Hogville Info
• 9,228,170 Posts
• 381,071 Topics
• 21,253 Hogvillians
THE RULES (Read 'em!)
Quick Links
Pick'Ems:Football      Basketball      Baseball
Sister Sites:Gridiron HistoryFearless Friday
Listen NOW:Game ON 103.3 
  
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7   Go Down

Author Topic: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?  (Read 6247 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

EastexHawg

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22,779
  • Hogville.net
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #150 on: May 19, 2017, 01:23:43 pm »

Wilt played in the same conference during the peak of the Celtics' dynasty, the greatest in NBA history.  In order to get to the Finals his Warriors/76ers teams had to take out a Red Auerbach team that included Bill Russell, John Havlicek, Bob Cousy, Sam Jones, Tom Heinsohn, and about six or seven more Hall of Famers.

If they did get to the Finals they had to play the Lakers...with Elgin Baylor and Jerry West, who at the time would have made up 40% of the all-time NBA first team.

Later, his Lakers took on a Bucks team with a young Kareem and Oscar Robertson.  They could play a little.

A couple of years after Wilt entered the league Nate Thurmond came along.  He was 6'11" and one of the greatest rebounders, shot blockers (3.5 to 4 per game during a stretch of several years in the late 60s and early 70s) and overall players in the league's history.  Willis Reed is a Hall of Famer who was a 20 point, 13-15 rebound center through most of Wilt's career.  Later the Big E, Elvin Hayes, came along and from the late 60s to early 70s had a four year stretch in which he averaged 27.5 points and 16.3 rebounds per game.

Ever hear of Bob Lanier?  He was a 6'11", 250 pound hulk who averaged 24 points and almost 15 rebounds per game as a full-time starter during Wilt's final years in the league.  Walt Bellamy's career almost perfectly spanned Wilt's.  All the did was average 29 points and 17.5 rebounds per game during his first three years in the NBA.  He was 6'11" as well.

Jerry Lucas is another Hall of Famer who averaged around 20 points and 18 rebounds during most of the 60s.  Bob Pettit averaged 28 points and 17 rebounds per game during Wilt's first five years.  He's one of the greatest players of all time, as are all the other centers I have listed. 

I haven't even touched on Zelmo Beaty, Elmore Smith, and Dave Cowens.

The only people who think Wilt Chamberlain didn't face not only good, but all-time great centers during his career are those who are either too young enough to know better or have never bothered to study anything that happened in the game before they started watching.  It's like basketball didn't exist before 1995, maybe 2005.
Logged

Porky McGee

  • Varsity
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 150
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #151 on: May 19, 2017, 03:02:17 pm »

Wilt played in the same conference during the peak of the Celtics' dynasty, the greatest in NBA history.  In order to get to the Finals his Warriors/76ers teams had to take out a Red Auerbach team that included Bill Russell, John Havlicek, Bob Cousy, Sam Jones, Tom Heinsohn, and about six or seven more Hall of Famers.

If they did get to the Finals they had to play the Lakers...with Elgin Baylor and Jerry West, who at the time would have made up 40% of the all-time NBA first team.

Later, his Lakers took on a Bucks team with a young Kareem and Oscar Robertson.  They could play a little.

A couple of years after Wilt entered the league Nate Thurmond came along.  He was 6'11" and one of the greatest rebounders, shot blockers (3.5 to 4 per game during a stretch of several years in the late 60s and early 70s) and overall players in the league's history.  Willis Reed is a Hall of Famer who was a 20 point, 13-15 rebound center through most of Wilt's career.  Later the Big E, Elvin Hayes, came along and from the late 60s to early 70s had a four year stretch in which he averaged 27.5 points and 16.3 rebounds per game.

Ever hear of Bob Lanier?  He was a 6'11", 250 pound hulk who averaged 24 points and almost 15 rebounds per game as a full-time starter during Wilt's final years in the league.  Walt Bellamy's career almost perfectly spanned Wilt's.  All the did was average 29 points and 17.5 rebounds per game during his first three years in the NBA.  He was 6'11" as well.

Jerry Lucas is another Hall of Famer who averaged around 20 points and 18 rebounds during most of the 60s.  Bob Pettit averaged 28 points and 17 rebounds per game during Wilt's first five years.  He's one of the greatest players of all time, as are all the other centers I have listed. 

I haven't even touched on Zelmo Beaty, Elmore Smith, and Dave Cowens.

The only people who think Wilt Chamberlain didn't face not only good, but all-time great centers during his career are those who are either too young enough to know better or have never bothered to study anything that happened in the game before they started watching.  It's like basketball didn't exist before 1995, maybe 2005.
Once again, we already talked about how many more rebounding opportunities there were in that era. Teams AVEREGED 70+ rebounds a game back then because of pace and lower shooting percentages. The overall quality of player back then and overall athletic ability of players in that era is not even comparable to what you see today. There is a reason nobody out there: media, basketball reporters, anybody along those lines debates "Jordan vs Wilt: whose the GOAT?" It's Jordan vs Lebron, Jordan vs Magic, Jordan vs Kobe (will never understand this one). I've already said Wilt is a top 5 center all time, that's all he deserves. Can you honestly say that his era is comparable top to bottom to anything post 1984? Basketball has evolved light years ahead of where it was in the 60s. There are too many people out there saying that Lebron is the greatest ALREADY. I don't agree that he's the greatest already but you can look at his career path and see that by the time it is all said and done there will be absolutely no debate who the top 2 players to step on a court are. MJ and LeBron. He's tied already for most 1st team all NBA selections, 7th in all time scoring and he's only 32, he's 12th in assists and will make a very strong push for the top 5. He's easily going to finish his career in the top 2 in scoring and at least top 7 in assists, that's incredible. Don't mean to insult the era you grew up watching, that's just the way it is.
Logged

Sponsored Ad



Hogville encourages you to do business with the following...

EastexHawg

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22,779
  • Hogville.net
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #152 on: May 19, 2017, 04:17:41 pm »

Can you honestly say that his era is comparable top to bottom to anything post 1984?

Who are the great centers since Shaq and Hakeem?  Who are the great centers playing in the league today? 

Do I think Wilt Chamberlain, at 7'1", 275-300 pounds, and a great enough athlete to win the high jump in the Big Eight Track & Field Championship while at Kansas and later become a world class volleyball player after retirement, would dominate in the NBA today?  Yes, I do.  Chamberlain was not only a great athlete, he also possessed incredible physical strength and endurance.  People in this thread have talked about how many more shots there were in Wilt's day, meaning the game was faster paced.  Despite that Chamberlain averaged 46 minutes per game for his career and actually played every minute of every game one year, averaging 48.5 (overtimes let him average more than 48).    No one played that many minutes before him and no one has done it after him.  LeBron led the league in minutes this year with 37.8 and only three players have played 40 per game in the last nine years, none of them centers.  His stamina is probably unmatched in basketball history.
Logged

Hawg414

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 3,238
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #153 on: May 19, 2017, 04:33:59 pm »

His stamina is probably unmatched in basketball history.

elsewhere too  ;)
Logged

Porky McGee

  • Varsity
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 150
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #154 on: May 19, 2017, 05:20:57 pm »

Who are the great centers since Shaq and Hakeem?  Who are the great centers playing in the league today? 

Do I think Wilt Chamberlain, at 7'1", 275-300 pounds, and a great enough athlete to win the high jump in the Big Eight Track & Field Championship while at Kansas and later become a world class volleyball player after retirement, would dominate in the NBA today?  Yes, I do.  Chamberlain was not only a great athlete, he also possessed incredible physical strength and endurance.  People in this thread have talked about how many more shots there were in Wilt's day, meaning the game was faster paced.  Despite that Chamberlain averaged 46 minutes per game for his career and actually played every minute of every game one year, averaging 48.5 (overtimes let him average more than 48).    No one played that many minutes before him and no one has done it after him.  LeBron led the league in minutes this year with 37.8 and only three players have played 40 per game in the last nine years, none of them centers.  His stamina is probably unmatched in basketball history.
You didn't answer the question though. You redirected it to centers...again. Everyone knows that the true center is more or less outdated. I said the league top to bottom, all around, is much much better than it was then. No denying that. Not to mention the overall complexity of the game. Maybe pace was faster, meaning shots were put up quicker back then, but that doesn't account for speed of the game (in a literal sense). Not sure why you just keep bringing up big men.
elsewhere too  ;)
;D ;D lol
Logged

EastexHawg

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22,779
  • Hogville.net
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #155 on: May 19, 2017, 08:26:17 pm »

Nobody says Wilt was the greatest ever?  Here are the opinions of 21 Hall of Famers.  Three of them pick Wilt and another, Oscar Robertson, doesn't pick one but mentions Wilt while saying Jordan is not the best.  Another says Chamberlain is the greatest scorer of all time.

Of the players who actually played against him, I think Wilt was named more often than anyone.

http://otaviopinto.com/index.php/2015/11/11/the-best-basketball-player-of-all-time-according-to-nba-legends/
Logged

poloprince

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 4,550
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #156 on: May 19, 2017, 08:36:57 pm »

Bron will never pass MJ imo. They are 1 and 1a. Give me both of them and I'd never lose
Logged

Porky McGee

  • Varsity
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 150
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #157 on: May 19, 2017, 09:18:34 pm »

Nobody says Wilt was the greatest ever?  Here are the opinions of 21 Hall of Famers.  Three of them pick Wilt and another, Oscar Robertson, doesn't pick one but mentions Wilt while saying Jordan is not the best.  Another says Chamberlain is the greatest scorer of all time.

Of the players who actually played against him, I think Wilt was named more often than anyone.

http://otaviopinto.com/index.php/2015/11/11/the-best-basketball-player-of-all-time-according-to-nba-legends/
Nice find. All of the older players will say Wilt cause they never played Jordan. You really expect Isaiah Thomas to pick Jordan? Lol. Malone and Stockton won't either, he's the sole reason they don't have a ring. Wilt only winning 2 rings will hurt him in a topic like this. Don't care about that celtics dynasty. Look, you're entitled to your opinion. Most people won't agree with it, and for good reason. It's a great conversation cause of all the different opinions. Will be fun to revisit in 8 years or so when lebron a career is over. I've gotta ask, do you think Wilt or Jordan is the greatest? I can't tell from reading your posts.
Logged

crayola99

  • Varsity
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 340
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #158 on: May 19, 2017, 09:27:22 pm »

In these debates, MJ fans can and will back their positions with stats, championships, level of play, etc. arguments.  Same with LBJ fans.  It really just boils down to one question stated different ways - Put MJ and LBJ on the same team and who is the leader of that team?  Who follows whom to the championship?  Who takes the last shot?  Honestly, I don't think these questions are even debatable.  Both objective MJ and LBJ fans should agree on the answer to these questions and, ultimately, the answer to the original posters question.
Logged

EastexHawg

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22,779
  • Hogville.net
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #159 on: May 19, 2017, 11:54:46 pm »

I've gotta ask, do you think Wilt or Jordan is the greatest? I can't tell from reading your posts.

They played completely different positions and games so it's a difficult question.  I will say that no one has ever been as dominant individually as Wilt.  Through his first eight seasons he averaged something like 39 points and 24-25 rebounds per game.  He's not only the only player ever to average 50 for a season, he averaged 44 the next year and he's also the only one to surpass 40. 

According to Wilt Alex Hannum told him to quit shooting and pass more, so he did.  By 1967 he finally had some talent around him and his Sixers set the all-time record for wins in a season (68) and won the championship.  Along the way Wilt averaged almost 8 assists one year and then averaged 8.6 to lead the league the next.  Of course...no other player in history has ever led the NBA in each of the three major statistical categories of scoring, rebounds, and assists.

Five years later in L.A. his Lakers broke the wins record his 76ers had set, won a league record 33 games in a row, and won another championship.  Wilt kept heeding the advice not to shoot as much, which he said later was a mistake.  Considering he set another all-time record by shooting 72.7% from the field one year, it's hard to say he is wrong.

It's also hard to say a player who starred on two different teams that set league records (since broken) for wins in a season, won league titles, and set a record for consecutive wins that may never be broken, wasn't a winner.  He played during the greatest dynasty in sports history, the Celtics when Red Auerbach could use his power and rules like territorial draft picks to load his roster with Hall of Famers, and that undoubtedly prevented Wilt from winning more titles.

I guess the short answer is that I lean toward Chamberlain as the greatest ever, but again I don't feel strongly about it.  Jordan was incomparable as a backcourt player.
Logged

fineswine

  • Senior
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 914
  • Hogville.net
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #160 on: May 20, 2017, 07:22:23 am »

Depends. Is this David Sterns' version of professional wrestling NBA that allowed Jordan to do whatever to keep the league (and its marquee player) marketable? If so, then Jordan. If the playing field is level (not rigged) then James. Wilt was the most dominant player ever, period.
Logged

Hawg Red

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 8,938
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #161 on: May 20, 2017, 09:25:48 am »

Depends. Is this David Sterns' version of professional wrestling NBA that allowed Jordan to do whatever to keep the league (and its marquee player) marketable? If so, then Jordan. If the playing field is level (not rigged) then James. Wilt was the most dominant player ever, period.

What reality are you living in where the playing field is level for LeBron but was stacked in favor of Jordan?
Logged

Scott7703

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4,031
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #162 on: May 20, 2017, 09:42:20 am »

Jordan and it isn't close.
Logged

GoHogs1091

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,127
  • Hogville.net Rocks!
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #163 on: May 20, 2017, 01:47:01 pm »

Lebron has basically won his NBA Championships on his own.

Jordan couldn't win his NBA Championships without Pippen.

The State of Arkansas has had an undeniable impact on the legacy of Jordan.  One impact was the 1984 game at the Pine Bluff Convention Center, and the other was the impact of Arkansan, Scottie Pippen, who did all the grunt work that enabled Jordan to get all of the glory.

A true bona-fide greatest of all-time basketball player doesn't allow his undefeated #1 ranked North Carolina team to lose to an unranked Razorback team in Pine Bluff.
Logged

hog.goblin

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 10,580
  • It's not revenge he's after. It's a reckoning.
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #164 on: May 20, 2017, 01:52:32 pm »

Lebron has basically won his NBA Championships on his own.

Jordan couldn't win his NBA Championships without Pippen.

Delusional

Pippen, or
Bosh, Wade, Irving, Love, Allen
Logged

GoHogs1091

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,127
  • Hogville.net Rocks!
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #165 on: May 20, 2017, 02:03:09 pm »

Delusional

Pippen, or
Bosh, Wade, Irving, Love, Allen

Lebron could have won NBA Championships without those others.

Jordan had to have Pippen.  No ands-ifs-or-buts about Jordan not being able to win without Pippen.   

An argument could be made that Kobe Bryant is greater than James or Jordan.
Logged

Dominicanhog

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 5,399
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #166 on: May 20, 2017, 02:34:22 pm »

MJ's got the stats (reg and post season) for an argument for GOAT, but so does LBJ and a few other players. The clear separation, though, is what MJ did in the postseason. Once he got to the Finals, he owned them. 6 out of 6 with no game 7s, and he played in a much tougher Eastern Conference gauntlet to get to the Finals each year than LBJ does. MJ also didn't play on teams loaded with all-stars / all-pros / future HOFers like some of the other greats have had while racking up titles (Russell, Magic, Bird, Kareem, for example). LBJ has actually had more all-star / all-pro help than MJ had when you look at supporting cast (not a big advantage, but an advantage nonetheless), although he too has not had rosters full of all-stars like others had.

For me, this comes down to being the best when the dust settles for titles ... afterall, that's what they play for ultimately. Not only did MJ win them all  once he got there 6 times, he likely would have gone 10 for 10 if not for retiring early TWICE. LBJ's had too many lapses as a player in big moments throughout his career -- and as recently as 2 of the last 3 Finals -- to make a good case for GOAT on the same planet that MJ played on. He's 3 of 7 in Finals, and needed a collapse by SA to not be 2 of 7. A lot of that coming up short was on him, too. So goat, yeah, but not GOAT.

Now, that's where things stand today. If LBJ rings up 3-4 more titles before he's done, I'd have to look at the entire arc from that vantage point and re-evaluate.

do you think MJ could have taken that Cleveland team to the title last year?
Logged

Dominicanhog

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 5,399
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #167 on: May 20, 2017, 02:38:07 pm »

Delusional

Pippen, or
Bosh, Wade, Irving, Love, Allen

Pippen, Rodman over either of those sets.. and wasn't Love out last year or was that the year before..

Matter of fact, after their first 3 titles and his retirement, didn't Scottie and the Pip's have the 2nd best record in the east and lost in the semi-finals the next year w/o MJ?
Logged

HiggiePiggy

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 10,971
  • Hope...
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #168 on: May 20, 2017, 03:26:21 pm »

Pippen, Rodman over either of those sets.. and wasn't Love out last year or was that the year before..

Matter of fact, after their first 3 titles and his retirement, didn't Scottie and the Pip's have the 2nd best record in the east and lost in the semi-finals the next year w/o MJ?

Yes.  What made Jordan and even Kobe was really Phil Jackson neither of them won anything until Phil got there and began running his system. 
Logged

hog.goblin

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 10,580
  • It's not revenge he's after. It's a reckoning.
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #169 on: May 20, 2017, 03:33:15 pm »

Pippen, Rodman over either of those sets.. and wasn't Love out last year or was that the year before..

Matter of fact, after their first 3 titles and his retirement, didn't Scottie and the Pip's have the 2nd best record in the east and lost in the semi-finals the next year w/o MJ?

Wrong several times

Rodman wasn't on the team the first 3 championships
They finished 3rd in the east that year without MJ
They lost in the 2nd round of the playoffs
Logged

hog.goblin

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 10,580
  • It's not revenge he's after. It's a reckoning.
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #170 on: May 20, 2017, 03:37:50 pm »

Lebron could have won NBA Championships without those others.

Jordan had to have Pippen.  No ands-ifs-or-buts about Jordan not being able to win without Pippen.   

An argument could be made that Kobe Bryant is greater than James or Jordan.

I'm not sure why I'm arguing with you at this point.  Based on this I'm not sure you watched any of these seasons.  Pippen was a better defender than Wade, but Wade was a much a better shooter and scorer.  Now add Bosh and for MJ add...Bill Cartwright? 

1) MJ
2) LJ making his case
10 - 15 notches later KB
Logged

ErieHog

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 48,897
  • Life as a Politics Mod....
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #171 on: May 20, 2017, 03:45:38 pm »

I'm not sure why I'm arguing with you at this point.  Based on this I'm not sure you watched any of these seasons.  Pippen was a better defender than Wade, but Wade was a much a better shooter and scorer.  Now add Bosh and for MJ add...Bill Cartwright? 

1) MJ
2) LJ making his case
10 - 15 notches later KB

You want to start a real fight, tell a Laker fan that Kobe's the 2nd or 3rd best player of his generation and watch them implode.

Logged

Dominicanhog

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 5,399
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #172 on: May 20, 2017, 04:20:14 pm »

Wrong several times

Rodman wasn't on the team the first 3 championships
They finished 3rd in the east that year without MJ
They lost in the 2nd round of the playoffs

I know Rodman was not on that team.. I was making different statements.. said i would take Pippen Rodman over any of the other sets....  but you are correct about the 3rd in east .. thought they lost to the Knicks in the eastern Finals.. thanks for correcting... they still won 55 games..
Logged

hog.goblin

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 10,580
  • It's not revenge he's after. It's a reckoning.
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #173 on: May 20, 2017, 05:43:54 pm »

I know Rodman was not on that team.. I was making different statements.. said i would take Pippen Rodman over any of the other sets....  but you are correct about the 3rd in east .. thought they lost to the Knicks in the eastern Finals.. thanks for correcting... they still won 55 games..

That was the 2nd round.  Knicks beat the Pacers in the Eastern Finals.

I would take Wade and Bosh over Pippen and Rodman, but there isn't much of a difference.  LJ has had 2 additional stars on every team since Miami.  MJ only had one star in Pippen.

But what LJ did at Cleveland on his own the first go around was pretty amazing and is the best argument for his greatness.
Logged

Dominicanhog

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 5,399
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #174 on: May 20, 2017, 05:52:48 pm »

That was the 2nd round.  Knicks beat the Pacers in the Eastern Finals.

I would take Wade and Bosh over Pippen and Rodman, but there isn't much of a difference.  LJ has had 2 additional stars on every team since Miami.  MJ only had one star in Pippen.

But what LJ did at Cleveland on his own the first go around was pretty amazing and is the best argument for his greatness.

Rodman NOT a star?  Piston's retired his jersey, Naismith Hall of Fame, 5 titles, not a star?...... I'd take Pippen and Rodman over any of LBJ's supporting cast...
Logged

hog.goblin

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 10,580
  • It's not revenge he's after. It's a reckoning.
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #175 on: May 21, 2017, 02:46:41 pm »

Rodman NOT a star?  Piston's retired his jersey, Naismith Hall of Fame, 5 titles, not a star?...... I'd take Pippen and Rodman over any of LBJ's supporting cast...

I've been talking about MJ's first 3 NBA championships.  The ones without Rodman.
Logged

hawginbigd1

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4,654
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #176 on: May 21, 2017, 03:15:17 pm »

You want to start a real fight, tell a Laker fan that Kobe's the 2nd or 3rd best player of his generation and watch them implode.
Yep because you're wrong again, Kobe took the mantle from Jordan, and Lebron has taken it from Kobe. So they are really different generations in their prime. Kobe probably has the greatest championship resume of the 3. His last 2 were with much lower talent level teams, than Lebron or MJ.
Logged

ErieHog

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 48,897
  • Life as a Politics Mod....
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #177 on: May 21, 2017, 04:32:58 pm »

Yep because you're wrong again, Kobe took the mantle from Jordan, and Lebron has taken it from Kobe. So they are really different generations in their prime. Kobe probably has the greatest championship resume of the 3. His last 2 were with much lower talent level teams, than Lebron or MJ.

He's no Duncan, and he's no LeBron.  3rd best of his generation-- which is admittedly pretty long, but both players essentially overlapped 65%+  of the same era.
Logged

RebHog

  • Bench Warmer
  • ***
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 70
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #178 on: May 21, 2017, 07:43:47 pm »

Lebron could have won NBA Championships without those others.

Jordan had to have Pippen.  No ands-ifs-or-buts about Jordan not being able to win without Pippen.   

An argument could be made that Kobe Bryant is greater than James or Jordan.

Lebron bolted the first time cause he couldn't win without the "others"  you do remember that?   :-\  How was his play vs boston? When you talk about the greatest ever any lil blip counts ya his team wasn't that great but grade his individual play honestly and tell me he didn't give up.
Logged

Dominicanhog

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 5,399
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #179 on: May 21, 2017, 09:31:04 pm »

Lebron bolted the first time cause he couldn't win without the "others"  you do remember that?   :-\  How was his play vs boston? When you talk about the greatest ever any lil blip counts ya his team wasn't that great but grade his individual play honestly and tell me he didn't give up.

sooo, he's a quitter..haha!
Logged

Hogimus Prime

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 4,541
  • Roll Out
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #180 on: May 21, 2017, 10:10:44 pm »

It's the NBA all of the greats had a great sidekick or two. Jordan never won without Pippen or Grant/Rodmam.  Kobe had Shaq/Gasoul and Bynaum. Magic had Kareem, Worthy, Scott and Cooper. Bird had McHale and Parrish.
Logged

JD Hogg

  • Senior
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 1,146
  • Fire Chuckles!!
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #181 on: May 21, 2017, 10:30:46 pm »

Boston without their best player just beat Cleveland. This game illustrates why LeBron can not be considered GOAT.  MJ would never let that happen. LeBron is a great player, he's just not the GOAT.
Logged

Hawg Red

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 8,938
Logged

Hawg Red

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 8,938
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #183 on: May 21, 2017, 11:36:52 pm »

Very, very damaging to the GOAT discussion for LeBron because we know that history told us MJ would have rather died than go scoreless in the final 16 (!!!) minutes of a playoff game, let alone a conference finals game. And the other team is without their best player.

I'm not really sure how anyone could excuse this away. These are the kinds of things that separate Jordan for LeBron.
Logged

The Hawg Marshal

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 4,063
  • " National Champs 1909,1964 and 1977. "
Logged

PonderinHog

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 48,085
  • Go Hogs and Go Mike Anderson!
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #185 on: May 22, 2017, 12:13:11 am »

From GOAT to goat in one half.

Logged

factchecker

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4,342
  • RAZORBACKS OR NOTHING!
Logged

alohawg

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18,814
  • Go Hogs!
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #187 on: May 22, 2017, 03:07:01 am »

Michael Jordan is the GOAT, period. Give me Magic, Bird, and Kareem next with guys like Hakeem, Wilt, Russell and LBJ vying for my Top 5.

MJ was not only unstoppable, but once he got to the Finals, he was unbeatable. Does anyone really doubt he would have gone 10 for 10 in titles had he not retired early TWICE? People talk about LBJ being better at making other players and teams better, but in the playoffs WHEN IT MATTERED MOST -- when the competition is better every night, when the physicality and pressure go up several notches, when the best either lead or get out of the way -- MJ delivered on the highest stage with all the pressure, while LBJ has failed more than he has won.

In 2 of the last 3 seasons alone, not only did LBJ's teams lose in the Finals, but players at his same position -- Khawi of SA and Igoudola of GS -- won Finals MVPs while outplaying LBJ in series turning points (situations and entire games). Of his 3 titles in 7 tries, LBJ needed a complete, uncharacteristic collapse by SA in the final few minutes of Game 6 to avoid being 2-5 in Finals.

Meanwhile, MJ never played in a Finals Game 7, and there's a reason for that: The best player ever was also the best closer ever. It will never be replicated. GOAT.

Better teammate? MJ got more from his teammates in the playoffs because he led by example while demanding his teammates raise their level of play. In that regard, MJ was actually better than LBJ at making guys around him better when it was win or go home. And as others have stated, MJ played in the golden era of basketball and had a much tougher path (Eastern Conference back then compared to now) to even get to the Finals.

If I'm building a team, I'd take MJ, Magic, and Bird all ahead of LeBron James.

This
Logged

King Kong

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,956
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #188 on: May 22, 2017, 10:54:36 am »

Lebron could have won NBA Championships without those others.

No, he couldn't have. If he could have he would have by now. That's the reason he left Cleveland to begin with.

Every LeBron champion has had atleast 2 other All Star caliber players on it.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 08:37:01 pm by King Kong »
Logged

EastexHawg

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22,779
  • Hogville.net
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #189 on: May 22, 2017, 11:17:56 am »

Disappearing at crunch time of big games used to be the knock against LeBron.  He has overcome that in the last few years.  It will be interesting to see if this was a one time bad game or if it has lasting effects, including psychological.  If Boston is able to win another game or two and make a series of it, which I doubt, last night's game will take on more significance as opposed to being a mere blip on the radar.
Logged

sickboy

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 6,188
Logged

Hawg Red

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 8,938
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #191 on: May 22, 2017, 12:25:19 pm »

Why was the cutoff 15 points?

Jordan's lowest point total in a playoff game.
Logged

sickboy

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 6,188
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #192 on: May 22, 2017, 12:41:33 pm »

Jordan's lowest point total in a playoff game.

Got it. I'm a huge Jordan fan. And I think he's the greatest ever. Was my childhood hero. But I also don't think Lebron having six bad scoring games in his overall playoff career is remarkable. It's only notable because it's rare. MJ's career scoring is notable because he rarely if ever had a bad game at all. He was a scoring machine.

Still, Lebron is the best overall player to come around since Jordan. But the two players are so different in terms of how they play the game and the NBA is totally different now than where it was in the 80's-90's... it's really hard to compare the two.
Logged

Hawg Red

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 8,938
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #193 on: May 22, 2017, 01:05:54 pm »

Got it. I'm a huge Jordan fan. And I think he's the greatest ever. Was my childhood hero. But I also don't think Lebron having six bad scoring games in his overall playoff career is remarkable. It's only notable because it's rare. MJ's career scoring is notable because he rarely if ever had a bad game at all. He was a scoring machine.

Still, Lebron is the best overall player to come around since Jordan. But the two players are so different in terms of how they play the game and the NBA is totally different now than where it was in the 80's-90's... it's really hard to compare the two.

LeBron has had some really bad big, big games where he disappeared. May or may not be evidence in the final box score.

I honestly don't think it's hard to compare greatness between the two because, at least to me, so much of that greatness is determined by their mentalities. LeBron has had to psyche himself into being a killer whereas it came naturally to Jordan. Cutting the other team's throat was a given for Jordan. LeBron has let Wade and Bosh carry the Heat before. When you are picking the greatest player ever, you probably want someone that you know for absolute certain will be a killer. At least it's a big factor for me.
Logged

Youngsta71701

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4,636
  • There's a God somewhere.
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #194 on: May 22, 2017, 04:01:48 pm »

MJ and it's not even close. LeBron is just bigger. Kill this comparison please. Two totally different type of players.

Jordan = Greatest Player
LeBron = Greatest Talent

Jordan = Assassin/Killer
LeBron = Pass First
Logged

Kevin McPherson

  • Moderator
  • Senior
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 1,182
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #195 on: May 22, 2017, 07:55:26 pm »

Disappearing at crunch time of big games used to be the knock against LeBron.  He has overcome that in the last few years.  It will be interesting to see if this was a one time bad game or if it has lasting effects, including psychological.  If Boston is able to win another game or two and make a series of it, which I doubt, last night's game will take on more significance as opposed to being a mere blip on the radar.

LBJ was routinely outplayed in big games and/or critical game-situations by players at his position -- Kawhi and Iggy -- in 2 of the past 3 years. And those guys won Finals MVPs as a result. Maybe LBJ is past it now, but I need to see him own the Finals consistently like MJ did to consider him for GOAT. I think there's a much better argument for him as 2nd-best, but I still have guys like Magic, Bird, and Kareem ahead of him.
Logged

Hogimus Prime

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 4,541
  • Roll Out
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #196 on: May 22, 2017, 08:04:13 pm »

Lebron always reminded me of Chris Webber in that he would shrink or disappear at crucial times.
Logged

IAMHogholio

  • Varsity
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 277
  • Hogging the Spotlight
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #197 on: May 23, 2017, 12:36:35 am »

MJ!

He was far superior.   The physical abuse he took and still scored 30+ a game?   When he defeated the Piston Bad boys?   They had the "Jordan Rules"' which meant beat the living s$$t out of him.  Every game, playoff or regular season he did something that made you go "wow."  He was also the toughest mentally of his generation and that's saying something when you look at the greats of his era.   He'd average 40+ a game and triple double in this weak arse defensive NBA.   

Tex Winter called Jordan and Pippen the dobermans.   When they "released the dobermans" the other team was just shut down.   By the third championship year it was just lunch pail work for them.   They owned the NBA.   It was amazing and über cool to watch and enjoy Pippen along with MJ.   

From 1993-1998 I watched 99% of all the Chicago Bulls games.  He was a once in a lifetime athlete.   His peers are Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, and Jim Brown.   Not any other NBA player of any era.

Lebron can't touch that.   He's barely the best of his era.   More of a Shaq and Kobe peer.   He's Magic Johnson with better athleticism. 

I'd bet my house that Pippen would shut Lebron down and pull down a triple double while doing it.  MJ'd score 50+ and Rodman would pull down 20 rebounds. 

Period.
Logged

OS2 (SW) Razor Back

  • Hogvillian
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 1,698
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #198 on: May 23, 2017, 01:25:23 am »

Magic all day  every day.
Logged

Dominicanhog

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 5,399
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: MJ or LBJ: Who You Got?
« Reply #199 on: May 23, 2017, 05:51:13 am »

Magic all day  every day.

I've always thought he was the best player of all time, but the question was MJ or LJ... well, I guess MJ could have been Magic Johnson.. Ok, I'm changing my choice.. Magic was the man... if I was starting a team, he'd be the one I'd take..
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7   Go Up
 

KARK
KWNA
Fox 16 Arkansas