The value of Hogville

[stronguard]

This board is good because of the setup and the rules.  I know it may sound like I am kissing a$$, and somebody may have already said it, but the mods keep the thing going because they weed out the trouble-makers by use of popular opinion and when neccessary, force.  Every gathering of opinions requires rules for order.  It happens here.  Thanks.

[riccoar]

mike irwin quote:
In some respects it's not his fault because it's hard to get a picture at any given time of what that core fan base is really thinking.

Especially when the only fans he sees sit in a luxury suite with him.

[tulsahog36]

I don't think the sunshine pumpers have taken the darksiders out, the darkside is strong!!!

FIRE STAN

I am sunshine pumper, and I would say your comment is true.   The darksiders own this board.  The moderators are all Darksiders, and the a large percentage of the fans on this board on a daily basis have very negative views about Houston Nutt, and to a lesser degree Stan Heath.   I highly doubt if this board represents a true cross section of fans.   

[Feralhog]

For many years I have believed the U of A Department of Athletics is somewhat out of touch with it's core fan base. Frank always has a pretty good idea of what the big boosters are thinking. The average guy in the cheap seats ? Forget it.
In some respects it's not his fault because it's hard to get a picture at any given time of what that core fan base is really thinking.
That's where Hogville comes in. To most of you it is a place where you can have some fun, post your thoughts, express some frustrations, and pick up information. I see Hogville as a way for Frank, big Jim and others to see what's out there. In talking with HSV about this I explained many months ago that this board could provide that picture of the core fan base at any given time IF the members here accurately represent a cross section of the fan base.
Quite frankly most message boards would fail in that respect and Hogville is not there yet.
I can hear some of you now, WHAT ARE YOUR TALKING ABOUT IRWIN ?
Most message boards contain a high concentration of fans with radical views. More mainsteam fans are often chased away from message boards by the uncontrolled venting of those hard core fans.
You know what I mean. Name calling, threats, nasty PMs.
That's why we have attempted to control some of that. We're not trying to chase off the darksiders. We're tying to figure out a way to keep the darksiders from running mainstream fans off.
At the same time we don't want the darksiders to leave because the sunshine pumpers have taken over and are driving them crazy.
Somehow we have to get all elements of the fan base to exist here together because when we do Hogville will provide that link to the athletic department that I've mentioned.
I think we're on the right track. This board has tripled in size in about a year and a half. As I said in another post they pay attention to us now. It would be foolish for them to ignore almost 9,000 of their own fans.
What will they think when there are 20,000 members here ?
I think we're about to find out.

  What separates Hogville from other boards is we are an OPEN BOARD that allows posters to post their opinion, whether it's critical or not.

There's another board who's policy is like Hogville's but they have their own form of censorship.  Name calling.   

The sole objective for calling someone a name is getting the person to stop, if he or she disagrees with your opinion. Now that in itself may not be enough, but the second a popular poster flames someone, the flood gates open and the whole board piles on. 

The result of name calling is fewer people post, especially if they know their view is outside the board's mainstream.  Now some over there will argue that keeping some posters from posting is a good thing.  I disagree.       

As far as no name calling, the only board that is on par with us is Clay's, HOWEVER, that board is controlled with an iron fist,  so it's impossible to get an accurate gauge of the average fans thoughts. 

This board doesn't have a mainstream and we don't tell people they can't make a negative post, and imo, these are the key reasons this board will come closest to meeting your criteria, and people like JFB and Lindsey could glean the pulse of fans, if they have the courage to  cinch up their sack and be open to criticism?  It's also one of the reason's Hogville is the best board going!

[hogfankb]

In some respects it's not his fault because it's hard to get a picture at any given time of what that core fan base is really thinking.

It's not his fault.  Is that what you posted Mike?   Incredible. 

What's incredible about the fact that it's hard for Frank to have a handle on what the core fan base is thinking at any given moment ?
I have the same problem. I read a lot of stuff here but this is not the core fan base. Not yet. Last year when this team was losing more than it won for the second straight year I knew for sure that there were a lot of ticked off folks here. But is there a way to check every ticket holder, every hog fan who watches on TV and doesn't go to the games ?  If so I like know how to find out.
I hate to break it to you but a lot of fans don't blame Frank for everything. Some of them are on this board. A lot of them are sitting out there and are never heard from.
By the way, that was the point of this thread. If we could get a true mix of the fan base on this board and poll the members here on various issues maybe we'd know what the averge fan is thinking.
That would be incredible.

Season tickets should have consumer surveys on the back. Like the cards they Wendys or Hardees.

On a scale of 1-5.
How was the service at the consession stand?
How were the prices?
How was the game?

If you could make one change what would it be? (I wonder how many people would put coach?)

[tulsahog36]

For many years I have believed the U of A Department of Athletics is somewhat out of touch with it's core fan base. Frank always has a pretty good idea of what the big boosters are thinking. The average guy in the cheap seats ? Forget it.
In some respects it's not his fault because it's hard to get a picture at any given time of what
that core fan base is really thinking.
That's where Hogville comes in. To most of you it is a place where you can have some fun, post
your thoughts, express some frustrations, and pick up information. I see Hogville as a way for Frank, big Jim and others to see what's out there. In talking with HSV about this I explained many months ago that this board could provide that picture of the core fan base at any given time IF the members here accurately represent a cross section of the fan base.
Quite frankly most message boards would fail in that respect and Hogville is not there yet.
I can hear some of you now, WHAT ARE YOUR TALKING ABOUT IRWIN ?
Most message boards contain a high concentration of fans with radical views. More mainsteam fans are often chased away from message boards by the uncontrolled venting of those hard core fans.
You know what I mean. Name calling, threats, nasty PMs.
That's why we have attempted to control some of that. We're not trying to chase off the darksiders. We're tying to figure out a way to keep the darksiders from running mainstream fans off.
At the same time we don't want the darksiders to leave because the sunshine pumpers have taken over and are driving them crazy.
Somehow we have to get all elements of the fan base to exist here together because when we do Hogville will provide that link to the athletic department that I've mentioned.
I think we're on the right track. This board has tripled in size in about a year and a half. As I said in another post they pay attention to us now. It would be foolish for them to ignore almost 9,000 of their own fans.
What will they think when there are 20,000 members here ?
I think we're about to find out.

  What separates Hogville from other boards is we are an OPEN BOARD that allows posters to post their opinion, whether it’s critical or not.  There’s another board who’s policy is like Hogville's but they have their own form of censorship.  Name calling.   The sole objective for calling someone a name is getting the person to stop, if he or she disagrees with your opinion. Now that in itself may not be enough, but the second a popular poster flames someone, the flood gates open and the whole board piles on.  People witness this and the result is, fewer people post, especially if they know their view is outside the board's mainstream.  Now some over there will argue that keeping some posters from posting is a good thing.  I disagree.       

As far as no name calling, the only board that is on par with us is Clay‘s, HOWEVER, that board is controlled with an iron fist,  so it's impossible to get an accurate gauge of the average fans thoughts.  That’s why this board is one of the few boards which is close to meeting your criteria. 

I would disagree.   if you are not a darksider on this board, you are smited, you are insulted, and it gets very discouraging.   Peoples opinons are important, and they should have a right to express them, but the culture of this board is very negative.   The culture of other boards is somewhat more positive.  For a true cross section you would need to take into account all boards.   Most sunshine pumpers, as Mike has labeled us, dont enjoy the banter on this board and post elsewhere.   Most Darksiders dont enjoy the positive spin on other boards and they post here.   The only way to get a cross section is to use all boards as a sounding block.

[qakhed]

The end times will come when the two nations, the darksiders and the sunshine pumpers, unite and stand against losing. At that time there will be the sound of trumpets and songs of angels.

[Feralhog]

I would disagree.   if you are not a darksider on this board, you are smited, you are insulted, and it gets very discouraging.   Peoples opinons are important, and they should have a right to express them, but the culture of this board is very negative.   The culture of other boards is somewhat more positive.  For a true cross section you would need to take into account all boards.   Most sunshine pumpers, as Mike has labeled us, dont enjoy the banter on this board and post elsewhere.   Most Darksiders dont enjoy the positive spin on other boards and they post here.   The only way to get a cross section is to use all boards as a sounding block.

If  merely disagreeing is enough to keep someone from posting, I'm not not sure that I'd be interested in that person's opinion anyway?  The debates on this board are based mostly on fact or opinion, and the piling on that sometimes occurs isn't some cyberized form of a frat house rush.  If you remove the terms darksider and hugger, very little name calling takes place. 

Disagreeing with someone isn't censorship!  Telling people they can't make a post that's critical of the head coach IS CENSORSHIP!  Maybe there's a reason your views are challenged here? Maybe the true pct. of fans who are unhappy, is a bit higher than the so called 5%?

[tulsahog36]

I would disagree.   if you are not a darksider on this board, you are smited, you are insulted,
and it gets very discouraging.   Peoples opinons are important, and they should have a right to express them, but the culture of this board is very negative.   The culture of other boards is somewhat more positive.  For a true cross section you would need to take into account all boards.   Most sunshine pumpers, as Mike has labeled us, dont enjoy the banter on this board and post elsewhere.   Most Darksiders dont enjoy the positive spin on other boards and they post here.   The only way to get a cross section is to use all boards as a sounding block.

If  merely disagreeing is enough to keep someone from posting, I'm not not sure that I'd be interested in that person's opinion anyway?  The debates on this board are based mostly on fact or opinion, and the piling on that sometimes occurs isn't some cyberized form of a frat house rush.  If you remove the terms darksider and hugger, very little name calling takes place. 

Disagreeing with someone isn't censorship!  Telling people they can't make a post that's critical of the head coach IS CENSORSHIP!  Maybe there's a reason your views are challenged here? Maybe the true pct. of fans who are unhappy, is a bit higher than the so called 5%?

That is exactly what I am talking about.  I simple said that different boards have different cultures and attract a different type of poster.   I even said all opinons are important.   You then made a very negative spin off of my post.   What part of what I said is wrong?  do different boards not attract a different type of poster?  Are not all opinons important?    Is the culture of one board not different than another?     All fans have a right to their opinons and a right to express them.   We all buy tickets, t-shirts, etc..  We all own a small piece of the U of A, some own a larger piece, but we all have a right to our views.    You said if disagreeing is enough to keep someone from posting then you would not be interested in that persons opinon anyway.   When was the last time you posted on Clays board?  On any other with a different culture than this one?  If the answer is never, or a long time, then maybe you may need to rethink your first sentence. 

[jabohog]

For many years I have believed the U of A Department of Athletics is somewhat out of touch with it's core fan base. Frank always has a pretty good idea of what the big boosters are thinking. The average guy in the cheap seats ? Forget it.
In some respects it's not his fault because it's hard to get a picture at any given time of what that core fan base is really thinking.
That's where Hogville comes in. To most of you it is a place where you can have some fun, post your thoughts, express some frustrations, and pick up information. I see Hogville as a way for Frank, big Jim and others to see what's out there. In talking with HSV about this I explained many months ago that this board could provide that picture of the core fan base at any given time IF the members here accurately represent a cross section of the fan base.
Quite frankly most message boards would fail in that respect and Hogville is not there yet.
I can hear some of you now, WHAT ARE YOUR TALKING ABOUT IRWIN ?
Most message boards contain a high concentration of fans with radical views. More mainsteam fans are often chased away from message boards by the uncontrolled venting of those hard core fans.
You know what I mean. Name calling, threats, nasty PMs.
That's why we have attempted to control some of that. We're not trying to chase off the darksiders. We're tying to figure out a way to keep the darksiders from running mainstream fans off.
At the same time we don't want the darksiders to leave because the sunshine pumpers have taken over and are driving them crazy.
Somehow we have to get all elements of the fan base to exist here together because when we do Hogville will provide that link to the athletic department that I've mentioned.
I think we're on the right track. This board has tripled in size in about a year and a half. As I said in another post they pay attention to us now. It would be foolish for them to ignore almost 9,000 of their own fans.
What will they think when there are 20,000 members here ?
I think we're about to find out.

I hear what your saying about this board Mike. You may be on to something. The problem with the UofA is it being a victim of it's own success. There is no competition. In business terms it is a monopoly in the state of Arkansas. The controller's can dictate and thumb their noses at the customer cause their the only ones who have what we're buying. The fans that are not here or are mostly silent are the ones that leave a game that we lost saying, " Well, wish we could have won, but this is about the best we can do at Arkansas. Maybe next Saturday we will do better." I have a lot of friends that go just to be at the tailgating party's and be seen. They talk about the state of the football program and say they want it better, but the party is more fun than the game to them. It's something to do, almost like a ritual. As long as there's 60 to 70 thousand every Saturday, and fans that just go because of the atmosphere and the social significance, I don't know if we can ever have much effect. You guys are a lot closer than me and know things I don't, but 5-6 and 4-7 and a full stadium is not going to bust up to many good ole boy operations. JMO

[jabohog]

I would disagree.   if you are not a darksider on this board, you are smited, you are insulted,
and it gets very discouraging.   Peoples opinons are important, and they should have a right to express them, but the culture of this board is very negative.   The culture of other boards is somewhat more positive.  For a true cross section you would need to take into account all boards.   Most sunshine pumpers, as Mike has labeled us, dont enjoy the banter on this board and post elsewhere.   Most Darksiders dont enjoy the positive spin on other boards and they post here.   The only way to get a cross section is to use all boards as a sounding block.

If  merely disagreeing is enough to keep someone from posting, I'm not not sure that I'd be interested in that person's opinion anyway?  The debates on this board are based mostly on fact or opinion, and the piling on that sometimes occurs isn't some cyberized form of a frat house rush.  If you remove the terms darksider and hugger, very little name calling takes place. 

Disagreeing with someone isn't censorship!  Telling people they can't make a post that's critical of the head coach IS CENSORSHIP!  Maybe there's a reason your views are challenged here? Maybe the true pct. of fans who are unhappy, is a bit higher than the so called 5%?

That is exactly what I am talking about.  I simple said that different boards have different cultures and attract a different type of poster.   I even said all opinons are important.   You then made a very negative spin off of my post.   What part of what I said is wrong?  do different boards not attract a different type of poster?  Are not all opinons important?    Is the culture of one board not different than another?     All fans have a right to their opinons and a right to express them.   We all buy tickets, t-shirts, etc..  We all own a small piece of the U of A, some own a larger piece, but we all have a right to our views.    You said if disagreeing is enough to keep someone from posting then you would not be interested in that persons opinon anyway.   When was the last time you posted on Clays board?  On any other with a different culture than this one?  If the answer is never, or a long time, then maybe you may need to rethink your first sentence. 

Good post Feralhog. All I read was you disagreeing and as you stated your being called negative. Some like to grasp at straws. I get tired of reading a thread derailed because someone is pointing our Nutt's obvious weaknesses that he is never going to change. As for other boards, they don't compare and I myself don't want to go there. Not because I might be disagreed with, but because the other boards just don't have what Hogville does. It's really that simple.

[Feralhog]

That is exactly what I am talking about.  I simple said that different boards have different cultures and attract a different type of poster.   I even said all opinons are important.   You then made a very negative spin off of my post.   What part of what I said is wrong?  do different boards not attract a different type of poster?  Are not all opinons important?    Is the culture of one board not different than another?     All fans have a right to their opinons and a right to express them.   We all buy tickets, t-shirts, etc..  We all own a small piece of the U of A, some own a larger piece, but we all have a right to our views.    You said if disagreeing is enough to keep someone from posting then you would not be interested in that persons opinon anyway.   When was the last time you posted on Clays board?  On any other with a different culture than this one?  If the answer is never, or a long time, then maybe you may need to rethink your first sentence.

Whether or not different boards have different views is not the issue.  It's my opinion and you certainly have every right to yours, but the amount of freedom one has toward expressing his or her view is in direct relation toward knowing the average fans mindset. 

It's very simple, boards with strict rules regarding negative posts OR boards in which name calling and flame wars are consider cool threads, it's unlikely those type boards would accurately reflect the fan base.

I'm not sure why it matters but I post on Clay's board all the time.  I haven't lately because I stay off message boards if it's not football season.  Look at my post count.  I'm not an original member of Hogville, but I've been around damn near since the start.    The only reason I'm currently posting is  spring practice. 

[Factual Fiction]

Mr. Irwin, please report to Mr. Broyles office immediately.

[mikeirwin]

It's very simple, boards with strict rules regarding negative posts OR boards in which name calling and flame wars are consider cool threads, it's unlikely those type boards would accurately reflect the fan base.

I don't know if you're referring to this board but the only rules we have regarding negative posts is you can't do it to a high school kid or family members of coaches. We also apply common sense. We didn't curb negative posts regarding Heath's wife because she's been very outspoken in her own opinions toward certain fans.
Also, if the son or daughter of a Razorback coach came on this board and challenged some of the opinions here I'd say they would become fair game for discussion. But they haven't done that to my knowledge so we're not going to allow somebody to come here for instance and poke fun at Little H or Reggie Herring's son both of whom played HS football.
In a practical sense I don't think we attempt to curb negative posts as long as they don't involve name calling or personal threats.

[Knot2brite]

Just my two cents here, but wasnt there a time when the AD of schools would actually ask people what they thought about the program? If we are so technologically advanced that the major athletic department of the state has to go online to find out what the "average" fan thinks of the program, then there is a major PR problem. Eliminating all the negative posts and name calling and etc. isnt going to make a happy happy joy joy world where the athletic department knows exactly what is going on. If Franks wants to know what people are thinking, ask them personally. Hell call the coaches of the state and see what they think about it. Call other AD's at the high school level and see what they think. Go to friggin Wal-Mart and ask people while they are walking around the store. I hate to bust bubbles here but if a AD has to use a  message board full of folks that love to hear their own voices, then we are in deep crap.

[jabohog]

That is exactly what I am talking about.  I simple said that different boards have different cultures and attract a different type of poster.   I even said all opinons are important.   You then made a very negative spin off of my post.   What part of what I said is wrong?  do different boards not attract a different type of poster?  Are not all opinons important?    Is the culture of one board not different than another?     All fans have a right to their opinons and a right to express them.   We all buy tickets, t-shirts, etc..  We all own a small piece of the U of A, some own a larger piece, but we all have a right to our views.    You said if disagreeing is enough to keep someone from posting then you would not be interested in that persons opinon anyway.   When was the last time you posted on Clays board?  On any other with a different culture than this one?  If the answer is never, or a long time, then maybe you may need to rethink your first sentence.

Whether or not different boards have different views is not the issue.  It's my opinion and you certainly have every right to yours, but the amount of freedom one has toward expressing his or her view is in direct relation toward knowing the average fans mindset. 

It's very simple, boards with strict rules regarding negative posts OR boards in which name calling and flame wars are consider cool threads, it's unlikely those type boards would accurately reflect the fan base.

I'm not sure why it matters but I post on Clay's board all the time.  I haven't lately because I stay off message boards if it's not football season.  Look at my post count.  I'm not an original member of Hogville, but I've been around damn near since the start.    The only reason I'm currently posting is  spring practice. 

Your one of the more knowledgeable posters about football. I always read your posts because you show good X and O sense. Glad to see you post. Hope you can give some input on the practices.

[thehammer007]

Plain and simple this board is nowhere close to the view of most Hog fans. The majority of fans don't have the pure hatred that is shown to Nutt, Broyles, Markuson, etc.. It's almost embarrassing to read some of the views here.

If you will go back and read the original post in this thread I think I pointed out that Hogville is not yet to the point where it represents an accurate cross section of the fan base. But it's closer than most Hog message boards I've read. If you don't think so go visit some of them.

To the contrary.   There's a new forum called Pignation.net and they seem cloer to home than any other forum I've visited. 

[hogtheball]

Plain and simple this board is nowhere close to the view of most Hog fans. The majority of fans don't have the pure hatred that is shown to Nutt, Broyles, Markuson, etc.. It's almost embarrassing to read some of the views here.

If you will go back and read the original post in this thread I think I pointed out that Hogville is not yet to the point where it represents an accurate cross section of the fan base. But it's closer than most Hog message boards I've read. If you don't think so go visit some of them.

To the contrary.   There's a new forum called Pignation.net and they seem cloer to home than any other forum I've visited. 

That's INSANE.  They have 4 guests on-line right now.  Hogville has almost 300.  Saying you get a good sampling of opinions on Pignation is like saying you can poll 4 people at a bar in Fayetteville about the smoking ban and get a good accurate poll result.  They spend half their time bad-mouthing Mike Erwin because he is "the man" when it comes to fan boards and all they have is three goofy guys you've never heard of and FCJ.   

[mikeirwin]

Just my two cents here, but wasnt there a time when the AD of schools would actually ask people what they thought about the program? If we are so technologically advanced that the major athletic department of the state has to go online to find out what the "average" fan thinks of the program, then there is a major PR problem.

Razorback football is not some HS operation in a town of 3,000 people. The Arkansas fan base runs in the hundreds of thousands. Going to Wal Mart and asking some people what they think might not give you accurate numbers. However an actual scientific sampling of the fan base done by a company that specializes in such things might be a good idea.
One of the reasons I'm interested in this subject is that as I sit here I don't really know myself what the core fan base is thinking. Broyles has said that the discontent is small, less than 5 %. That sounds crazy but really how can I challenge that other than just to say it sounds crazy.

[jabohog]

Zogby is probably not interested, but Mort might could get a sampling done through ESPN. He should have a vested interest here as well. I still say that Razorback Stadium is your proving ground. That is probably what Frank is going by. It may not be an accurate cross section of fans, but it is representative of the only ones that matter.

[Knot2brite]

No Hog Athletics is not some HS operation and shouldnt be run like one either....but in a state with 2.85 million people you dont over look the small towns and small town attitude. Here in central Arkansas, the majority of the people are Hog fans, but not all of them and not the overwhelming majority that some people would like to think. Big money donors dont care about what the little guy thinks because they can always be replaced. But I will tell you this, I have never donated a dime to the UofA and I wont because that is not the college I graduated from but I still am a fan of the team. I care more about Hog baseball than I do any other sport including football. I remember the days when Norm would go on the road to small towns and do little mini camps for next to nothing to garner support for his program. AS I sat in Baum stadium this last weekend I noticed that Norm did it right. Yeah he got a buttload of money from big money but he always made sure that he knew what the folks in podunk county thought about his program. Maybe it is time some folks up there got off the computer and got back to grass roots. They might be surprised to see what folks in the small town really think about the program.

[Feralhog]

It's very simple, boards with strict rules regarding negative posts OR boards in which name calling and flame wars are consider cool threads, it's unlikely those type boards would accurately reflect the fan base.

I don't know if you're referring to this board but the only rules we have regarding negative posts is you can't do it to a high school kid or family members of coaches. We also apply common sense. We didn't curb negative posts regarding Heath's wife because she's been very outspoken in her own opinions toward certain fans.
Also, if the son or daughter of a Razorback coach came on this board and challenged some of the opinions here I'd say they would become fair game for discussion. But they haven't done that to my knowledge so we're not going to allow somebody to come here for instance and poke fun at Little H or Reggie Herring's son both of whom played HS football.
In a practical sense I don't think we attempt to curb negative posts as long as they don't involve name calling or personal threats.

Thanks Mike for clearing that up!  Sometimes my posts aren't the easiest to follow.  This board is as open as one could expect and imo, Jim and Frank could get a very good sampling of the average fans mindset by reading hogville. 

[Porkahontas]

The only word of advice I have is to not let the board get so big that it falls in on itself.

The Pigpen started as a great message board, a central gathering place for all Hog fans. It was THE board for a Razorback fan.

Then it slowly began to transform into something more than what it really was. Booth became concerned about some of the negativity toward Nolan, he found out recruits read the board and began to try to put a leash on everything remotely negative about recruits, censorship began showing up in places where it hadn't been before, too many admins and mods came into power who weren't capable of the responsibilities, and it literally grew so big that it toppled itself. By the time Rivals got the name "Pigpen", all the decent posters had done left and it was nothing more than teenie-chat because of all the censorship and the rules on posting.

All I can stress is to figure out what direction you guys want the board to go and stick with it. If it's going to be a closely moderated board where opinions are trying to be shaped and molded for the good of the program or something, it's going to go the route of the Pigpen. Too many little bitty rules covering remote things add up to a long list and that can frustrate the hell out of people when they start having posts deleted because they crossed a blurry line on something not important.

I understood the whole thing about tempering the comments made about Mitch and his mother during the recruiting wars but there should never be posts getting stickied at the top of the board asking posters to start thinking positively and to tone down the negativity, either in the past, now, or the future.

And one note to Feralhog: Some posters need to be ran off, or at least leashed in on occasion. You let too many of the teenie-bop crowd coming in and taking the board over with stupid polls, irrelevant posts about nothing in particular, entire threads of "LOL! and "+1!!", and jousts on how well everyone is doing on their EA Sports 2006 dynasty, and it eventually starts watering down the overall quality of the board. While I think everyone should have a right to voice the opinion, nothing gets more frustrating to see a good thread diluted to teenie-chat and karma back-pats. It happened when the Pigpen got to it's pinnacle and it can happen again very easily.

And for what it's worth, I think the board in general is in pretty good health, just watch those first steps down the hill because it can become a tumble in a damn hurry.