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Redbird Rundown IX

Started by clutch, April 05, 2015, 01:50:00 pm

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McKdaddy

Quote from: ChicoHog on December 22, 2015, 09:50:14 am
Just saw it on MLB network that Leake has agreed to terms with the Cardinals.  I was hoping Dodgers would get him.  Congrats to you guys. 

Thanks, we could use some good news.
Don't buy upgrades, ride up grades.

"You are everything that is wrong with this place . . . Ban me"

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jrulz83

5 years $75 Million, $18 million mutual option for 2021, full no trade is what I'm seeing.
Lenin is cautiously optimistic.

 

pigture perfect

Leake is a great fit to replace Lackey. Love that get. I would like to pick up one more to replace Lynn. I would like to give Buerle a chance. We only need him for a year til Lynn is ready and I've understood he's always wanted to pitch for his hometown Redbirds.
The 2 biggest fools in the world: He who has an answer for everything and he who argues with him.  - original.<br /> <br />The first thing I'm going to ask a lawyer (when I might need one) is, "You don't post on Hogville do you?"

ucahogfan

Quote from: jrulz83 on December 21, 2015, 10:08:34 pm
Kind of like Jaime Garcia, Michael Wacha, or Carlos Martinez? Or even Mike Leake or Scott Kazmir? I doubt that the Cardinals will be trading Reyes.
Yeah, I doubt the Cardinals trade Reyes as well, but with a weaker farm system, he would have more than likely had to be involved in the trade.  It is all a moot point now that Leake has signed which I think is a good sign by the Cards.  For 5/80 with full no trade clause, you get a veteran who still has mileage left on his arm and should throw up solid numbers (3.50 ERA or better) for at least next 3-4 years which should be the prime of his career.

Quote from: jrulz83 on December 21, 2015, 10:08:34 pm
No, did it sound like I blame him? I think the pressure on Heyward would have been tremendous had he stayed in St. Louis. No offense intended, but the guy isn't a star. He's an elite defender, good player, and I would like to have him on my team, but he isn't an offensive threat. I think he sees an opportunity to be a complementary type player instead of depended on to be an offensive threat. He did what he thought best for him, I take no offense in it.
Not at all, but you know some people would blame him for taking less money (based on rumors both the Cards and Nats offered 200M+) and going to your main rival.  It depends on how you value WAR, but J-Hey has consistently been a 5+ WAR guy in his career based on his defense, base running, and he isn't too bad getting on base either.  He is a great table setter to have on that team in front of Rizzo, Bryant, and Schwarber.  And who knows, maybe going to a much more hitter friendly park for the first time in his career will boost his power numbers to 20-25 HRs a year.

jrulz83

Quote from: ucahogfan on December 22, 2015, 07:07:35 pm
Yeah, I doubt the Cardinals trade Reyes as well, but with a weaker farm system, he would have more than likely had to be involved in the trade.  It is all a moot point now that Leake has signed which I think is a good sign by the Cards.  For 5/80 with full no trade clause, you get a veteran who still has mileage left on his arm and should throw up solid numbers (3.50 ERA or better) for at least next 3-4 years which should be the prime of his career.

Yep, the conversations start and end with Reyes when that is really all there is in the system. I too feel like Leake is a quality signing. I would have liked him better at 5/60, but that's just not the reality of baseball anymore. I'm sure the "BFIB" aren't thrilled with it, but I'm perfectly satisfied with it.

Quote from: ucahogfan on December 22, 2015, 07:07:35 pm
Not at all, but you know some people would blame him for taking less money (based on rumors both the Cards and Nats offered 200M+) and going to your main rival.  It depends on how you value WAR, but J-Hey has consistently been a 5+ WAR guy in his career based on his defense, base running, and he isn't too bad getting on base either.  He is a great table setter to have on that team in front of Rizzo, Bryant, and Schwarber.  And who knows, maybe going to a much more hitter friendly park for the first time in his career will boost his power numbers to 20-25 HRs a year.

Sure, there have been some idiots out there overreacting to the guy making a decision for his career, like they've never done the same thing. I appreciate Heyward and what he did for the Cardinals. He provided exactly what was advertised and seemed to be the consummate professional. I wish he would have signed long term with STL, but I get why he didn't. He did provide some bulletin board material with his comments about the aging core of the Cardinals, but I think Matheny way overreacted to it (he may be doing it on purpose). The core is aging, that's an undeniable fact, and the farm is pretty bereft of talent at the moment. The next couple drafts are pretty pivotal for the franchise, especially this one with the compensation picks.
Lenin is cautiously optimistic.

dhornjr1

The comments Heyward made are crap. He just wanted to play for Joe Maddon over Mike Matheny and I don't blame him for that.

The Cardinals have young talent in Wacha, Martinez, Wong, Piscotty, Pham, Grichuk, Rosenthal,  and Gonzales. None over the age of 25 except Pham who is 27.

But they don't have Joe Maddon.

hoghappy

The Cards are one of the youngest overall teams in baseball. I think it was more than age. It very well could be that Maddon was the key.

jbell96

Just read Waino's take on Heyward's decision to go to Chicago, basically questioned his desire to be "the man" and carry on the team's legacy.

https://twitter.com/CardsNation13/status/679467403013586944

ucahogfan

Quote from: hoghappy on December 23, 2015, 01:57:35 am
The Cards are one of the youngest overall teams in baseball. I think it was more than age. It very well could be that Maddon was the key.
Not according to this:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/rosters/_/sort/average_age/order/true

The Cards were the 9th oldest team in baseball last year.  They just feel younger because a lot of the team are still under team control and did not come in via free agency, but not a lot of those players were called up until their mid 20s.  That doesn't factor in the main core of Waino, Molina, and Holiday are in their mid 30s (almost in Molina's case) as well as Carpenter and Peralta being at least 30.  That is an older core.  I know you have plenty of young, talented guys, but I don't think they would be considered core players.

ucahogfan

Quote from: jbell96 on December 23, 2015, 12:05:29 pm
Just read Waino's take on Heyward's decision to go to Chicago, basically questioned his desire to be "the man" and carry on the team's legacy.
Sounds like a player who wants to surround himself with the best young talent in baseball which gives him a better chance of winning a ring (insert Cubs joke here) over the life of a contract.  It is becoming much more common in sports (mainly the Spurs) for players to take less money and have a greater chance of winning a ring.

ucahogfan

Quote from: jrulz83 on December 22, 2015, 11:11:05 pm
Yep, the conversations start and end with Reyes when that is really all there is in the system. I too feel like Leake is a quality signing. I would have liked him better at 5/60, but that's just not the reality of baseball anymore. I'm sure the "BFIB" aren't thrilled with it, but I'm perfectly satisfied with it.
I did see on ESPN the other day that a ESPN expert thought the Cards had the young talent to land Fernandez from the Marlins.  I guess I just don't really see that unless the Cards were going to give up Reyes, Martinez, Piscotty, and some more.  The farm system is very thin at the top.

As to your point about this draft, having 3 top 40 picks like the Cards will have (albeit all in the 25-40 range) will play a big role in the future of the franchise.  The 2016 draft is pretty deep at the top IMO with a lot of college arms.  Heck, Zach Jackson is rated by some in the 30s in this class which shows how deep it is.

popcornhog

Quote from: ucahogfan on December 23, 2015, 07:24:23 pm
I did see on ESPN the other day that a ESPN expert thought the Cards had the young talent to land Fernandez from the Marlins.  I guess I just don't really see that unless the Cards were going to give up Reyes, Martinez, Piscotty, and some more.  The farm system is very thin at the top.

As to your point about this draft, having 3 top 40 picks like the Cards will have (albeit all in the 25-40 range) will play a big role in the future of the franchise.  The 2016 draft is pretty deep at the top IMO with a lot of college arms.  Heck, Zach Jackson is rated by some in the 30s in this class which shows how deep it is.

We were just talking about that this morning. Those picks are going to be big. Would love to see ZJ in a Cardinals uniform.

As for Fernandez -- I would never give all of those guys up.
WPS

ghostzapper


 

ucahogfan

Quote from: ghostzapper on January 10, 2016, 09:44:40 am
Didn't see any separate post on computergate.  Don't think this ends well for Cards.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/mlb-must-hammer-st--louis-beyond-its-checkbook-for-hacking-astros-005253782.html
Yeah, I think Manfred should dock them big time in draft picks and international spending.  Maybe like their 1st round pick this year plus one of the compensation picks they will get for losing Lackey and J-Hey as well as their 1st round pick next year as well as not being able to spend more than 300K on an international prospect the next 2 years.  I think their draft pool should also be very limited as well - maybe 2-3M.

This is a violation like we haven't seen in baseball so there isn't a blue print for the punishment that should be given.  I don't think you could compare it to PED use because I think it is much worse than PED use.  Manfred will also set the tone for this kind of punishment so that it will deter teams for doing something similar in the future.  He should lean more on a very harsh punishment.

hoghappy

Ouch, that would hurt. As a fan, my whole family is, I hate that the Executive did this. I know that punishment should be dealt out and stiffly. I hope some federal trade laws were broken and that A****** is thrown in jail for what damage he did to the Redbirds.

southarkhog06

Quote from: ucahogfan on January 10, 2016, 01:56:13 pm
Yeah, I think Manfred should dock them big time in draft picks and international spending.  Maybe like their 1st round pick this year plus one of the compensation picks they will get for losing Lackey and J-Hey as well as their 1st round pick next year as well as not being able to spend more than 300K on an international prospect the next 2 years.  I think their draft pool should also be very limited as well - maybe 2-3M.

This is a violation like we haven't seen in baseball so there isn't a blue print for the punishment that should be given.  I don't think you could compare it to PED use because I think it is much worse than PED use.  Manfred will also set the tone for this kind of punishment so that it will deter teams for doing something similar in the future.  He should lean more on a very harsh punishment.
As a Cubs fan I whole-heartedly agree with you.

Rocky&Boarwinkle

Quote from: ucahogfan on January 10, 2016, 01:56:13 pm
Yeah, I think Manfred should dock them big time in draft picks and international spending.  Maybe like their 1st round pick this year plus one of the compensation picks they will get for losing Lackey and J-Hey as well as their 1st round pick next year as well as not being able to spend more than 300K on an international prospect the next 2 years.  I think their draft pool should also be very limited as well - maybe 2-3M.

This is a violation like we haven't seen in baseball so there isn't a blue print for the punishment that should be given.  I don't think you could compare it to PED use because I think it is much worse than PED use.  Manfred will also set the tone for this kind of punishment so that it will deter teams for doing something similar in the future.  He should lean more on a very harsh punishment.
I "get" how this happened.  Baseball has had a "code" all the way back to Ty Cobb and before where "if you aren't cheating" you aren't trying in regards to stealing each other's talent, stealing signs, etc.  It reminds me of the Patriots filmgate, but even more.  When you get in to doing things on computers and in todays day and age of copyright laws, etc. it is well beyond just "getting a competitive edge", it is law breaking on top of rule breaking.  And I hate it as a lifelong Cardinal's fan.  To somehow complain or try and whitewash it by any Cardinals fan, smacks of the Alabama fans whining and crying when they actually have gotten caught in the past paying off players, etc.  If you are going to throw the winning in everyone's face, then you have to live with it when they prove your team has been doing something underhanded.

popcornhog

Cards sign Seung-Hwan from South Korea.

I didn't know this was even still a possibility.

I presume he'll be a 7th/8th inning setup guy.
WPS

pigture perfect

I'm a little concerned about the Oh Seung Hwan signing coming on the heels of this other legal stuff. We got Oh like we did because he is suspended from the Korean and Japanese leagues. I guess I'll get over it. Hurry up baseball.
The 2 biggest fools in the world: He who has an answer for everything and he who argues with him.  - original.<br /> <br />The first thing I'm going to ask a lawyer (when I might need one) is, "You don't post on Hogville do you?"

Dropkick


jrulz83

Quote from: ucahogfan on January 10, 2016, 01:56:13 pm
Yeah, I think Manfred should dock them big time in draft picks and international spending.  Maybe like their 1st round pick this year plus one of the compensation picks they will get for losing Lackey and J-Hey as well as their 1st round pick next year as well as not being able to spend more than 300K on an international prospect the next 2 years.  I think their draft pool should also be very limited as well - maybe 2-3M.

This is a violation like we haven't seen in baseball so there isn't a blue print for the punishment that should be given.  I don't think you could compare it to PED use because I think it is much worse than PED use.  Manfred will also set the tone for this kind of punishment so that it will deter teams for doing something similar in the future.  He should lean more on a very harsh punishment.

I disagree and I'll tell you why. It wasn't an organizational plan to steal the Astros information. It was one rogue employee that did something wrong. Now if they can prove that he took the info and someone higher up in the organization knew he got it the way he did and they encouraged him to do it the multiple times that he did; I would completely agree with you.

I'm pretty sure jail time will be enough of a deterrent to keep others from doing it. Draft penalties seem extreme to me, and unfair to an organization that has one guy do something wrong. If it's an endemic problem in an organization that's a different thing altogether.
Lenin is cautiously optimistic.

southarkhog06

Quote from: jrulz83 on January 11, 2016, 08:36:23 pm
I disagree and I'll tell you why. It wasn't an organizational plan to steal the Astros information. It was one rogue employee that did something wrong. Now if they can prove that he took the info and someone higher up in the organization knew he got it the way he did and they encouraged him to do it the multiple times that he did; I would completely agree with you.

I'm pretty sure jail time will be enough of a deterrent to keep others from doing it. Draft penalties seem extreme to me, and unfair to an organization that has one guy do something wrong. If it's an endemic problem in an organization that's a different thing altogether.
spoken like a true fan of the team that did the cheating.

jrulz83

Quote from: southarkhog06 on January 11, 2016, 09:39:13 am
As a Cubs fan I whole-heartedly agree with you.

Spoken like a true fan of the rival team of the team that had the employee that did something illegal.  :)
Lenin is cautiously optimistic.

southarkhog06

Quote from: jrulz83 on January 12, 2016, 01:53:19 pm
Spoken like a true fan of the rival team of the team that had the employee that did something illegal.  :)
Fair Enough, but you cant just let the cards skate on this. It may have just been "one employee" that did something illegal, but it wasnt just some joe, it was a major part of the organizations decision making proccess. And The Cards benefitted from the cheating, lets also not forget that this wasnt run of the mill cheating, this was a federal crime.

 

jrulz83

Quote from: southarkhog06 on January 12, 2016, 02:07:00 pm
Fair Enough, but you cant just let the cards skate on this. It may have just been "one employee" that did something illegal, but it wasnt just some joe, it was a major part of the organizations decision making proccess. And The Cards benefitted from the cheating, lets also not forget that this wasnt run of the mill cheating, this was a federal crime.

It was a crime... that the person who perpetrated will pay for. Did I say let them skate? Did I ever once say no punishment should come against the franchise? Sure they should be punished, but all this talk of stripping draft picks and other things is a little extreme. I think they should lose bonus pool money to the Astros, it seems appropriate. Also a fine of some amount should be levied, that seems appropriate to me.

How did the Cardinals benefit from the crime? Good luck proving how and where they did. I'm not in any way saying they shouldn't be punished, I'm just saying that people need to temper their expectations on this and I would say the same things as I said in the sentences above if any team had been the victim of a rogue employee acting stupid.
Lenin is cautiously optimistic.

ucahogfan

Quote from: jrulz83 on January 11, 2016, 08:36:23 pm
I disagree and I'll tell you why. It wasn't an organizational plan to steal the Astros information. It was one rogue employee that did something wrong. Now if they can prove that he took the info and someone higher up in the organization knew he got it the way he did and they encouraged him to do it the multiple times that he did; I would completely agree with you.

I'm pretty sure jail time will be enough of a deterrent to keep others from doing it. Draft penalties seem extreme to me, and unfair to an organization that has one guy do something wrong. If it's an endemic problem in an organization that's a different thing altogether.
It was the scouting director who perpetrated the crime.  I would say that is pretty high up on the organizational chart.  And it was a scouting director stealing information about draft ratings and trade discussions.  That clearly gives the Cardinals a competitive advantage, although it would probably be hard to quantify it right now.  The GM had to at least have an idea of what was going on although I won't say he ordered it because I don't think he did.  Of course, Correa could come out and say that to lighten up his sentence.

DeltaBoy

Excited to see what the Red Birds will do this year.
If the South should lose, it means that the history of the heroic struggle will be written by the enemy, that our youth will be trained by Northern school teachers, will be impressed by all of the influences of history and education to regard our gallant dead as traitors and our maimed veterans as fit subjects for derision.
-- Major General Patrick Cleburne
The Confederacy had no better soldiers
than the Arkansans--fearless, brave, and oftentimes courageous beyond
prudence. Dickart History of Kershaws Brigade.

TrueBlue

Just bought my Spring Training tickets!.....5 games and 8 days in West Palm Beach/Jupiter!

jrulz83

Quote from: TrueBlue on January 18, 2016, 08:24:19 am
Just bought my Spring Training tickets!.....5 games and 8 days in West Palm Beach/Jupiter!

I thought I read that the owners and the Players Union canceled the season and just gave the 2016 WS trophy to the Cubs.
Lenin is cautiously optimistic.

hogcard1964

Quote from: ucahogfan on January 10, 2016, 01:56:13 pm
Yeah, I think Manfred should dock them big time in draft picks and international spending.  Maybe like their 1st round pick this year plus one of the compensation picks they will get for losing Lackey and J-Hey as well as their 1st round pick next year as well as not being able to spend more than 300K on an international prospect the next 2 years.  I think their draft pool should also be very limited as well - maybe 2-3M.

This is a violation like we haven't seen in baseball so there isn't a blue print for the punishment that should be given.  I don't think you could compare it to PED use because I think it is much worse than PED use.  Manfred will also set the tone for this kind of punishment so that it will deter teams for doing something similar in the future.  He should lean more on a very harsh punishment.

They (MLB) can only fine the Cardinals. Due to the CBA, they can't get involved in the draft (compensatory) or playoff matters.  In all reality, since the Cardinals already took care of this matter in house, nothing will happen.

TrueBlue

Quote from: jrulz83 on January 18, 2016, 08:39:56 am
I thought I read that the owners and the Players Union canceled the season and just gave the 2016 WS trophy to the Cubs.


That is what everyone wants to think at the moment.  ???

ucahogfan

Quote from: hogcard1964 on January 18, 2016, 11:41:31 am
They (MLB) can only fine the Cardinals. Due to the CBA, they can't get involved in the draft (compensatory) or playoff matters.  In all reality, since the Cardinals already took care of this matter in house, nothing will happen.
Based on everything I have read about the situation, the MLB could do something in the draft about it, but it would be tough and require approval from several different places it seems like:

http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/st-louis-cardinals-sabermetrics-analysis/2016/1/12/10754038/cardinals-hacking-penalty-draft-picks-astros

So since the Cardinals handled the situation in-house, nothing else needs to happen?  Something like this has never happened before in baseball so Manfred is dealing with a situation with no established method of punishment.  He needs to lean more on the tough side when it comes to a minimum of a fine, but also needs to look at other methods.  The Cardinals also need to pay some sort of restitution to the Astros for stealing their information on numerous occasions.  There will be more things to come that what has already happened.

jrulz83

Quote from: TrueBlue on January 18, 2016, 05:37:05 pm
That is what everyone wants to think at the moment.  ???

It's a shame you're wasting your time watching those old guys hobble around in Florida. I hear Holliday is on a walker. ;D


Seriously though that is a pilgrimage I would love to make but haven't worked out yet. I hope you have a great time and be sure to share something interesting on here about your trip. 
Lenin is cautiously optimistic.

jbell96

So Wong has been making it known on the caravan tour that he wants to hit lead off, well Kolten, learn to have some plate discipline and I'm sure MM will think about it.

pigture perfect

With Redbird Rundown X eminent, I would like to say how I enjoyed the friendships made in these threads. Thanks. I am ready for the new season to begin, but don't hold out much hope of a repeat of last years success. 100 wins will be tough to get, but I do expect to make the playoffs as a wildcard to either Scubs or Bucs. This will probably be a bit of a rebuild year, but hopefully we can pick up some good free agents next year. If Mo will make the effort again. But who knows with him.. So, let's get ready to cheer those Redbirds and hope for the best.
The 2 biggest fools in the world: He who has an answer for everything and he who argues with him.  - original.<br /> <br />The first thing I'm going to ask a lawyer (when I might need one) is, "You don't post on Hogville do you?"

McKdaddy

Don't buy upgrades, ride up grades.

"You are everything that is wrong with this place . . . Ban me"

"CPI, ex-food and energy, is only good for an anorexic pedestrian"--Art Cashin

hoghappy

Trucks are on their way to Florida.

pigture perfect

Pitchers and catchers report Wednesday. Yadi appears ready to play opening day.
The 2 biggest fools in the world: He who has an answer for everything and he who argues with him.  - original.<br /> <br />The first thing I'm going to ask a lawyer (when I might need one) is, "You don't post on Hogville do you?"

hoghappy


McKdaddy

Yes, see X. Though I've not posted an article there in a week.
Don't buy upgrades, ride up grades.

"You are everything that is wrong with this place . . . Ban me"

"CPI, ex-food and energy, is only good for an anorexic pedestrian"--Art Cashin

clutch

Time to lock this bad boy up

pigture perfect

The 2 biggest fools in the world: He who has an answer for everything and he who argues with him.  - original.<br /> <br />The first thing I'm going to ask a lawyer (when I might need one) is, "You don't post on Hogville do you?"

hogcard1964

Quote from: jbell96 on January 19, 2016, 09:05:28 am
So Wong has been making it known on the caravan tour that he wants to hit lead off, well Kolten, learn to have some plate discipline and I'm sure MM will think about it.

BTW, Wong looks horrible.  I've seen about 4 st games this year, and he's made an error in every game I've seen.  His fielding footwork is a mess.  It appears he's not getting down on balls and can't bend at the waist.  Last error he made, he started laughing about it, after he made it.

Not sure this was a great contract extension.

clutch

Quote from: hogcard1964 on March 31, 2016, 12:17:42 pm
BTW, Wong looks horrible.  I've seen about 4 st games this year, and he's made an error in every game I've seen.  His fielding footwork is a mess.  It appears he's not getting down on balls and can't bend at the waist.  Last error he made, he started laughing about it, after he made it.

Not sure this was a great contract extension.

I'm still high on Wong. I think his fielding issues can be fixed pretty easily. He has tons of potential. Love his bat speed.

pigture perfect

I'm ready to see that potential be consistent.
The 2 biggest fools in the world: He who has an answer for everything and he who argues with him.  - original.<br /> <br />The first thing I'm going to ask a lawyer (when I might need one) is, "You don't post on Hogville do you?"

clutch

Quote from: pigture perfect on March 31, 2016, 06:24:39 pm
I'm ready to see that potential be consistent.

It's a hard game. He will get there I think.