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Poll

Knowing what we know now - would you let your kid play football?

yes
no
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bennyl08

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #150 on: May 10, 2017, 05:27:55 pm »

At this point, arguing that football does not make one more susceptible to a brain injury is like arguing that cigarettes aren't bad for you.

Not quite.

At this point in the analogy, we've noticed a lot of people who died of lung cancer also smoked. We are still trying to figure out how many people who smoke will get lung cancer. What in cigarettes or other tobacco products would lead to a causal relationship? However, we would be seeing how smoking decreases lung capacity and can damage the tissue with just a minimal amount of smoking.
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bphi11ips

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #151 on: May 10, 2017, 05:35:42 pm »

Why does it have to be either/or? Why can't it be both/and??

The stuff I'm reading is coming from scientific research conducted by the leading researchers in their field.

Common sense tells me that the players from the leather-head era weren't the athletes that we see today or even in the last 25-30 years. Frank Broyles didn't play football with freaks of nature that weigh 230+ lbs and run the forty in 4.5 seconds. Just using what little common sense I have, I would guess that for every 5000 Jim Harris millionaire success stories, there's a paralyzed Eric Lagrand. Common sense tells me that the game is progressing faster than the science can keep up with and the athletes are getting stronger and faster at younger ages...so things are going to get worse before they get better.

What I see happening on a regular basis is some horror story of a former NFL player losing his mind and killing people before he then kills himself, or a Junior Seau-type suicide...then we find out that the families of these men donated their brains to scientific studies that in turn reveal that these guys have the signs of massive head trauma resulting from football.

I'm happy for your boy...I really am. Congratulations to you and your family! (no sarcasm I mean that sincerely)

But what about the family in Ohio that buried their son last year after a football related head injury during a HS game? Or the family in Texas? Or Louisiana? These weren't all-American athletes who got injured in high-impact D1 games...these were just ordinary HS kids playing the same game I grew up playing. One of those deaths resulted from an injury in a JV game. We can't ignore the science or what's happening right in front of our faces. To do so rejects common sense.

I'm going to mess up a lot as a parent...I know this because I already have, but I'm going to continue to do my best to protect both of my beautiful kids. I'm not going to insulate myself from reality. Hopefully and by God's grace, I can be both informed and exercise common sense.

Good post.  I agree all of us should be both informed and exercise common sense when making decisions related to the welfare of our children.  You've probably seen the report above asserting that cheerleading is the number one sport causing concussions other than football.  Well, my daughter is a cheerleader.  She is just as devoted to her sport as my son. 

Football deaths have actually dropped substantially since the mid-70's, when a 1976 rule change made it illegal to make initial contact with the head and face while blocking and tackling.  The change was prompted by an American Football Coaches Association study called the Annual Football Injury Survey that has been done annually since 1931, when over 40 players were killed playing football, the most since Teddy Roosevelt outlawed college football in 1905.  Here's a link to a comprehensive report for the years 1931-2013:

http://www.mtv.com/news/2371458/high-school-football-players-dying-safe-statistics/

"I think cases are getting more national attention than they used to by conventional news outlets and there is also more grassroots exposure on social media to the emotional aspects of these cases ... parents posting on Facebook from the hospital, etc."

In summary, the debate in this thread is healthy in my opinion, both for those who would allow their children to play football and for those who won't.  My testimony has been personal.  My experiences have been almost entirely positive.  I have seen football positively influence the lives of many men.  But that is not to detract from the dozen or more high school families devastated every year by the death of a player.  That is not a denial that football does, in some instances, cause long-term neurological damage. 

Sports are dangerous to some extent.  Statistics about other sports are posted in this thread.  Football, any way you want to view it, is the most dangerous of the popular school sports.  But it's a matter of degree.  How do you decide whether to let your 8-year-old play baseball, where more deaths occur at that age than football, or football?  Do you simply look at numbers and determine which sport your child should play based upon risk of injury?  What if your child is particularly well suited physically for one sport over the other?  What if they show promise in a more dangerous sport than they do in a less dangerous sport? What do THEY want to play?

At the end of the day, humans are risk takers.  We are competitive, and we are prone to violence.  Most sports have some element of those human characteristics.  If you're going to let your child play sports at all, it makes sense to me to let them play what they want to play at some point and then support them in their favorites with the best means available to the family.  Keep Advil and Ace bandages on hand and expect to visit the emergency room now and then.
 
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 05:55:17 pm by bphi11ips »
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ricepig

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #152 on: May 10, 2017, 05:46:06 pm »

Dang, that's Whoiskid worthy, lol. Lots of information for all in there.
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bphi11ips

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #153 on: May 10, 2017, 05:58:45 pm »

Dang, that's Whoiskid worthy, lol. Lots of information for all in there.

Dang, I just got rid of a bunch of stuff trying to clean up that last post, but here's a link to the report I mentioned:

https://nccsir.unc.edu/files/2013/10/Annual-Football-2014-Fatalities-Final.pdf
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sevenof400

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #154 on: May 10, 2017, 07:12:05 pm »

....

You mentioned Jim Bob Harris in an earlier post - how is he doing these days? 
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bphi11ips

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #155 on: May 10, 2017, 07:18:56 pm »

You mentioned Jim Bob Harris in an earlier post - how is he doing these days? 

Very well. Great guy who loves being around the game when he can. Coaches dbacks for BHS freshman as a volunteer.
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tophawg19

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #156 on: May 10, 2017, 08:02:24 pm »

This is why we have the X-box generation . Kids who are over weight and in poor shape .Girls gymnastics is far more dangerous than football . They have 0 protection while flipping on a 4 inch Hardwood bar. I don't know anyone who ever had any brain damage from football . wonder if anyone else here does ? It's easy to hit your head playing basketball , especially during rebounds and lay ups . A 90 Mph Fast ball to the head is going to cause damage too
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ricepig

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #157 on: May 10, 2017, 08:10:05 pm »

This is why we have the X-box generation . Kids who are over weight and in poor shape .Girls gymnastics is far more dangerous than football . They have 0 protection while flipping on a 4 inch Hardwood bar. I don't know anyone who ever had any brain damage from football . wonder if anyone else here does ? It's easy to hit your head playing basketball , especially during rebounds and lay ups . A 90 Mph Fast ball to the head is going to cause damage too

Concussion Rates per Sport

The below numbers indicate the amount of sports concussions taking place per 100,000 athletic exposures. An athletic exposure is defined as one athlete participating in one organized high school athletic practice or competition, regardless of the amount of time played.

Football: 64 -76.8
Boys' ice hockey: 54
Girl's soccer: 33
Boys' lacrosse: 40 - 46.6
Girls' lacrosse: 31 - 35
Boys' soccer: 19 - 19.2
Boys' wrestling: 22 - 23.9
Girls' basketball: 18.6 - 21
Girls' softball: 16 - 16.3
Boys' basketball: 16 - 21.2
Girls' field hockey: 22 - 24.9
Cheerleading: 11.5 to 14
Girls' volleyball: 6 - 8.6
Boys' baseball: Between 4.6 - 5
Girls' gymnastics: 7
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sickboy

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #158 on: May 10, 2017, 08:12:06 pm »

This is why we have the X-box generation . Kids who are over weight and in poor shape .Girls gymnastics is far more dangerous than football . They have 0 protection while flipping on a 4 inch Hardwood bar. I don't know anyone who ever had any brain damage from football . wonder if anyone else here does ? It's easy to hit your head playing basketball , especially during rebounds and lay ups . A 90 Mph Fast ball to the head is going to cause damage too

This right here... this was my previous point about masculinity and sport wrapped into an emotional debate that clouds reason.
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Hoggish1

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #159 on: May 10, 2017, 08:31:53 pm »

No, not in the womb.  Play football in high school, not in 3rd grade...
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EastexHawg

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #160 on: May 10, 2017, 09:33:19 pm »

All of my friends and I played football for at least a few years if not all the way through high school.  One of my friends received a Presidential Scholarship...at the time the most prestigious available...to Texas A&M.  Another was valedictorian of his class at UT-Austin.  A third joined the Navy before quickly working his way into the NSA.

I made a perfect score in math on the ACT and turned down an appointment to West Point.  When I went back to school for a second degree at age 40 I graduated with a 4.0 gpa in Accounting and received the East Texas CPA association's outstanding student award.

The point is that almost everyone I grew up with played football.  We also played baseball, jumped ramps on bicycles... and, gasp, we didn't wear helmets... chopped down trees with axes to build two log cabins, and did all kinds of other "dangerous" things that boys do, or at least used to do.

None of us were or are brain damaged.

I thank God that my dad...who, by the way, was a boxer...didn't "shelter" me because he was afraid to let me be a boy and grow into a man
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bphi11ips

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #161 on: May 10, 2017, 09:55:57 pm »

Bp, please read


http://sportsnaut.com/2017/04/concussion-expert-youth-football-study-extent-child-brain-injuries-took-breath-away/

Just came out....

Other than the doctor's quote that research took his breath away, I don't see that article as having any substance.  The problem many of us are having with the research is based upon our own experience.  Where are all the demented former football players?  Maybe I'm one.  Lol. 
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jvanhorn

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #162 on: May 10, 2017, 09:58:13 pm »

Interesting poll.  Shows why [as all divorce lawyers know] over 50 per cent of the people that get married shouldn't and, now, with this poll, why over 50 per cent of the people that have children shouldn't.
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bennyl08

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #163 on: May 10, 2017, 10:10:32 pm »

Other than the doctor's quote that research took his breath away, I don't see that article as having any substance.  The problem many of us are having with the research is based upon our own experience.  Where are all the demented former football players?  Maybe I'm one.  Lol.

The problem is thinking you have to be demented to have CTE.

   In Stage I, headaches and issues related to attention and concentration were common;

   In Stage II, the symptoms expanded to include depression, explosivity and short-term memory impairment;

   In Stage III, reported symptoms included cognitive impairment and problems with executive functions, specifically planning, organization, multitasking and judgment.

   In Stage IV, there was evidence of full-blown dementia (i.e., memory and cognitive impairments severe enough to impact daily living).
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hamsam

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #164 on: May 10, 2017, 10:15:01 pm »

Answer to the question. Yep!
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FANONTHEHILL

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #165 on: May 10, 2017, 10:19:04 pm »

I have never forced my kids to participate in any activity.  But I've always told them that whatever activities they choose to participate in will get their best effort.  My kids have done baseball, soccer, basketball, mountain biking, band, and football.  I've seen severe injuries in all the sports listed.  Most importantly, they were, and are, fully aware that they are also expected to excel in the classroom.  So yes, I let them play football.

If you don't want your son to play football, I understand and respect your decision.  But if that's the case, one thing you may need to do is make some changes.  Do not glamorize the game.  Don't watch the game.  Don't talk about the game.   Stay away from things like Hogville.  Your interest can spark a fire in your kids. I hauled my sons to game after game when they were young. We watched game after game on TV. I allowed them to wear Razorback gear and they looked up to the players and attended fan events.  How could I then tell him not to participate in something that they were raised to admire?  A little boy that started out as #12 at 3 years old can become #61 15 years later.  I pray every day that he stays healthy, but he will be the first to tell you he would do anything for his 104 brothers on the team.  He loves the game.
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bphi11ips

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #166 on: May 10, 2017, 10:26:31 pm »

The problem is thinking you have to be demented to have CTE.

   In Stage I, headaches and issues related to attention and concentration were common;

   In Stage II, the symptoms expanded to include depression, explosivity and short-term memory impairment;

   In Stage III, reported symptoms included cognitive impairment and problems with executive functions, specifically planning, organization, multitasking and judgment.

   In Stage IV, there was evidence of full-blown dementia (i.e., memory and cognitive impairments severe enough to impact daily living).

No.  The problem is I'm 55, played 10 years of football, and know many men my age and older who did the same and have no signs of CTE.  In fact, we've somehow managed to be very successful adults in spite of having played football. 

But of course, there's always someone smarter than we are.
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BigE_23

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #167 on: May 10, 2017, 11:09:01 pm »

Good post.  I agree all of us should be both informed and exercise common sense when making decisions related to the welfare of our children.  You've probably seen the report above asserting that cheerleading is the number one sport causing concussions other than football.  Well, my daughter is a cheerleader.  She is just as devoted to her sport as my son. 

Football deaths have actually dropped substantially since the mid-70's, when a 1976 rule change made it illegal to make initial contact with the head and face while blocking and tackling.  The change was prompted by an American Football Coaches Association study called the Annual Football Injury Survey that has been done annually since 1931, when over 40 players were killed playing football, the most since Teddy Roosevelt outlawed college football in 1905.  Here's a link to a comprehensive report for the years 1931-2013:

http://www.mtv.com/news/2371458/high-school-football-players-dying-safe-statistics/

"I think cases are getting more national attention than they used to by conventional news outlets and there is also more grassroots exposure on social media to the emotional aspects of these cases ... parents posting on Facebook from the hospital, etc."

In summary, the debate in this thread is healthy in my opinion, both for those who would allow their children to play football and for those who won't.  My testimony has been personal.  My experiences have been almost entirely positive.  I have seen football positively influence the lives of many men.  But that is not to detract from the dozen or more high school families devastated every year by the death of a player.  That is not a denial that football does, in some instances, cause long-term neurological damage. 

Sports are dangerous to some extent.  Statistics about other sports are posted in this thread.  Football, any way you want to view it, is the most dangerous of the popular school sports.  But it's a matter of degree.  How do you decide whether to let your 8-year-old play baseball, where more deaths occur at that age than football, or football?  Do you simply look at numbers and determine which sport your child should play based upon risk of injury?  What if your child is particularly well suited physically for one sport over the other?  What if they show promise in a more dangerous sport than they do in a less dangerous sport? What do THEY want to play?

At the end of the day, humans are risk takers.  We are competitive, and we are prone to violence.  Most sports have some element of those human characteristics.  If you're going to let your child play sports at all, it makes sense to me to let them play what they want to play at some point and then support them in their favorites with the best means available to the family.  Keep Advil and Ace bandages on hand and expect to visit the emergency room now and then.
 

Lol...yessir!

As I hold my 5 month old baby boy in my arms, one thing is sure: it's very easy for me to say, "He will never ______." Right now, he's wearing a doc-band to correct the shape of his skull. So, in all honesty, I'm extra sensitive to head related injury. The truth is, I don't know how I'll how feel about all of this in 15 years when he's looking me in the eyes and asking me to do something. When that time comes, I pray every day that I'm able to make wise and well-informed decisions.

It's interesting - I grew up in a very legalistic and religious culture. My parents wouldn't allow me to go to the movies, wear shorts, or go to sporting events much less participate. My parents told me I would "never play sports..." However, it turns out that, as I got older, it was more difficult for them to tell me NO. Eventually they let me play, so long as I didn't have to wear shorts! ;D Thank God they eventually caved on that one as well!

Obviously, child safety and legalistic Pentecostalism are two very different things..,but what's certain is that people change. In the immortal words of the great philosopher, Justin Bieber, one should never say never.
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sickboy

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #168 on: May 10, 2017, 11:16:16 pm »

All of my friends and I played football for at least a few years if not all the way through high school.  One of my friends received a Presidential Scholarship...at the time the most prestigious available...to Texas A&M.  Another was valedictorian of his class at UT-Austin.  A third joined the Navy before quickly working his way into the NSA.

I made a perfect score in math on the ACT and turned down an appointment to West Point.  When I went back to school for a second degree at age 40 I graduated with a 4.0 gpa in Accounting and received the East Texas CPA association's outstanding student award.

The point is that almost everyone I grew up with played football.  We also played baseball, jumped ramps on bicycles... and, gasp, we didn't wear helmets... chopped down trees with axes to build two log cabins, and did all kinds of other "dangerous" things that boys do, or at least used to do.

None of us were or are brain damaged.

I thank God that my dad...who, by the way, was a boxer...didn't "shelter" me because he was afraid to let me be a boy and grow into a man

Kid across the street from me died jumping a ramp on his bike when we were in 7th grade. Cracked his head and never woke up. He would have probably been better off had he been wearing a helmet.

I know you're not saying kids shouldn't wear helmets, but being nostalgic for our bygone times and looking at ourselves, we who managed to make it through the bike ramps of our childhood unscathed, as proof that we've become too guarded as a society isn't they way to go.
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EastexHawg

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #169 on: May 10, 2017, 11:31:31 pm »

Kid across the street from me died jumping a ramp on his bike when we were in 7th grade. Cracked his head and never woke up. He would have probably been better off had he been wearing a helmet.

I know you're not saying kids shouldn't wear helmets, but being nostalgic for our bygone times and looking at ourselves, we who managed to make it through the bike ramps of our childhood unscathed, as proof that we've become too guarded as a society isn't they way to go.

A year after high school graduation a guy who played on my baseball team bent over to tie his work boot and keeled over dead from an aneurysm.  I don't think that indicates or even suggests that avoiding work is the smart way to go.

Another high school classmate was murdered and decapitated by Henry Lee Lucas when he and his buddy offered her beer.  Apparently alcohol causes homicide.

Every one of us will fall victim to something eventually.
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sickboy

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #170 on: May 11, 2017, 12:36:28 am »

A year after high school graduation a guy who played on my baseball team bent over to tie his work boot and keeled over dead from an aneurysm.  I don't think that indicates or even suggests that avoiding work is the smart way to go.

Another high school classmate was murdered and decapitated by Henry Lee Lucas when he and his buddy offered her beer.  Apparently alcohol causes homicide.

Every one of us will fall victim to something eventually.

Yikes. Now I'm googling Henry Lee Lucas.
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bphi11ips

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #171 on: May 11, 2017, 07:50:45 am »

Yikes. Now I'm googling Henry Lee Lucas.

Transgender?
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hogsanity

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #172 on: May 11, 2017, 08:30:33 am »

All the outlandish examples, people being killed by a serial killer, dying from an aneurysm, jumping a ramp on a bike wrecking and dying of a head injury still do not address the point that football results in more head trauma, and far more serious head injuries, than any other sport your child could participate in. This discussion is not about all the things that can happen in life, life ends for everyone at some point, some way. No one is saying if you play football you WILL get CTE, or WILL have concussions. The numbers do not lie though, you are much more likely to have head trauma playing football than any other sport. And thats what we are talking about, playing a sport. People want to extrapolate not playing football with not playing sports at all because they like football, they played football, and admit it or not they use football as a measure of toughness.

No one is denying there is a certain amount of risk in everything, but some are denying the risk of neurological injury is higher in tackle football than other sports. Denying that in football would be like trying to deny their are more guys needing Tommy John surgery in baseball than any other sport, the numbers make that a indefensible position. However, if my kids blows out his elbow, it is not as debilitating as a severe head or neck injury, and that is the difference in what many are trying to use as comparisons. A knee or elbow injury is not the same as a head or neck injury.
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EastexHawg

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #173 on: May 11, 2017, 09:10:51 am »

All the outlandish examples, people being killed by a serial killer, dying from an aneurysm, jumping a ramp on a bike wrecking and dying of a head injury still do not address the point that football results in more head trauma, and far more serious head injuries, than any other sport your child could participate in. This discussion is not about all the things that can happen in life, life ends for everyone at some point, some way. No one is saying if you play football you WILL get CTE, or WILL have concussions. The numbers do not lie though, you are much more likely to have head trauma playing football than any other sport. And thats what we are talking about, playing a sport. People want to extrapolate not playing football with not playing sports at all because they like football, they played football, and admit it or not they use football as a measure of toughness.

No one is denying there is a certain amount of risk in everything, but some are denying the risk of neurological injury is higher in tackle football than other sports. Denying that in football would be like trying to deny their are more guys needing Tommy John surgery in baseball than any other sport, the numbers make that a indefensible position. However, if my kids blows out his elbow, it is not as debilitating as a severe head or neck injury, and that is the difference in what many are trying to use as comparisons. A knee or elbow injury is not the same as a head or neck injury.

Of course there is risk involved, but isn't the question how much risk?  Probably only a few want to do something that is extremely high risk (jumping the fountain at Caesar's Palace on a motorcycle), but what if the risk is negligible, as it appears to be from football?

Statistics show us that traveling by plane is safer than driving a car, yet almost all of us drive every day.  Apparently that is a risk we are willing to take.  How many thousands of men have played SEC football?  And yet...most of us can only name one, Chucky Mullins of Ole Miss 26 years ago, who suffered a catastrophic injury on the football field.  How many people associated with current SEC schools can we name who were catastrophically injured or killed in car wrecks?  Bud Campbell, Paul Eells, Steve Little, and Brandon Burlworth just from Arkansas...
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DeltaBoy

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #174 on: May 11, 2017, 09:22:26 am »

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hogsanity

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #175 on: May 11, 2017, 09:34:18 am »

Of course there is risk involved, but isn't the question how much risk?  Probably only a few want to do something that is extremely high risk (jumping the fountain at Caesar's Palace on a motorcycle), but what if the risk is negligible, as it appears to be from football?

Statistics show us that traveling by plane is safer than driving a car, yet almost all of us drive every day.  Apparently that is a risk we are willing to take.  How many thousands of men have played SEC football?  And yet...most of us can only name one, Chucky Mullins of Ole Miss 26 years ago, who suffered a catastrophic injury on the football field.  How many people associated with current SEC schools can we name who were catastrophically injured or killed in car wrecks?  Bud Campbell, Paul Eells, Steve Little, and Brandon Burlworth just from Arkansas...

You can deflect away from the issue, LONG TERM EFFECTS FROM REPEATED HEAD TRAUMA, as well as the risk of short term head trauma as well, but the fact remains the risk of head injury of some sort, either short term or long term, is much greater in those playing football than not. Then throw in the knee injuries, shoulders, etc, and the risk of injury overall is greater in tackle football than any other sport. I mean, it is a sport built on smashing into other humans. How many season ending injuries happen in football compared to basketball or baseball?  How many 20 yr old basketball or baseball players have to retire as Jr's to be because of recurring neck injuries or cumulative concussions?

And I am a guy who, after all that I said, did let my older son play, and would let my younger play if he really wanted. Not because I think it would make them a better person, or all the the other rah rah crap some have used to justify it, but because it is not a hill worht dying on for me to tell them no to that, when there are going to be bigger things I need to teach them to say no to, or I have to tell them no myself.

But, I respect any parent who, for the risks involved, do tell their kid he cant play football. I do not think it will make that kid less of a person, or physically and mentally weak. On the contrary, it teaches them you do not always get what you want. Coping with being told no is missing among todays kids.
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pigture perfect

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #176 on: May 11, 2017, 09:36:48 am »

Football offers the unique opportunity for our youth to learn teamwork. Because of the number of people it takes to make the team and the need for and the ability of substitutions. It teaches toughness in physical adversity. It also teaches someone how to care care of their bodies, which would include knowing when to call it quits.

I say that even after being told as A 52 year old, that I'm going to need a shoulder replacement because of an injury sustained playing high school football. Yes, I let my son play football. I don't, and he didn't regret it.
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twistitup

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #177 on: May 11, 2017, 09:41:37 am »

Head injuries in football are not freak accidents, they are not rare events and they shouldn't be treated as such.
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hogsanity

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #178 on: May 11, 2017, 09:47:56 am »

Football offers the unique opportunity for our youth to learn teamwork. Because of the number of people it takes to make the team and the need for and the ability of substitutions. It teaches toughness in physical adversity. It also teaches someone how to care care of their bodies, which would include knowing when to call it quits.



Back to this argument again. Football is not the only way people can learn these things.
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311Hog

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #179 on: May 11, 2017, 10:11:04 am »

All of my friends and I played football for at least a few years if not all the way through high school.  One of my friends received a Presidential Scholarship...at the time the most prestigious available...to Texas A&M.  Another was valedictorian of his class at UT-Austin.  A third joined the Navy before quickly working his way into the NSA.

I made a perfect score in math on the ACT and turned down an appointment to West Point.  When I went back to school for a second degree at age 40 I graduated with a 4.0 gpa in Accounting and received the East Texas CPA association's outstanding student award.

The point is that almost everyone I grew up with played football.  We also played baseball, jumped ramps on bicycles... and, gasp, we didn't wear helmets... chopped down trees with axes to build two log cabins, and did all kinds of other "dangerous" things that boys do, or at least used to do.

None of us were or are brain damaged.

I thank God that my dad...who, by the way, was a boxer...didn't "shelter" me because he was afraid to let me be a boy and grow into a man

You are obviously very smart and a fellow accountant /hat tip I also intended  to go to West Point (dad was army recruiter for 20 years i passed the ASVAB when i was in 6th grade lol i use to take the test for fun it was my baby sitter, believe me dad didnt shelter me), do you really want to argue that football, CTE, Head trauma is not something to people should be very concerned about?

Believe me i did all manner of reckless stuff in my youth, and luckily i am sitting here to type about it, but as i watch my children grow up (age 18 to 3 months), i can't help but try and incorporate what i have learned over the years, and what HAS been learned by others.  When my first was born CTE didn't even exist, but i would bet money it was always there just no one wanted to know about it.

The human condition both simultaneously pushing for change, while pulling as hard or harder to keep old things intact despite evidence that change should be allowed to take place. 
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McKdaddy

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #180 on: May 11, 2017, 10:59:49 am »

Back to this argument again. Football is not the only way people can learn these things.

Agreed, not the only way.  But I've been impressed how much better my son has latched onto teamwork via football than the other 3 sports he plays.  The other 3 require teamwork, no doubt, but something about football and the teamwork aspect has taken his view of working with & for the team to a new level.
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hogsanity

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #181 on: May 11, 2017, 11:23:42 am »

Agreed, not the only way.  But I've been impressed how much better my son has latched onto teamwork via football than the other 3 sports he plays.  The other 3 require teamwork, no doubt, but something about football and the teamwork aspect has taken his view of working with & for the team to a new level.

Great. I have no doubt it does foster team work. My issue, and it was predictable from the start based on prior threads on similar topics, is the attitude by some ( not you ) that football is the be all end all of making kids tough.
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311Hog

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #182 on: May 11, 2017, 11:31:42 am »

Great. I have no doubt it does foster team work. My issue, and it was predictable from the start based on prior threads on similar topics, is the attitude by some ( not you ) that football is the be all end all of making kids tough.

aaaand the "safety'ing" up of Football is the direct reason why "kids today" are weaker than they were back in the day.
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McKdaddy

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #183 on: May 11, 2017, 11:35:13 am »

Great. I have no doubt it does foster team work. My issue, and it was predictable from the start based on prior threads on similar topics, is the attitude by some ( not you ) that football is the be all end all of making kids tough.

Understood.
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oldbear

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #184 on: May 11, 2017, 12:10:40 pm »

My history is that I played football from 4th grade thru four years of college. I am now 52 and have no major physical issues as a result of football despite having been a four year Letterman in college, so I was on the field all four years. Really not even minor injuries that are football related. I have a bad back but that comes from a weight room mishap that good form would have avoided.

My son does play football and I volunteer with the local high school team and have for nearly 20 years. There is risk involved but I believe it is also very educational. My full time job gives me the opportunity to work with kids. Mostly those who are at great risk. I believe football is unique in what it teaches in that it is truly the only sport in which you can't be great by yourself. Michael Jordan would have been Michael Jordan without Scottie, and Babe Ruth could have hit a bazillion home runs without the Yankees. Emmitt Smith would have never gained a yard without linemen.

Football is special. It also allows a much larger number of people to be part of the team. My son will play as long as HE wants. I tell him all the time to play if he enjoys and don't if he doesn't. He knows you can get hurt because we talk about it. He is fully capable of making some decisions and needs to learn to make them. I don't plan on being around forever and he can decide to engage in legal and positive activities and I will support him and love him. If he quits I still will. If he gets hurt, I will still support him and love him. I hope he learns as much from the sport as I did and as much as my daughter learned from softball.

Today I supervise a fair number of people and I tell them all the time that my concepts of leadership and teamwork came from football. It is effective and, I believe, positively infectious. I love the sport and always will. I love that they try to make it safer, but recognize the risk. If you feel differently, that is fine. It doesn't make either of us better than the other.
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DeltaBoy

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #185 on: May 11, 2017, 01:01:14 pm »

Head injuries in football are not freak accidents, they are not rare events and they shouldn't be treated as such.

With all the improvements in Helmets, I am puzzled why this seems to be a growing issue.
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hogsanity

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #186 on: May 11, 2017, 01:35:00 pm »

With all the improvements in Helmets, I am puzzled why this seems to be a growing issue.

the head injuries are mainly from the brain slamming into the skull on jarring hits, and heads hitting the ground. The helmets are very good at protecting the face and the skull, but they do nothing to keep the brain from sloshing around inside the head.
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twistitup

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #187 on: May 11, 2017, 01:56:58 pm »

the head injuries are mainly from the brain slamming into the skull on jarring hits, and heads hitting the ground. The helmets are very good at protecting the face and the skull, but they do nothing to keep the brain from sloshing around inside the head.

Very true...I had a doctor explain the inside of the forehead is rough and damages to the frontal lobe occur fairly easily when taking blows to the head ....football, soccer, boxing, car accidents etc....they all have risks involved but football is very repetitive in nature. A MLB may take 50-60 head blows per game.
 
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Peter Porker

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #188 on: May 11, 2017, 02:11:30 pm »

No.  The problem is I'm 55, played 10 years of football, and know many men my age and older who did the same and have no signs of CTE.  In fact, we've somehow managed to be very successful adults in spite of having played football. 

But of course, there's always someone smarter than we are.

Y'all were 150 lbs and ran 5.5 40s. We are talking bigger, stronger, faster and the technology hasn't kept up. The collisions now are much more violent.
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ricepig

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #189 on: May 11, 2017, 02:14:43 pm »

Y'all were 150 lbs and ran 5.5 40s. We are talking bigger, stronger, faster and the technology hasn't kept up. The collisions now are much more violent.

Lol, I'm a little older than Mr.Phillips and we didn't have anyone outside a monster man who weighed under 175lbs. Now, we probably had plenty of 5.5's....
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bphi11ips

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #190 on: May 11, 2017, 02:34:04 pm »

People want to extrapolate not playing football with not playing sports at all because they like football, they played football, and admit it or not they use football as a measure of toughness.

You should speak for yourself.  I don't see anyone here claiming they want their boys to play football to toughen them up or to see how tough they are.  There are those who see benefits to be derived from the game based upon their own experience, and that is what I see from just about everyone in favor of allowing their sons to play football, if they choose to do so.

I don't see anyone claiming football is the only way to learn teamwork and discipline.  pigture perfect used the word "unique", not "only".  Football does offer unique opportunities.  On a spectrum, football is arguably the most team oriented major youth sport because of the nature of assignments on every play on both sides of the ball.  Baseball is probably the least.  Baseball is first a mano-a-mano battle between pitcher and hitter.  When a ball is put in play, it becomes largely an individual effort by a fielder before it may involve several players depending upon the situation.  And don't come back with every player has to know what to do on every pitch, who to back up, where to cut the ball off, when to cut it off, etc.  I played baseball as long as I played football.  I coached many teams before I had kids of my own. I love the game, but it doesn't require the teamwork football requires.  It does require teamwork.  It sometimes requires personal sacrifice for the good of the team.  Baseball teaches discipline and skills to deal with adversity, but you could give some credit to those of us who played football for many years and understand the bond developed between teammates.  As someone who played football, baseball and basketball for many years, in my opinion, there is no sport like football when it comes to teamwork and sacrifice. 

"Toughness" can be defined many ways.  Are we talking about physical or mental toughness?  As I said above, don't push your kid to play football because you think it will make him physically "tough".  Don't let him play if you think he doesn't already have a physically "tough" mindset.  He'll wind up being the bug rather than the windshield, which increases the chances for injury (you've been a ref; how many times have you seen a kid take a helmet to helmet hit when he ducked his head out of fear?;  how many times have you seen a kid hurt when he flinched before contact?  E=mc squared).  Most of all, if your kid is one who doesn't want to play because of the physical nature of the game, it will damage his confidence if you force him to play.  I saw this with one father I coached with.  He told me honestly that he wanted his son to play because he was timid.  His older son was a star on the high school team.  Guess what?  His son
stayed timid.  Fortunately, the dad accepted it, and that is the only year his younger son played.  I see the dad now and then, and his son is doing well and is a very good student. 

For mental "toughness", nothing beats golf, in my opinion.  Lee Trevino once said that standing over a million dollar putt in a professional event isn't pressure.  Standing over a $500 putt with $20 in your pocket is pressure.  Golf is a game where you have to forget the last shot or the last hole multiple times during every round.  It's a game that teaches you composure in the face of adversity.  You can tell a lot about people by the way they conduct themselves on the golf course.  My son started hitting balls with me at about 3.  He's never been in trouble for hitting a bad shot, but he knows he'll get a lecture if he wears his emotions on his shirt sleeve.  He has learned how to work his way around the course, when to play aggressively and when to hit a shot to the middle of the green, and when to take a bogie rather than try to pull off a miracle from a bad lie.  Those are lessons that transfer to real life.  Most of all, he knows how to be a good sport and a gentleman on the course, and that will serve him well when football and everything else is over. 

You sometimes seem to feel the need to take a swipe at those who disagree with you.  Frankly, I have a hard time understanding how you can be so cavalier about baseball.  How old were your boys when they started playing baseball?  These days, unless you're on the right travel team by 8 or so, it's pretty much over. You know this.  The only exceptions are boys who hit a growth spurt and find a team that needs a pitcher.

I mentioned this above, but here's a link to a study confirming that baseball is the leading cause of death among sports for kids 5-14:

http://www.livestrong.com/article/353714-baseball-injuries-statistics-for-practice-and-games/

CTE is bad.  Death is irreversible.  You said yourself baseball is the leading cause of Tommy John surgery.  I pitched for 10 years and sometimes can't swing a golf club because my right elbow hurts so bad.  I caught for a few years.  No collision in football ever hurt worse than having a runner slam into me after coming full blast down the third baseline while I'm standing still.  A catcher is always the bug.  E=mc squared.  I still have scars on my hips from sliding on the hard surfaces of ball fields all over Arkansas.  I've run into fences and walls playing baseball and cut myself bad enough to need stitches and gotten up seeing stars.  I once hit a batter in the helmet and cracked it down the middle.  I broke more fingers and hands playing baseball than in any other sport.  Don't tell me baseball isn't without risks.  Is it as risky as football for long term brain injuries?  No.  Is it risky?  Yes.  It's just different risks that you choose to accept when you allow your sons to play baseball.  You think the rewards outweigh the risks.  You have a right to your opinion.  I share it where baseball and other team sports are concerned.  And that includes football.         

This thread has turned into primarily a discussion about head injuries.  Does football create the most risk of head injuries of any team sport?  The statistics seem to show it does.  Common sense would seem to indicate it does.  But that isn't new.  Awareness of the risk isn't new.  Is society full of adult men mentally disabled by football?  If so, I haven't seen it.  What I have seen are generations of men and boys shaped in part in positive ways by football.  Same with baseball, basketball, hockey, track, tennis, and golf. Concussions in football may not be freak accidents, but long-term adverse mental affects from football don't appear to be common, either. 

This thread, as much as any thing else, seems to me to be an indictment of football itself.  I wonder why some regular posters here who otherwise have always seemed to be fans of the Razorbacks football team bother to read and post on Hogville at all.     
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bennyl08

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #191 on: May 11, 2017, 03:13:24 pm »

Sorry, but E=mc^2 is hilarious in that post.
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Youngsta71701

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #192 on: May 11, 2017, 03:13:55 pm »

Flag until he's in the 7th grade then I'll let him play tackle football for the school. That might get rid of some of the wear and tear.
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jm

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #193 on: May 11, 2017, 03:16:01 pm »

We raised 4 boys and absolutely let them play if it was their desire. We let them play football, basketball, soccer, track, golf, and any other sport thay wanted to try; fortunately none wanted to take up bull riding. As parents, we survived 2 tours of duty in Afghanistan and 2 tours in Iraq with the 82nd, a couple of trips to the county jail, several car wrecks, and I have no idea how many black eyes or busted lips.  Sure, football can be dangerous, but no more so than some of their other activities and you know where they are and what they are doing most of the time.
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bphi11ips

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #194 on: May 11, 2017, 03:18:15 pm »

Y'all were 150 lbs and ran 5.5 40s. We are talking bigger, stronger, faster and the technology hasn't kept up. The collisions now are much more violent.

Lol.  See the stats I posted earlier in the report on football injuries from 1931-2013.  Annual football deaths were double and triple the number they are now until 1976, when leading with the head was outlawed.  Do you think concussions just became an issue?

Speaking for myself, I played on Hall's state championship team in 1978.  Gary Woods and George Hall weren't 150.  They both went to Arkansas, although I think Gary transferred to Tulsa.  He was the best running back in the state.  George was a nose guard.  All-SWC I think.  I was 6'3' and 190 and a half step slower than Gary.   

Players are bigger, stronger and faster now than ever, but helmets are much better than when I played.  No helmet is concussion proof, because as many have correctly pointed out, concussions occur when the brain collides with the inside of the skull.  It's like a car accident.  When a car doing 60 comes to an immediate stop, the passengers are still doing 60 until they are restrained or hit something. 

Since my son has been playing high school football, every player is tested, and a baseline is set.  Here's a link to how it works:

http://www.concussiontreatment.com/baseline-testing.html

Any time the team trainer even thinks a player may have a concussion, that player is finished for practice or the game until he is tested against his baseline test.  He is not eligible to play again until he has been through a very conservative protocol.  Records of every concussion are kept, of course.  Certain helmets now come equipped with monitors that indicate when a blow to the helmet is serious enough to cause a concussion.  I don't believe they are significantly more expensive than the standard top-of-the-line helmet.  I believe our head coach recently said they may be $200 more. 

In any event, the game and equipment are evolving to minimize to the extent possible changes in the size and speed of the athletes.  The numbers reflect that injuries in 2017 are not as severe as they were before 1976.
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bphi11ips

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #195 on: May 11, 2017, 03:38:15 pm »

Sorry, but E=mc^2 is hilarious in that post.

Why are you sorry, because you think I misapplied Einstein's theory of relativity?  I suppose you'd like to explain it to me.

Here's the deal - we're not talking about the speed of light, but we are talking about mass times velocity.  I've used the theory of relativity many times to illustrate to players that mass times velocity equals energy.  It's the reason you want to be the train and not the car, the hammer and not the nail, the windshield and not the bug, the runner and not the catcher.  The best way to avoid an injury is to hit the opposing player harder than he hits you.  If you don't understand that, you've probably never played football. 
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twistitup

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #196 on: May 11, 2017, 04:07:31 pm »

Nm
« Last Edit: May 11, 2017, 04:22:46 pm by twistitup »
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Hoggish1

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #197 on: May 11, 2017, 04:11:56 pm »

Flag until he's in the 7th grade then I'll let him play tackle football for the school. That might get rid of some of the wear and tear.

Bingo.  but flag football till 10th grade would be the better scenario...
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hawgfan4life

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #198 on: May 11, 2017, 04:21:33 pm »

More teenagers are seriously injured in cars than in football by large proportions.  Should all children be kept out of cars?  Life is full of risks.  I would check to ensure proper tackling techniques are taught by coache and I would ensure that modern equipment is being used.  I would check to see what protocols the school has in place for possible head injuries.  Lastly, I would pray for God's hand of protection.  If all are in place, I would greatly prefer my son play football and gain the life lessons it provides over almost any other sport and what no classroom will offer.  I would rather have my son involved in an organized sport for that time rather than riding around in a vehicle with other teens.  Equipment and practice drills today make data from ten years ago irrelevant.  There is simply no comparison.  Risks still exist, but they exist in everything in life.
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311Hog

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Re: Would you let your kid play football?
« Reply #199 on: May 11, 2017, 04:24:03 pm »

yep God will stop your brain from banging into the inside of your skull (because nothing else will).  And if he doesn't well to bad so sad amirite
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