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SEC Media Skeptical of Hogs 3-4 Defensive Switch

Started by Mike Irwin, July 16, 2017, 07:15:49 pm

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Mike Irwin

Razorback coaches and players have a different opinion of the team's switch to a 3-4 defense than some in the SEC Media.

http://www.nwahomepage.com/razorback-nation/sec-media-skeptical-of-hogs-3-4-defensive-switch/766996795

hogfanny

Well lets go to media day and reveal our defensive strategy by all means!! We'll really trick em now.

 

PorkRinds

Why would you change schemes and NOT change coordinators? Wouldn't you want to get someone with new blood who believes in that scheme instead of the guy that failed with the 4-3?

sowmonella

SEC Media is  :puke: Mike Irwin and our guys excluded of course.
Not trying to brag or make anyone jealous but I can still fit into the same pair of socks I wore in high school.
Proud member since August 2003

Al Boarland

Color me shocked the guys coaching and playing in the new system are optimistic...

Tortfeasor

Maybe, just maybe, we switched to the 3-4 because we had more players that fit that scheme than the 4-3.

Al Boarland

July 17, 2017, 07:48:11 am #6 Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 08:46:56 am by Al Boarland
Quote from: Tortfeasor on July 17, 2017, 06:15:41 am
Maybe, just maybe, we switched to the 3-4 because we had more players that fit that scheme than the 4-3.

I agree with this to an extent.  I think it's two fold.  I think the  current personnel are better suited for the 3-4 (read we don't have a lot of depth on the DL).  Not saying it will be top half of the league because I don't think we are that talented on D.  Maybe middle of the pack.  Also, I think with what we can do recruiting the 3-4 is a better fit because we aren't going to beat out most teams for the talent needed on DL to go two deep without much drop off. 

My greatest concern is that we can't recruit the elite LB talent needed for the 3-4 to be truly successful.

navyhog24


GuvHog

Quote from: Al Boarland on July 16, 2017, 11:34:25 pm
Color me shocked the guys coaching and playing in the new system are optimistic...

It doesn't shock me that the coaches know more about the players and what will work best than the media does.
Bleeding Razorback Red Since Birth!!!

Al Boarland

Quote from: GuvHog on July 17, 2017, 08:54:00 am
It doesn't shock me that the coaches know more about the players and what will work best than the media does.

Sorry if you didn't get the sarcasm.  While you may be right I would never expect coaches/players to say it's going to be a rough transition.  CBB is an optimistic guy.  You should know that by listening to him speak or reading his quotes. 

McKdaddy

Quote from: Al Boarland on July 17, 2017, 10:25:30 am
Sorry if you didn't get the sarcasm.  While you may be right I would never expect coaches/players to say it's going to be a rough transition.  CBB is an optimistic guy.  You should know that by listening to him speak or reading his quotes. 

^^^^
Don't buy upgrades, ride up grades.

"You are everything that is wrong with this place . . . Ban me"

"CPI, ex-food and energy, is only good for an anorexic pedestrian"--Art Cashin

GuvHog

Quote from: Al Boarland on July 17, 2017, 10:25:30 am
Sorry if you didn't get the sarcasm.  While you may be right I would never expect coaches/players to say it's going to be a rough transition.  CBB is an optimistic guy.  You should know that by listening to him speak or reading his quotes. 

I got the sarcasm. You're right that CBB is an optimistic person but DC Paul Rhoads doesn't pull any punches when talking about the hogs switch to the 3-4.
Bleeding Razorback Red Since Birth!!!

Al Boarland

Quote from: GuvHog on July 17, 2017, 10:33:01 am
I got the sarcasm. You're right that CBB is an optimistic person but DC Paul Rhoads doesn't pull any punches when talking about the hogs switch to the 3-4.

Rhodes is a rah rah guy.  He is going to talk up the transition for buy in.  So much of this stuff is psychological.  It's all good though.  We will find out early and often how quick the adjustment is.  We'll also find out if we have the ponies to match up.  Offenses are projected to take a step forward in the league this season and it's not like CPR is rolling out a new system that no one has ever seen.  Just about everyone puts 3 DL down at times.  Defeneses are multiple.  I'll give it to Mike.  Everyone is saying the right things as you would expect this time of year. 

 

McKdaddy

Quote from: Al Boarland on July 17, 2017, 10:45:01 am
Rhodes is a rah rah guy.  He is going to talk up the transition for buy in.  So much of this stuff is psychological.  It's all good though.  We will find out early and often how quick the adjustment is.  We'll also find out if we have the ponies to match up.  Offenses are projected to take a step forward in the league this season and it's not like CPR is rolling out a new system that no one has ever seen.  Just about everyone put 3 DL down at times.  Defeneses are multiple.  I'll give it to Mike.  Everyone is saying the right things as you would expect this time of year. 

Exactly.  I like CBB & CPR, but I sorta tune-out coach speak.
Don't buy upgrades, ride up grades.

"You are everything that is wrong with this place . . . Ban me"

"CPI, ex-food and energy, is only good for an anorexic pedestrian"--Art Cashin

Al Boarland

Quote from: McKdaddy on July 17, 2017, 10:50:19 am
Exactly.  I like CBB & CPR, but I sorta tune-out coach speak.

Yeah, it's hard to take what these coaches are saying in public seriously after they talked up the DL last season.  CBB was either blowing smoke (hopefully) or missed on his evaluation through spring and fall camp.  For a former DC that would be unacceptable, so I'll go with him talking things up as coaches do at times.  If that's the case, what would make this any different?

PossumFan

I'm a big CBB fan and supporter, but even I take his words with the proverbial salt grain after he guaranteed at halftime of the bowl game that we wouldn't see another second-half meltdown. (I write this as I'm watching replay of the first second-half collapse. Disheartening.)

colbs

Quote from: Al Boarland on July 17, 2017, 10:57:37 am
Yeah, it's hard to take what these coaches are saying in public seriously after they talked up the DL last season.  CBB was either blowing smoke (hopefully) or missed on his evaluation through spring and fall camp.  For a former DC that would be unacceptable, so I'll go with him talking things up as coaches do at times.  If that's the case, what would make this any different?
I don't really remember them talking up the DL last year.  If I remember correctly that was more the media/fans.  I think everyone underestimated how bad the OL would be.

colbs

Quote from: Al Boarland on July 17, 2017, 07:48:11 am
I agree with this to an extent.  I think it's two fold.  I think the  current personnel are better suited for the 3-4 (read we don't have a lot of depth on the DL).  Not saying it will be top half of the league because I don't think we are that talented on D.  Maybe middle of the pack.  Also, I think with what we can do recruiting the 3-4 is a better fit because we aren't going to beat out most teams for the talent needed on DL to go two deep without much drop off. 

My greatest concern is that we can't recruit the elite LB talent needed for the 3-4 to be truly successful.
I think the past few years they had some players on the DL that were "tweeners".  They were a little light/lacked strength to play DT but were unable to get much of a pass rush at DE.  Then players like Randy Ramsey that really didn't have a place in the base 4-3 defense, now do in the 3-4.  He was probably one of the best players on defense but really couldn't get on the field much last year. 

As far as recruiting LB, I get the concern because Arkansas hasn't had the best luck signing good LBs.  At the same time the depth is probably better than it has been in a long time.  I think you have 3 pretty sold LB's(Greenlaw, Ramsey, and Scoota) and one that can be pretty good(Eugene).  Also, a lot of the undersized DE's they have recruited in the past now fit the OLB position.

I do have my concern's overall but after last year's defense there has to be some changes.  I think there will be some improvement(hope anyways) but I think this team is still a year away from taking a big step on the defensive side.

daBoar

FAMU will be a big one?  I'm changing my projection.

GuvHog

Quote from: Al Boarland on July 17, 2017, 10:57:37 am
Yeah, it's hard to take what these coaches are saying in public seriously after they talked up the DL last season.  CBB was either blowing smoke (hopefully) or missed on his evaluation through spring and fall camp.  For a former DC that would be unacceptable, so I'll go with him talking things up as coaches do at times.  If that's the case, what would make this any different?

Paul Rhoads didn't do much talking last year, most of it was done by Rob Smith. Rhoads just kept a low profile and did what he was told to do by the former DC.
Bleeding Razorback Red Since Birth!!!

Al Boarland

Quote from: GuvHog on July 17, 2017, 12:43:47 pm
Paul Rhoads didn't do much talking last year, most of it was done by Rob Smith. Rhoads just kept a low profile and did what he was told to do by the former DC.

It's good to know everyone was standing by while that train wreck of D helped lose games.  Tremendous leadership from 3 defensive minded coaches.

Mike Irwin

I absolutely could be wrong but I watched every spring scrimmage and except for the first one the defense totally dominated the offense. The first scrimmage was three days in and there were no blitz packages installed.

Bielema is right. They have to do it in a game but if you were frustrated by the one dimensional nature of the defense under Robb Smith you will like what Rhoads brings to the table. They will attack this fall. Maybe they'll get burned doing it but at least they won't be sitting there like bowling pins when the ball is snapped.

PorkRyan

Quote from: Mike Irwin on July 17, 2017, 02:49:17 pm
I absolutely could be wrong but I watched every spring scrimmage and except for the first one the defense totally dominated the offense. The first scrimmage was three days in and there were no blitz packages installed.

Bielema is right. They have to do it in a game but if you were frustrated by the one dimensional nature of the defense under Robb Smith you will like what Rhoads brings to the table. They will attack this fall. Maybe they'll get burned doing it but at least they won't be sitting there like bowling pins when the ball is snapped.

It is no surprise we did well against our own offense.  That is a better matchup for our defense just like the Florida game last year.  Our problem has been when we face spread teams and have to work in space.  We will find out against TCU if we are improved. 

Cinco de Hogo

In no way under any circumstances do I expect greatness but I will say that as a package there is no pass just because of changing schemes and DC's.  You keep a HC for continuity, assistants come and go, schemes change with the wind...expectations don't.  Improvement or bust!   Hope, hype, belief it's all tied to past performances.  The less you get from past expectations the less you expect in the future.  I see big time bend don't break coming, that's worked for us in the past when the offense could do its part.  Package! 

 

Al Boarland

Quote from: PorkRyan on July 17, 2017, 02:57:33 pm
It is no surprise we did well against our own offense.  That is a better matchup for our defense just like the Florida game last year.  Our problem has been when we face spread teams and have to work in space.  We will find out against TCU if we are improved.

Also replacing key pieces on offense, so if the assumption is that the O of last season is what they were stopping that would not be accurate. 

farmhawg

Anything has to be better than last years D.
From theflyinghog

Jeff Long is sitting around drinking some fruity girl drink and reading this and realizing he was the wrong man for the job. We're crazy. We love us some damn hog football. There may be a bunch of suits sitting behind glass on gameday but dammit you better not cross us airplane-tracking, fence-jumping, hangar-breakin-entering night-vision purchasin sumbitches! We're Miracle on Markham and 4th and 25, 7 overtime-winning tear down the goalposts and drag em down Dickson because you ain't goin to the BCS, fat phil!! BRING ME A COACH WITH A PAIR AND SACRIFICE A VIRGIN CUZ ITS TIME TO FUSCING WIN!!!!

McKdaddy

Don't buy upgrades, ride up grades.

"You are everything that is wrong with this place . . . Ban me"

"CPI, ex-food and energy, is only good for an anorexic pedestrian"--Art Cashin

nwahogfan1

Usually anytime you make a alignment change it does take a couple years to recruit the right players.  So I understand their thinking.  Of course we are hoping we have the players in place but we are looking with hog glasses on,

I hope we are right

tophawg19

the 3-4 only uses 2 actual LB's , the other 2 are tweener types . small for DE but big for the average LB . Arkansas for some reason produces a lot of these type kids . but they didn't fit our 4-3 needs
if you ain't a hawg you ain't chitlins

tophawg19

Quote from: nwahogfan1 on July 17, 2017, 06:17:41 pm
Usually anytime you make a alignment change it does take a couple years to recruit the right players.  So I understand their thinking.  Of course we are hoping we have the players in place but we are looking with hog glasses on,

I hope we are right
to be honest , i think this move was planned with PR's hire so recruiting is partially in it's 2nd year
if you ain't a hawg you ain't chitlins

TNRazorbacker

I'm not expecting a good defense this year. New coach, new scheme, and we've been awful the last two years so regardless of scheme I just think it's a lot to expect a drastic improvement. I do expect to see some improvement though and think the effort to evaluate and make changes is promising. We'll see.

TNRazorbacker

Quote from: Mike Irwin on July 17, 2017, 02:49:17 pm
I absolutely could be wrong but I watched every spring scrimmage and except for the first one the defense totally dominated the offense. The first scrimmage was three days in and there were no blitz packages installed.

Bielema is right. They have to do it in a game but if you were frustrated by the one dimensional nature of the defense under Robb Smith you will like what Rhoads brings to the table. They will attack this fall. Maybe they'll get burned doing it but at least they won't be sitting there like bowling pins when the ball is snapped.

Absolutely agree. To Bielemas point I think the teams that have the personnel and depth to run a bland 4 front to just control the LOS is rare. The 3 front should be much more suited to our people. I can handle some burns if we are giving as much as we are getting. The last few years have seemingly been nothing but burn.

The Kig

Quote from: TNRazorbacker on July 18, 2017, 05:00:18 am
I'm not expecting a good defense this year. New coach, new scheme, and we've been awful the last two years so regardless of scheme I just think it's a lot to expect a drastic improvement. I do expect to see some improvement though and think the effort to evaluate and make changes is promising. We'll see.

Well stated...although I think we might be pleasantly surprised at them actually being deemed a good defense. 

Two main reasons:

*  Simply what Mike said.  CPR is going to call a more aggressive game.  Blitzes that never happened last year will get called.  Does that guarantee success or that we don't get burned by a smart QB picking up the blitz and burning us downfield occasionally?  No...but sometimes it will work and we will get a momentum changing play that fires everyone up.

*  The players attitude.  The guys that are still here from last year's team know they got boat raced and gave up monster plays leading us to a historically bad, worst in the NCAA against the run Defense.  I have been impressed with how they have handled themselves since then.  Focused, determined, and accountable to getting better.  Coaches can "make" players do many things, but I get the sense that the desire is ingrained in these guys. 

Does all this mean we are going to field an amazing D?  TBD...but we don't have to be amazing to show improvement.
Poker Porker

nchogg

Quote from: TNRazorbacker on July 18, 2017, 05:00:18 am
I'm not expecting a good defense this year. New coach, new scheme, and we've been awful the last two years so regardless of scheme I just think it's a lot to expect a drastic improvement. I do expect to see some improvement though and think the effort to evaluate and make changes is promising. We'll see.
You could be 100% right. This is the first year for Coach R as our DC but he knows the players and has their respect. Coach PR tells it like it is and our players will have more freedom to run to the ball. If we get more pressure on QB's that will be a massive improvement. I am very interested on seeing how it plays out on the field.

tophawg19

Quote from: Al Boarland on July 16, 2017, 11:34:25 pm
Color me shocked the guys coaching and playing in the new system are optimistic...
color me shocked that you hunt anything negative . why not wait till it's in place and on the field . you take  a clueless reporters word who hasn't even seen it in practice over our coaches who have . yep i'm shocked. There are a bunch on here posting now with nothing but negative stuff, quick to jump on any negative wave and ride the hell out of it. I really wonder if some of you are Arkansas fans at all
if you ain't a hawg you ain't chitlins

Al Boarland

Quote from: tophawg19 on July 18, 2017, 11:33:58 am
color me shocked that you hunt anything negative . why not wait till it's in place and on the field . you take  a clueless reporters word who hasn't even seen it in practice over our coaches who have . yep i'm shocked. There are a bunch on here posting now with nothing but negative stuff, quick to jump on any negative wave and ride the hell out of it. I really wonder if some of you are Arkansas fans at all

Sounds good. No one post their opinions until after we see it on the field. Should make for a great message board experience.

tophawg19

Our D-line had the potential to be good last year but the scheme didn't fit the players . The staff didn't adjust to fit the talent we had . especially at MLB and the D-Line wasn't allowed to use blitzes freely . then injury to wise hurt even more . Smith was the problem with the defense , he wasn't flexible enough in scheme
if you ain't a hawg you ain't chitlins

Al Boarland

Quote from: tophawg19 on July 18, 2017, 11:43:56 am
Our D-line had the potential to be good last year but the scheme didn't fit the players . The staff didn't adjust to fit the talent we had . especially at MLB and the D-Line wasn't allowed to use blitzes freely . then injury to wise hurt even more . Smith was the problem with the defense , he wasn't flexible enough in scheme

That's the trendy excuse. Now the 3-4 is the magic bullet to fix all the defensive woes. We shouldn't be discussing this until we see it on the field anyway, right?

nchogg

Quote from: Al Boarland on July 18, 2017, 11:50:03 am
That's the trendy excuse. Now the 3-4 is the magic bullet to fix all the defensive woes. We shouldn't be discussing this until we see it on the field anyway, right?
Makes sense to me but as fans we like to speculate and hope for the best.

tophawg19

Quote from: Al Boarland on July 18, 2017, 11:50:03 am
That's the trendy excuse. Now the 3-4 is the magic bullet to fix all the defensive woes. We shouldn't be discussing this until we see it on the field anyway, right?
you can discuss all you want , but you have two guys giving inside insight but you would rather go with a reporter who hasn't even seen the team working . It's speculation based on generalization over speculation based on actual visual input .
if you ain't a hawg you ain't chitlins

factchecker

WORK FOR IT
PLAN ON IT
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OMAHOGS

Al Boarland

Quote from: tophawg19 on July 18, 2017, 08:30:07 pm
you can discuss all you want , but you have two guys giving inside insight but you would rather go with a reporter who hasn't even seen the team working . It's speculation based on generalization over speculation based on actual visual input .

That's a fair point, but I'll stand by my post.

nwahogfan1

Quote from: Mike Irwin on July 17, 2017, 02:49:17 pm
I absolutely could be wrong but I watched every spring scrimmage and except for the first one the defense totally dominated the offense. The first scrimmage was three days in and there were no blitz packages installed.

Bielema is right. They have to do it in a game but if you were frustrated by the one dimensional nature of the defense under Robb Smith you will like what Rhoads brings to the table. They will attack this fall. Maybe they'll get burned doing it but at least they won't be sitting there like bowling pins when the ball is snapped.

Thank you Mike. 

Did they do a good job of mixing up their blitz packages?
How do you like their speed in the back 8?
Do you think we have the LBs and depth there

NuttinItUp

This is all subterfuge.

We will come out in the 1-6 defense and everyone is going to be confused.

FANONTHEHILL

Quote from: Mike Irwin on July 17, 2017, 02:49:17 pm
I absolutely could be wrong but I watched every spring scrimmage and except for the first one the defense totally dominated the offense. The first scrimmage was three days in and there were no blitz packages installed.

Bielema is right. They have to do it in a game but if you were frustrated by the one dimensional nature of the defense under Robb Smith you will like what Rhoads brings to the table. They will attack this fall. Maybe they'll get burned doing it but at least they won't be sitting there like bowling pins when the ball is snapped.

I believe you make the best point in your final two sentences.  Coach Rhoads defense will not be reactionary.  Pressure will force the offense to adapt, rather than the defense. Blitz and stunt packages will make playing defense fun again for the players. As Hamlin, Jackson, Caver, and Kennedy told the team this spring, they need to have an attitude and play with passion.  That was missing last year.
Favorite quote from practice.  Made to my son:<br /><br /><br />Technique is nice, but it comes down to this.  Block the F'er in front of you. - Sam Pittman 2015

bphi11ips

How does Peter Burns know we haven't been planning and recruiting for the switch for a few years?  Muskogee has mentioned several times the numbers we now have at LB.  I responded to one of his posts a while back suggesting that we may have been recruiting with an eye towards the switch and that Paul Rhoads may have been hired to implement it at some point.

I'm looking forward to the aggressive approach and think the SEC media may be in for a surprise.
Life is too short for grudges and feuds.

razorbrass

My thoughts...
1) The SEC championship runs through Bama.  When Saban moved to spread the field there was no reason to stay in the 4-3.  The 3-4 gets more speed on the field and the run blitzes can contain the power running game.
2) We are losing second half leads because our defense gets tired due to lack of depth.  The more attacking style can get offenses off the field quicker and produce turnovers.
3) Also, might as well attack because the bend but don't break mentality of the defense the last few years was giving up big plays.  Might as well be aggressive and give up big plays rather than be passive and do the same.
4) More flexibility/unpredictability
5) NFL scheme helps recruit players
6) 3-4 Does better fit the players in our main recruiting areas.
Ladies and Gentlemen can I please have your attention.  I've just been handed an urgent and horrifying news story and I need all of you to stop what you are doing and listen!

BigE_23

They have reason to be skeptical.

No doubt the scheme was terrible last year, and RS had to go. However, the problem has always been and will continue to be the fact that we can't tackle worth a plug nickel.

Doesn't matter if we run a 4-3, 3-4, a 46 or a freakin 3-5-3...if you can't tackle and make plays in space you're going to lose.

I can't count the number of times I've watched us have a guy in position only to miss the tackle - 3 yard losses that turn into 7 yard gains.

I. Just. Can't. Take. It.

Cinco de Hogo

Quote from: razorbrass on July 19, 2017, 10:58:37 pm
My thoughts...
1) The SEC championship runs through Bama.  When Saban moved to spread the field there was no reason to stay in the 4-3.  The 3-4 gets more speed on the field and the run blitzes can contain the power running game.
2) We are losing second half leads because our defense gets tired due to lack of depth.  The more attacking style can get offenses off the field quicker and produce turnovers.
3) Also, might as well attack because the bend but don't break mentality of the defense the last few years was giving up big plays.  Might as well be aggressive and give up big plays rather than be passive and do the same.
4) More flexibility/unpredictability
5) NFL scheme helps recruit players
6) 3-4 Does better fit the players in our main recruiting areas.

Oh we are going to bend and bend and bend...and break.  How much is the question.

Cinco de Hogo

Quote from: BigE_23 on July 20, 2017, 02:28:18 am
They have reason to be skeptical.

No doubt the scheme was terrible last year, and RS had to go. However, the problem has always been and will continue to be the fact that we can't tackle worth a plug nickel.

Doesn't matter if we run a 4-3, 3-4, a 46 or a freakin 3-5-3...if you can't tackle and make plays in space you're going to lose.

I can't count the number of times I've watched us have a guy in position only to miss the tackle - 3 yard losses that turn into 7 yard gains.

I. Just. Can't. Take. It.

I have watched just about every school we play tackle better than us for years now.  I just don't understand it!!!