Welcome to Hogville!      Do Not Sell My Personal Information

25 seasons in the Southeastern Conference

Started by lutherheggs, December 20, 2016, 10:39:08 am

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

lutherheggs

Quote from: rzrbaxfan on December 21, 2016, 11:00:14 am
It depends on what the previous coach left and how that leftover talent fits the new coaches scheme.  If there is a good amount of leftover talent that meshes well with what the new coach wants to do, there is no time needed. Massive change in offensive/defensive philosophy & ok leftover talent, 2-3 years.  Massive change in philosophy and little to no talent leftover, 5-6 years. 

A program like Arkansas that gets by with 2-3 star players will shine when those players can be red shirted.  Long term depth is built that way.  The talent was pretty depleted when BB came, and he was forced to play younger players that would have red shirted in more ideal situations.  If you dig through this board, you'll see tons of folks saying "5-6 year rebuild" when the dumpster fire of 2012 was at its hottest.  I think the success he had in years 2-3 raised the bar for some and allowed us to forget what we were before Bret was hired.
Long-term depth? There has never been such a thing at Arkansas. Longest streak of good times in my lifetime has been 3 years and that was in Holtz's first 3 years with Broyles' recruits. That was almost 40 years ago. Saw Kevin Scanlon at a party the other day. He still looks great.

311Hog

Quote from: lutherheggs on December 21, 2016, 11:21:45 am
Most of the Arkansas basketball players during the NR years were from out of state. Maybe not far, but they were not playing at an Arkansas high school. It can be done that way in football too. Takes a great coaching staff to accomplish it.

Sorry but i disagree.  Football and Basketball are totally different.  1 or 2 Great players in Basketball and you are set.  In football 1 or 2 Great players equals the Dmac and Felix year's. 

In Football you need depth, you need star power you need it all and alot of it.  That combined with luck in terms of schedule and opponent's strength (Bama at home or Tenn during a down stretch) and no injuries or at least very few depending on your depth and the position.

Those  saying that AR HS football has to improve are absolutely correct because the Hogs go as the home grown talent goes.  Sure there will be great kids that don the Hog jersey from out of state but the whole thing rests upon the quality and quantity of in state kids we get.

 

lutherheggs

Quote from: 311Hog on December 21, 2016, 11:45:47 am
Sorry but i disagree.  Football and Basketball are totally different.  1 or 2 Great players in Basketball and you are set.  In football 1 or 2 Great players equals the Dmac and Felix year's. 

In Football you need depth, you need star power you need it all and alot of it.  That combined with luck in terms of schedule and opponent's strength (Bama at home or Tenn during a down stretch) and no injuries or at least very few depending on your depth and the position.

Those  saying that AR HS football has to improve are absolutely correct because the Hogs go as the home grown talent goes.  Sure there will be great kids that don the Hog jersey from out of state but the whole thing rests upon the quality and quantity of in state kids we get.
I am not sorry to say that you are wrong. If you were right, Arkansas basketball would have been great in the first couple of years under Anderson with the 2 good college players he had. Basketball is very similar to any team sport, including football: requires depth. The Sutton and Richardson eras had 7 to 10 players every year who could play with any other program's top 10 players.

311Hog

Quote from: lutherheggs on December 21, 2016, 11:57:43 am
I am not sorry to say that you are wrong. If you were right, Arkansas basketball would have been great in the first couple of years under Anderson with the 2 good college players he had. Basketball is very similar to any team sport, including football: requires depth. The Sutton and Richardson eras had 7 to 10 players every year who could play with any other program's top 10 players.

not sorry to tell you that you are wrong.

1 or 2 GOOD players does not equal Great.  and even then yes you need depth but follow along with me here 10 is less than 22 is less than 33.

If you want to win a National championship you need good to great players in football at virtually every position.  In basketball you have 5 starters and from 1 to 3 maybe even 5 reserves MAX.

I have no idea how you cannot wrap your head around this, this is math my 5 year old understands.  AR produces 1 to 2 good to great basketball players every couple years that is BY FAR in terms of % quota needed more than the same 1 to 2 good to great football players it produces which isn't enough by a long shot. because you need freaking at least 22 4 to 5 stars just for the STARTERS, not to mention the reserves and the special teams.

ARKANSAS HAS NOT AND AT THE MOMENT CANNOT PRODUCE ENOUGH TALENT TO WIN A NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP IN FOOTBALL.

But they definitely can in Basketball why? because you need WAY FEWER PLAYERS to do that.

Hawghiggs

 As long as Arkansas is in the SEC. We will never win a National Championship in football, or make the playoff. We might make a major bowl game again. But even that is doubtful. The cards are just to stacked against us.

factchecker

Quote from: Hawghiggs on December 21, 2016, 12:44:28 pm
As long as Arkansas is in the SEC. We will never win a National Championship in football, or make the playoff. We might make a major bowl game again. But even that is doubtful. The cards are just to stacked against us.

As they are against Ole Miss, Miss State, Kentucky, Vandy, and Mizzou.   Hell, Ole Miss couldn't make it to SEC championship game despite buying the best players they could afford.
WORK FOR IT
PLAN ON IT
EARN IT
OMAHOGS

Hawghiggs

Quote from: factchecker on December 21, 2016, 12:46:18 pm
As they are against Ole Miss, Miss State, Kentucky, Vandy, and Mizzou.   Hell, Ole Miss couldn't make it to SEC championship game despite buying the best players they could afford.

Ole Miss couldn't even cheat to greatness.

311Hog

Quote from: factchecker on December 21, 2016, 12:46:18 pm
As they are against Ole Miss, Miss State, Kentucky, Vandy, and Mizzou.   Hell, Ole Miss couldn't make it to SEC championship game despite buying the best players they could afford.

Exactly changing conferences isn't going to suddenly make Arkansas High School football good enough.

HognitiveDissonance

Quote from: lutherheggs on December 20, 2016, 10:39:08 am
SEC performance for 25 seasons:

92-106-2  (46% win percentage)

8-0: 0
7-1: 1 (Nutt)
6-2: 4 (2 were under Petrino in back to back seasons)
5-3: 2
4-4: 5 (4 were under Nutt)
3-5: 4 (2 were under Nutt)
2-6: 6 (3 were under Danny Ford)
1-7: 0
0-8: 1 (Bielema)

4-3-1: 1 (Ford)
3-4-1: 1 (Crowe/Kines)

Under Ford in SEC: 16-23-1 (40%)

Under Nutt in SEC: 42-38  (52.5%)

Under Petrino in SEC: 19-13 (59%)

Under John Smith in SEC: 2-6  (25%)

Under Bret Bielema in SEC: 10-22 (31%)

Bowl record since joining the SEC: 6-9 ( won last 3 and won 4 of last 5 bowls)



Above .500 SEC seasons: 8

.500 SEC seasons: 5

Below .500 SEC seasons: 12

Won the SEC West outright: 2 seasons (once under Ford and once under Nutt)

Tied for 1st in SEC West: 2 seasons (both times under Nutt)
Thanks for compiling those numbers.

Bubba's Bruisers

Quote from: 311Hog on December 21, 2016, 12:49:50 pm
Exactly changing conferences isn't going to suddenly make Arkansas High School football good enough.

Nor will it improve our overall recruiting in general.
I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heal.

Genesis 3:15

Bubba's Bruisers

Quote from: Hawghiggs on December 21, 2016, 12:44:28 pm
As long as Arkansas is in the SEC. We will never win a National Championship in football, or make the playoff. We might make a major bowl game again. But even that is doubtful. The cards are just to stacked against us.

We ain't winning a NC regardless.
I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heal.

Genesis 3:15

MJ2

Quote from: lutherheggs on December 20, 2016, 10:39:08 am
SEC performance for 25 seasons:

92-106-2  (46% win percentage)

8-0: 0
7-1: 1 (Nutt)
6-2: 4 (2 were under Petrino in back to back seasons)
5-3: 2
4-4: 5 (4 were under Nutt)
3-5: 4 (2 were under Nutt)
2-6: 6 (3 were under Danny Ford)
1-7: 0
0-8: 1 (Bielema)

4-3-1: 1 (Ford)
3-4-1: 1 (Crowe/Kines)

Under Ford in SEC: 16-23-1 (40%)

Under Nutt in SEC: 42-38  (52.5%)

Under Petrino in SEC: 19-13 (59%)

Under John Smith in SEC: 2-6  (25%)

Under Bret Bielema in SEC: 10-22 (31%)

Bowl record since joining the SEC: 6-9 ( won last 3 and won 4 of last 5 bowls)



Above .500 SEC seasons: 8

.500 SEC seasons: 5

Below .500 SEC seasons: 12

Won the SEC West outright: 2 seasons (once under Ford and once under Nutt)

Tied for 1st in SEC West: 2 seasons (both times under Nutt)





I think you summed up the 25 years perfectly.    Lots of pay for little success.

ICEman

We've payed out in excess of $100,000,000 in coaches salaries over those 25 seasons or roughly the equivalent of $1,000,000 per SEC victory.
"College football is a sport that bears the same relation to education that bullfighting does to agriculture."

 

Pork Twain

"It is better to be an optimist and proven wrong, than a pessimist and proven right." ~Pork Twain

https://www.facebook.com/groups/sweetmemes/

MJ2

Quote from: ICEman on December 21, 2016, 02:30:34 pm
We've payed out in excess of $100,000,000 in coaches salaries over those 25 seasons or roughly the equivalent of $1,000,000 per SEC victory.

Painful.

Hawghiggs

Quote from: ICEman on December 21, 2016, 02:30:34 pm
We've payed out in excess of $100,000,000 in coaches salaries over those 25 seasons or roughly the equivalent of $1,000,000 per SEC victory.

That's awful.

Hawghiggs

Quote from: Bubba's Bruisers on December 21, 2016, 02:19:34 pm
Nor will it improve our overall recruiting in general.

Your right. We have always recruited about the same. Arkansas problem is schedule. At the beginning of the season. Arkansas fans pencil in which SEC teams will be easy to beat. Everyone else pencils in Arkansas first.

PonderinHog

Quote from: lutherheggs on December 21, 2016, 09:57:43 am
I tend to agree with that generally but it is relative: we are no longer a good football program because we are in the SEC and in the SEC, the Hogs consistently finish in the 3rd quadrant (roughly 8th or worst out of 14). By definition that is considered "not good". But put the Hogs in the Big 12 and this program likely has a far better record over the past 25 years.
You agenda is showing, as well as your virginia.

311Hog

Quote from: ICEman on December 21, 2016, 02:30:34 pm
We've payed out in excess of $100,000,000 in coaches salaries over those 25 seasons or roughly the equivalent of $1,000,000 per SEC victory.

this is pretty stark when you think about it.  All the other things that might have been accomplished with that level of funding.  100 mil to cancer research? over 25 years....

Porcine Coprolite

Winners never quit and quitters never win....but if you never win and you never quit, you must be an idiot.  No SEC championship in 25 years isn't "never", but it sure feels like it.

Years of data show that we can't consistently compete at recruiting, which is painfully obvious on the field.  We are a highly paid rent-a-win team for the SEC elite programs and that's the way it will for the foreseeable future.

I wonder if this is what Frank had in mind when he led us into the promised land?

MissippHog

Quote from: Biggus Piggus on December 20, 2016, 11:16:38 am
I'm ready for people to quit punishing Bret Bielema for being willing to take over our dumpster fire. That 0-8 first season at Arkansas -- maybe a pure genius coach might have done better, but I doubt it. That was an incredibly tough schedule. Arkansas lost to four SEC opponents that finished with double-digit wins. You go back and look at home many times in the history of the world that Arkansas or any other team played four 10- to 12-game winners in a conference schedule. It's rare.

That was a bad Arkansas football team. We have covered it many times. Bad team. Inescapably bad.

A lot of the illogic on this board wheels off of Bielema's so-called slow start in SEC play, but it was FRIGGIN' DESTINED YOU GODDAMNED MORONS. We hired a darned Big Ten championship coach to rebuild our disaster. RE. BUILD. FROM A TRAIN WRECK. OR HARLEY WRECK.

Our football program went into the ditch. The springtime firing of our head football coach was followed by a season in limbo with a temporary coach who did nothing but tend to his personal financial disaster. Some of the talent we had on hand was wasted because of that. It all but ruined an entire recruiting cycle, and we hired a coach who had to reassemble not just a coaching staff but an entirely new recruiting process in mostly unfamiliar territories.

OF [CENSORED] COURSE HE LOST A LOT OF SEC GAMES IN HIS FIRST TWO SEASONS. WHY DO YOU KEEP MAKING THAT MEANINGLESS POINT?

STOP IT. STOP. STOP NOW. Admit your idiocy and stop.
Unfortunately, your words fall on deaf ears.  It's impossible to reason with some of these people. 

Hawghiggs

Quote from: MissippHog on December 22, 2016, 02:04:40 am
Unfortunately, your words fall on deaf ears.  It's impossible to reason with some of these people. 
That's not reason.

Pork Twain

Quote from: ICEman on December 21, 2016, 02:30:34 pm
We've payed out in excess of $100,000,000 in coaches salaries over those 25 seasons or roughly the equivalent of $1,000,000 per SEC victory.
Imagine how all the other programs that have paid out even more and not won a NC must feel.  Lets not act like Arkansas has ever been tops in coaching salaries.
"It is better to be an optimist and proven wrong, than a pessimist and proven right." ~Pork Twain

https://www.facebook.com/groups/sweetmemes/

factchecker

Quote from: Pork Twain on December 22, 2016, 07:04:47 am
Imagine how all the other programs that have paid out even more and not won a NC must feel.  Lets not act like Arkansas has ever been tops in coaching salaries.

Or the programs that have paid players (Ole Miss) and still can't win their division.
WORK FOR IT
PLAN ON IT
EARN IT
OMAHOGS

 

lutherheggs


lutherheggs

What an ending to the 25th season in the SEC. Blown out in 2nd halves of last 3 games, scoring a grand total of 3 points. No one would have ever guessed this sort of fade and mental weakness possible. Well, it is possible and it happened to Bielema, his staff and his players.

DLUXHOG

What's your point?   We were in the SWC for 76 years and won 1st place in SWC a total of 14 times (once every 5 years).   Our first 1st place title didn't come until we had been in the SWC for 22 years, and this was in a much less competitive conference than the SEC............
"Don't go in anyplace you'd be ashamed to die in..."
(you might get this someday)

RazorbackAlways

Big name coaches bring big wins. Bottom line.

Etowah

I am 60 years old.  I remember 1964....but really remember the late 60's moving forward.

Arkansas football has always been exactly what it is right now.

Even the the old SWC days, our record was good but we were never a blue blood program.

The blue bloods of those days are still pretty much the blue bloods of today.

We are Ole Miss and Missouri...and we have always been.  We are not Alabama, Ohio State, USC, Oklahoma, or Texas.

DLUXHOG

Quote from: Etowah on December 29, 2016, 10:23:20 pm
I am 60 years old.  I remember 1964....but really remember the late 60's moving forward.

Arkansas football has always been exactly what it is right now.

Even the the old SWC days, our record was good but we were never a blue blood program.

The blue bloods of those days are still pretty much the blue bloods of today.

We are Ole Miss and Missouri...and we have always been.  We are not Alabama, Ohio State, USC, Oklahoma, or Texas.
a bit further... we were an also-ran program until Broyles got here in 1958.   He ripped off, what 3 or 4 SWC championships in a row plus a NC, as well as another 3 or 4 SWC championships, just not in a row.   Holtz came along and took us to great heights from 77-79, or so, and coached what may be the most epic win in Razorback Football...  Hatfield showed up and won plenty, but couldn't push through the wall...  Since then up until Petrino's brief visit was actually pretty dismal, or mediocre.....   Petrino showed us two things; 1) Arkansas could play with the big boys; and 2) Petrino's ego was bigger and more important than Arkansas.......   
"Don't go in anyplace you'd be ashamed to die in..."
(you might get this someday)

hogsanity

Quote from: DLUXHOG on December 29, 2016, 10:30:06 pm
.   Petrino showed us two things; 1) Arkansas could play with the big boys; and 2) they can not usually beat the big boys


fixed that for you
People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE