How to Get to 25/85 in Recruiting

[Oklahawg]

Lots of threads continue to ask a very good question: How do schools meet the 25 per year, and 85 overall, scholarship requirements?

Here's a primer (Tomhog, Richard Davenport, Woo Pig Stewie...edit to correct!):

1. Schools may offer unlimited players. Schools are allowed 56 paid on-campus (official) visits during a calendar year (signing day to signing day). Some official visits can roll over to the next year if not used.

2. Schools may sign unlimited Letters Of Intent (LOI). Only 25 may enroll, on scholarship. All must clear the NCAA Clearinghouse to begin classes/workouts.

3. Two athletes who begin classes in January (ie, spring semester) may count back towards the previous year. They may also count towards the spring semester recruiting class. That is, a mid-term guy like Andru Stewart can be counted on last year's class if there is room under the 25-scholie cap, or can count towards the 2009 (current) class.

4. The 85 count refers to students who retain on-field eligibility as of the start of summer (August) practices. All who participate in any official or unofficial team workout, use team facilities, etc., must have passed NCAA muster via the Clearinghouse. It is not uncommon for the Clearinghouse to say "yes" today and "no" tomorrow.

5. Walk-ons may be given scholarships at any time, and may have that scholarship removed at any time.  Athletes who walk-on for two contiguous seasons may be granted a scholarship and have it count towards the class they started in. Any walk-on getting a scholarship prior to completing two seasons counts towards the current recruiting class.

So, Hunter Miller could have used one of the unused scholies last fall. He would then count as a 2008 recruit. When Thomas and Stewart start classes Miller loses the scholie. However, if Miller was not given a scholie and remains a walk-on from fall 2008 thru spring 2010 he could then get a scholie and NOT have it count towards the 2010 class, but instead towards the 2008 class. The advantage is you generally have attrition over the years and don't use a current slot on a veteran walk-on.

6. Students may be granted medical hardship by the NCAA. That can be an extra year of eligibility (ie, 6-year hardship players, a rare occasion, usually the result of a player losing 2 full seasons due to injury). Or, the NCAA can allow the school to claim that injuries prevent the player from continuing their career, honor the scholie, but not count the scholie towards the 85 count. This (appears) to be what is going on with Marcus Shavers.

7. The 85 rule means you have a maximum of 85 total scholarship players in the program at any given time. Redshirts through 5th-year seniors. Once eligibility is exhausted the player comes off the roster of 85 scholies.

8. Players also must meet certain academic requirements to stay eligible. Its the 40/60/80 rule, where players must acrue that many hours towards a particular degree program by year #2/3/4 for the respective credit hour threshholds. Students must complete 24 total hours each calendar year, regardless of how it factors into the degree program.

^^^^^ This is the one I'm iffy on. It changed a few years back and I've been a bit fuzzy on it.

My biggest question is how ineligible players factor into the 85-rule. I believe that ineligible players must pay their own way and do not count towards the 85-rule even if they are in school. These players may work with the team in some capacity without punishment.

The academic rule is what nabbed Mitch Petrus this year. You'll note he was on the sideline at (at least non-conference) games.

9. Grayshirts are recruited players who agree, up front, to defer the start of their scholarship until one is available, generally after one semester. Edit: grayshirts may not enroll full-time as I understand it. (Thanks Phillip Seaton!)

10. Walk-ons and grayshirts may sign LOI and not receive scholarships. Uh, for PR purposes that better be known up front (that's how OM screwed up and Hunter Miller landed on the UA campus).

11. Players may sign LOI and accept a non-athletic scholarship. However, once they play one play in a varsity game they must count towards the 25/85 limit.

12. Players may sign LOI and accept a non-football athletic scholarship and be a part of the FB team. However, once they play one play in a varsity game they must count towards the 25/85 limit. And, they must give up the other sport's scholarship (generally to accept a FB scholie). This is the Bear Bryant rule, from when Bama's legendary coach would give FB players a swimming scholarship only to have them never dip a toe in the pool.

[DeltaBoy]

Thanks Oklahawg!

Nothing can be simple with the NCAA.

[Hogtropolis™]

Before this signing class (2009) how many total players are on scholarship?

[hog_fan]

Before this signing class (2009) how many total players are on scholarship?

We need around 5 more to leave to make room for a full class.

[PlayCallinBrotha]

We need around 5 more to leave to make room for a full class.

Please elaborate on that a little further if you would. I havn't followed that closely in the past. thanks,

[bobcat ball]

This may have answered and I am sorry if it was but how does these players who are transferring effect us being able to sign more this season and count them toward last year or the year they were signed or does it not effect the count what so ever.

[Fatmanhog]

my only question is if they allow 25 per year per 4 years is 100, no redshirts or anything, i know i know nothing about this but it doesnt add up to me unless they are expecting 15% of all recruits to never make it. it does seem to add up tho, but with the graduation thing 15% is a big number to lose right? i really am trying to understand this but i may never get it!

[Hogtropolis™]

my only question is if they allow 25 per year per 4 years is 100, no redshirts or anything, i know i know nothing about this but it doesnt add up to me unless they are expecting 15% of all recruits to never make it. it does seem to add up tho, but with the graduation thing 15% is a big number to lose right? i really am trying to understand this but i may never get it!

Transfers, declaring for the NFL draft, not qualifying, quitting, or just flat out getting kicked off the team.  I think between all of those things, you will find your 15%.

[Fatmanhog]

Transfers, declaring for the NFL draft, not qualifying, quitting, or just flat out getting kicked off the team.  I think between all of those things, you will find your 15%.

thanks it just seems like a big number, it makes plenty of sense but it just seems like a big number

[Hogtropolis™]

We need around 5 more to leave to make room for a full class.

So we have 63 players on scholarship right now?  Does anyone know if if this is a fact?

You are saying that if we use all 27 scholarships from this year (25 from this year and 2 from last year) then we will be at 90 total scholarships right now.  That just doesn't seem right to me after the senior class leaves.

[Oklahawg]

So we have 63 players on scholarship right now?  Does anyone know if if this is a fact?

You are saying that if we use all 27 scholarships from this year (25 from this year and 2 from last year) then we will be at 90 total scholarships right now.  That just doesn't seem right to me after the senior class leaves.

Sounds about right.

The transfers in (except for Br. Green) will not be scholarship players unless there is a free one once the season hits.

I'm not sure if the 63 includes Rashaad Johnson (transfer), Chip Gregory (transfer), Nathan Dick (transfer), Brian Christopher (transfer), or Andrew Davie (NFL).

Those 5 could do it, or we could be looking at additional attrition.

[Hogtropolis™]

Sounds about right.

The transfers in (except for Br. Green) will not be scholarship players unless there is a free one once the season hits.

I'm not sure if the 63 includes Rashaad Johnson (transfer), Chip Gregory (transfer), Nathan Dick (transfer), Brian Christopher (transfer), or Andrew Davie (NFL).

Those 5 could do it, or we could be looking at additional attrition.

After looking it over, it seems like there will have to be around 5 more guys lose their scholarship in one way or another for us to sign a full 27 this year.

Sorry to doubt you hog_fan.  It seems that you were right.

[notreseveredname]

Great Job with the leason my friend

You should also add something about the signed LOI.  They are binding from Feb 4 to sometime in April.  Matt Marshell signed with Iowa after the nonbinding date and then signed an LOI with us in May.

Also, are scholarships year to year or do they cover the athletes entire eligibility? I have always thought they were year to year. If they are year to year. If a player wants to transfer how can universities keep you from tranfering to a specific school? Or is this just a stipulation of transfering that you must set out a year if you get a release. If you go to another school that a university does not want you to go to then they just don't release you and you seat out two years. I guess I am digressing to much.

[Oklahawg]

Great Job with the leason my friend

You should also add something about the signed LOI.  They are binding from Feb 4 to sometime in April.  Matt Marshell signed with Iowa after the nonbinding date and then signed an LOI with us in May.

Also, are scholarships year to year or do they cover the athletes entire eligibility? I have always thought they were year to year. If they are year to year. If a player wants to transfer how can universities keep you from tranfering to a specific school? Or is this just a stipulation of transfering that you must set out a year if you get a release. If you go to another school that a university does not want you to go to then they just don't release you and you seat out two years. I guess I am digressing to much.

On Matt Marshall...there is something out there that says if you sign your LOI after a certain date its non-binding until you actually enroll. Maybe I'm dreaming that. Maybe the date is April 1. That means he could sign 5 and then choose, but he'd have to wait until after April 1. Or...he asked for a release and it was granted.

Scholies are technically for a single year, and renewable up to 5 years (6 with hardship approval) provided the requisite benchmarks for performance are met. The coaches can attach things to them. I think its pretty rare for coaches to pull scholarships for non-performance. I know that there is a "character clause" that gets invoked a lot - get arrested, behave in a way "detrimental to the team", non-legal issues with the university (j-board violations), not meeting team (but not necessarily professorial) requirements on attendance, etc.

Its like the coaches who negotiate a resignation. They are fired, but the employer gives them a chance to leave on their terms and avoid answering "yes" the question on the application, "have you ever been fired from a job before?" The coaches and players "agree" to part ways.

[Oklahawg]

After looking it over, it seems like there will have to be around 5 more guys lose their scholarship in one way or another for us to sign a full 27 this year.

Sorry to doubt you hog_fan.  It seems that you were right.

I suspect we'll hit next August with about 80-82 on scholarship. Round two of off-season conditioning will take its toll. And, there will be plenty who finish spring drills seeing handwriting on the wall.

[CarolinaHog1176]

As of 1/18/09, we've got 22 verbals and 3 already signed = 25.  My question is, if we can indeed sign 27 this year, are they just telling these guys who are still coming in for official visits that it's first come first serve on those last 2 spots?

And what's the policy on asking a recruit who's been (verbally) committed for a long time to gray shirt (work towards a scholarship for the 2nd semester, or even next year) so that they can get some of these last remaining studs to commit?

I know that they spin it to make it look like we're in the drivers seat with some of these 4 and 5 star recruits, but these guys have visited recently with many of them "raving" about the visit (and some having us now listed as HIGH interest on rivals):  RB Ronnie Wingo, WR Cobi Hamilton, OT Aubrey Phillips, DE Alex Williams, DT DeQuinta Jones, DT Corey Gaines, LB Greg King, DB Rudell Crim, and ATH Terrell Williams.

That's 9 guys who I'm sure the coaching staff would love to have, but we've only "officially" got 2 spots left.

What are the coaching staff's options?

[Zen_Hog]

It is kind of confusing, but I guess we can all wait another 2 and a half weeks for this to be over.

[hawgsav1]

Question about Guideline No. 9.  Since Grayshirts are not on scholarship (or at least not getting their education paid for through athletics for that first semester), why is it that they cannot enroll full time?  That doesn't seem fair to the athlete, since many of those kids are still trying to get a degree.

[hog_fan]

As of 1/18/09, we've got 22 verbals and 3 already signed = 25.  My question is, if we can indeed sign 27 this year, are they just telling these guys who are still coming in for official visits that it's first come first serve on those last 2 spots?

And what's the policy on asking a recruit who's been (verbally) committed for a long time to gray shirt (work towards a scholarship for the 2nd semester, or even next year) so that they can get some of these last remaining studs to commit?

I know that they spin it to make it look like we're in the drivers seat with some of these 4 and 5 star recruits, but these guys have visited recently with many of them "raving" about the visit (and some having us now listed as HIGH interest on rivals):  RB Ronnie Wingo, WR Cobi Hamilton, OT Aubrey Phillips, DE Alex Williams, DT DeQuinta Jones, DT Corey Gaines, LB Greg King, DB Rudell Crim, and ATH Terrell Williams.

That's 9 guys who I'm sure the coaching staff would love to have, but we've only "officially" got 2 spots left.

What are the coaching staff's options?

We are going to sign around 31. It is expected 3-4 won't qualify. It's possible a couple could be asked to greyshirt, but I believe it will be agreed upon beforehand and not come as a shock.

I believe we had a small senior class this year. Also, I have heard Shavers will graduate in May and move on to the working world. I expect the same thing for Fish. That could be two guys right there. Wouldn't shock me if a RB leaves. We are stacked there.

Like others have said, I think enough will move on after Spring Practice. Isn't Rod Coleman a Senior to be? I doubt he returns.

[Oklahawg]

Question about Guideline No. 9.  Since Grayshirts are not on scholarship (or at least not getting their education paid for through athletics for that first semester), why is it that they cannot enroll full time?  That doesn't seem fair to the athlete, since many of those kids are still trying to get a degree.

Clock as a full-time student at a D1 school starts. The coaches don't want a player to give up a year for nothing. By being a part-timer keeps your 5-to-play-4 clock from starting.

[Oklahawg]

We are going to sign around 31. It is expected 3-4 won't qualify. It's possible a couple could be asked to greyshirt, but I believe it will be agreed upon beforehand and not come as a shock.

I believe we had a small senior class this year. Also, I have heard Shavers will graduate in May and move on to the working world. I expect the same thing for Fish. That could be two guys right there. Wouldn't shock me if a RB leaves. We are stacked there.

Like others have said, I think enough will move on after Spring Practice. Isn't Rod Coleman a Senior to be? I doubt he returns.

We may need a progress report page!

Gone since the LSU game: Nathan Dick, Chip Gregory, Rashaad Johnson, and Brian Christopher. I've heard from a couple of sources that Rod Coleman and Marcus Shavers are graduating and foregoing their senior season. I'm forgetting at least one name...

[DeltaBoy]

Thanks for the update Oklahawg.

[want2be]

We may need a progress report page!

Gone since the LSU game: Nathan Dick, Chip Gregory, Rashaad Johnson, and Brian Christopher. I've heard from a couple of sources that Rod Coleman and Marcus Shavers are graduating and foregoing their senior season. I'm forgetting at least one name...

How many players are now on campus that count against the 85 ?

When you add 27 to that amount what is the grand total?

[sofullofwayne]

Thanks for this info.

[Oklahawg]

How many players are now on campus that count against the 85 ?

When you add 27 to that amount what is the grand total?

We will be under 85 come August 1. That's the best I can do. The numbers now are 27 + no more than 57, by my count.

[CDBHawg]

So do medical reshirts (Tyler Wilson, Jerrell Norton, Jelani Smith) not count against the 25/85 rule? Also, since Tenarius Wright reshirted becasue of injury this year, did he count against the 25/85?

[Oklahawg]

So do medical reshirts (Tyler Wilson, Jerrell Norton, Jelani Smith) not count against the 25/85 rule? Also, since Tenarius Wright reshirted becasue of injury this year, did he count against the 25/85?

All count against the 25 from last year's class, and the overall 85. For medical hardships to not count against either the player must be medically prohibited from playing football for the remainder of his career.

[Hog53]

I'm late getting in on this discussion but am confused about scholarship status of MLB guys like Bradford, Barthel & Davie.  Does the baseball organization reimburse the U of A for scholarship costs for these guys?

Very informative. Thanks!

[Oklahawg]

I'm late getting in on this discussion but am confused about scholarship status of MLB guys like Bradford, Barthel & Davie.  Does the baseball organization reimburse the U of A for scholarship costs for these guys?

Very informative. Thanks!

What I understand on this (FWIW): MLB club creates a trust for the player when he signs. In that trust is tuition money for X number of semesters. Trust spells out the details. The player is effectively a walk-on who does not count towards the 25 or 85, but does count towards the 105 total players that may practice before school starts.