Dayton boxscore...

[Swinesong1]

http://www.covers.com/pageLoader/pageLoader.aspx?page=/data/ncb/results/2014-2015/boxscore885496.html

[Wild Bill Hog]

Thank goodness for Bobby P.

[Atlhogfan1]

Portis last 3 games

18 pts 9 reb
18 pts 7 reb
19 pts 8 reb

26-40 from the field and he isn't taking a lot of layups or getting a lot of dunks

I still find it interesting a 6-11 245 lb F with the minutes he plays and the amount of shots he takes can go 3 games with only 3 FTA.  0 fouls today as well. 

[Swinesong1]

No comments from the rebound Nazis?

[Wild Bill Hog]

No comments from the rebound Nazis?

Well, you have to admit there were a ton of rebound opportunities.

[Swinesong1]

Well, you have to admit there were a ton of rebound opportunities.

And the Hogs got the overwhelming majority of them.

[-Blu]

It's really quiet around here today.

[Dr. Starcs]

Kinda like it was at bwa.

[Atlhogfan1]

15,313?   Impressive number. 

[Wild Bill Hog]

And the Hogs got the overwhelming majority of them.

Do we do this in every game?

[-Blu]

Kinda like it was at bwa.

I was there, it wasn't bad at all. Around 15,000 seems about right. 

[ErieHog]

I was there, it wasn't bad at all. Around 15,000 seems about right. 

If you had asked me to put a number, from where I sat, I would  have guessed 12.5;   really, it was the best home crowd I have seen this year.   

[Breems]

Madden kept up with his average of 3 TOs today.

[-Blu]

Madden kept up with his average of 3 TOs today.

Is there a way to discuss Madden without player bashing?  I got some things to say, but I'm trying to figure out the politically correct way to say them.

[Swinesong1]

Do we do this in every game?

I'll let you do the research in finding teams that outrebounds opponents by 13 every game.

[Swinesong1]

Rebounding has been an Arkansas weakness for so long that it sort became like that well worn pair of slippers in the corner of your closet - everyone has a pair and tends to forget about it.

So you complain about something every chance you get but when the Hogs dominate the boards, silence?  Not you personally.

[Danny J]

15,313?   Impressive number.

I think that was tickets sold. I think there might....might have been 10k.

[Kevin]

Is there a way to discuss Madden without player bashing?  I got some things to say, but I'm trying to figure out the politically correct way to say them.

Just not playing well. Seems to want to do more than he needs to do

[yraciv]

Is there a way to discuss Madden without player bashing?  I got some things to say, but I'm trying to figure out the politically correct way to say them.

Madden is the most efficient scorer on our team at 1.67 pts per fg attempt.

[PonderinHog]

I think that was tickets sold. I think there might....might have been 10k.

I think Chuck said 9200 on the radio.

[ErieHog]

Madden is the most efficient scorer on our team at 1.67 pts per fg attempt.

When our offense all but disappeared in the last 4 minutes, he was brutally efficient at the FT line, and salted the game away with his sure shooting.

[-Blu]

Madden is the most efficient scorer on our team at 1.67 pts per fg attempt.

While that may be true, there's a reason he was removed for the starting lineup.

[Kevin]

Madden has 12 to in last 3 games.  Got to cut that down

[Danny J]

Madden has 12 to in last 3 games.  Got to cut that down

He has reverted back to doing some of the boneheaded things he has done in the past such as driving too deep with nowhere to go, gets caught picking up his dribble a ton all over the court and the one thing that stood out to me today was his penetration...he then screened Kingsley's man and kicked it out to him right about the 3 point line and was wanting him to shoot. I am not sure if Madden is familiar with Moses' skill set. Just frustrating to watch a guy with all that skill make questionable decisions. At times he plays very well then all the sudden he does something that makes you go.....huh?

[Biggus Piggus]

Just look at the player substitutions in the second half vs. the score. We saw a lot of the wrong ones in the second half. Don't know what MA expects to happen. He keeps doing it, and they best those guys can do is almost play even with the opponent.

[hogfan10]

While that may be true, there's a reason he was removed for the starting lineup.

He should be playing at 2 guard.

[lefty08]

Just look at the player substitutions in the second half vs. the score. We saw a lot of the wrong ones in the second half. Don't know what MA expects to happen. He keeps doing it, and they best those guys can do is almost play even with the opponent.

I like the fact they can almost play even with the opponent after dominating a team to a huge lead in the 1st half. Same could be said for ISU against us. Keep beating your head against the wall though, we realize you don't like Mike

[Biggus Piggus]

I like the fact they can almost play even with the opponent after dominating a team to a huge lead in the 1st half. Same could be said for ISU against us. Keep beating your head against the wall though, we realize you don't like Mike

Quit disregarding discussion by pretending that I'm doing it out of bias. Some of us understand what we're watching. You can call the Hogs, I suppose.

[lefty08]

Quit disregarding discussion by pretending that I'm doing it out of bias. Some of us understand what we're watching. You can call the Hogs, I suppose.

Your opinion is clear, at least youre doing it without writing a 2 page novel though. I shouldn't complain

[porkinsons disease]

Quit disregarding discussion by pretending that I'm doing it out of bias. Some of us understand what we're watching. You can call the Hogs, I suppose.

Well said. Thank you.

[Danny J]

Just look at the player substitutions in the second half vs. the score. We saw a lot of the wrong ones in the second half. Don't know what MA expects to happen. He keeps doing it, and they best those guys can do is almost play even with the opponent.

And to further your point notice that at all times in the first half either Beard or Durham on the court at all times. We went away from that some in the second half with both sitting and the offense and defense reverted back to doing some sloppy things.

[bigdaddyhawg]

Is there a way to discuss Madden without player bashing?  I got some things to say, but I'm trying to figure out the politically correct way to say them.

How about this: this team is better when he's not on the floor.

When he's on the floor movement becomes stagnant, both player and ball.

I thought the team was much better with Durham at the point.

[Danny J]

Is there a way to discuss Madden without player bashing?  I got some things to say, but I'm trying to figure out the politically correct way to say them.

I don't think it is bashing as long as you are stating opinion without going over the top while most agree it is true. A post I made a few minutes ago in another thread talked about the panic that sets in late in close games he has exhibited while trying to get the team into some semblance of an offense. That leads to confusion and terrible decisions. That is the cold hard truth of the matter. Even CMA agreed which is why Durham started at the one and Beard replaced Durham for the first half.

[nextlevel]

How about this: this team is better when he's not on the floor.

When he's on the floor movement becomes stagnant, both player and ball.

I thought the team was much better with Durham at the point.

It doesn't matter who runs the point.

It doesn't matter who the opposite guard is when Madden is on the court.

When Madden is on the court, the ball movement stalls when the ball gets into his hands, more dribbling occurs, less passing to create shots, more dibbling to create shots occurs.

This isn't the dribble drive offense being ran, dribbling and driving disrupts the flow of the offense.

That is why any combination of guards on the court while Madden is on the bench sees the offense have more of a flow and rhythm . It doesn't matter if Madden is playing the point or one of the off guard positions, the only way he can be prevented from bogging down the offense is when he is sitting on the sidelines.

He isn't a "selfish" player, but the offense creates shots via passing more than it does dribbling or holding onto the ball.

[bigdaddyhawg]

It doesn't matter who runs the point.

It doesn't matter who the opposite guard is when Madden is on the court.

When Madden is on the court, the ball movement stalls when the ball gets into his hands, more dribbling occurs, less passing to create shots, more dibbling to create shots occurs.

This isn't the dribble drive offense being ran, dribbling and driving disrupts the flow of the offense.

That is why any combination of guards on the court while Madden is on the bench sees the offense have more of a flow and rhythm . It doesn't matter if Madden is playing the point or one of the off guard positions, the only way he can be prevented from bogging down the offense is when he is sitting on the sidelines.

He isn't a "selfish" player, but the offense creates shots via passing more than it does dribbling or holding onto the ball.

I don't see him as being selfish.  I just don't think he has any idea what he should do.

IMO he should be coached to have one roll: stand either foul line extended or deep corner, waiting for someone to penetrate or kick, to shoot a catch and shoot three.  If the ball is passed to you and you're not wide open, get the ball out of your hands in 0.01 seconds, preferably to a teammate.

If he cannot do this proficiently, he would get only trivial PT.

[nextlevel]

I don't see him as being selfish.  I just don't think he has any idea what he should do.

IMO he should be coached to have one roll: stand either foul line extended or deep corner, waiting for someone to penetrate or kick, to shoot a catch and shoot three.  If the ball is passed to you and you're not wide open, get the ball out of your hands in 0.01 seconds, preferably to a teammate.

If he cannot do this proficiently, he would get only trivial PT.

Well, that would work against teams playing a zone, for the most part.

The main trouble against man is for the offense to work effectively the needs to have movement, both the ball and the players without the ball.

A cut not resulting in a basket is better than standing around and watching, for example.

The entire team needs to work on screening, not just the screener setting up at the proper angle, but the guy coming off the screen normally leaves to much space for an effective screen to be set without fouling. There are what I would call "false screens" during the initial movements where you are not trying to screen to clear an opening for a shot but instead to allow enough space for a pass to create ball movement, but those are not what I'm talking about.

Of course every team has areas where they can improve, this team is no different.

I imagine we will see some puzzling and/or interesting rotations of players these next few games before a more set rotation is made for conference play, which is fine, that's why these types of games are no the schedule. Durahm, Beard, and Babb can shake up the rotation these next few weeks as we now have the depth at guard where the guards are going to have to do things the right way to see the court, not that they will be on the court because they are the best available and you have to take the bad with the good.

I think the forward rotations are pretty much set, it would be nice for Miles and Thompson to step up and start challenging for minutes, but they have some pretty good players ahead of them right now.

[PonderinHog]

Just look at the player substitutions in the second half vs. the score. We saw a lot of the wrong ones in the second half. Don't know what MA expects to happen. He keeps doing it, and they best those guys can do is almost play even with the opponent.

So when something is working, MA is bound and determined to fix it?

[mhuff]

Well, that would work against teams playing a zone, for the most part.

The main trouble against man is for the offense to work effectively the needs to have movement, both the ball and the players without the ball.

A cut not resulting in a basket is better than standing around and watching, for example.

The entire team needs to work on screening, not just the screener setting up at the proper angle, but the guy coming off the screen normally leaves to much space for an effective screen to be set without fouling. There are what I would call "false screens" during the initial movements where you are not trying to screen to clear an opening for a shot but instead to allow enough space for a pass to create ball movement, but those are not what I'm talking about.

Of course every team has areas where they can improve, this team is no different.

I imagine we will see some puzzling and/or interesting rotations of players these next few games before a more set rotation is made for conference play, which is fine, that's why these types of games are no the schedule. Durahm, Beard, and Babb can shake up the rotation these next few weeks as we now have the depth at guard where the guards are going to have to do things the right way to see the court, not that they will be on the court because they are the best available and you have to take the bad with the good.

I think the forward rotations are pretty much set, it would be nice for Miles and Thompson to step up and start challenging for minutes, but they have some pretty good players ahead of them right now.

Next, I have always been a Madden fan, but I have been preaching for three years that he needs to stop dribbling , pass to the middle, drive and drop off, or stop and shoot. Now I don't know what to say.... He just is not getting it done. He clearly cost us the Clemson game..... but I have done the same with a missed FT. I just know the difference with him in there the second half was like night and day. I just can't believe that he has played this many years and commits the mistakes with the ball that he does. Look at the stat sheet and tell me what guard played well though. In Madden's case what keeps sticking in my mind is his lack of defense.... That is not showing up on the stat sheet..... Even though we won, there weren't but a few that played well.

I too do not understand why Thompson is not getting PT. I do not understand a lot of MA rationale.

Was watching someone play this weekend. The ball went down the court and into the basket. The ball never hit the floor. We don't pass in the half court fast enough ,and there is not enough movement. Plus, when they are open in the middle, it only goes in about a quarter of the time.

[mhuff]

So when something is working, MA is bound and determined to fix it?

Ponderin, hopefully MA is going to find some line ups that work. If a player can't play, don't play him.

We got outscored the second half..... now why is that? Ponderin, don't say because the other team scored more points. 

[nextlevel]

Next, I have always been a Madden fan, but I have been preaching for three years that he needs to stop dribbling , pass to the middle, drive and drop off, or stop and shoot. Now I don't know what to say.... He just is not getting it done. He clearly cost us the Clemson game..... but I have done the same with a missed FT. I just know the difference with him in there the second half was like night and day. I just can't believe that he has played this many years and commits the mistakes with the ball that he does. Look at the stat sheet and tell me what guard played well though. In Madden's case what keeps sticking in my mind is his lack of defense.... That is not showing up on the stat sheet..... Even though we won, there weren't but a few that played well.

I've never "hated" on Madden, I just can stick up for his ways anymore. It isn't that he's out of position, or playing a position he isn't capable, its he plays him self out of position on defense putting a strain on the other 4 guys, then when the game is in the balance, he makes to many mental errors. In the past (Mizzou for example), it was "well who else do you go to in that situation?" Now its clear it doesn't matter, if it is that situation and he gets the ball, he's taking the shot, even though he should be the last to be doing so in most instances.

Just go back and watch before half of the Dayton game, Mike drew up something, was talking to the other guards about it, what he drew up? Who will ever know as the ball went into Madden's hands and never left.

He has done a good job distributing the ball, which is usually the role of a PG, but his main problem has and will continue to be trying to play beyond his abilities, its almost as if he doesn't know his limitations, but he would be a much better and efficient player if he did.

I too do not understand why Thompson is not getting PT. I do not understand a lot of MA rationale.

It isn't that hard to figure out, if you want Thompson to get more minutes, figure out how many minutes you want Portis and Kingsley to give up to make it so. Hopefully he does get more minutes in these up coming games to give him some development time in live action while giving Portis a chance to stay fresh for league play, but that will not be possible if the team plays down to their opponents.

Thompson is like Williams was his first two years, one of those guys who will break out their soph/junior years if they stick with it and work hard at it.

Another way of putting it would be last year many thought Kingsley should be getting more of Clarke's minutes "can't understand how these guys can't beat out Clarke, etc", truth of the matter is this would be a completely different team if we still had Clarke this year, but again some wouldn't understand why he gets so many minutes in a game.

[Danny J]

Next, I have always been a Madden fan, but I have been preaching for three years that he needs to stop dribbling , pass to the middle, drive and drop off, or stop and shoot. Now I don't know what to say.... He just is not getting it done. He clearly cost us the Clemson game..... but I have done the same with a missed FT. I just know the difference with him in there the second half was like night and day. I just can't believe that he has played this many years and commits the mistakes with the ball that he does. Look at the stat sheet and tell me what guard played well though. In Madden's case what keeps sticking in my mind is his lack of defense.... That is not showing up on the stat sheet..... Even though we won, there weren't but a few that played well.

I too do not understand why Thompson is not getting PT. I do not understand a lot of MA rationale.

Not to belabor the point but the thing that really hits home are the mistakes he continues to make as a senior. A lot are freshman and sometimes sophomore mistakes. The drive, screen and kick the ball out to Kingsley(who then proceeds to travel) for a 3 really drives home that point. It is very frustrating to watch. The amount of times he dribbles to the sideline or down in traffic and then picks up his dribble is mind boggling. He also tries to force things by dribble driving into a defense with nowhere to go. CMA needs to sit him when he is doing goofy things. He did sit at least once as a direct result of doing something although I can't remember what specifically. I know that he had Durham get off the bench, we then went to a media timeout and the ref pulled Durham from the game, made him go back to the scorers table and Madden was forced to re-enter the game. I really think that sitting him like Nolan used to do with players is the only way to drive home the point.

[mhuff]

I've never "hated" on Madden, I just can stick up for his ways anymore. It isn't that he's out of position, or playing a position he isn't capable, its he plays him self out of position on defense putting a strain on the other 4 guys, then when the game is in the balance, he makes to many mental errors. In the past (Mizzou for example), it was "well who else do you go to in that situation?" Now its clear it doesn't matter, if it is that situation and he gets the ball, he's taking the shot, even though he should be the last to be doing so in most instances.

Just go back and watch before half of the Dayton game, Mike drew up something, was talking to the other guards about it, what he drew up? Who will ever know as the ball went into Madden's hands and never left.

He has done a good job distributing the ball, which is usually the role of a PG, but his main problem has and will continue to be trying to play beyond his abilities, its almost as if he doesn't know his limitations, but he would be a much better and efficient player if he did.

It isn't that hard to figure out, if you want Thompson to get more minutes, figure out how many minutes you want Portis and Kingsley to give up to make it so. Hopefully he does get more minutes in these up coming games to give him some development time in live action while giving Portis a chance to stay fresh for league play, but that will not be possible if the team plays down to their opponents.

Thompson is like Williams was his first two years, one of those guys who will break out their soph/junior years if they stick with it and work hard at it.

Another way of putting it would be last year many thought Kingsley should be getting more of Clarke's minutes "can't understand how these guys can't beat out Clarke, etc", truth of the matter is this would be a completely different team if we still had Clarke this year, but again some wouldn't understand why he gets so many minutes in a game.

Clarke could fill up a stat sheet. I would have had him in a line up with Kingsley and Portis. Clarke's coach said he could play all five positions. While that might be a little hyperbole, I believe he could have played the 3. Look at the stat sheet. Think of the inside presence we would have had. Plus, Clarke was a team player...... wasted opportunity.

Thompson needs experience so we can play Portis and Kingsley together. We also need to play them together in the upcoming games. I believe Thompson is much better than many expect...... just like Kingsley was much better than expected last year...., what a waste of talent.

Danny, I know you questioned the pass out to MK for an open three, but he was 1-2 last year. I would like to see what he could do.

[Danny J]

Clarke could fill up a stat sheet. I would have had him in a line up with Kingsley and Portis. Clarke's coach said he could play all five positions. While that might be a little hyperbole, I believe he could have played the 3. Look at the stat sheet. Think of the inside presence we would have had. Plus, Clarke was a team player...... wasted opportunity.

Thompson needs experience so we can play Portis and Kingsley together. We also need to play them together in the upcoming games. I believe Thompson is much better than many expect...... just like Kingsley was much better than expected last year...., what a waste of talent.

I agree and think the next 4 games are a perfect opportunity to play him.

[lefty08]

I really wish we still had clarke. That's the sad truth with the majority of 2 season juco guys, it takes a whole year to get up to speed then poof they are gone and I'm sad. I've been pleasantly surprised with Durham SO FAR. The sky is the limit next season for him

[HF#1]

With all due respect to Madden, he is the last Pelphrey recruit on the team. 

After 4 years, it's sad that his best asset is his free throw shooting. Madden should be regulated to moving without the ball and shooting shots when open.  He shouldn't bring the ball down the floor and he shouldn't try to break down the defense.  His shot is good enough to be a 2 guard.  The problem is, he won't accept that role.

[mhuff]

I really wish we still had clarke. That's the sad truth with the majority of 2 season juco guys, it takes a whole year to get up to speed then poof they are gone and I'm sad. I've been pleasantly surprised with Durham SO FAR. The sky is the limit next season for him

Lefty, I was going to ask you why Durham is not reaching expectations..... perhaps it's because he was a juco, but I believe you think he is. I was touting him before the season.... his stats were 50% shooter and 44% 3p shooter.... He is not doing anywhere near that. I also thought he would be a lock down defender.... anyway you think he is a year away?

[mhuff]

With all due respect to Madden, he is the last Pelphrey recruit on the team. 

After 4 years, it's sad that his best asset is his free throw shooting. Madden should be regulated to moving without the ball and shooting shots when open.  He shouldn't bring the ball down the floor and he shouldn't try to break down the defense.  His shot is good enough to be a 2 guard.  The problem is, he won't accept that role.

Hey, I don't mind him shooting, I  just don't want to see him dribbling. You know he hasn't changed since h.s...... I do believe he dribbles with his head up now. He used to drive into middle and they would beat him down...... Nothing much has changed. I don't understand the lack of coaching there.

[lefty08]

Lefty, I was going to ask you why Durham is not reaching expectations..... perhaps it's because he was a juco, but I believe you think he is. I was touting him before the season.... his stats were 50% shooter and 44% 3p shooter.... He is not doing anywhere near that. I also thought he would be a lock down defender.... anyway you think he is a year away?

I think he has looked better than I thought he would. I'm always skeptical about juco guys and their numbers. It's a different game at a 4 year college

[PonderinHog]

Ponderin, hopefully MA is going to find some line ups that work. If a player can't play, don't play him.

We got outscored the second half..... now why is that? Ponderin, don't say because the other team scored more points. 

I guess we'll just have to wait and see, mhuff.  Sigh...

[HF#1]

Hey, I don't mind him shooting, I  just don't want to see him dribbling. You know he hasn't changed since h.s...... I do believe he dribbles with his head up now. He used to drive into middle and they would beat him down...... Nothing much has changed. I don't understand the lack of coaching there.

That's basically what I was saying.  Don't dribble.  When the ball gets in your hands, if you don't have the good open shot, pass it.