Build your All-Hog team. (Skill positions on Offense)

[Pork Twain]

Didn't read the whole thread, but I have thought about the OP before.

If Matt Jones had been born, say, 3 years later, man, how great would a Jones/McFadden/Felix/Hillis backfield have been?  I daresay we could've gotten away with Nutt's "run, run, run some more" offense in that scenario.  Probably still would've lost to USC in 2006, but I think we run the table otherwise (almost did anyway).

But then, what if Darren was born, say, 3 years later?  How incredible would a Mallett/McFadden/Childs/Adams/Wright offense have been?  Not that Knile Davis was bad or anything, but McFadden was a once-a-generation talent, and, we didn't settle on Davis as the main guy til mid-season in 2010 IIRC.  Tried to force Broderick Green as the main back early.

Fun scenarios to think about.

Therein lies the challenge with the recruiting base that any coach at Arkansas must overcome.  Other schools might have in-state access to those dream scenarios, but we never have all of that talent at once.

[Soooie21]

qb-Ferguson, Mallet..
rb-DMC, Anderson, Cowin, Morton, F. Jones
Wr- Dicus, Alworth, Lucas.
Te-Kirk Botkin, Henry, Dj....
FB-Hillis..

[al_pigcino]

I'd put some good hard cash on that he would be more than relevant now.........

He did an amazing job tackling those slow running backs.  Brooks Ellis is more of an athlete than Butkus.  How many times did you see him struggle to catch running backs? 

[Kevin]

He did an amazing job tackling those slow running backs.  Brooks Ellis is more of an athlete than Butkus.  How many times did you see him struggle to catch running backs? 

no way is ellis more athletic than butkus.  butkus was a beast before the knee injuries

[Pork Twain]

So let me get this right, when making the mistake of attempting to compare across generations, you refuse to at least admit that the modern conditioning, weight training, and overall development that current HS and college athletes receive would NOT have also benefited the greats from the past and made them much better today than the players they were back then?  They would have been like, "I am great and I do not need to be a part of this process, I will just rely on my god given talent."  Just trying to follow this logic.

[thebignasty]

I know you want offense, but I'm starting with the back 4 on defense. This wouldn't be a pleasant secondary to venture into.
-Kenoy Kennedy
-David Barrett
-Steve Atwater
-Ken Hamlin

Tough with one true corner.

[al_pigcino]

So let me get this right, when making the mistake of attempting to compare across generations, you refuse to at least admit that the modern conditioning, weight training, and overall development that current HS and college athletes receive would NOT have also benefited the greats from the past and made them much better today than the players they were back then?  They would have been like, "I am great and I do not need to be a part of this process, I will just rely on my god given talent."  Just trying to follow this logic.

No.  The point was bringing NFL athletes from the 60's to now.  If you did that they would not compete.

However, if the point was "if ______ from the 60's grew up today, where would they be on the all time list" were the question it would be totally different. 

Jim Brown being born in 1990?  Going to be a stud.  Jim Brown born in 1930 and brought to today's age?  He wouldn't start for the Browns. 

[DLUXHOG]

No.  The point was bringing NFL athletes from the 60's to now.  If you did that they would not compete.

However, if the point was "if ______ from the 60's grew up today, where would they be on the all time list" were the question it would be totally different. 

Jim Brown being born in 1990?  Going to be a stud.  Jim Brown born in 1930 and brought to today's age?  He wouldn't start for the Browns. 

That would make him 96 years old, so..........yep, I'd have to agree with ya on that.....

[hog.goblin]

QB - Joe Ferguson
RB - Darren McFadden
RB - Gary Anderson
FB - Peyton Hillis
WR - Jarous Wright
WR - Marcus Monk
WR - Joe Adams
TE - Hunter Henry

If I can get Alworth in there somewhere, maybe have him at WR and Joe at PR then I'm with you.  This is the best offense, with little argument.

[Hardcore Hoggy]

So let me get this right, when making the mistake of attempting to compare across generations, you refuse to at least admit that the modern conditioning, weight training, and overall development that current HS and college athletes receive would NOT have also benefited the greats from the past and made them much better today than the players they were back then?  They would have been like, "I am great and I do not need to be a part of this process, I will just rely on my god given talent."  Just trying to follow this logic.

LOL I Know right.

Imagine, for example, how many home runs a roided up Babe Ruth could have hit in a season. Sheesh, 80? 90?

[Pork Twain]

No.  The point was bringing NFL athletes from the 60's to now.  If you did that they would not compete.

However, if the point was "if ______ from the 60's grew up today, where would they be on the all time list" were the question it would be totally different. 

Jim Brown being born in 1990?  Going to be a stud.  Jim Brown born in 1930 and brought to today's age?  He wouldn't start for the Browns. 

Well that just makes no sense.  We are talking about Jim Brown the highly skilled player and how he would play today.  If we are going to do that, we also have to assume that he would have reaped the benefits that his peers do in todays game.  You cannot just compare his talent relative to his peers and ignore that same correlation to those you are comparing him to ad their peers.  He was a man among boys back then and I have little doubt that would be any different today.

[al_pigcino]

Well that just makes no sense.  We are talking about Jim Brown the highly skilled player and how he would play today.  If we are going to do that, we also have to assume that he would have reaped the benefits that his peers do in todays game.  You cannot just compare his talent relative to his peers and ignore that same correlation to those you are comparing him to ad their peers.  He was a man among boys back then and I have little doubt that would be any different today.

You can have little doubt but I can have a ton of doubt.  Jim Brown and Gale Sayers were great in their day.  But against today's athletes they wouldn't stand a chance.  They would be mediocre at best. 

[hog.goblin]

You can have little doubt but I can have a ton of doubt.  Jim Brown and Gale Sayers were great in their day.  But against today's athletes they wouldn't stand a chance.  They would be mediocre at best. 

My nomination for dumbest post of 2017.

[DLUXHOG]

You can have little doubt but I can have a ton of doubt.  Jim Brown and Gale Sayers were great in their day.  But against today's athletes they wouldn't stand a chance.  They would be mediocre at best. 

How freaking old are you? 10? (BTW, those players in the 60's wore a fraction of the protection that players today wear, and most, if not all, played with and through severe injury....)

[Pork Twain]

You can have little doubt but I can have a ton of doubt.  Jim Brown and Gale Sayers were great in their day.  But against today's athletes they wouldn't stand a chance.  They would be mediocre at best. 

You are correct, if you plan to remove from them the same benefits that the peers they are competing against have had their whole lives, that would be called handicapping them.  That is why it is unwise to compare across generations.  You cannot just bring the player to today without also figuring in how the advancements of today would have impacted them.

[texhog]

Why would anyone look only at physical attributes to compare?  What makes the greatest ones great are the 6 inches between the ears.  Great ones can combine their physical attributes with the intellect, awareness, eye-hand coordination, anticipation, etc.  It's not all just about how fast or big you are.  How many guys test out great at the combine with physical measurables but can't make a roster?  Players can play regardless of generation.

[al_pigcino]

My nomination for dumbest post of 2017.

Because you don't agree?  Sorry if I hurt your childhood hero image.  Just because someone ran well against lesser athletes 50-60 years ago doesn't mean they are great.  Just means they are ahead of their time. 

[thebignasty]

That would make him 96 years old, so..........yep, I'd have to agree with ya on that.....

Uhhh

[al_pigcino]

That would make him 96 years old, so..........yep, I'd have to agree with ya on that.....

It's ok if you miss the point.  This thread might be moving too fast for you.  Much like the defensive players of today would be moving too fast for 60's era running backs. 

[Pork Twain]

It's ok if you miss the point.  This thread might be moving too fast for you.  Much like the defensive players of today would be moving too fast for 60's era running backs. 

When you have failed as bad as you have at making a valid point, personal insults just make it worse.  You cannot move a player to a different era without giving them the same variables as the peer group you have them facing, that is called being disingenuous.

[PonderinHog]

When you have failed as bad as you have at making a valid point, personal insults just make it worse.  You cannot move a player to a different era without giving them the same variables as the peer group you have them facing, that is called being disingenuous.

Hell, he's probably never heard of Charlie Hustle either!   

[Soooie21]

Nice group. I was waiting for a Jerry Eckwood mention and another RB that comes to mind, Ike Forte......man, that guy was exciting. Ben Cowins was no slouch either.

I am an old timer, there are so many players,,,this list is great also..don't be fooled, if you are a great player, you are a great player during any era..

[lwillin]

Here's my 3-deep depth chart for skill position players.  Sorry, can't narrow it down considering all the great players we have to consider.  Starters listed first.

Pro-style QBs:   Joe Ferguson, Ryan Mallett, Tyler Wilson
Dual-threat QB:   Quinn Grovey, Matt Jones, Greg Thomas
Bulldog, do-what-it-takes QB:   Ron Calcagni, Clint Stoerner, Bill Montgomery
TBs:   Darren McFadden, Madre Hill, Jerry Eckwood (pre-injury), Dicky Morton, Alex Collins, James Rouse
FBs:   Barry Foster, Peyton Hillis, Bruce Maxwell
TEs:   Hunter Henry, D.J. Williams, Charles Clay
WRs:   Anthony Lucas, Chuck Dicus, Jarius Wright
WRs:   Lance Alworth, James Shibest, Bobby Crockett
KR:   Felix Jones, Dennis Johnson, Bobby Joe Edmonds
PR:   Gary Anderson, Joe Adams, Ken Hatfield

I haven't read the whole thread, but glad to see Shibest on your list. Dude could catch a bb in a snowstorm.

[bennyl08]

Why would anyone look only at physical attributes to compare?  What makes the greatest ones great are the 6 inches between the ears.  Great ones can combine their physical attributes with the intellect, awareness, eye-hand coordination, anticipation, etc.  It's not all just about how fast or big you are.  How many guys test out great at the combine with physical measurables but can't make a roster?  Players can play regardless of generation.

The number of players who test out great at the combine but can't make a roster is way, way, way smaller than the number of players who are very intelligent and have great technique, but don't test well.

[hog.goblin]

Because you don't agree?  Sorry if I hurt your childhood hero image.  Just because someone ran well against lesser athletes 50-60 years ago doesn't mean they are great.  Just means they are ahead of their time. 

I wasn't born yet.  I just have the ability to reason.

[EastexHawg]

Here are the guys I think are "automatic".

DT Loyd Phillips
DT Dan Hampton
DE Billy Ray Smith, Jr.
LB Ronnie Caveness
WR Chuck Dicus...he was a two-time first team All-American and a member of the College Football Hall of Fame.  Not sure how he can be left off.
RB  Darren McFadden
B  Lance Alworth

For a single season the best kicker we ever had was Kendall Trainor.  He was simply amazing in 1988.  I know about and I love Steve Little, and he had unbelievable range...of a tee, by the way...but I don't think he was the most accurate kicker we ever had.  The same goes for Bill McClard, another first team All-American.

Speaking of single seasons, I never saw a linebacker any more dominant for one year than Jermaine Petty.  I'm not sure that qualifies him for a spot on the all-time team, but he was incredible in 2001.

My dad always believed the four best Razorbacks he ever saw were Clyde Scott, Wayne Harris, Lance Alworth...and Bill Montgomery.  Personally I debate the QB position between Montgomery, Matt Jones, and Ryan Mallett. 

Arkansas could field a defensive line as good as any team in history.  Phillips, Hampton, Billy Ray, Jr...along with other candidates such as Jimmy Walker, Dick Bumpas, Wayne Martin, etc.

Maybe not "automatic", but I would put Glen Ray Hines on the offensive line.  Shawn Andrews probably deserves a spot, too.  I honestly think Hunter Henry is probably the best tight end I ever saw at Arkansas.  Cliff Powell was a tacking machine, but he can't hold that title at Arkansas because Ronnie Caveness deserves it.  I really believe Caveness has as good a claim as anyone as the best football player we've ever put on the field.

Okay, so I guess I've got:

WR Chuck Dicus
FL  Lance Alworth (I'll put him here even though he was a back when he played)
TE  Hunter Henry
T  Glen Ray Hines
T  Shawn Andrews
G  Steve Korte
G  Leotis Harris
C  Jonathan Luigs or Rodney Brand...both great, different eras
QB  Mallett/Jones/Montgomery...I can't decide so I will chicken out
RB  Darren McFadden
RB  Gary Anderson/Ben Cowins

DL  Billy Ray Smith, Jr.
DL  Loyd Phillips
DL  Dan Hampton
DL  Dick Bumpas
DL  Wayne Martin
LB  Ronnie Caveness
LB  Cliff Powell
LB  Wayne Harris
DB  Steve Atwater
DB  Kenoy Kennedy
DB  Martine Bercher
DB  Terry Stewart/Chris Houston/ I have no idea.  CB is probably historically our weakest position

K  Kendall Trainor
P  Steve Cox/Steve Little
Punt Returner  Ken Hatfield
Kick Returner  Felix Jones

Coach  Frank Broyles

[Jackrabbit Hog]

My dad always believed the four best Razorbacks he ever saw were Clyde Scott, Wayne Harris, Lance Alworth...and Bill Montgomery.

My dad's two favorite all time were Leon "Muscles" Campbell and Loyd Phillips.  He said Muscles Campbell was truly a man among boys when he played.

[dsf]

All of the best athletes would be this generation.  No athlete from the 60's would even compete at the level now.  All time team should really consist of everything from late 80's to now. 

The difference would be linemen...backs would be in the same ballpark.

[dsf]

It's ok if you miss the point.  This thread might be moving too fast for you.  Much like the defensive players of today would be moving too fast for 60's era running backs. 

Defensive players today are bigger, not faster.

[EastexHawg]

The "he would be too small, weak, and slow to excel today" argument is ridiculous.  Players from previous decades would benefit from today's nutrition and technology.

60 year old Jack Nicklaus, playing with an artificial hip, averaged as many yards off the tee as the 40 year old Nicklaus who set the U.S. Open scoring record by three shots and lapped the field in the biggest (at the time) runaway in PGA Championship history.

Was 60 year old Nicklaus bigger, stronger, and quicker than 40 year old Nicklaus?  Or did he benefit from the same advances in medicine/health and technology that benefitted other, younger players as well?

[Youngsta71701]

My nomination for dumbest post of 2017.

+1, As a matter of fact some of those same players he's talking about that would be no good today would probably be even better if they used the same training and technology that we have today...

For example if Dick Butkus ran a 4.8 in those days he would probably run at 4.6 or better today. If Gale Sayers ran a 4.6 in those days he would probably run a 4.4 today. And I don't even want to talk about Jim Brown. That wouldn't even be fair. He would be Bo Jackson before Bo Jackson. I'm guessing Bo Jackson wouldn't be great in 2017 either...

And I'm a fairly young man talking like this. Got to give the old schoolers their props. They were meaner and more competitive in those days. I don't like how soft the game has become now days. Too much politics. Those were the days where everybody just played for the love of the game.

[al_pigcino]

+1, As a matter of fact some of those same players he's talking about that would be no good today would probably be even better if they used the same training and technology that we have today...

For example if Dick Butkus ran a 4.8 in those days he would probably run at 4.6 or better today. If Gale Sayers ran a 4.6 in those days he would probably run a 4.4 today. And I don't even want to talk about Jim Brown. That wouldn't even be fair. He would be Bo Jackson before Bo Jackson. I'm guessing Bo Jackson wouldn't be great in 2017 either...

And I'm a fairly young man talking like this. Got to give the old schoolers their props. They were meaner and more competitive in those days. I don't like how soft the game has become now days. Too much politics. Those were the days where everybody just played for the love of the game.

Again, you guys totally missed the point.  This thread wasn't "if so and so had been born in 1990 and had the same technology afforded to them"
The thread was about if you took 1970's Jerry Eckwood and put him on today's field.  Totally different.  You guys are grasping as hard as you can to find faults because I made a very point blank statement. 

If you back to the future this biatch and grabbed Mr. 1965 All Madden Defensive End he wouldn't even make an NFL roster today.  Simple as that. 

And who said players today are bigger and not faster?  That's the dumbest post of the year. 

[Pork Twain]

Again, you guys totally missed the point.  This thread wasn't "if so and so had been born in 1990 and had the same technology afforded to them"
The thread was about if you took 1970's Jerry Eckwood and put him on today's field.  Totally different.  You guys are grasping as hard as you can to find faults because I made a very point blank statement. 

If you back to the future this biatch and grabbed Mr. 1965 All Madden Defensive End he wouldn't even make an NFL roster today.  Simple as that. 

And who said players today are bigger and not faster?  That's the dumbest post of the year. 

If you continually have to tell everyone that they are missing the point, maybe it is not them...

[Soooie21]

If you continually have to tell everyone that they are missing the point, maybe it is not them...

A great player can play during any era..

[hog.goblin]

Again, you guys totally missed the point.  This thread wasn't "if so and so had been born in 1990 and had the same technology afforded to them"

No, it's understood by everyone except you that you can't take a player out of his era, assume no changes to his surroundings and opportunities, and plug him into this era.  That would be a pointless discussion limited to to 10 and 15 year blocks of time.

The rest of us are having the meangingful discussion.

[ballhogger]

Depends on the Offense

Pro Style

QB-Ryan Mallett
TB- Darren McFadden
FB-Peyton Hillis
TE-Hunter Henrey
WR1- Gregg Childs (pre Knee Injury)
WR2- Lance Alworth
WR3-Jarrius Wright or Cobi Hammilton
LT- Jason Peters
LG-Burlsworth
C-Luigs
RG-Ragnow
RT-Shawn Andrews

Read Option Spread

QB-Matt Jones
TB- Darren McFadden
FB-Peyton Hillis
TE-Hunter Henrey
WR1- Gregg Childs (pre Knee Injury)
WR2- Lance Alworth
WR3-Joe Adams (for wildcat motion and bubbles ect...)
LT- Jason Peters
LG-Burlsworth
C-Luigs
RG-Ragnow
RT-Shawn Andrews

[ballhogger]

+1, As a matter of fact some of those same players he's talking about that would be no good today would probably be even better if they used the same training and technology that we have today...

For example if Dick Butkus ran a 4.8 in those days he would probably run at 4.6 or better today. If Gale Sayers ran a 4.6 in those days he would probably run a 4.4 today. And I don't even want to talk about Jim Brown. That wouldn't even be fair. He would be Bo Jackson before Bo Jackson. I'm guessing Bo Jackson wouldn't be great in 2017 either...

And I'm a fairly young man talking like this. Got to give the old schoolers their props. They were meaner and more competitive in those days. I don't like how soft the game has become now days. Too much politics. Those were the days where everybody just played for the love of the game.

Lance Allworth would probably Run a 4.4 Dan Hampton would weigh 290+, and you are right Jim Brown would be better than Bo physically.  Who knows?

[ballhogger]

Here is my D

DE - Billy Ray Smith Jr.
DT - Philon/ Flowers not sure who was more productive but we had a historically good D that year and they were part of it.  When they left we sucked.
DT - Dan Hampton
DE - Jamal Anderson
OLB - Martrell Speight
MLB - Jermaine Petty
OLB - Quinten Caver
CB - David Barrett
CB - Chris Houston/Batman Carroll-more talented but I think Chris Houston was better production wise
S - Steve Atwater
S - Ken Hamlin

[NaturalStateReb]

lol Dick Butkus wouldn't be relevant now either. 

You figure that if a kid named Dick Buttkiss can survive adolescence, he's going to be mean as hell during any era.

[LZH]

Those were the days where everybody just played for the love of the game.

Yep. Many players in those days had square jobs in the off season.

[Soooie21]

If I can get Alworth in there somewhere, maybe have him at WR and Joe at PR then I'm with you.  This is the best offense, with little argument.

An NFL Hall Of Fame player has to be in the lineup...otherwise this is a good group..

[Youngsta71701]

Again, you guys totally missed the point.  This thread wasn't "if so and so had been born in 1990 and had the same technology afforded to them"
The thread was about if you took 1970's Jerry Eckwood and put him on today's field.  Totally different.  You guys are grasping as hard as you can to find faults because I made a very point blank statement. 

If you back to the future this biatch and grabbed Mr. 1965 All Madden Defensive End he wouldn't even make an NFL roster today.  Simple as that. 

And who said players today are bigger and not faster?  That's the dumbest post of the year.

The OP didn't bring any of this stuff up in the thread or his original post. You did.
The only thing he did was name his All Hog team for the skilled positions on offense.

[Youngsta71701]

A great player can play during any era..

This is the point...

[Hogs run wild]

One of our best Corners that not many are putting on their team is Ryan Pulley.

[Youngsta71701]

One of our best Corners that not many are putting on their team is Ryan Pulley.

He definitely has the potential but he's still telling his story.

[al_pigcino]

The rest of us are having the meangingful discussion.

In the wrong direction.  Your all 1990+ Razorback team would absolutely own the 1900-1989 team.  Sorry, athletes have evolved since you guys were in school.  It happens.  Just because someone played "mean" in the 50's doesn't make them a match for today's athlete. 

[Pork Twain]

In the wrong direction.  Your all 1990+ Razorback team would absolutely own the 1900-1989 team.  Sorry, athletes have evolved since you guys were in school.  It happens.  Just because someone played "mean" in the 50's doesn't make them a match for today's athlete. 

Just stop...  Nobody cares about your flawed logic, let the adults talk.

[al_pigcino]

Because only your opinion matters? 

[Jackrabbit Hog]

Because only your opinion matters?

No, they all matter.  And I DO understand what you are saying; I just disagree with it to a certain extent.  If I understand you correctly, you are saying you couldn't take a typical player from 1965, keep him exactly as that player (size, speed, etc.), plug him into today's game and expect him to be a star.  I think there is some logic to that, especially along the two interior lines.  I can recall reading the game programs in the early '70s at Hog games and seeing our offensive linemen at 6'2", 225 lb.  Back then that was good size.  Today, of course it's not and that 225 lb.'er would get manhandled by a DT that outweighed him by 80 lbs.  So I get that.

But most of the skill position players you've cited - specifically Jim Brown, Gale Sayers and pre-injury Jerry Eckwood - would all be stars today at the size and speed they had when they played.  At least that's my opinion.  All had attributes that are still prized in today's game.

And yes, it's a different argument when you consider the nutrition, technology, etc. and the effect it would have had on the '60s players had they been born 50 years later.  It makes it an apples to oranges argument. 

[Youngsta71701]

No, they all matter.  And I DO understand what you are saying; I just disagree with it to a certain extent.  If I understand you correctly, you are saying you couldn't take a typical player from 1965, keep him exactly as that player (size, speed, etc.), plug him into today's game and expect him to be a star.  I think there is some logic to that, especially along the two interior lines.  I can recall reading the game programs in the early '70s at Hog games and seeing our offensive linemen at 6'2", 225 lb.  Back then that was good size.  Today, of course it's not and that 225 lb.'er would get manhandled by a DT that outweighed him by 80 lbs.  So I get that.

But most of the skill position players you've cited - specifically Jim Brown, Gale Sayers and pre-injury Jerry Eckwood - would all be stars today at the size and speed they had when they played.  At least that's my opinion.  All had attributes that are still prized in today's game.

And yes, it's a different argument when you consider the nutrition, technology, etc. and the effect it would have had on the '60s players had they been born 50 years later.  It makes it an apples to oranges argument.

In the trenches he may have a point. But at the skilled positions his logic doesn't make any sense. A lot of the skilled position players throughout history have been bigger and smaller or faster and slower than others. Like I said earlier. Bo Jackson was 6'1 and between 225 and 230 and ran a 4.12. He would have been great in any era. Also the Eagles had a receiver that was about 6'7 and most receivers today are between 5'10 and 6'6. If your a player your a player.