Redbird Rundown IX

[pigture perfect]

How much did we spend for Broxton? I just wasnt impressed with him and his performance last year.

[jbell96]

How much did we spend for Broxton? I just wasnt impressed with him and his performance last year.

2 years and 7.5 million so we didn't really spend much on him.

[popcornhog]

2 years and 7.5 million so we didn't really spend much on him.

It's not a deal that's gonna put us over the top, by any stretch.

But it's solid value IMO.

We ABSOLUTELY have to fill 1-2 of the three big needs at SP/Heyward/big bat at 1B. We need a big move or two in those three spots.

[jbell96]

I'm getting really tired of waiting on Heyward to decide. I honestly think the longer this goes on the less likely we get him back. Just ready for this crap to be over.

[McKdaddy]

I'm getting really tired of waiting on Heyward to decide. I honestly think the longer this goes on the less likely we get him back. Just ready for this crap to be over.

Theo used to drive up player costs for the Yanks.  Don't know if the cubs are doing the same here or truly interested in JHey.

[hoghappy]

Theo is an enemy for sure. I admire, yet hate.

[jrulz83]

There's some pretty funny stuff on here:

https://twitter.com/hashtag/ThingsFasterThanHeywardDecision?src=hash

[jrulz83]

Sounding like Heyward to Cubs...

[Dropkick]

ESPN reporting it now.....

[WMHawgfan]

yep we have completely whiffed in the free agent market. In reading Mo's comments on www.stlcardinals.com yesterday it also appears they have no interest in going after Davis either. I suspect we will get that tired statement about they felt looking internally for players to fill the roles was the best option.

[bob slydell]

Pair whiffing on re-signing Heyward with the massive haul the Braves were able to flip Shelby Miller for. And it looks like Mozeliak botched the Heyward thing from start to finish. Should have gotten more from trading a young arm with so much upside like Miller.

[jbell96]

I'm withholding judgement on Mo until after the dust settles, but this is dumbfounding. We offered 30 year old David Price 7/200, but we couldn't be an offer of 8/185 for the 26 year old Heyward? Just doesn't make sense to me.

Question for everyone, who would we have to end up getting for you to be somewhat satisfied with the off-season?

[pigture perfect]

I'm ready to be rid of Mo. I've never cared for him and I've taken some heat on here for that. But I sure wish Dombrowski (sp) would replace him.

[WMHawgfan]

not sure how true it is but they are saying on the local sports show here in Memphis that he turned down a bigger offer from STL to go to Chicago.

if true the hell with him.

[pigture perfect]

I can't believe that WM.

[jrulz83]

I'm withholding judgement on Mo until after the dust settles, but this is dumbfounding. We offered 30 year old David Price 7/200, but we couldn't be an offer of 8/185 for the 26 year old Heyward? Just doesn't make sense to me.

Question for everyone, who would we have to end up getting for you to be somewhat satisfied with the off-season?

Some would be dissatisfied with signing career peak Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle, Honus Wagner, Satchel Paige, and Cy Young. "Mo should have got Gibson and Drysdale too." they'd say.

I'm not really that upset about Heyward. Was he a dynamic player? Yes. Would I like him on the team? Yes. However, his bat never has profiled as a $185 million player and likely never will. $20 million per would have been my max.

I'm going to allow the whole offseason to play out before I make any judgments.

[clutch]

I can't believe that WM.

I can. A 26 year old wanting to team up with a lot of other young superstars on a team that looks like it should make a WS run quickly. Believable to me.

[clutch]

I know Mo doesn't make a lot of big splash signings, but I still don't get why everyone gets so down on him. He's built one heckuva baseball team and avoided having to have that big name signing the whole time. We have one of the best farm systems in baseball and a team that won 100 games at the same time. That's pretty dang good. He makes smart deals, not big deals. Moves like the Lackey deal a few years ago or moving Jay and getting Gyorko this year and basically getting him paid for by the Padres.

[Jacob "2 Scoops" Johnson]

I know Mo doesn't make a lot of big splash signings, but I still don't get why everyone gets so down on him. He's built one heckuva baseball team and avoided having to have that big name signing the whole time. We have one of the best farm systems in baseball and a team that won 100 games at the same time. That's pretty dang good. He makes smart deals, not big deals. Moves like the Lackey deal a few years ago or moving Jay and getting Gyorko this year and basically getting him paid for by the Padres.

Mostly because we have the best farm system due to scouting and development. He does nothing directly pretty much. If Gyrko is as good as Mo gets, I see why people get down on him. Even his "big trade" looks to now be kind of a bust (Heyward).

[pigture perfect]

I don't know why people keep talking up our farm system.Last I remember the Cards only have 2-3 on the top 100 prospect list. I catch many of the Springfield games. I know it's only AA, but besides Tilson, I'm not seeing to many position players ever making it to elite status major leaguers.

[jbell96]

Some would be dissatisfied with signing career peak Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle, Honus Wagner, Satchel Paige, and Cy Young. "Mo should have got Gibson and Drysdale too." they'd say.

I'm not really that upset about Heyward. Was he a dynamic player? Yes. Would I like him on the team? Yes. However, his bat never has profiled as a $185 million player and likely never will. $20 million per would have been my max.

I'm going to allow the whole offseason to play out before I make any judgments.

Same here, reserving judgement, if we get someone like Cespedes or Gordon to replace Heyward in the OF & get a good starting pitcher or power bat I will be fine with it. Heyward was a one year Cardinal so it's not like Pujols went to the Cubs.

Cubs now have to deal with expectations and pressure. Didn't have any of that last year, let's see how they do with high expectations and everyone gunning for them. The Nationals were everyone's pick to win the WS in 2015 & we see how that worked out.

[Jacob "2 Scoops" Johnson]

Same here, reserving judgement, if we get someone like Cespedes or Gordon to replace Heyward in the OF & get a good starting pitcher or power bat I will be fine with it. Heyward was a one year Cardinal so it's not like Pujols went to the Cubs.

Cubs now have to deal with expectations and pressure. Didn't have any of that last year, let's see how they do with high expectations and everyone gunning for them. The Nationals were everyone's pick to win the WS in 2015 & we see how that worked out.

The only difference in my opinion being the Cubs are now set up to win big for the next 4 to 5 years, at least. I mean the young talent on that team is absolutely ridiculous.

[MountainHomeHogger]

He was offered 200M from the Cardinals and Nationals! 

[ucahogfan]

I know Mo doesn't make a lot of big splash signings, but I still don't get why everyone gets so down on him. He's built one heckuva baseball team and avoided having to have that big name signing the whole time. We have one of the best farm systems in baseball and a team that won 100 games at the same time. That's pretty dang good. He makes smart deals, not big deals. Moves like the Lackey deal a few years ago or moving Jay and getting Gyorko this year and basically getting him paid for by the Padres.

The Cardinals HAD one of the best farm systems in baseball.  Now most of those players have graduated and it is weak at the top after Alex Reyes.  The next prospect according to MLB.com is Jack Flaherty who comes in at #100 overall.

Even his "big trade" looks to now be kind of a bust (Heyward).

How is J-Hey a "bust"?  He was worth 6.5 WAR or something like that last season.  That is an elite level player.  Sure, it looks like the Braves have emerged as the winners of the trade right now considering the haul we got for Miller, but J-Hey was the MVP of the Cardinals last year.  Y'all don't win 100 games without him.

I can. A 26 year old wanting to team up with a lot of other young superstars on a team that looks like it should make a WS run quickly. Believable to me.

Yeah, I can see why J-Hey would sign there.  Theo could sell playing with Bryant, Rizzo, Schwarber, and Russell for the majority of his contract while the Cards don't have a young player of their caliber and Harper is going to sign a 400M contract with the Yankees in a couple of years.  The situation is Chicago is much better for a young player like him right now compared to St. Louis or Washington.

[pigture perfect]

I agree UCA about our farm system. We've burned it up. We need a couple of long term free agent types that can let our system recoup.

[popcornhog]

He was offered 200M from the Cardinals and Nationals!

It was the super player friendly opt outs that won the day.

I think this pretty much sums up the offseason thus far:

[popcornhog]

The Cardinals HAD one of the best farm systems in baseball.  Now most of those players have graduated and it is weak at the top after Alex Reyes.  The next prospect according to MLB.com is Jack Flaherty who comes in at #100 overall.
How is J-Hey a "bust"?  He was worth 6.5 WAR or something like that last season.  That is an elite level player.  Sure, it looks like the Braves have emerged as the winners of the trade right now considering the haul we got for Miller, but J-Hey was the MVP of the Cardinals last year.  Y'all don't win 100 games without him.
Yeah, I can see why J-Hey would sign there.  Theo could sell playing with Bryant, Rizzo, Schwarber, and Russell for the majority of his contract while the Cards don't have a young player of their caliber and Harper is going to sign a 400M contract with the Yankees in a couple of years.  The situation is Chicago is much better for a young player like him right now compared to St. Louis or Washington.

J Hey is a "bust" in that we only got him for one year. I'm pretty sure that's what he meant.

The Braves won that trade big time. Had we re-signed Heyward, I'd actually have called it a push. Dude is an elite outfielder and great base runner. He is my type of player.

[ucahogfan]

J Hey is a "bust" in that we only got him for one year. I'm pretty sure that's what he meant.

The Braves won that trade big time. Had we re-signed Heyward, I'd actually have called it a push. Dude is an elite outfielder and great base runner. He is my type of player.

It was never a given that J-Hey was going to re-sign with the Cards.  Now, the Cards did pony up when they needed to by offering 200M+, but like you said above, he took the more player friendly contract with the Cubs with two opt-outs and maybe a higher average annual value.

I think saying the Braves won big time right now is a little ahead of schedule.  J-Hey and Walden were worth right at 7 WAR last year while Miller was worth right around 3.5 WAR for the Braves.  I think this is a trade that will need to be looked at in 2019 for the Braves side when Swanson, Jenkins, and Blair are all in the big leagues.  Inciarte will still be under Braves' control as well unless we flip him.  Rumors had a dozen teams reaching out to the Braves within the first 24 hours after the trade for him.

It will be interesting to see how the rest of the offseason goes for the Cards.  It sounds like they have 200M to split up over the next 7 years between whoever they want to bring in.

[Jacob "2 Scoops" Johnson]

Think everyone pretty much said form the start the JHey trade was going to be judged in the long-term due to the contract situation. It's not even long-term now but still pretty clear who won. We got one year of JHey, the Braves ultimately got top-flight prospects. Plural. Send me back a year, and I would surely take the A-list prospects over JHey for one year for Miller.

[pigture perfect]

I see us where the Braves are is 2-3 years, if that long.

[popcornhog]

I see us where the Braves are is 2-3 years, if that long.

True, but we have already lost Heyward. Even if we go on to win the next 3 World Series in a row, it won't have anything to do with the Shelby/Heyward trade. If we hadn't made that trade, we'd still have Shelby Miller. We lost the trade, but it's not the end of the world. We're still in better shape than Atlanta.

[hoghappy]

Are the Cardinals known to be courting anyone presently?

[jrulz83]

Are the Cardinals known to be courting anyone presently?

No one "dynamic." It sounds like it's going to be complementary moves from here on out. Bullpen and pitching depth seem to be the main focuses from this article:

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/mozeliak-says-cards-no-longer-looking-for-dynamic-signing/article_0fc30cae-22ef-594a-9561-a911b7019a9e.html

Everybody will gripe about Mozeliak for sure after they read this article. It sounds like they (and rightly so) put a lot of weight into the run differential numbers they generate. Now this is where people will get angry. When Mozeliak talks about different ways to generate run differential he talks about pitching and defense. People want runs. I don't, I want wins; pitching and defense have always been integral to a winning team.

Fans that watched this team last year know about the struggle to score runs and that has been their primary focus on last season. It's pretty obvious that the team needed help offensively for next year, but I can see that production coming from players already on the roster. Granted it's a rose colored glasses kind of thing, but you have to think Holliday is champing at the bit to atone for his injury plagued season, Adams as well, Grichuk has a big power potential, Piscotty will hit, Moss will be another year removed from his hip surgery and playing for his next contract. Gyorko has pop, if Matheny will play him frequently (kind of like Larussa did Miles) I think he'll hit more homers than Heyward did. Carpenter will be fine.

I really think that Wong is a key cog offensively next year, he has to turn it around at the plate. Maybe he does with the increased time off he should get from the Gyorko trade. Peralta should benefit from more time off from that move as well. Again that's if Matheny plays Gyorko as often as he should.

I'm more concerned with the rotation than the lineup. This team is probably never going to out slug anybody and if we're going to win with pitching then there's some glaring needs. Counting on Jaime Garcia for 200 innings is a fool's errand. Wacha appeared fatigued much of the second half last year and Martinez had the shoulder issue that we're still not sure about. Wainwright; who really know what he'll look like? The Cardinals really need a solid 200 innings guy more than a 200 K first baseman like Chris Davis.

Pitching is like firewood. Just when you think you have enough make the pile three times bigger, and you might have enough to make it until midnight.

[WMHawgfan]

No one "dynamic." It sounds like it's going to be complementary moves from here on out. Bullpen and pitching depth seem to be the main focuses from this article:

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/mozeliak-says-cards-no-longer-looking-for-dynamic-signing/article_0fc30cae-22ef-594a-9561-a911b7019a9e.html

Everybody will gripe about Mozeliak for sure after they read this article. It sounds like they (and rightly so) put a lot of weight into the run differential numbers they generate. Now this is where people will get angry. When Mozeliak talks about different ways to generate run differential he talks about pitching and defense. People want runs. I don't, I want wins; pitching and defense have always been integral to a winning team.

Fans that watched this team last year know about the struggle to score runs and that has been their primary focus on last season. It's pretty obvious that the team needed help offensively for next year, but I can see that production coming from players already on the roster. Granted it's a rose colored glasses kind of thing, but you have to think Holliday is champing at the bit to atone for his injury plagued season, Adams as well, Grichuk has a big power potential, Piscotty will hit, Moss will be another year removed from his hip surgery and playing for his next contract. Gyorko has pop, if Matheny will play him frequently (kind of like Larussa did Miles) I think he'll hit more homers than Heyward did. Carpenter will be fine.

I really think that Wong is a key cog offensively next year, he has to turn it around at the plate. Maybe he does with the increased time off he should get from the Gyorko trade. Peralta should benefit from more time off from that move as well. Again that's if Matheny plays Gyorko as often as he should.

I'm more concerned with the rotation than the lineup. This team is probably never going to out slug anybody and if we're going to win with pitching then there's some glaring needs. Counting on Jaime Garcia for 200 innings is a fool's errand. Wacha appeared fatigued much of the second half last year and Martinez had the shoulder issue that we're still not sure about. Wainwright; who really know what he'll look like? The Cardinals really need a solid 200 innings guy more than a 200 K first baseman like Chris Davis.

Pitching is like firewood. Just when you think you have enough make the pile three times bigger, and you might have enough to make it until midnight.

I know the pitching staff carried the team most of the year but if you look at the Cubs series the biggest problem we had was we couldn't keep the ball in the yard. Other than Lackey they murdered everyone we put out there. I don't mind the logistical approach Mo takes but it just feels like eventually this approach is going backfire. Right now it just feels like we are third place at best in the division. I think we are gambling on a staff with two injury prone starters and one wildly inconsistent guy to carry us. I could be way off but it just feels like this is the year we fall back to the middle of the pack. My thinking is probably like most in that it would be nice to see them be players in the free agent market occasionally, its not like they don't have the cash to do it.

[jrulz83]

I know the pitching staff carried the team most of the year but if you look at the Cubs series the biggest problem we had was we couldn't keep the ball in the yard. Other than Lackey they murdered everyone we put out there. I don't mind the logistical approach Mo takes but it just feels like eventually this approach is going backfire. Right now it just feels like we are third place at best in the division. I think we are gambling on a staff with two injury prone starters and one wildly inconsistent guy to carry us. I could be way off but it just feels like this is the year we fall back to the middle of the pack. My thinking is probably like most in that it would be nice to see them be players in the free agent market occasionally, its not like they don't have the cash to do it.

So they weren't players this year? They drove the price on Heyward and Price, made competitive offers to both; they just didn't get the ball over the goal line as it were. That doesn't mean they weren't players. At this point it seems as if they feel like their internal options are as good or better (dollar for dollar of course) than any free agent currently available. What's wrong with that?

You had balls flying all over Wrigley because you had one guy pitching with stomach virus, another on a career high innings count that looked extremely fatigued, another with a sore shoulder and out, a fourth with a torn up elbow, and your ace was limited to bullpen duty because of an injury. Hardly the healthiest group at the time.

All I'm saying is let us see what the club looks like come opening day before we declare it DOA. There are still some things that can be done to improve the 2016 team. I'd like a solid starting pitcher. I think the offense will have enough if they can get a pitcher.

[clutch]

I don't know why people keep talking up our farm system.Last I remember the Cards only have 2-3 on the top 100 prospect list. I catch many of the Springfield games. I know it's only AA, but besides Tilson, I'm not seeing to many position players ever making it to elite status major leaguers.

I should have said "had". Most of that talent is now on the team.

[clutch]

Are the Cubs going to be able to keep all those young guys they have once it's time for them to get real contracts?

[sooiepig_12]

No one "dynamic." It sounds like it's going to be complementary moves from here on out. Bullpen and pitching depth seem to be the main focuses from this article:

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/mozeliak-says-cards-no-longer-looking-for-dynamic-signing/article_0fc30cae-22ef-594a-9561-a911b7019a9e.html

Everybody will gripe about Mozeliak for sure after they read this article. It sounds like they (and rightly so) put a lot of weight into the run differential numbers they generate. Now this is where people will get angry. When Mozeliak talks about different ways to generate run differential he talks about pitching and defense. People want runs. I don't, I want wins; pitching and defense have always been integral to a winning team.

Fans that watched this team last year know about the struggle to score runs and that has been their primary focus on last season. It's pretty obvious that the team needed help offensively for next year, but I can see that production coming from players already on the roster. Granted it's a rose colored glasses kind of thing, but you have to think Holliday is champing at the bit to atone for his injury plagued season, Adams as well, Grichuk has a big power potential, Piscotty will hit, Moss will be another year removed from his hip surgery and playing for his next contract. Gyorko has pop, if Matheny will play him frequently (kind of like Larussa did Miles) I think he'll hit more homers than Heyward did. Carpenter will be fine.

I really think that Wong is a key cog offensively next year, he has to turn it around at the plate. Maybe he does with the increased time off he should get from the Gyorko trade. Peralta should benefit from more time off from that move as well. Again that's if Matheny plays Gyorko as often as he should.

I'm more concerned with the rotation than the lineup. This team is probably never going to out slug anybody and if we're going to win with pitching then there's some glaring needs. Counting on Jaime Garcia for 200 innings is a fool's errand. Wacha appeared fatigued much of the second half last year and Martinez had the shoulder issue that we're still not sure about. Wainwright; who really know what he'll look like? The Cardinals really need a solid 200 innings guy more than a 200 K first baseman like Chris Davis.

Pitching is like firewood. Just when you think you have enough make the pile three times bigger, and you might have enough to make it until midnight.

I agree on Gyorko.  Carp needs more off days as well.  Hopefully his average will climb closer to .300 this season.  As far as pitching goes, I hope we make a run at Maeda.  I saw an article that mentioned him maybe taking a 6 year 60 mil deal plus the 20 million posting fee would be very reasonable.  He may not want to venture into Middle America but I would at least like to see us make a run at him.  If we don't sign a pitcher I would like to see Cooney be the man.  I like Lyons but he gives up a ton of dingers, and Gonzales had a bad year across all levels last year albeit an injury plagued season. 

[clutch]

Rockies possibly looking to unload entire outfield. I'd take any of the 3.

[Supermark101]

Rockies possibly looking to unload entire outfield. I'd take any of the 3.

I am a huge Rockies fan. It makes me sad to see Tulo and Cargo go. Gotta tare it down I guess. It's amazing what the cards have been able to do for so long. I'm just not sold on the pitching we got for Tulo.

Are the Cubs going to be able to keep all those young guys they have once it's time for them to get real contracts?

I'd say yes. Their TV deal is going to be HUGE.

[pigture perfect]

I would like Dickerson out of the Rockies. Good looking young player. I dont think he would cost much. I am good with Piscotti at first.

[ChicoHog]

Rockies possibly looking to unload entire outfield. I'd take any of the 3.

My Dodgers will give you Puig for Arenado!

Dodgers similar to Cards off-season as the fans are griping because they did not do "anything".  I am disappointed but it is still a few months before the season starts. 

[clutch]

I would like Dickerson out of the Rockies. Good looking young player. I dont think he would cost much. I am good with Piscotti at first.

I'd prefer either him or CarGo, but I wouldn't be disappointed with Blackmon either.

[pigture perfect]

Anyone hearing anything? Rumors or truth, I'm desperate for news.

[jrulz83]

Anyone hearing anything? Rumors or truth, I'm desperate for news.

Supposedly trying to swing a deal for Jake Odorizzi, I doubt it's true; it doesn't fit the Rays modus operandi.

Supposedly still in on Mike Leake.

Holliday is in Jupiter working out at first base, I find that interesting.

Molina had a second surgery on his thumb and is likely to miss all of Spring Training. More than likely Brayan Pena will see full time duty to start the season.

Jason Heyward called Holliday, Molina, and Wainwright old. That sounded like his primary reason for not signing.

That's about all I got.

[ucahogfan]

Supposedly trying to swing a deal for Jake Odorizzi, I doubt it's true; it doesn't fit the Rays modus operandi.

Odorizzi would bring back an elite prospect who would have more team control and be cheaper over the next couple of years which is in the Rays modus operandi.  While Shelby Miller had a better year last year, Odorizzi was still a very good pitcher and has a lot of team control left.  To get Odorizzi, it would probably take Reyes headlining the deal as the Cards really do not have another top prospect to offer.  I'm not sure if the Cards would want to give up a top 20 prospect, but the window with the current core appears to be closing so it might take a solid #2/#3 to slot in after Waino next year to make the playoffs again.

Jason Heyward called Holliday, Molina, and Wainwright old. That sounded like his primary reason for not signing.

Can you blame him for wanting to join a core that includes Rizzo, Bryant, Russell, and Schwarber who are all his age or younger or stay on a team with Holliday, Molina, and Peralta who are near the end of their careers?

[jrulz83]

Odorizzi would bring back an elite prospect who would have more team control and be cheaper over the next couple of years which is in the Rays modus operandi.  While Shelby Miller had a better year last year, Odorizzi was still a very good pitcher and has a lot of team control left.  To get Odorizzi, it would probably take Reyes headlining the deal as the Cards really do not have another top prospect to offer.  I'm not sure if the Cards would want to give up a top 20 prospect, but the window with the current core appears to be closing so it might take a solid #2/#3 to slot in after Waino next year to make the playoffs again.

Kind of like Jaime Garcia, Michael Wacha, or Carlos Martinez? Or even Mike Leake or Scott Kazmir? I doubt that the Cardinals will be trading Reyes.

Can you blame him for wanting to join a core that includes Rizzo, Bryant, Russell, and Schwarber who are all his age or younger or stay on a team with Holliday, Molina, and Peralta who are near the end of their careers?

No, did it sound like I blame him? I think the pressure on Heyward would have been tremendous had he stayed in St. Louis. No offense intended, but the guy isn't a star. He's an elite defender, good player, and I would like to have him on my team, but he isn't an offensive threat. I think he sees an opportunity to be a complementary type player instead of depended on to be an offensive threat. He did what he thought best for him, I take no offense in it.

[jrulz83]

Looking like Mike Leake is close to signing. If it indeed happens, I think this is a good move for the Cardinals. It's not the flashy move that fans like, but it's the solid veteran starter that I think this team needs.

[jbell96]

Looking like Mike Leake is close to signing. If it indeed happens, I think this is a good move for the Cardinals. It's not the flashy move that fans like, but it's the solid veteran starter that I think this team needs.

I think I saw somewhere that he's 17-5 in his career against Pittsburgh & Chicago with an ERA in the low 3's. Plus a 3.19 career ERA in Busch, he will be a nice fit if he get him.

[ChicoHog]

Just saw it on MLB network that Leake has agreed to terms with the Cardinals.  I was hoping Dodgers would get him.  Congrats to you guys.