Coach change talk reveals "small thinking" in Hog nation

[oldbooniehog]

I have noticed something amongst the "coaching change" talk about the basketball team on this board.

I think it reveals a large pattern of "small thinking" inside the Hog Nation.

I keep hearing the names of washed-up former coaches who now work as TV commentators, or coaches who aren't coaching anymore because of alcohol problems....or names of "up and comers" at mid-majors.

Folks, this is not how a basketball program than went to three Final Fours, Two title games, and won a national championship in the last decade should do business.

Look to Kentucky and North Carolina for how you should be thinking.

When Kentucky needed a new coach after Rick Pitinio jumped to the NBA, did they go find Jim Bob at Whozit State?

No. They claimed the established coach of another SEC program, even on in their own division.

When North Carolina got tired of losing with their former-player turned coach, did they go get some former coach working in TV?

No, they raided Kansas for their head coach.

This is how actualy "big time" basketball programs do it.

When it comes time to get serious about winning  again, they lay out the cash and get the real deal.

It's time for Arkansas to live up to its legacy of the 1990s and go get somebody who is the real deal.

oldbooniehog

[WILL CLINTON]

I agree 110%.  Tell me who you are thinking of, if anyone...

[pfrg999]

Mark Turgeon - Wichita State
Bill Self - Kansas (Pipe Dream)
Bruce Webber - Illinois

No Majerius.... No Pitino...... No No No NO Calipari.... No Anderson....

[Biggus Piggus]

Excellent comments.  Going for Heath showed how poorly the administration understood how the program went from nothing to perennial contender.  It was great coaching, and somebody thought they could hire a young recruiter and be OK.

[clew]

Rick Barnes here at Texas.  He's a good coach but this team doesn't get very much fan support, they play in a crappy arena, and I think he'd be happier in the SEC (more tradition).  There was talk of him leaving at some point last year for an ACC position (because he's from Virginia???).

[WILL CLINTON]

Mark Turgeon - Wichita State
Bill Self - Kansas (Pipe Dream)
Bruce Webber - Illinois

No Majerius.... No Pitino...... No No No NO Calipari.... No Anderson....

No to Calipari, you are right on there.  I can't stand that arrogant SOB...Majerus is so-so because of his health problems, but he did field some good teams at Utah.  Pitino I like, but he was coach at KY, so f-him...I still think Mike Anderson will be the coach at a big time university, I just don;t know if we need to wait till then, or try to get him early.  I still think Anderson would be a better hire than heath, because Mike has been at UAB 3 yrs, and proven more in the big dance than Heath did at Kent in one season. 

[Inigo Montoya]

Nail on the head oldbooniehog.

[twistitup]

john beilein- west virginia- GREAT COACH

[BigHog396]

Mark Turgeon - Wichita State
Bill Self - Kansas (Pipe Dream)
Bruce Webber - Illinois

No Majerius.... No Pitino...... No No No NO Calipari.... No Anderson....

No to Calipari, you are right on there.  I can't stand that arrogant SOB...Majerus is so-so because of his health problems, but he did field some good teams at Utah.  Pitino I like, but he was coach at KY, so f-him...I still think Mike Anderson will be the coach at a big time university, I just don;t know if we need to wait till then, or try to get him early.  I still think Anderson would be a better hire than heath, because Mike has been at UAB 3 yrs, and proven more in the big dance than Heath did at Kent in one season. 

I would love to see Anderson here, just don't think there is any chance of that happening as long as JFB is around.  Anderson's teams play the style that we as Hog fans grew to love, but I just don't see it happening with the Nolan connection.  Also, I don't know if he would take the job if it was offered to him.  We pretty well threw him out on his butt, and he may just tell the administration where they can shove it if we were to go after him.

[mchogfan]

Rick Barnes here at Texas.  He's a good coach but this team doesn't get very much fan support, they play in a crappy arena, and I think he'd be happier in the SEC (more tradition).  There was talk of him leaving at some point last year for an ACC position (because he's from Virginia???).

Thank goodness somebody has a clue.

No sense in me typing it twice:  http://www.hogville.net/yabbse/index.php/topic,45981.msg504457.html#msg504457

[brooks74]

I agree, but I think we missed our chance with Self.  I can see him at Kansas for the long haul.  Weber would be a great hire, if we can get him from Illinois.  You have to remember that Williams had a history with UNC, and most coaches would jump at the chance for coaching at Kentucky.  I think we had a chance to grab a coach like that after Nolan left, but I think our program has lost a lot of it's luster as a big time program now.

[KOAHogFan]

We all know Anderson would be good here, but it will not happen and not because of Broyles but because of Nolan.  He is the reason Mike didn't get a fair shot at being the head coach 4 years ago.

[oldbooniehog]

To be honest, I don't have any one in particular in mind.

But here's what I think the profile should be.


Established and successful at the NCAA Division I level.

That's pretty much it.

I think what frustrates me so much is that Arkansas is so used to having to nickel-and-dime it in football, that they don't realize what they used to have here in basketball.

Arkansas was, at one point during the 1990s, the winningest NCAA Division I program of that entire decade.

Arkansas went to three Final Fours. Arkansas was a perennial, guaranteed top 10.

Arkansas played in back-to-back title games. At one point, Arkansas had won 11 NCAA tournament games in a row.

This "nickel-and-dime" philosophy of getting somebody else's leftovers or rejects, or getting somebody who is unproven is a failure on a whole lot of levels.

But to be honest, I don't have any specific names in mind.

But I think Arkansas should be able to go out and get just about any coach it would want to, with a few exceptions.

Basically, the Arkansas basketball coaching job should be like the Notre Dame football coaching job, or the Florida State football coaching job.

In basketball, Arkansas should basically be able to name its coach and go get its coach.

Failure to take advantage of the basketball tradition at Arkansas seems very, very strange to me.

oldbooniehog

[HighOnHogs]

Stan heath was a risk.  He could have turned out to be great.  But it was a risk and the administration had some serious stuff going on with Nolan that kept them on their toes.  Sadly the risk hasn't proved successful.  Too bad for the fans who loved their hog bball.

[D-macs cuz]

I agree, if we have one of the nations top sport facilities in the country, we have championship tradition, and a big basketball following, it's time to pony up and go after a big time coach.  This mediocraty and excuses is old and tiresome.  I want to go after someone like Barnes, and no to Calipari...say what you want about the guy but if he was wanting to come here you would tell him know?  Have you seen what he is doing with Memphis?  They would mop the floor with us and they have freshman and sophmores.

[pig-a-riffic]

Heath was hired for one reason, and one reason only.  Ill leave it at that.

As for the NC and Ky examples, they are flawed to a point.  NC went out and got another former NC guy to come home.  Yes, he was established as a winner, but still, the only way NC gets him is he has ties to them, otherwise he never leaves KS for NC.

Ky got Tubby, out of their own division true, but they are KY.  It is a job that pretty much if they call you go.

My question is, does AR have that kind of pull?  Do big time coaches that have out clasues that let them leave for certain schools, have AR listed as one of those choices?  Can Ar call up Pitino and pay him enough to get him to leave Louisville and come here?  Is th thinking small, or are these the type guys we will have to pursue?  

[WILL CLINTON]

I agree, if we have one of the nations top sport facilities in the country, we have championship tradition, and a big basketball following, it's time to pony up and go after a big time coach.  This mediocraty and excuses is old and tiresome.  I want to go after someone like Barnes, and no to Calipari...say what you want about the guy but if he was wanting to come here you would tell him know?  Have you seen what he is doing with Memphis?  They would mop the floor with us and they have freshman and sophmores.

Not saying he isn't a great coach, but I just don't like him.  He is going to be hurting next year when all these players turn pro...(Well, not all, but you know what I'm saying)

[SultanofSwine]

boonie, the growing problem now is time removed from national contention. We are rapidly moving to a position of not having the drawing power that we once had for top notch coaches.

Somebody go get Majerus, PLEASE!!!

[pfrg999]

boonie, the growing problem now is time removed from national contention. We are rapidly moving to a position of not having the drawing power that we once had for top notch coaches.

Somebody go get Majerus, PLEASE!!!

No Please God Not Rick "I look like I just ate one of my Players" Majerus.....

[mbgrulz]

i am a big fan of majerus. he knows more about basketball than most of us can imagine. he can spot a good player a mile away, and he doesnt care to say exactly what he thinks. i know that his health is a concern however.

i love to watch coach beiline at west VA. his teams play with heart. they are probably a bunch of guys who were great players at smaller high schools and didnt get recruited very hard. they run an offense that would make our stagnant lockjaw look bad...well it already looks bad. but put beiline with some bluechip athletes, and i think his european style would work wonders.

[oldbooniehog]

Does Arkansas have that kind of pull?

Of course Arkansas has that kind of pull.

Any school, and I do mean ANY school has that kind of pull.

All it takes is cash.

You lay out the right amount of cash, and you'll get the guy you are looking for.

But that has been counter to the strategy on the hill lately.

The consistent strategy up there has been to "nickle and dime" a coach....to go get some "no-name" who has promise.

If you lay out the long green, you'll get your man.

The long green is there.  It can be done.

oldbooniehog

[WILL CLINTON]

i am a big fan of majerus. he knows more about basketball than most of us can imagine. he can spot a good player a mile away, and he doesnt care to say exactly what he thinks. i know that his health is a concern however.

i love to watch coach beiline at west VA. his teams play with heart. they are probably a bunch of guys who were great players at smaller high schools and didnt get recruited very hard. they run an offense that would make our stagnant lockjaw look bad...well it already looks bad. but put beiline with some bluechip athletes, and i think his european style would work wonders.

Yesterday during the halftime show, they were talking about the special offense and defensive system he runs.  Can anyone elaborate on what, exactly, it is??  And yes, I saw the reference to european style, but what does that mean??

[pig-a-riffic]

Does Arkansas have that kind of pull?

Of course Arkansas has that kind of pull.

Any school, and I do mean ANY school has that kind of pull.

All it takes is cash.

You lay out the right amount of cash, and you'll get the guy you are looking for.

But that has been counter to the strategy on the hill lately.

The consistent strategy up there has been to "nickle and dime" a coach....to go get some "no-name" who has promise.

If you lay out the long green, you'll get your man.

The long green is there.  It can be done.

oldbooniehog

ANY SCHOOL?  So, Qunnipiac could just lay out X$$$$'s and get Bill Self, or Coach K or Rick P?  

[Hogs4Ever]

I agree, no more questionables.  We should have learned our lesson with Heath about going down that road.  I want a proven Head Coach that can get the job done in major conferences.

[twistitup]

john beilein- west virginia- GREAT COACH

[mikeirwin]

I don't think Heath is going anywhere unless HE decides to.
I just don't see them firing him.

[Kevin]

that is big, mike.  i cannot beleive this is what hog bball has come too.

[Boner]

You can't fire the black basketball coach after two straight winning seasons, when you didn't fire the white football coach after two straight losing seasons.

Not with the Nolan deal still going on.

[twistitup]

true- I dont think it would be a good idea to fire him, but we should make him an assistant, he is real 'nice' guy .. ha ha

[mchogfan]

You can't fire the black basketball coach after two straight winning seasons, when you didn't fire the white football coach after two straight losing seasons.

Not with the Nolan deal still going on.

This is probably the grim reality of the situation.  But, I'm not an attorney, and I don't know what kind of new evidence can be entered in the appeal hearing.

[Just-Go-Hogs]

Rick Barnes here at Texas.  He's a good coach but this team doesn't get very much fan support, they play in a crappy arena, and I think he'd be happier in the SEC (more tradition).  There was talk of him leaving at some point last year for an ACC position (because he's from Virginia???).

Frankly, just because he is the coach at UT (spit) disqualifies him as far as I'm concerned.  I don't care if he's the greatest coach in the world, from my perspective, the Razorbacks don't hire Texas (spit) Coaches.

[mchogfan]

Rick Barnes here at Texas.  He's a good coach but this team doesn't get very much fan support, they play in a crappy arena, and I think he'd be happier in the SEC (more tradition).  There was talk of him leaving at some point last year for an ACC position (because he's from Virginia???).

Frankly, just because he is the coach at UT (spit) disqualifies him as far as I'm concerned.  I don't care if he's the greatest coach in the world, from my perspective, the Razorbacks don't hire Texas (spit) Coaches.

Are you serious...it's not like the guy is deeply entrenched there and we've had a big rivalry with him.  He hasn't done anything disrespectful to Arkansas.  You need to read the posts a little better...he WANTS OUT...he's not crazy about being a Longhorn himself.

It would be different if he was a UT reject, i.e. fired or ran out of town.

View it this way.  Texas would be considered a stepping stone to Fayetteville.

[hawkeyefan17]

Funny how everyone is talking about the tradition Arkansas has in basketball but everyone thinks Arkansas is a football school...at least when the subject of "football or basketball school" comes up on here.

Arkansas is a basketball school. Everyone is waiting for Arkansas to come back to prominence. Arkansas had a ton of options after the thing with Nolan happened. Everyone says "well, they had to hire Heath after the Nolan thing" No they didn't. No one would have begruged Arkansas for hiring a name coach the national perception would have been...Arkansas is a big time program and they want to keep winning. Arkansas took the easy way out and hired Heath.

Arkansas basketball should be talked about along with Duke, North Carolina, Kentucky, Michigan State every year. It was at one time but those days are becoming farther and farther away.

When I was a kid growing up in Iowa, I hated Arkansas...I loved seeing them get beat, the same way I like to see Duke get beat now. I moved to Southwest Missouri in 1994 and I couldn't stand to see Arkansas killing everyone. All of my friends were Hog fans and I hated it.

My opinions of Arkansas have changed since I moved here but it is beyond me why this basketball program fell off. That's why the turning down of the NIT bid last year bugged me so much..I thought "why is a program like Arkansas turning down a postseason?"

It just seems to be that the Athletic Department doesn't get it.

This program will return to prominence once a again because it's Arkansas basketball and Arkansas basketball still carries a lot of weight.

[oldbooniehog]

To answer an earlier question, yes.

If Quinnipiac put $2 million on the table for a coach salary, they could get just about anyone they wanted to get.

Now, imagine if Quinnipiac built a 19,000-seat on-campus arena to go with that kind of coach salary, and could consistently put at least 17,000 butts in those seats, even in off-years.

If you've got a 19,000 seat on-campus arena, a rabid fan base that still shows up even during bad seasons, plus a fairly recent history of three Final Fours and a National Champion, you really, really, really ought to be able to get any coach  you want, provided you lay out the salary.

Only, that's not a certain AD's formula.

That formula has been to nickle-and-dime the coach salary by hiring unknown, unproven coaches with little to no name recognition.

oldbooniehog

[djgaffer]

just a couple of points...
Bill Self started with a final four team at Kansas.  Heath started with only Blake Eddins at guard and Dionisio Gomez manning the post.  And we beat them on a neutral floor this year.  Why is Self better?

Second, if you fire the coach, you're basically stating to the world that you are still in a rebuilding situation.  You probably lose players that are on campus today, and perhaps the recruits that are coming in.  It would be hard to get a successful coach from a successful program.  Why would you leave a good situation to go to a lesser one?  They all get paid really well, it's not like we're going to double someone's salary at a major program.

Last, we've never selected a coach in this manner.  Nolan was unproven at the big time level.  We made a great selection in him.  If you fire Stan Heath, just be prepared for another Stan Heath, whoever he is and wherever he's coaching now.

[djgaffer]

So what you're saying is we should hang onto a coach we KNOW can't win instead of hiring someone who could possibly win?

I didn't say anything about not firing Heath.  That will play itself based on the rest of the year.  Unless they just absolutely quit down the stretch like they did a year ago, I do think he will still be here.

I was simply saying that if you fire Heath, don't expect Pitino.  Don't expect a coach from a top 10 program to come here to rebuild.  You will most likely get a younger coach on the rise.  Like we did with Sutton.  Like we did with Richardson.  And like we did with Stan Heath.  The latter obviously hasn't worked as well as the two previous to date.

[lanemeyer]

  Just by his reaction to questioning and his lack of emotion on and off the court makes me question his desire and commitment to the team. He doesn't seem truly concerned about anything like it doesn't matter one way or the other. I don't think he'll be fired; however, I wonder what he would if he had other options.  I think it would probably be best for both sides to make the switch.  He always displays the "deer in headlights" after the games and in press conferences.  He's not ready for big time basketball as a head coach. 

[pig-a-riffic]

Funny how everyone is talking about the tradition Arkansas has in basketball but everyone thinks Arkansas is a football school...at least when the subject of "football or basketball school" comes up on here.

Arkansas is a basketball school. Everyone is waiting for Arkansas to come back to prominence. Arkansas had a ton of options after the thing with Nolan happened. Everyone says "well, they had to hire Heath after the Nolan thing" No they didn't. No one would have begruged Arkansas for hiring a name coach the national perception would have been...Arkansas is a big time program and they want to keep winning. Arkansas took the easy way out and hired Heath.

Ark is seen as a BB school OUTSIDE the state.  Inside, FB is king, always will be. 

As for the hiring after nolan was fired.  Sure, not many would have begrudged us hiring a prominet coach.  The thing was, with the shape the program was in, and knowing Nolan would not let it die, would any prominent coach have come into that situation, and, even if they did, would they have hung around to see the program through it? 

COllege Bb is different from Fb.  No longer do you have to be at one of the top schools to have a chance to win big.  In Fb there are about 10 teams every year with a legit shot at a NC.  In BB, especially this year, and with a tournament, there may be 20-30.  Yea, Ucon and Duke are good, but they are beatable. 

[pig-a-riffic]

  Just by his reaction to questioning and his lack of emotion on and off the court makes me question his desire and commitment to the team. He doesn't seem truly concerned about anything like it doesn't matter one way or the other. I don't think he'll be fired; however, I wonder what he would if he had other options.  I think it would probably be best for both sides to make the switch.  He always displays the "deer in headlights" after the games and in press conferences.  He's not ready for big time basketball as a head coach. 

How do you measure emotion?  By what someone shows on the outside?  Very bad way to measure that.  Someone who screams and yells may be no more passionate than someone who never speaks.  I am sure losing tears up Heath as much as it does Bobby Knight, they just show it differently. 

Izzo is not a stupid man, and he thought and apparently still thinks Heath is a good coach. 

[Hawg414]

  Just by his reaction to questioning and his lack of emotion on and off the court makes me question his desire and commitment to the team. He doesn't seem truly concerned about anything like it doesn't matter one way or the other. I don't think he'll be fired; however, I wonder what he would if he had other options.  I think it would probably be best for both sides to make the switch.  He always displays the "deer in headlights" after the games and in press conferences.  He's not ready for big time basketball as a head coach. 

How do you measure emotion?  By what someone shows on the outside?  Very bad way to measure that.  Someone who screams and yells may be no more passionate than someone who never speaks.  I am sure losing tears up Heath as much as it does Bobby Knight, they just show it differently. 

Izzo is not a stupid man, and he thought and apparently still thinks Heath is a good coach. 

maybe he'd be interested in hiring him back

[pig-a-riffic]

No  a new coach would not be rebuilding, at least not to the extent Heath had to.  But, he would not be reloading either.  In my opinion, the only thing this team is missing is a PG who knows how to be a PG.  He has to be the Qb of the team, so to speak.  He is the one that when theire is a play stoppage for FT or on a out of bounds gets in their face and says we need a stop and we are going to get it.  Or we need to show them we own the paint.  And he makes sure it happens.  This team has not real leader.  It isnt Ronnie.  It isnt Thomas, and it sure isnt DJ.  And it isnt McCUrdy either, so dont start that one.  He may be in time, but is not that yet. 

[djgaffer]

And how do you convince a "name" coach that you're not rebuilding if you're firing a guy who's improved every season since he's been here? 

I think it's a little vain of all of to beleive that a big time coach would want to come here just because we have a nice arena and have been to few final fours, none in the last decade.  I don't see where our situation screams "opportunity".

[lanemeyer]

   Understood, I respect that.  I didn't necessarily mean scream and hell and make a scene on the court; however, these are teenage/young adults we are talking about.. sometimes a little ass chewing is helpful.  I've seen Izzo, K, among other "low key" walk down the bench sit down with the player he just pulled out and spend about 30 seconds chewing.  Stan doesn't do this. His hands are on his hips, and gives that "come on" look.

[Hawg414]

And how do you convince a "name" coach that you're not rebuilding if you're firing a guy who's improved every season since he's been here? 

I think it's a little vain of all of to beleive that a big time coach would want to come here just because we have a nice arena and have been to few final fours, none in the last decade.  I don't see where our situation screams "opportunity".

bc you can say "with the talent and team already assembled here, coupled with your coaching skills, this team could have and should have shown remarkable improvement, rather than the marginally minimal improvement it did show"

and yes, i think our situation does scream opportunity.  coaches want to go where they are provided the "means" for success.  not many places that offer better means for success than right here.