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Durham and Beard are the answer at pg

Started by intelligence, December 15, 2014, 08:28:29 pm

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intelligence

I thought we played exceptional well with beard and Durham on the floor. I think its time for Durham to supplant Madden at the point and then madden and bell can share minutes at the 2. Madden just can't get it done, especially now that he's hurt

nextlevel

Quote from: intelligence on December 15, 2014, 08:28:29 pm
I thought we played exceptional well with beard and Durham on the floor. I think its time for Durham to supplant Madden at the point and then madden and bell can share minutes at the 2. Madden just can't get it done, especially now that he's hurt

Madden shouldn't be stealing any of Bell or Babb's minutes.

You overvalue the role of a "PG" in the motion offense.
Quote from: GUVHOG on March 07, 2011, 11:26:42 am
I'll make a prediction: If BCG were to get the Tennessee job, Calipari will be fired from UK within 2 years because from the 2013-2014 season on, Tennessee will own the SEC East until BCG moves on or retires.

ell oh ell

 

Danny J


lefty08

Finally a thread that doesn't talk about Clemson or Madden sucking, and it's an original thought
Re: So far the UC press conference is hilarious   Reply
Losing gracefully isn't taught in second-tier programs. See Arkansas, Cincinnati, et al.
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-Blu

Quote from: intelligence on December 15, 2014, 08:28:29 pm
I thought we played exceptional well with beard and Durham on the floor. I think its time for Durham to supplant Madden at the point and then madden and bell can share minutes at the 2. Madden just can't get it done, especially now that he's hurt

Madden is hurt?  Where'd you see that at?

TomBigBeeHog

Quote from: intelligence on December 15, 2014, 08:28:29 pm
I thought we played exceptional well with beard and Durham on the floor. I think its time for Durham to supplant Madden at the point and then madden and bell can share minutes at the 2. Madden just can't get it done, especially now that he's hurt

How can Madden play the 2 if he's hurt?
I spent most of my life drankin', gamblin', and chasing women, the rest I just wasted.

intelligence

Quote from: -Blu on December 15, 2014, 09:06:48 pm
Madden is hurt?  Where'd you see that at?

You seen him twist his knee earlier this year right? he's been noticeably limping since then. playing through an injury is what i'm speculating.

Rawker

Quote from: lefty08 on December 15, 2014, 09:06:34 pm
Finally a thread that doesn't talk about Clemson or Madden sucking, and it's an original thought

No offense to intelligence or you, but "I think its time for Durham to supplant Madden at the point" is an original thought?  The only one that hasn't been saying that is maybe CMA, and that's coming from a proven CMA fanboy.  I just think he has an unreasonable soft spot for juniors and seniors who I personally think should be riding the pine more, and his hook is way too quick for people that make a HUGE difference in a game, like Kingsley and Watkins.  I still don't believe Durham and Beard will be in as much as they should this season, but if they are it would be a very welcome relief.  Durham just needs PT to minimize his mistakes.  He can run this show!

lefty08

Quote from: Rawker on December 16, 2014, 01:02:58 am
No offense to intelligence or you, but "I think its time for Durham to supplant Madden at the point" is an original thought?  The only one that hasn't been saying that is maybe CMA, and that's coming from a proven CMA fanboy.  I just think he has an unreasonable soft spot for juniors and seniors who I personally think should be riding the pine more, and his hook is way too quick for people that make a HUGE difference in a game, like Kingsley and Watkins.  I still don't believe Durham and Beard will be in as much as they should this season, but if they are it would be a very welcome relief.  Durham just needs PT to minimize his mistakes.  He can run this show!

You get the award for finding sarcasm on hogville
Re: So far the UC press conference is hilarious   Reply
Losing gracefully isn't taught in second-tier programs. See Arkansas, Cincinnati, et al.
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Youngsta71701

Quote from: nextlevel on December 15, 2014, 08:30:20 pm
Madden shouldn't be stealing any of Bell or Babb's minutes.

You overvalue the role of a "PG" in the motion offense.

The role of a "PG" can never be overvalued no matter what kind of offense you run.
"The more things change the more they stay the same"

The_Iceman

Quote from: Youngsta71701 on December 16, 2014, 08:18:17 am
The role of a "PG" can never be overvalued no matter what kind of offense you run.

Just look at how much better the offense ran with Durham out there, as opposed to the Black Hole.

Hogimus Prime

Madden is not bad if he can play as a combo guard/slasher.  Madden is a good spot up shooter and can drive to the basket easier with a 2guard on him.

PonderinHog

Quote from: Hogimus Prime on December 16, 2014, 09:25:56 am
Madden is not bad if he can play as a combo guard/slasher.  Madden is a good spot up shooter and can drive to the basket easier with a 2guard on him.
And he's a very reliable free throw shooter.

 

Hawg Red

Quote from: Youngsta71701 on December 16, 2014, 08:18:17 am
The role of a "PG" can never be overvalued no matter what kind of offense you run.

Hogimus Prime

Quote from: PonderinHog on December 16, 2014, 09:27:05 am
And he's a very reliable free throw shooter.

That too.  He's a good player as long as he doesn't have to run/setup the offense.

cbhawg03

Quote from: nextlevel on December 15, 2014, 08:30:20 pm
Madden shouldn't be stealing any of Bell or Babb's minutes.


Quote from: intelligence on December 15, 2014, 08:28:29 pm
I thought we played exceptional well with beard and Durham on the floor. I think its time for Durham to supplant Madden at the point and then madden and bell can share minutes at the 2. Madden just can't get it done, especially now that he's hurt

These. Just from what I have seen and how it seems though, it doesn't matter if Durham or Beard are on the court when Madden is on the court, Madden still becomes the pg for some reason. Everybody just defers to him or he makes sure that he runs the show for some reason and he ends up controlling the show and well we all know what happens.

PonderinHog

Quote from: Hogimus Prime on December 16, 2014, 09:34:17 am
That too.  He's a good player as long as he doesn't have to run/setup the offense.
But in order to draw fouls he'll will need to handle the ball, say more than a spot up shooter like Bell.  Not disagreeing with you, just trying to "justify" KM having the ball at certain points in the hypothetical game.  Does that make sense?

Hogimus Prime

Quote from: PonderinHog on December 16, 2014, 09:38:59 am
But in order to draw fouls he'll will need to handle the ball, say more than a spot up shooter like Bell.  Not disagreeing with you, just trying to "justify" KM having the ball at certain points in the hypothetical game.  Does that make sense?

I get what you're saying, but with Bell out there it's one less guard that can push it in transition. I guess it's giving up spot up shooting when Bell is out and ballhandler when Madden is out.

IMO Bell and Madden don't fit very well if Madden is at the point, but if Madden is at the 3 with Bell and Beard/Durham at the point then its a good fit.


Marshfieldhog

Madden needs to be a 3, similar to like a Ron Huery or sonny weems. Madden needs to not be the PG, the next 4 games needs to be spent transitioning Beard and Durham to the PG slot with Watkins filling in if they are struggling.

azhog10

We are so quick to dump a kid, award another kid, and then dump on him next time he plays bad. I remember so many people saying Babb should get Durhams minutes earlier in the season. Now Durham deserves Ky's minutes and Ky should take mop up duty roles at the 2 or 3 spot. Only on hogville.

GuvHog

Quote from: Hogimus Prime on December 16, 2014, 10:05:03 am
I get what you're saying, but with Bell out there it's one less guard that can push it in transition. I guess it's giving up spot up shooting when Bell is out and ballhandler when Madden is out.

IMO Bell and Madden don't fit very well if Madden is at the point, but if Madden is at the 3 with Bell and Beard/Durham at the point then its a good fit.



I don't see Madden ever replacing Qualls at the 3 spot in the starting lineup.
Bleeding Razorback Red Since Birth!!!

The_Iceman

Quote from: Hogimus Prime on December 16, 2014, 10:05:03 am
I get what you're saying, but with Bell out there it's one less guard that can push it in transition. I guess it's giving up spot up shooting when Bell is out and ballhandler when Madden is out.

IMO Bell and Madden don't fit very well if Madden is at the point, but if Madden is at the 3 with Bell and Beard/Durham at the point then its a good fit.

It should be:

Durham / Beard
Madden / Bell (interchangeable in terms of starting)
Qualls / Watkins

Then have Babb as the next one in at any of those spots.

Hogimus Prime

Quote from: The_Iceman on December 16, 2014, 03:02:25 pm
It should be:

Durham / Beard
Madden / Bell (interchangeable in terms of starting)
Qualls / Watkins

Then have Babb as the next one in at any of those spots.

I agree

Danny J

Quote from: azhog10 on December 16, 2014, 02:30:51 pm
We are so quick to dump a kid, award another kid, and then dump on him next time he plays bad. I remember so many people saying Babb should get Durhams minutes earlier in the season. Now Durham deserves Ky's minutes and Ky should take mop up duty roles at the 2 or 3 spot. Only on hogville.
I understand what you are saying and you are right however in this case(talking about Madden) he has been at Arkansas, under one coach the entire time, for 3.33 years. If he hasn't figured it out by now then it isn't going to happen. That is why Durham and Beard should get a longer leash. At least try and come to a conclusion as to whether or not they can figure it out.

 

lefty08

Quote from: Danny J on December 16, 2014, 04:29:18 pm
I understand what you are saying and you are right however in this case(talking about Madden) he has been at Arkansas, under one coach the entire time, for 3.33 years. If he hasn't figured it out by now then it isn't going to happen. That is why Durham and Beard should get a longer leash. At least try and come to a conclusion as to whether or not they can figure it out.

Also completely forgotten was the great run he had last year. We forget how everyone was excited for the way he played, thinking he had turned the corner, then 7 games into the next year he is horrible. Overreaction is a staple on this site for sure
Re: So far the UC press conference is hilarious   Reply
Losing gracefully isn't taught in second-tier programs. See Arkansas, Cincinnati, et al.
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mhuff

December 16, 2014, 07:41:10 pm #25 Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 08:20:34 pm by mhuff
Quote from: lefty08 on December 16, 2014, 06:59:03 pm
Also completely forgotten was the great run he had last year. We forget how everyone was excited for the way he played, thinking he had turned the corner, then 7 games into the next year he is horrible. Overreaction is a staple on this site for sure

Lefty, unfortunately players have good nights and bad nights. We remember the good nights instead of looking at the full years work to date. Bell had some  good nights last year, but he had the lowest shooting % on the team for the year.....

The reason we won the Dayton game was running the ball through the middle first before shooting outside. Portis wore them out and made some good passes. The second half Madden did not run the ball through the middle as much and we got outscored. If you want to win, the ball goes inside first before shooting outside. Although they are playing well this year, look at Quall' and Bell's offensive stats for the last game. Then ask yourself the question...... Would we have won the game if we hadn't gone inside to Portis the first half? Bell and Qualls are having good seasons; however, you are not going to have good shooting nights every game. Go inside and get a lead and press hard the last five minutes of the half and extend a lead. The game can be won in the first half instead of playing catch up ball. You have to be aggressive.

What I don't understand about Madden is his inability to make good things happen at the end of a game. His decision making is horrible. I do wish he was shooting all the FT's at the end of games.....however, I just want people handling the ball that make good decisions.

Danny J

Quote from: mhuff on December 16, 2014, 07:41:10 pm

What I don't understand about Madden is his inability to make good things happen at the end of a game. His decision making is horrible. I do wish he was shooting all the FT's at the end of games.....however, I just want people handling the ball that make good decisions.
Agree 100%. In close game situations late he shouldn't be on the court except in obvious fouling situations. In a game where it is tied or we are down then that is another story.

latrops

Quote from: lefty08 on December 16, 2014, 06:59:03 pm
Also completely forgotten was the great run he had last year. We forget how everyone was excited for the way he played, thinking he had turned the corner, then 7 games into the next year he is horrible. Overreaction is a staple on this site for sure

Geez, take away one minute and the vibe toward Madden is completely different right now.  He hasn't played great this season, but he hasn't been a disaster either...except for that one bad minute at Clemson.  He has been a very good player for us in the past...he probably will be again as the season progresses.  Just need to be careful about his role in late game situations as his willingness has vastly exceeded his effectiveness.

mhuff

Quote from: latrops on December 16, 2014, 08:18:49 pm
Geez, take away one minute and the vibe toward Madden is completely different right now.  He hasn't played great this season, but he hasn't been a disaster either...except for that one bad minute at Clemson.  He has been a very good player for us in the past...he probably will be again as the season progresses.  Just need to be careful about his role in late game situations as his willingness has vastly exceeded his effectiveness.

If you look at the stats, Madden is not having a bad year, he is shooting about 40% from 3 point land.  However, unless it is shooting FT's, he has not fared well with the ball in his hands at crunch time. He's shooting about 90% from the FT line. I am a Razorback fan first and a Madden fan second. There are things he needed to do from the start of his career that he never changed. His penetration is not good against good teams. He has needed to stop and shoot or pass instead of throwing up bad ,bad shots. He has been a liability in that regard. I hope he finally learns that he does not have the skill to drive all the way to the basket against good teams. He will upgrade his stock and help the team if he will pass instead of dribble. It doesn't help anyone but the opposite team when you turn it over. They all need to pass faster and hit the middle.

PonderinHog

Quote from: mhuff on December 16, 2014, 08:31:33 pm
If you look at the stats, Madden is not having a bad year, he is shooting about 40% from 3 point land.  However, unless it is shooting FT's, he has not fared well with the ball in his hands at crunch time. He's shooting about 90% from the FT line. I am a Razorback fan first and a Madden fan second. There are things he needed to do from the start of his career that he never changed. His penetration is not good against good teams. He has needed to stop and shoot or pass instead of throwing up bad ,bad shots. He has been a liability in that regard. I hope he finally learns that he does not have the skill to drive all the way to the basket against good teams. He will upgrade his stock and help the team if he will pass instead of dribble. It doesn't help anyone but the opposite team when you turn it over. They all need to pass faster and hit the middle.
Sometimes I wonder if BJ Young is still in his head.  There weren't enough basketballs for the both of them in their freshman season.

intelligence

Quote from: latrops on December 16, 2014, 08:18:49 pm
Geez, take away one minute and the vibe toward Madden is completely different right now.  He hasn't played great this season, but he hasn't been a disaster either...except for that one bad minute at Clemson.  He has been a very good player for us in the past...he probably will be again as the season progresses.  Just need to be careful about his role in late game situations as his willingness has vastly exceeded his effectiveness.

He has been a complete and total bust. any other observation is blind optimism and/or homerism IMO. Last season, he did make a few mistakes but he also hit some clutch shots and was a bonafide playmaker for this team. This season, idk WTH he's doing out there, but its hurting us, and i hope he can correct it soon. He's an arkansas guy so i've tried to defend him as much as possible, but at the moment he's been detrimental to the team this season.

mhuff

Quote from: PonderinHog on December 16, 2014, 08:43:13 pm
Sometimes I wonder if BJ Young is still in his head.  There weren't enough basketballs for the both of them in their freshman season.

Ponderin, my thoughts exactly. It was about being big dog...... I did think PJ shot too much ,but I felt like he was trying to carry the team. The people we had inside had stone fingers and couldn't make a point blank shot. But, the stats tell the tale. Even so there is a way to properly play BB, and driving to the basket and trying up bad shots is not it. Unfortunately, they both did too much of this. Too bad we didn't have the inside people.

mhuff

Quote from: PonderinHog on December 16, 2014, 08:43:13 pm
Sometimes I wonder if BJ Young is still in his head.  There weren't enough basketballs for the both of them in their freshman season.

I do agree that we all have a bitter taste in our mouths in regard to the loss and Madden's role. He just needs to change some things to benefit his team, Plus, we are in need of senior leadership. Circle the wagons and get on the same team page.

Hogfaniam

Quote from: latrops on December 16, 2014, 08:18:49 pm
Geez, take away one minute and the vibe toward Madden is completely different right now.  He hasn't played great this season, but he hasn't been a disaster either...except for that one bad minute at Clemson.  He has been a very good player for us in the past...he probably will be again as the season progresses.  Just need to be careful about his role in late game situations as his willingness has vastly exceeded his effectiveness.

Sun 12/7   
@CLEMSON.       M.    Fg-a.         3pt.           Ft.           R.     A.     B.     S.     F.     To.    Pts       
L 68-65 (OT)   31   0-3   .000   0-3   .000   0-0   .000   2   5   0   0   3   5   0
"My dog Sam eats purple flowers"

PonderinHog

Quote from: Hogfaniam on December 16, 2014, 09:41:43 pm
Sun 12/7   
@CLEMSON.       M.    Fg-a.         3pt.           Ft.           R.     A.     B.     S.     F.     To.    Pts       
L 68-65 (OT)   31   0-3   .000   0-3   .000   0-0   .000   2   5   0   0   3   5   0
Well, there's bad and then there's BAD.

azhog10

Quote from: Danny J on December 16, 2014, 04:29:18 pm
I understand what you are saying and you are right however in this case(talking about Madden) he has been at Arkansas, under one coach the entire time, for 3.33 years. If he hasn't figured it out by now then it isn't going to happen. That is why Durham and Beard should get a longer leash. At least try and come to a conclusion as to whether or not they can figure it out.
It was just earlier this season that everyone was talking about how Madden had figured it out. Instead he has one bad game, another game where he was just okay, and now it's time to take all his minutes away. With Durham some where ready to cast him out as a failed JC transfer. My how quick the tide turns.

Pigasaurus

Tony Delk just listed Madden as his #4 PG in the SEC. 
"If I wanted you to know what I was thinking, I would be talking."  Al Bundy

Hogimus Prime

Quote from: GuvHog on December 16, 2014, 02:55:11 pm
I don't see Madden ever replacing Qualls at the 3 spot in the starting lineup.

What does Qualls do better than Madden? 

lefty08

Quote from: Hogimus Prime on December 20, 2014, 12:49:02 pm
What does Qualls do better than Madden?

Leap?
i was gonna say talk noise, but i think its close between the 2 of them

to be fair, qualls is a better long range shooter
Re: So far the UC press conference is hilarious   Reply
Losing gracefully isn't taught in second-tier programs. See Arkansas, Cincinnati, et al.
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Hogimus Prime

Quote from: lefty08 on December 20, 2014, 12:51:07 pm
Leap?
i was gonna say talk noise, but i think its close between the 2 of them

to be fair, qualls is a better long range shooter

Qualls is a better long range shooter but not by much, IMO.

A lot of people say if you move Madden away from the ball and put Durham/Beard at the point, but can't take Bell off the court cause of his shooting, then comes down to Qualls or Madden. 

Qualls is a good 3pt shooter and dunker.  Madden can has a better handle and ft shooter. 

So who's time gets cut?

dsims2k3

Quote from: Hogimus Prime on December 20, 2014, 12:49:02 pm
What does Qualls do better than Madden?
Qualls appears to be stronger and more physical than Madden.  Strength and physicality is a  much needed commodity on the road in the SEC.
Quote from: Boston RedHogs on October 23, 2013, 06:39:15 pm
I am always ready for Hog Ball!

The football season has no bearing on my excitement for basketball season to begin. 

I know I'm in the minority, but I rank Hog basketball above Hog football every day of the week and twice on Sundays. Has a lot to do with the era in which I grew up, but for me personally there is just nothing better than watching the Hogs run up and down the court!
Woo Pig Sooiee!  Can't wait for the season to tip off.  I'm hoping for a much more competitive team this season.

PonderinHog

Quote from: dsims2k3 on December 20, 2014, 02:00:14 pm
Qualls appears to be stronger and more physical than Madden.  Strength and physicality is a  much needed commodity on the road in the SEC.
Kingsley is skronger and more physical than both.  He real skrong.

Danny J

Quote from: azhog10 on December 18, 2014, 02:25:35 pm
It was just earlier this season that everyone was talking about how Madden had figured it out. Instead he has one bad game, another game where he was just okay, and now it's time to take all his minutes away. With Durham some where ready to cast him out as a failed JC transfer. My how quick the tide turns.
I still think he can be useful when he is not trying to do too much. He does things well at times also. The post I made above simply stated I would not have him in the game late if it were in doubt unless it was obvious that the opposing team was looking to foul. I certainly wouldn't want him handling the ball late when we needed to score.

Danny J

Quote from: dsims2k3 on December 20, 2014, 02:00:14 pm
Qualls appears to be stronger and more physical than Madden.  Strength and physicality is a  much needed commodity on the road in the SEC.
He has also made clutch plays late like at Vandy last year with that 3, the dunk against UK and the big rebound late against SMU.

slabrock

Madden averages 5 assists and 9 points a game. Amazing how people think he shouldn't play.

Breems

Why did Madden stop shooting? He was extremely hot from the perimeter at the beginning of last season up until the end of conference play when he stopped pulling the trigger.

Is it just because he's handling the ball more? Is he only a spot-up shooter? Why aren't we getting this guy some shots?
Proud member of the "Left Before Halftime" football club.

Quote from: Breems on January 27, 2011, 08:42:29 pm<br />SCREW VANDERBILT<br />

HSVhogfan2

Madden doesn't seem to understand the flow of the game. He is a very good 3 point shooter if he spots up and gets his feet under him. Not so much off the dribble or heavily contested. His problem is, he will make a couple then take a couple of bad shots, miss and go into a shell. Portis, while not a true post up 4 or 5, can still do enough work down there to draw a double, and is patient enough to pass it back out. That should give Madden another easy 6 pts/per game without playing any more minutes.
"The post you have just read was used with the express written consent of HSVHogfan2."

Veni Sancte Spiritus

Do you wish to rise? Begin by descending. You plan a tower that will pierce the clouds? Lay first the foundation of humility.

azhog10

Thought Durham and Beard were outplayed by Madden yesterday. Does this mean Madden should see more than mop up duty now?

chiefhawg

Tony Delk says that Madden is one of the top 5 point guards in the SEC.

HSVhogfan2

Quote from: azhog10 on December 21, 2014, 04:58:54 pm
Thought Durham and Beard were outplayed by Madden yesterday. Does this mean Madden should see more than mop up duty now?

Madden may be the best talent on the team (I'm talking basketball ability, not athletic ability), he is just a 2 or a 3, not a PG.
"The post you have just read was used with the express written consent of HSVHogfan2."

Veni Sancte Spiritus

Do you wish to rise? Begin by descending. You plan a tower that will pierce the clouds? Lay first the foundation of humility.