Where Arkansas basketball teeters on the edge

[Biggus Piggus]

Arkansas fan support is the subject. And I am not criticizing anybody.

The truly top-shelf, title-competitive programs in college basketball might have slipped to a small number. But they still draw over 90% of capacity for a midweek nonconference game against anybody.

Arkansas does not have a great home environment for college basketball. A way above-average crowd anymore is two-thirds full. That happens for conference games and -- who knows, maybe once in nonleague play this year.

In context with history, it has never been a good sign to see Arkansas lose consecutive nonconference games. Nolan did it in 1999-2000 (finished 19-15), in 1995-96 (finished 20-13), 1986-87 (finished 19-14), and that was it. Heath lost four straight in 2002-03 (finished 9-19), had consecutive losses in 2003-04 (12-16), 2006-07 (21-14). Pelphrey lost four straight in 2009-10 (14-18).

The inability to get up off the mat is a worry, big worry, and it's likely to diminish fan support even further than it already had slipped. If MA were sitting on a gigantic recruiting class sure to change the fortunes of the Razorbacks, perhaps the program would reach a base level of support. MA is not exactly the most dynamic recruiter.

To me, fan support and the quality of Razorback basketball go almost hand in hand. No, "build it and they will come" is not good enough. Recruiting is hard enough with this staff, if we can't bring in recruits and impress them.

My read on Arkansas fans is that they are actually pretty smart. If the team does not pass the smell test, fans do not show up. People know full well when they should be excited. When will they be again? This question will be answered solely by recruiting. Ain't no miracle transformations happening to this basketball team.

[hogsanity]

1. All games are on tv. That right there is going to hurt in game attendance, especially with the proliferation of " off time " games. 8pm on a weeknight, 4pm on a Sunday for example

2. The program has been to 3 ncaat in 13 years. There is an entire generation that has not lived much, if any success, for this program.

3. Cost. When I was 23, in 1993-94 I could go to a game for a couple bucks of gas, and seems like tickets were $15 each ( maybe I dreamed that ). Now it is $25 a ticket ( face ) plus gas, plus anything else you buy ( food, merch, etc ).

4. The smell test, as you put it. This team smells just like last years team and the year before. We see the same mistakes, same lack of ability to play in the half court, long scoring droughts, opponent getting easy baskets, etc.

5. They will yet again be a bubble team. They MIGHT get in, I think they will, but they will be in the 6-10 seed range.

6. Recruiting - we have been hearing that for a decade. Every year is THE CLASS that is going to fix things. Yet Mike keeps getting tweener guards, no real PG, and the team continues to suffer.


Finally, the regular season in college basketball does not really matter. Maybe toward the end of the season if you are a bubble team there is a sense of urgency, but otherwise, the regular season does not have a " it matters" feel.

[MikePiazza]

Completely agree with all of these points.

If they win out before SEC play and can avoid losing the SEC road opener to Georgia, they should have a good turnout for that SEC opener with Vanderbilt.

If they can win at Tennessee the next road game, I think people will continue to show up for conference games. It just sucks that Florida and Kentucky are only road games this year and there isn't really a marquee game in Fayetteville.

I guess you could say the regular season finale with LSU might be a battle for the second or third seed in the SEC Tournament, depending on what Florida ends up doing.

[Biggus Piggus]

Arkansas does not need a so-called real point guard. That's not going to fix any MA team. Arkansas needs guards who can defend, really defend well, while being athletic enough to rebound and skilled enough to make a few shots. If Jabril Durham thinks he is supposed to play like a "real point guard," maybe that is his problem. Arkansas's system depends on true combo guards. Not a point guard. Never has. Never will. Mayberry? Not a true point guard. Beck? Not a true point guard. Combo guards. Mayberry was an excellent defender, but what made him great was his ability to take over games when necessary with his shooting. Beck played great D, rebounded and made gutsy plays when needed. No true point guards to be found. Didn't matter. Just listen to Nolan. He said it yesterday.

[jry04]

Completely agree with all of these points.

If they win out before SEC play and can avoid losing the SEC road opener to Georgia, they should have a good turnout for that SEC opener with Vanderbilt.

If they can win at Tennessee the next road game, I think people will continue to show up for conference games. It just sucks that Florida and Kentucky are only road games this year and there isn't really a marquee game in Fayetteville.

I guess you could say the regular season finale with LSU might be a battle for the second or third seed in the SEC Tournament, depending on what Florida ends up doing.

UGA is better than LSU.


Hope none of you guys have season tickets, but judging by some of your posts I highly doubt you do.

[Jackrabbit Hog]

Until Eddie and the Triplets, Arkansas was a football school, plain and simple.  Those that started filling Barnhill in the mid '70s were excited by the unexpected success that put us on a national stage year in and year out.  Then two things happened.

1.  We stopped being a consistent national competitor in the early 2000s, and as Biggus said, the non-hardcore fans reverted back to football 365 days a year (and for the record, I'm close to being one of those types).

2.  Bud Walton was built.  Hear me out on this one.  It is a beautiful, excellent facility for college basketball, the finest in the nation when it opened.  And we were winning when it opened, so the crowds filled (or nearly filled) BWA consistently.  But when we stopped winning, a crowd of 7,500 (which would have been about 3/4 of Barnhill's capacity) looks awfully tiny in a 20,000 seat arena.  In other words, I don't think we should have ever expected to sell out BWA on a consistent basis, year in and year out.  We overbuilt.

[hogsanity]

Arkansas does not need a so-called real point guard. That's not going to fix any MA team. Arkansas needs guards who can defend, really defend well, while being athletic enough to rebound and skilled enough to make a few shots. If Jabril Durham thinks he is supposed to play like a "real point guard," maybe that is his problem. Arkansas's system depends on true combo guards. Not a point guard. Never has. Never will. Mayberry? Not a true point guard. Beck? Not a true point guard. Combo guards. Mayberry was an excellent defender, but what made him great was his ability to take over games when necessary with his shooting. Beck played great D, rebounded and made gutsy plays when needed. No true point guards to be found. Didn't matter. Just listen to Nolan. He said it yesterday.

I was thinking of Mayberry and Beck. It is no coincidence that those 2 were on Nolan's best teams. I consider them true pg's because of what you said. They control the point of attack on both ends of the floor. Both went through spells where they were too unselfish, did not look to score enough.

I'll say it again, all the hogs have now is an amalgamation of tweeners. They are either good on D with no scoring threat, or they are a defensive liability but are a real scoring option.

[The_Iceman]

In Bud Walton, we need to close off the upper deck and make all fans sit in the lower level, until all those seats are full. Its silly to have 10-12k people spread across 20,000 seats. It makes a pretty good crowd look weak.

[MikePiazza]

UGA is better than LSU.


Hope none of you guys have season tickets, but judging by some of your posts I highly doubt you do.

Jury still out on that. LSU won at No. 16 West Virginia. What has UGA done so far? They've lost to the three quality teams they've played. A seven-point win over a decent Colorado team at home doesn't impress me.

[yocdaddy]

Arkansas does not need a so-called real point guard. That's not going to fix any MA team. Arkansas needs guards who can defend, really defend well, while being athletic enough to rebound and skilled enough to make a few shots. If Jabril Durham thinks he is supposed to play like a "real point guard," maybe that is his problem. Arkansas's system depends on true combo guards. Not a point guard. Never has. Never will. Mayberry? Not a true point guard. Beck? Not a true point guard. Combo guards. Mayberry was an excellent defender, but what made him great was his ability to take over games when necessary with his shooting. Beck played great D, rebounded and made gutsy plays when needed. No true point guards to be found. Didn't matter. Just listen to Nolan. He said it yesterday.

I completely agree.  Some basketball philosophies require true point guards, but ours does not.  In fact, I'll argue that the era of true point guards is fading.  Proof: there are less than 5 NBA teams (truly can't think of 1) that have true point guards.  In today's basketball game, point guards better be able to score as well as distribute.  All the guards should make good decisions with the ball and make the extra pass that leads to better shots.

[Hogfaniam]

Until Eddie and the Triplets, Arkansas was a football school, plain and simple.  Those that started filling Barnhill in the mid '70s were excited by the unexpected success that put us on a national stage year in and year out.  Then two things happened.

1.  We stopped being a consistent national competitor in the early 2000s, and as Biggus said, the non-hardcore fans reverted back to football 365 days a year (and for the record, I'm close to being one of those types).

2.  Bud Walton was built.  Hear me out on this one.  It is a beautiful, excellent facility for college basketball, the finest in the nation when it opened.  And we were winning when it opened, so the crowds filled (or nearly filled) BWA consistently.  But when we stopped winning, a crowd of 7,500 (which would have been about 3/4 of Barnhill's capacity) looks awfully tiny in a 20,000 seat arena.  In other words, I don't think we should have ever expected to sell out BWA on a consistent basis, year in and year out.  We overbuilt.

Take the upper sideline levels and put in luxury boxes like thompson-boling.  reduce capacity to 14-15k. 

[Pork Twain]

Spot on with this thread.  The 80's and 90's spoiled most of us and everything since has either pissed us off or beat us into submission.

[Smithian]

Told you folks for years winning is all that matters for attendance.

I remember the "Fire everyone! Hire Anderson! Every single game will be a sellout!" predictions.

The good old days of hope.

[code red]

Winning takes care of business......get to the dance and season tix will sell.  Seats are filled.....see easy!!!

[code red]

In Bud Walton, we need to close off the upper deck and make all fans sit in the lower level, until all those seats are full. Its silly to have 10-12k people spread across 20,000 seats. It makes a pretty good crowd look weak.

So when a season tix holder shows up and folks are sitting in his seat???  Really??

[Atlhogfan1]

Winning takes care of business......get to the dance and season tix will sell.  Seats are filled.....see easy!!!

We'll see.  Not sure if just making the NCAAT is the answer.  Our fans know when the program has a chance to reach its potential over the long term or doesn't.  It may take more than making the NCAAT to get past the apathy that has set in which is Biggus' point.  There may need to be a make the NCAAT and some signs that this isn't only sustainable but a stepping stone on to bigger accomplishments. 

As far as the recruiting Biggus mentions, this was the main concern with Mike's return of those I talked to who were a part of or close to our program in the 80s and 90s.  Maybe it was a little fear too because if he can't it done and with the expectations set for him by those who demanded his return, it will be a sad ending and they don't want to see it. 

He could use a commitment from Monk. 

[eusebius]

I guess we can debate this but Mayberry and Beck were true pt guards. I'm not sure what context Nolan said they were of werent? We have had combo guards, and guys like Beverly and Alvin Robertson fit that description. I also don't think the true pt guard position is going away. I think you can win with different types of guards, but without a floor leader at the pt, you are asking for trouble.

[Jackrabbit Hog]

Mayberry was that rare guy who was a natural point guard but could just as easily fill the 2 spot.  Unbelievable outside shooter, but more importantly the guy who ran the show and did it very unselfishly.

[eusebius]

I completely agree.  Some basketball philosophies require true point guards, but ours does not.  In fact, I'll argue that the era of true point guards is fading.  Proof: there are less than 5 NBA teams (truly can't think of 1) that have true point guards.  In today's basketball game, point guards better be able to score as well as distribute.  All the guards should make good decisions with the ball and make the extra pass that leads to better shots.

I think you have some good pts

NBA true pt guards currently playing:
Chris Paul: prototypical pt guard. High assist/ low turnovers, gets lots of steals. Mike Conley jr, another true pt guard. Excellent on ball defender. Rajon Rondo, same thing. Combo guards like Curry, Monte Ellis, Kyrie Irvin are also effective. tony Parker is a scoring pt guard. Teams with superstars like Lebron, Carmello, and Kobe typically dont have a true pt guard because those players dominate the ball of offense. The triangle offense and variations of it work that way too. Michael Jordan's bulls never had a true pt, Pippen would handle the ball sometimes. But if you look at college and what had been the pattern, pt play has been crucial in winning. Some pts were better scorers than others but it's been crucial: Napier, smith/siva, walker, Felton, lawson, etc.

[Biggus Piggus]

I guess we can debate this but Mayberry and Beck were true pt guards. I'm not sure what context Nolan said they were of werent? We have had combo guards, and guys like Beverly and Alvin Robertson fit that description. I also don't think the true pt guard position is going away. I think you can win with different types of guards, but without a floor leader at the pt, you are asking for trouble.

Mayberry could play with Bowers, or he could take the lead. Mayberry was an excellent college two guard who also could handle and distribute the basketball. Nolan said Kareem Reid was the only true point guard he had at Arkansas. The others were either two guards or combo guards. He called Mayberry a combo guard. Nolan said Bowers, Mayberry, Shepherd, Beck and McDaniel all had some lead responsibility in his system, without need for a specific point guard.

[eusebius]

Mayberry could play with Bowers, or he could take the lead. Mayberry was an excellent college two guard who also could handle and distribute the basketball. Nolan said Kareem Reid was the only true point guard he had at Arkansas. The others were either two guards or combo guards. He called Mayberry a combo guard. Nolan said Bowers, Mayberry, Shepherd, Beck and McDaniel all had some lead responsibility in his system, without need for a specific point guard.

Since that was Nolan's description of those players that he coached and he recruited, I will defer to him, Lol. I think Nolan is using a very very specific definition of pt guard, and using that description not many guys would fit it. I defintely agree that Reid was the most restricted as a pt and could not play the two and was nowhere close to a combo.

[Albert Einswine]

2.  Bud Walton was built.  Hear me out on this one.  It is a beautiful, excellent facility for college basketball, the finest in the nation when it opened.  And we were winning when it opened, so the crowds filled (or nearly filled) BWA consistently.  But when we stopped winning, a crowd of 7,500 (which would have been about 3/4 of Barnhill's capacity) looks awfully tiny in a 20,000 seat arena.  In other words, I don't think we should have ever expected to sell out BWA on a consistent basis, year in and year out.  We overbuilt.

I'm not gonna go back through my post history and look it up, but I said this very thing more than once years ago. When the Bud was built we were at the apex of our basketball fortunes and the nadir of our football ones.

We overbuilt by double what the actual hardcore Arkansas fan base is. Barnhill was the right venue.

[Biggus Piggus]

Since that was Nolan's description of those players that he coached and he recruited, I will defer to him, Lol. I think Nolan is using a very very specific definition of pt guard, and using that description not many guys would fit it. I defintely agree that Reid was the most restricted as a pt and could not play the two and was nowhere close to a combo.

According to Nolan, his best "point guards" spent as much time off the ball, or more, as they did handling it. Eddie Sutton did the same thing with his motion offense.

[eusebius]

Thats one reason Rickey Norton, the primary ball handler, has low assist totals and Robertson, the off guard, has better assist stats. Norton does not have his hands on the ball creating shots with assist opportunities.

I don't remember Beck playing off the ball as much as Mayberry. I do know that Beck was more of an aggressive scorer at Fairley and in AAU and then became more of a pas first guard at Ark. That's my contextual frame of reference on Beck.

[Biggus Piggus]

I'm not gonna go back through my post history and look it up, but I said this very thing more than once years ago. When the Bud was built we were at the apex of our basketball fortunes and the nadir of our football ones.

We overbuilt by double what the actual hardcore Arkansas fan base is. Barnhill was the right venue.

Maybe if Arkansas's never going to be great again.

[Albert Einswine]

Maybe if Arkansas's never going to be great again.

The drought we've been in suggests we may never be that great again. How do you have that run, Eddie through Nolan, and then just fall off the map?

[Biggus Piggus]

The drought we've been in suggests we may never be that great again. How do you have that run, Eddie through Nolan, and then just fall off the map?

Easy. By hiring Stan Heath and John Pelphrey.

[hogsanity]

You know that BWA seats more than the on campus arenas of Duke, Indiana, and Kansas.  You would think, as popular as those programs are, they would have built 20K arenas. Cameron indoor only seats 9K+.

[Atlhogfan1]

I believe the original plan was a 15K seat arena or so based on the bottom level of The Pit or Iowa's arena.  Frank was told with the design the upper deck could be added for little additional cost compared to the cost of the entire project.  The demand was there.  It is a reason why the lower level seats so many comparatively and why it is underground as it is.   The effects of tv, a decline in the program, the decline of college basketball, the newness of attending games, etc weren't projected out very well.  Hog basketball had been a tough ticket for over a decade and college basketball was at its zenith.  About the time it was finished was when going to the draft early became more than just a rare exception.  Had BWA been built a decade later, I'm guessing 15K would have been max.  You try and create demand partially by how the NFL does it in not overbuilding and creating a sense of urgency to buy tickets.

[Albert Einswine]

Easy. By hiring Stan Heath and John Pelphrey.

I'm with you, but why are Stan Heath and Pelphrey the best thing you can draw to a tradition rich Arkansas? Never mind that one or two day wonder hire whose name I can't even recall.

[Atlhogfan1]

I'm with you, but why are Stan Heath and Pelphrey the best thing you can draw to a tradition rich Arkansas? Never mind that one or two day wonder hire whose name I can't even recall.

How it ended with Nolan brought Heath.  We know that.

We got Altman away from a place where he was having success and was very comfortable.  He left because of some issues Stan had going on.  Once it was clear the job was going to be as tough as it was, that our AD leadership was unsettled I guess would be a way to put it and with the scholarship situation after season one, we made a desperation hire and hoped for the best.  Then Mizzou made the E8 and we were destined for this path. 

[Hollywood_HOGan45]

Easy. By hiring Stan Heath and John Pelphrey.

Bingo.
Botched Basketball hires have murdered this program.
The Pelphrey process was one of the biggest jokes I've seen in college sports.

[hogsanity]

but why are Stan Heath and Pelphrey the best thing you can draw to a tradition rich Arkansas?

I am convinced that, had Broyles been allowed to hire the new coach after Nolan, on his own, he would have landed Bill Self. Once White and his committee got involved, we were going to get a AA coach, and the hot name was Stan Heath.  I told my wife the night Kent St won their 1st ncaat game that year that he would be the next Hog HC.

[Atlhogfan1]

I am convinced that, had Broyles been allowed to hire the new coach after Nolan, on his own, he would have landed Bill Self. Once White and his committee got involved, we were going to get a AA coach, and the hot name was Stan Heath.  I told my wife the night Kent St won their 1st ncaat game that year that he would be the next Hog HC.

John Beilein is happy the Hogs got Stan.  WV has made a couple of good basketball hires as has a lot of programs.  We did have two greats though back to back so the odds of hitting 3 in a row just weren't in our favor. 

Hope this thread doesn't end in a derailment. 

[hogsanity]

John Beilein is happy the Hogs got Stan.  WV has made a couple of good basketball hires as has a lot of programs.  We did have two greats though back to back so the odds of hitting 3 in a row just weren't in our favor. 

Hope this thread doesn't end in a derailment. 

Shouldn't derail it, this is all part of the conversation that has led to the level of support, or lack thereof for the program at this point in time.

[Smithian]

To everyone saying Barnhill was the right size, even in the darker days of Pelphrey we still would have sold out Barnhill a lot of nights.

I still think Arkansas could average in the 15-17k range with a program that is good.

[Hoggish1]

Arkansas fan support is the subject. And I am not criticizing anybody.

The truly top-shelf, title-competitive programs in college basketball might have slipped to a small number. But they still draw over 90% of capacity for a midweek nonconference game against anybody.

Arkansas does not have a great home environment for college basketball. A way above-average crowd anymore is two-thirds full.

My read on Arkansas fans is that they are actually pretty smart. If the team does not pass the smell test, fans do not show up. People know full well when they should be excited. When will they be again? This question will be answered solely by recruiting. Ain't no miracle transformations happening to this basketball team.

This says what I've been suspecting. 

This is the first year where the size of our home crowds have looked embarrassing on TV. Actually, it seems the sparse home crowd that Clemson had for us seemed just a little under what it's been looking like at the Bud. 

Maybe I'm off with this perception, but it doesn't feel good.

[Hoggish1]

2.  Bud Walton was built.  Hear me out on this one.  It is a beautiful, excellent facility for college basketball, the finest in the nation when it opened.  And we were winning when it opened, so the crowds filled (or nearly filled) BWA consistently.  But when we stopped winning, a crowd of 7,500 (which would have been about 3/4 of Barnhill's capacity) looks awfully tiny in a 20,000 seat arena.  In other words, I don't think we should have ever expected to sell out BWA on a consistent basis, year in and year out.  We overbuilt.

Bud Walton:  The arena needs an inside face lift.  When I look at games in order arenas the places are bright and sparking.  Maybe it's the lighting, maybe it's where the cameras are, I don't really know.

Even when the place is packed, you can never see that there is anybody in the upper deck.  Everything on the tube looks drab.

I'd like to hear what folks think is the problem with the look on TV and what can be done about it!

[Hogfaniam]

Bud Walton:  The arena needs an inside face lift.  When I look at games in order arenas the places are bright and sparking.  Maybe it's the lighting, maybe it's where the cameras are, I don't really know.

Even when the place is packed, you can never see that there is anybody in the upper deck.  Everything on the tube looks drab.

I'd like to hear what folks think is the problem with the look on TV and what can be done about it!

it does need a touch up, fix up, brighten up

[Cresthog]

In Bud Walton, we need to close off the upper deck and make all fans sit in the lower level, until all those seats are full. Its silly to have 10-12k people spread across 20,000 seats. It makes a pretty good crowd look weak.

Do we have trouble winning at home?

Let's fix our road woes and attendance and all that other crap will fix itself.

[ArkansasI]

Easy. By hiring Stan Heath and John Pelphrey.

You know that it was far more complicated than this...  Don't want to rehash it though.

[Biggus Piggus]

You know that it was far more complicated than this...  Don't want to rehash it though.

All it would have taken -- one good hire would have corrected the Nolan decline in short order. Lots of schools make that one good hire. Places like Butler and Wichita State can do it. Xavier, St. Mary's. It's kinda ridiculous.

[Jackrabbit Hog]

To everyone saying Barnhill was the right size, even in the darker days of Pelphrey we still would have sold out Barnhill a lot of nights.

I still think Arkansas could average in the 15-17k range with a program that is good.

I wasn't saying Barnhill was the right size; we had clearly outgrown it.  What I intended to say was that BWA did not have to be built as large as it is, capacity-wise.  I think a 14-15k sized arena would have been perfect.

And for those saying the inside isn't flashy enough, I've been to FedEx Forum and other new arenas where everything is "flash."  Sorry, I'm not into epileptic seizures. 

[Deep Shoat]

UGA is better than LSU.


Hope none of you guys have season tickets, but judging by some of your posts I highly doubt you do.

I love the way a certain group of JB afficianados have decided the rest of us don't know anything about BB because we have different opinions.

Maybe we just grew up in a different era and expect a better product that what we are being given.

You guys can kiss my ass.

[Biggus Piggus]

It's way too early to be able to distinguish between Georgia and LSU, no matter how much you think you know basketball.

[TexArkHogFan]

I don't think Monk will be the savior for Hog basketball.  He's one and done. 

[Deep Shoat]

It's way too early to be able to distinguish between Georgia and LSU, no matter how much you think you know basketball.

Really not talking about that part of the post.

And it's common for jry04, -Blu, and a couple of others to talk down to everyone.

[Deep Shoat]

I don't think Monk will be the savior for Hog basketball.  He's one and done.

And probably going to UK...

[Atlhogfan1]

I don't think Monk will be the savior for Hog basketball.  He's one and done.

Not savior but important.

Mike's reputation as a recruiter has never been strong.  Monk is the most heralded basketball recruit from Arkansas since Corliss.  He is playing 25 minutes from campus.  His brother was a good football player for the UA and recently on staff.  No guarantee he will be a Hog but it wouldn't be good to lose him.

His commitment could bring help to the staff in recruiting other players.  Monk may only play a season.  But his commitment could attract players who would be here for 3-4 years. 

And his one year may would bring success which again could give Mike the momentum he needs to build on it and sustain it. 

Not a savior but it wouldn't be good for him to head elsewhere.  What message would that send to recruits or Hog fans even if Monk spells out his choice and it is reasonable and understandable? 

[Biggus Piggus]

A one-and-done player is good if your program knows what to do with him. Some coaches plot their whole plan around enabling those kids. Most don't.