If there was a BCS title in 1964, would Arkansas have beaten Alabama?

[Ben]

Just a question i like to ask among both sides. What do guys think?

[Rison Razor Hog]

I have no real frame of reference since this was before my time, but as a homer, of course I think Arkansas takes it all 17-0! WPS!

[Count De Money]

If same criteria as today, Arkansas beat Nebraska and Texas beat Alabama.  Arkansas would be playing Texas for BCS - not bama

[SquidBilly]

If you use just results against common opponent which is all you can really do now then yes we were better than them.

[Ben]

If same criteria as today, Arkansas beat Nebraska and Texas beat Alabama.  Arkansas would be playing Texas for BCS - not bama

Huh? Those were bowl games after the reg season. The BCS way would have taken the top 2 teams at the end of the regular season

[redeye]

Before my time too and so I don't really know.  But Nebraska was physically bigger then Arkansas and we still beat them.  Alabama lost to a team we beat, so I think you have to say the answer is yes.

If not for the bias among AP voters, we wouldn't be asking this question today.  I still can't believe Arkansas had a 22 game win streak and only spent a total of 1 week as the #1 team in the AP during the span.

[Jackrabbit Hog]

Freddie Marshall to Bobby Crockett for a diving touchdown catch in the game's final minute.  Hogs win, 20-17. 

And 20-17 was considered a pretty high scoring game back then.

[Sed76]

Considering our luck and overall record against Alabama I say a heartbreaking loss.

[Sir Oinksalot]

...would Alabama have beaten Arkansas a second time this year with the way our
offense was playing at the end and the way BA was playing...?


NO !

[urkillnmesmalls]

I'm always astounded when I look back at our record that season.  5 straight shutouts, and only 7 pts. to Nebraska.  So...we gave up 7 points total in our last 6 games.  That's crazy!   

[Pork Twain]

Huh? Those were bowl games after the reg season. The BCS way would have taken the top 2 teams at the end of the regular season

BCS alone is so three years ago

[lumphog]

HAIL YEA!!!!!!

[SamBuckhart]

I'm always astounded when I look back at our record that season.  5 straight shutouts, and only 7 pts. to Nebraska.  So...we gave up 7 points total in our last 6 games.  That's crazy!   

Yes. Wonder what the record is for consecutive shutouts in NCAA? Fewest average points allowed per game? WOOO PIG!

[Wooderson]

Considering our luck and overall record against Alabama I say a heartbreaking loss.

You realize that Arkansas/Bama was pretty even until this last win streak by Bama.

[Locutus_of_Boar]

Based on the final AP rankings that year:

#3 Notre Dame 9-1 vs #2 Arkansas 10-0 in the Cotton Bowl
#4 Michigan 8-1 vs #1 Alabama 10-0 in the Orange Bowl

Two big and slow Midwestern teams fall easily in the semis.

#2 Arkansas 11-0 vs @1 Alabama 11-0 in the finals in Arizona.

The secret to Bama was that Namath only three 5 TD passes in 1964 and barely rushed.  Bama was good and their defense would have been tough but fact is Arkansas had already beaten the better team as the actual Orange Bowl proved.  Arkansas shut out the final five opponents in 1964 and had the advantage in special teams.

There is no way to ever know for sure but it could have been Frank's greatest day.

[Sed76]

You realize that Arkansas/Bama was pretty even until this last win streak by Bama.

Alabama was 2 and 0 against us before we joined the conference if I remember right and that is the time frame being discussed.

[Bacons Rebellion]

Play the game 10 times, we win five and lose 5. Play the Orange Bowl 10 times, Texas wins 5, Alabama wins 5. We play 1964 Texas 10 times, we win 5, Texas wins 5.

Remember we only beat Texas because we stopped them on their two-point conversion.

Texas only beat Alabama because they stopped them on 4th and inches at the goal line in the 4th quarter.

[KennyForAD]

The simple truth:  In the history of major college football, there have been two champions, and only two:  Ohio State, and Bama.  All the other years there was no championship, only opinions. 

[BearsBisonsBoars]

The simple truth:  In the history of major college football, there have been two champions, and only two:  Ohio State, and Bama.  All the other years there was no championship, only opinions.

So edgy.

The four team playoff is still opinion. Or do you really think MSU was really the fourth best team in CFB?

[KennyForAD]

So edgy.

The four team playoff is still opinion. Or do you really think MSU was really the fourth best team in CFB?

You miss the boat.  A four team playoff is a championship.  A championship produces... a champion.

Arkansas does not have a championship.  Texas does not have a championship.  Notre Dame does not.  Neither does USC.  Arkansas was twice recognized as no. 1 in opinion polls, 64, and 77.  So what?  Other teams were also voted no. 1 in other opinion polls those years.  Meaningless.  2 Champions: Bama and OSU.  That's it.

You seem to be looking for the "best" team.  The "best" doesn't exist.  Was Villanova better than Georgtown when they won the CHAMPIONSHIP?  Nope. They lost to Georgetown 3 times that season.  No one cares.  They lost the Big East Championship, but they won the NCAA Championship.

Best does not equal champion.  Best is a myth.

Opinion polls produce... opinions.   

[Torqued pork]

Yes. Wonder what the record is for consecutive shutouts in NCAA? Fewest average points allowed per game? WOOO PIG!

Tennessee had 17 consecutive shutouts under Bob Neyland. I'm not positive if that's the record, though.

[bob slydell]

Based on the final AP rankings that year:

#3 Notre Dame 9-1 vs #2 Arkansas 10-0 in the Cotton Bowl
#4 Michigan 8-1 vs #1 Alabama 10-0 in the Orange Bowl

Two big and slow Midwestern teams fall easily in the semis.

#2 Arkansas 11-0 vs @1 Alabama 11-0 in the finals in Arizona.

The secret to Bama was that Namath only three 5 TD passes in 1964 and barely rushed.  Bama was good and their defense would have been tough but fact is Arkansas had already beaten the better team as the actual Orange Bowl proved.  Arkansas shut out the final five opponents in 1964 and had the advantage in special teams.

There is no way to ever know for sure but it could have been Frank's greatest day.

The question was about the BCS not the CFP. BCS CG would have most likely been between #1 Bama and #2 Arkansas. Mich and ND wouldn't have been involved.

[Bacons Rebellion]

...
#2 Arkansas 11-0 vs @1 Alabama 11-0 in the finals in Arizona.

...

I think not. The biggest stadium in Arizona had 30,000 seats in 1964. Let's play in New Orleans.

[gmarv]

of course my hogs would of won,why would I ever think otherwise ?

[MJ2]

Probably not.   If you recall the AR record vs SEC teams in bowl games was not very good, so barring a miracle (which could have happened), AL likely wins.

Hogs were 4-11-1 vs SEC in bowl games prior to joining the league.

[Exit Pursued by a Boar]

If same criteria as today, Arkansas beat Nebraska and Texas beat Alabama.  Arkansas would be playing Texas for BCS - not bama

Arkansas beat Texas too that year.

EFBAB

[DeltaBoy]

20-17 Hogs.

[gmarv]

Probably not.   If you recall the AR record vs SEC teams in bowl games was not very good, so barring a miracle (which could have happened), AL likely wins.

that team of ours in 64 was good enough to not need a miracle.

[WizardofhOgZ]

You realize that Arkansas/Bama was pretty even until this last win streak by Bama Saban.

To be more specific . . .

[WizardofhOgZ]

There is no way to ever know for sure but it could have been Frank's greatest day.

It WAS . . . 

[code red]

Face Palm.....sigh.

[WizardofhOgZ]

The simple truth:  In the history of major college football, there have been two champions, and only two:  Ohio State, and Bama.  All the other years there was no championship, only opinions.

Not exactly true - although I understand where you're coming from.

There have been Champions for decades in College Football.  But before the BCS era, that word was always preceeded by another word: "mythical".

But, to your point (and, actually, to mine as well!), that's one of the reasons I get SO chapped when today's fans (30-40 year olds) try and lecture ME about the "illegitimacy" of our 1964 Championship.  "After all" they will tell me "the final AP poll has Bama #1".

Yes, it does.  But it also took place before ALL the games were played.  And - as noted - there is NO official championship (well, TODAY there is; but not back then).  ALL championships were "mythical" and the ones we won were as valid as the AP and UPI.  But out CLAIM was even better, because we (1) were the ONLY team to finish undefeated and untied that year; and (2) Alabama's only loss came to Texas, a team we beat at their place (and THEIR only loss of the season).

So our MYTHICAL claim is 100% valid.

[WizardofhOgZ]

The premise of this thread is something I've thought about several times over the past decades.  The short answer, of course, is that we'll never know.

But I think an objective "odds maker" would probably have us as a 1 or 2 point favorite on a neutral field.  My reason for saying that is that odds makers don't give a rip about polls, etc.   They look at performance on the field.  And there wasn't a lot to separate those two teams.  Both were excellent teams led by premiere coaches.  However, Arkansas proved its mettle against two elite and very physical teams - Texas and Nebraska.  They were far from dominant in either game; but they found a way to win - late - in both.  That's an intangible that's hard to quantify, but it separates Champions from "very good" teams.

Bama, on the other hand, failed in their effort to win a close game against similar quality (Texas).  For that reason, I'd make Arkansas a very slight favorite.  I'd expect a 14-7 type score.

[Cinco de Hogo]

Normally I wouldn't say we would beat Bama on a stage that big but knowing the character of that team and the amazing amount of success they have had as individuals I'm gonna give the nod to Arkansas.  A team of destiny!

[SuperSid4Ever]

Huh? Those were bowl games after the reg season. The BCS way would have taken the top 2 teams at the end of the regular season

If those were the top four ranked teams in the country, it is a valid point, at least in the national playoff system.

In the BCS system, it would have ended up being AR and AL.

And I think Bear Bryant would have found a way to win it.

[Biggus Piggus]

Just a question i like to ask among both sides. What do guys think?

Would Alabama have been in the title game? Probably not. Would have lost in the semis.

[Vantage 8 dude]

Alabama had the advantage at QB...

Perhaps; then again with that defense the Hogs had (shut outs the last five games of the season) we were a 'Bama defense before 'Bama really had a defense (at least measured in today's terms).

[HamIAm]

Does it matter? We won all of our games, including against a common opponent, and they didn't. If you want to start arguing that Bama would have won a head to head with us, then I can pull up some teams that would theoretically have beaten Bama in a head to head. Oh, wait, I don't have to because it already happened and it wasn't theoretical.

[Ben]

You miss the boat.  A four team playoff is a championship.  A championship produces... a champion.

Arkansas does not have a championship.  Texas does not have a championship.  Notre Dame does not.  Neither does USC.  Arkansas was twice recognized as no. 1 in opinion polls, 64, and 77.  So what?  Other teams were also voted no. 1 in other opinion polls those years.  Meaningless.  2 Champions: Bama and OSU.  That's it.

You seem to be looking for the "best" team.  The "best" doesn't exist.  Was Villanova better than Georgtown when they won the CHAMPIONSHIP?  Nope. They lost to Georgetown 3 times that season.  No one cares.  They lost the Big East Championship, but they won the NCAA Championship.

Best does not equal champion.  Best is a myth.

Opinion polls produce... opinions.

I love this....love it.... Permission to borrow this? Lol

But thats why ideally i want a playoff with all conference champions and few at larges. 16 teams.
Its a true FBS playoff when all conferences are represented. Those autobids also neutralize opinion and bias. With the atlarges, they would be top 10 teams that would likely play in new years bowls.


But what you said is spot on and probably the best thing i have ever seen on hogville

[Ben]

Would Alabama have been in the title game? Probably not. Would have lost in the semis.

If it was a playoff they would hae played michigan and arkansas would have notre dame. Bcs though, itd be bama and arkansas

[DLUXHOG]

Yes, no doubt or debate about it..................

[Ben]

I do wonder if alabama was even on their full game vs texas. Having already been awarded the title by the two biggest polls, they probably saw texas as just a exhibition

[12247]

I am old enough to remember and my memory is that Arkansas had two things the others didn't.  Our D was mighty fast and gang tackled their butts off for the entire game.  We were fast on D but likely smaller than any of the other 3 teams.  We weren't great on O but rarely made a mistake and the kicking and special teams were very good.  We also played the odds and conservative using our kicking game to keep us out of trouble.  There wasn't a quitter or anyone taking off plays on the team. 

Talent wise, we were likely the worst of the four teams.

[Iwastherein1969]

the Hog defenses in that part of Frank's years as coach were not that big, but quick and fleet afoot...Frank believed in putting most of your best athletes on defense

[ZERO]

So edgy.

The four team playoff is still opinion. Or do you really think MSU was really the fourth best team in CFB?

He kind of has a point. The playoff method is tried-and-true, and it's kind of embarrassing that 2014 was the year it was implemented in CFB. HS football has playoffs. Division III CFB has a playoff. Division II CFB has a playoff. Division I-FCS CFB has a playoff. The NFL has a playoff. Our league of football was basically the only one not using the standard method of selecting a championship and people still want to act like even the BCS was a valid basis for selecting a champion; let alone back when the champions were selected before every game was even played. You can't correctly ascertain which team would beat every other one of the 129 or whatever FBS teams in the best 2/3, so every method is just opinion. Playoffs are just more accurate.

I'm not saying history should be rewritten or ignored. After all, the blue-bloods back in the 1950s are largely still the same powers as today, so it's not as if history has nothing to teach us. But the game of football has changed immensely over the past several decade. Plus, I'm tired of talking about a "championship" we won a small piece of by a defunct selector over 50 years ago. I'm tired of hearing about Alabama's 16-20 or whatever number of championships - the majority of which were won decades ago. I can't wait for enough playoff history to occur so we can stop acting like football during segregation or when there was no official champion can be the measuring stick for a program's success.

[LZH]

Arkansas does not have a championship.

A couple of years ago I questioned the validity of Arkansas' 1964 championship, because I had never heard of the football writer's poll, or whatever it is/was. Everyone on here that was born in the mid fifties and beyond totally lost their minds.....

[urkillnmesmalls]

A couple of years ago I questioned the validity of Arkansas' 1964 championship, because I had never heard of the football writer's poll, or whatever it is/was. Everyone on here that was born in the mid fifties and beyond totally lost their minds.....

I can say for a fact that Bama doesn't even question it at all.  It's just matter of fact to them that they won the NC that season, and they think it's comical that Arkansas makes any claim to it.  Seriously...that's their attitude.  To them...it's black and white. 

I think at times our fans don't understand how smug Bama fans are.  I keep hearing about how well they were treated in Tuscaloosa and how their fans get a bad rep, but I'm not sure that they realize that at least half of that comes from the angle of disguised patronizing.  They're nice, because they don't perceive a threat.  We beat them a few times...and then I'd like to hear our fans' viewpoints.   

Bama's argument is that bowl games were just exhibitions back then, and the evidence is that Notre Dame didn't even participate in bowl games.  I think it was the following season that the bowl games were taken into consideration prior to the AP vote, correct?   

We have every right to proclaim that we were the best team that year, but there are lots of years when other teams could make that claim to the "mythical" championship.  I can GUARANTEE you that if Bama were in our shoes in '78, they'd have a NC banner somewhere on campus for it. 

I don't think it's a big deal, and I have no issue with Arkansas claiming it, because Bama claims it in some years that are outlandish.     

[KennyForAD]

I love this....love it.... Permission to borrow this? Lol

But thats why ideally i want a playoff with all conference champions and few at larges. 16 teams.
Its a true FBS playoff when all conferences are represented. Those autobids also neutralize opinion and bias. With the atlarges, they would be top 10 teams that would likely play in new years bowls.


But what you said is spot on and probably the best thing i have ever seen on hogville

I finally got something right!  Haha.  Thx. 

[EastexHawg]

Yes. Wonder what the record is for consecutive shutouts in NCAA? Fewest average points allowed per game? WOOO PIG!

I think one year Tennessee shut out every opponent.  Bear Bryant's 1961 team hardly allowed anything...I think maybe 25 points in 11 games.

[WizardofhOgZ]

I think one year Tennessee shut out every opponent.  Bear Bryant's 1961 team hardly allowed anything...I think maybe 25 points in 11 games.

25 points is correct, and we got our share in a 10-3 loss in the Sugar Bowl.  First time the two teams had ever played one another.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1961_Alabama_Crimson_Tide_football_team

Here's a nice recap of the Sugar Bowl game.  I was just a bit too young to care about the game, but I do remember my father bemoaning a pass to Alworth in the EZ that could have tied the game.  Never saw video of it, but always reminds me of how I felt years later when Steve Atwater dropped that interception in the EZ at Miami.

Interesting note about the "game ball" at the end of the game.

https://www.allstatesugarbowl.org/site138.php