon and he played a good amount of snaps as a true freshmen, but I wouldn't say he will be elite. Could possibly be great, will likely be at least good. Don't think he'll be elite.

[HogMantheIntruder]

It will depend on if Capps and Jackson can consistently hold their ground at the point-of-attack.

Ideally, a Nose Guard in a 3-4 is so big and disruptive that it takes 2 Offensive Linemen to contain/block the Nose Guard.  It is such a numbers game up-front when it is just 3 down defensive linemen going against 5 Offensive linemen, so the Nose Guard better be able to occupy 2 of the offensive linemen.

I don't think Capps will have an issue. That guy is a freaking beast! I was so disappointed that they didn't do Freaks Come Out this year. I really wanted to see what kind of poundage he was going to throw up. As a freshman, he squatted 650 (IIRC) like it was just the bar.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

It will depend on if Capps and Jackson can consistently hold their ground at the point-of-attack.

Ideally, a Nose Guard in a 3-4 is so big and disruptive that it takes 2 Offensive Linemen to contain/block the Nose Guard.  It is such a numbers game up-front when it is just 3 down defensive linemen going against 5 Offensive linemen, so the Nose Guard better be able to occupy 2 of the offensive linemen.

It's not as much about holding your ground as much as it is about moving to the ball, requiring a schemed double team and using the lead blocker's (usually the Center) body to close down a gap as they push towards the flow of the ball and ruin the angle of the double team or split the double team. But I agree with the second part of your post.

[a0ashle]

A lot of times in the last two years it looked like we were 2-gapping in our 4-3. I'm ready to see Sosa whip Gs to gap and meet the RB for a TFL

[GoHogs1091]

I don't know if having a big NT is necessary to run a solid/good 3-4 defense. LSU, Washington, Houston, and Wiscy have small NTs and their defenses are pretty good. Im really not sure of what they do.

Houston has a very, very good Defensive Lineman (Ed Oliver).  That helps them regarding their 3-4.

Wisconsin's 3-4 gets exposed when they face better offensive lines such as Ohio State's OL and Michigan's OL.

LSU's 3-4 defensive line has not been as good on the interior the last 2-3 years with them having a smaller Nose Guard.  Because of LSU having elite Linebackers they have been able to overcome some with their interior DL not being as good.

[menace_hawg3]

Houston has a very, very good Defensive Lineman (Ed Oliver).  That helps them regarding their 3-4.

Wisconsin's 3-4 gets exposed when they face better offensive lines such as Ohio State's OL and Michigan's OL.

LSU's 3-4 defensive line has not been as good on the interior the last 2-3 years with them having a smaller Nose Guard.  Because of LSU having elite Linebackers they have been able to overcome some with their interior DL not being as good.

Good point, but are those the only reasons those defenses are good? What made Washington's defense so good?

[MuskogeeHogFan]

I don't know if having a big NT is necessary to run a solid/good 3-4 defense. LSU, Washington, Houston, and Wiscy have small NTs and their defenses are pretty good. Im really not sure of what they do.

Having a big, strong, dominating NT that requires the attention of a double team is the key to the success of the front 7 in the 3-4.

[TheEnemy]

The NT won't be a one gap player.

https://youtu.be/Aebo6gnkuQM?t=3

How do you know this?  Has Rhoads or CBB  said this or are you just assuming it?

[TheEnemy]

Having a big, strong, dominating NT that requires the attention of a double team is the key to the success of the front 7 in the 3-4.

Disagree.  Teams are showing that it isn't as needed anymore.  Especially as Spread offenses become more prevalent.

[GoHogs1091]

Good point, but are those the only reasons those defenses are good? What made Washington's defense so good?

Some of it was the competition Washington played against.

We saw what happened to Washington's 3-4 when they faced Alabama's offensive line.

[menace_hawg3]

Some of it was the competition Washington played against.

We saw what happened to Washington's 3-4 when they faced Alabama's offensive line.

Didn't Alabama's 3-4 crumble against Clemson's OLine? How well do you think Washington would do against teams in the SEC not named Alabama?

[GoHogs1091]

Didn't Alabama's 3-4 crumble against Clemson's OLine? How well do you think Washington would do against teams in the SEC not named Alabama?

Clemson's OL did a very good job against Alabama's DL, but Alabama's DL also could not pin their ears back because they had to respect Watson's rushing ability.  Watson would have shredded them more on the ground if Alabama's DL's had gotten up field and out of position.

Washington's 3-4 would probably have done well against the SEC teams of Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Vanderbilt, Kentucky, and perhaps Tennessee, but Washington's 3-4 would probably have struggled against the other SEC teams.

[menace_hawg3]

Clemson's OL did a very good job against Alabama's DL, but Alabama's DL also could not pin their ears back because they had to respect Watson's rushing ability.  Watson would have shredded them more on the ground if Alabama's DL's had gotten up field and out of position.

Washington's 3-4 would probably have done well against the SEC teams of Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Vanderbilt, Kentucky, and perhaps Tennessee, but Washington's 3-4 would probably have struggled against the other SEC teams.

Why would they have struggled against UGA or Arkansas?

[GoHogs1091]

Why would they have struggled against UGA or Arkansas?

Because Arkansas and UGA have the physical offensive line play that Washington is not used to seeing in the PAC-12.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Disagree.  Teams are showing that it isn't as needed anymore.  Especially as Spread offenses become more prevalent.

OK, that's just what experts who coach this style of defense have said. Not my opinion, obviously not yours. And the 3-4 is schemed to apply pressure, stop Spread Offenses and the RPO.

https://youtu.be/Aebo6gnkuQM?t=3

Watch the video. This guy has a little more experience than you, me or probably anyone else on here.

[TheEnemy]

Because Arkansas and UGA have the physical offensive line play that Washington is not used to seeing in the PAC-12.

Also, we run Pro-style with a fullback too much.

Against Prostyle with a  fullback, you have to play more 2 gap or the full back will pickoff your linebacker which will lead to big runs.

Against the spread, you have more latitude to move around which D-linemen is playing the 2 gap and/or run blitzing linebackers to help cover the gaps in a 1 gap scheme.

[TheEnemy]

OK, that's just what experts who coach this style of defense have said. Not my opinion, obviously not yours. And the 3-4 is schemed to apply pressure, stop Spread Offenses and the RPO.

https://youtu.be/Aebo6gnkuQM?t=3

Watch the video. This guy has a little more experience than you, me or probably anyone else on here.

No need to get chippy....just trying to have a discussion.

And that is the traditional way of running it.

But football evolves.....and in the last few years you are starting to see D-coordinators have success mixing it up using stunts and blitzers to free up the NG to attack 1-gap.

I don't need experience in it to know that the 3-4 has evolved.  You can see it and hear other coaches talk about it.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

No need to get chippy....just trying to have a discussion.

And that is the traditional way of running it.

But football evolves.....and in the last few years you are starting to see D-coordinators have success mixing it up using stunts and blitzers to free up the NG to attack 1-gap.

I don't need experience in it to know that the 3-4 has evolved.  You can see it and hear other coaches talk about it.

Just because I am countering your post doesn't mean that I'm getting "chippy", just providing facts with a video from an experienced coach to back it up.

If you watch this guy's series of videos, your questions are answered with regard to 3-4 responsibilities vs. the run or the pass.

The only real question here is, is the version of the 3-4 that we are implementing similar to what he coaches and professes. At this point, I don't think that any of us know. But it is nonetheless a good explanation of the basic scheme.

And by the way, having had personal experience with coaching the 3-4 would probably prove to be invaluable when rendering an opinion. But JMO.

[menace_hawg3]

Because Arkansas and UGA have the physical offensive line play that Washington is not used to seeing in the PAC-12.

So you think they could beat Georgia?

[bennyl08]

OK, that's just what experts who coach this style of defense have said. Not my opinion, obviously not yours. And the 3-4 is schemed to apply pressure, stop Spread Offenses and the RPO.

https://youtu.be/Aebo6gnkuQM?t=3

Watch the video. This guy has a little more experience than you, me or probably anyone else on here.

Guess lowly Wade Phillips isn't a defensive 3-4 expert. At least not compared to Jeff Rhinebolt (sp?). Not like a one-gap defense led the NFL and carried the broncos to a super bowl or anything.

http://www.denverpost.com/2016/02/07/for-wade-phillips-broncos-3-4-defense-and-one-gap-equals-dominance/

Below is a link where you can learn how a 1-gap 3-4 defense can be just as effect as JR's 2-gap 3-4.

https://www.afcaweekly.com/2015/08/one-gap-3-4-defense-keeps-offenses-on-their-heels/

[TheEnemy]

The only real question here is, is the version of the 3-4 that we are implementing similar to what he coaches and professes. At this point, I don't think that any of us know.

Exactly......that is basically what I was saying is that there are different versions.....and at times the NG doesn't necessarily have to play 2-gap.

Wade Phillips, Clancy Pendergast, and Dave Aranda have had alot of success mixing it up, whereas Saban is more of a traditionalist and sticks to the 2 gap philosophy.

[TheEnemy]

From Benny's article.

Allow Ware to expound. "In the 3-4, you have five linemen on the front end and only two linebackers," he said. "It's a one-gap scheme. My job is now I can be a lot more aggressive on the outside, set the edge on the outside and make sure everything is funneled to the guys in the middle. It's like
(having) one responsibility."

I actually really like the 1-gap versions....hoping we utilize at least some of it.  Simplifies a lot of things and allows players to play fast and aggressive.

[GoHogs1091]

So you think they could beat Georgia?

I think Washington would have had trouble against a power running team such as Georgia.

Washington just doesn't face a lot of power running offenses in the Pac-12.  A lot of what they face is really not very physical football.

[ErieHog]

Some of it was the competition Washington played against.

We saw what happened to Washington's 3-4 when they faced Alabama's offensive line.

Didn't Alabama's 3-4 crumble against Clemson's OLine? How well do you think Washington would do against teams in the SEC not named Alabama?

They crumbled when they got over 75 defensive snaps.   That will happen to most any front.

Clemson ran something like 95 plays by the end of that game, and scored 21 in the 4th, largely because Alabama went 9 or 10 straight series without converting a single third down, leaving that Alabama defense on the field for prolonged stretches

[Boss Hog in the Arkansas]

It will depend on if Capps and Jackson can consistently hold their ground at the point-of-attack.

Ideally, a Nose Guard in a 3-4 is so big and disruptive that it takes 2 Offensive Linemen to contain/block the Nose Guard.  It is such a numbers game up-front when it is just 3 down defensive linemen going against 5 Offensive linemen, so the Nose Guard better be able to occupy 2 of the offensive linemen.

I've watched Jackson the past couple years and he has always forced the opponent to double team him. That's the least of our worries. Im more concerned about who steps up at the other DE position and how the young LB's fare

[bennyl08]

I've watched Jackson the past couple years and he has always forced the opponent to double team him. That's the least of our worries. Im more concerned about who steps up at the other DE position and how the young LB's fare

Jackson has always been good when he isn't tired. His problem's up to now have been his conditioning prevented him from playing well for a full game. Coaches have talked about him really changing his body this off-season and it shows in the roster weight. Hodge had a similar problem until he really changed his senior year and played quite well. I believe that Jackson will indeed show off here his senior season, but we will definitely have a rotation.

I'm not too concerned about the other DE spots. TJ Smith was built for this type of role. He absolutely has the skill set, the only question is if he is mentally ready to play in the SEC. That he didn't start at the front but instead rose through beating out other players on the way to locking up the starting spot shows me that his mental game can't be too bad, or if it is, his physical skills are simply that good that it's still worth starting him. Either way, we should be fine with him. Further, go back and watch tape on guys like Guidry, Marhsall, and Taylor. Any one of those guys could be starting for us and I'd feel fine with them in there. That they are backups for us right now shows we have good depth.

[HamSammich]

A three -4 is played usually with the intention of using its flexibility in lining up. It's easier to zone blitz out of. It's easier to load one side or the other. A lot of times if you don't pay attention to who is firing off on the line where it will in fact look exactly like a 4-3.

So I can't answer this until I see 3 games and rewatch them over and over. Then there will be tendencies.

[hawgfan4life]

5-2, 3-3 stack, split 4, 4-4 stack, 3-4, 5-3, 6-2, and etc all work with elite players and all struggle with average players against elite opponents.  All can implement 1 and 2 gap schemes.  Scheme isn't as important as sound alignments, effort, and ability to shed blocks and make tackles.  AL can line up in any defense ever created and be an elite defense if they do all those things.  They can give up yards, points, and get beat if they dont.

[oldhawg]

Lot of expertise in this thread.  Sadly, I have nothing to contribute. 

I am, however, charged up over the coming season, more so than recent years.  IMO the defense will be good, better than expected.  Most of the time they will find the right gap to fill. 

[menace_hawg3]

5-2, 3-3 stack, split 4, 4-4 stack, 3-4, 5-3, 6-2, and etc all work with elite players and all struggle with average players against elite opponents.  All can implement 1 and 2 gap schemes.  Scheme isn't as important as sound alignments, effort, and ability to shed blocks and make tackles.  AL can line up in any defense ever created and be an elite defense if they do all those things.  They can give up yards, points, and get beat if they dont.

It seems like the 4-3 struggles with average players as well. I think some teams are moving to it, because it doesn't require as many big D-linemen and its versatility. Its probably easier to find  6'3, 230-250 lb linebackers ( tweeners) than it is to find 6'5 260-280 lb DEs. It also allows you to get more speed on the field. Well at least in the front 7. It also seems like there are many ways to run it. You can run it like Alabama or Wisconsin.

I remember CBB saying that when he was playing, most teams ran the 3-4. However when he started coaching, teams began running the 4-3. it seems like things are coming full circle. All defenses and offenses struggle without elite players.