200 Feet Overcast 1 Mile vis

[bvillepig]

I got caught in a situation yesterday where I broke some of my personal rules for IFR minimums. I had several outs and enough fuel to make it to many alternates.  After landing and taking time to think about it I began to think of those of you who fly turbines for a living.

What is it like to fly CAT III approaches at the speeds turbines fly ?
Do the CJS, Premiers and other single pilot jets have the equip to fly CAT II and III ?
Share with us more info.

Remember Short Circuit.  Need input !!

[theFlyingHog]

I don't think you can fly(or get trained to fly?) CAT II or III for single pilot ops. At least I've never heard of it. I don't think many of the smaller planes have the equipment. You need something like 3 autopilots that crosscheck and all that stuff.

[fdx flyer]

Well, we're qualified to fly Cat III approaches down to 300 RVR on the 777.  At FedEx, we do what's called a monitored approach when the weather gets crappy.  I (the FO) fly the plane to minimums with the autopilot on.  The Captain monitors and takes the airplane when he sees the runway - except for a Cat III.  He doesn't even need to see the runway on a Cat III.  At 100 ft on the radio altimeter (called alert height), he takes the controls and lets the autopilot land.  Autopilot doesn't come off until taxi speed.   On approaches other than a Cat III, if the captain doesn't take over by minimums, I fly a go-around.  On a Cat III, the only reason for a go around is an equipment failure or weather that drops below minimums.

I haven't flown in 300 ft of actual visibility yet.  Probably my lowest is about a 100 ft ceiling with 1/4-1/2 mile vis.  Honestly, it's not too big of a deal.  We have so much good information displayed, and such good automation, it doesn't get all that scary.  Landing on the ship at night in the Navy was MUCH more difficult. 

Because my Bonanza doesn't have all that fancy equipment, I have yet to fly it IFR (no autopilot, no IFR GPS).  I'm just not very current at hand flying and using VORs and steam gauges.  I'd be really rusty, and don't trust myself until I get some more practice and some updated equipment.

I hear what your saying though.  I pressed on this past Sunday, when I probably should've set it down.  I was flying VFR from Greenville, AL back to Hernando.  The last 50 miles the ceilings got really low (less than 1000 ft in some areas).  I ended up  scud running because I knew the wx wouldn't be better for another 3 days, and I had get-home-itis.  I did have on board weather and terrain on my handheld GPS, but it was't my best headwork. 

Even if I was current and had good equipment, I think 200-1 would be below my personal minimums for single pilot IFR.  I guess it would depend on how much I trusted my gear and my currency.  What were your personal mins before this flight? 

[Flying Razorback]

My minimums are 200-1/2 or 1200 RVR.  The lowest I have flown down to was probably a touch inside of 200-1/2. 

My jet has to have the autopilot off below 200' so I end up flying most of the glideslope on the ILS myself inside of the final approach fix so that I don't cause the jet to balloon off the glideslope at decision height when I de-couple.

Flying down to actual 200-1/2 by hand is a little tricky because you can barely see the threshold, just enough to get a continue call.  We call continue if we have any of the approach lighting in sight and then continue down to 100'.  At 100' we have to have the landing environment in sight.  I've been down to 200, seen the rabbit light, continued to 100' and you can see nearly down to the PAPI's at that point. 

The tendencies my students have is to fly down glide slope, trimmed up, on speed, and on glide slope and as soon as I call decision height and they look up and see the runway they like to add a knob width of power which pulls the nose up seeking to maintain the trimmed airspeed which will balloon you right back up where you can't see the approach lighting and send you missed approach.  It's hard to get the guys to understand that a trimmed and on glide slope aircraft can continue to the runway with minimal inputs until the flare.

Reaching actual 200 is kind of like looking under a table, it just becomes imperative to crosscheck your instruments down to touchdown since you have few peripheral cues outside the jet.

[Flying Razorback]

And don't be afraid to give yourself a category of minimums and stick to those.  The Air Force restricts our minimums to 300-1 until we are experienced in the jet or we have a qualified instructor riding with us before we can go to ILS mins.

If you want to set a 500-2 minimum or something then stick with it and don't push those limits!  By your posts I can see that you do things the right way and have sought the most training you can give yourself.  But it only takes that one time of "taking a look" to get you out of whack. 

Approach practice is the best thing there is.  I've had to fly thousands of them the past couple of years as an IP and there are still times where I've wanted to turn the wrong way on the barb.

[bvillepig]

I had always stuck to 2 miles and 200 over mins. No night IFR approaches with less than 5 and 800 ovc. I have flown a few to min alt but always had 5 miles plus and my big long 11500 ft runway.

Sunday however was different. I had been off for a week with my wife keeping our grandaughters and really needed to get back to work   My gethomeitis kicked in even though I know better.

I have the blythville awos on my phone and when it hit 7 miles and 1400 ovc I said lets go.  Took off from Rogers in 1 mile and 200 ovc with full briefing and lightning distant west. Flight was really smooth but 10 minutes in my nexrad refreshed and I had heavy rain off the right wing and left wing for about the next 40 miles.  Cloud to  Cloud lightning was starting to develop close  we had 40 on the tail so I was putting distance from all the mess. I was worried about it closing together in front. 

Outran the bad stuff pretty fast but still pretty intense.  About 70 out BYH was dropping to 800 ovc then 600 400 200.  7 mile 5 mile 1 mile.
Ichecked JBR it was still 1400 DYR was 1800 so I made the decision to give it one pass and then go missed and JBR

It really does help with that ILS and 11500 feet and being 100 down the slope but after landing and getting home I began to think of you guys.

All along the route as I was listening the freight pilots at HRO the Commercial pilots at XNA had 300 rvr 100 and 200 ovc .  I had never been exposed to that and was just wanting learn. 
I have also been reading up on all the systems that you guys have and its very interesting  I just don't know how sophisticated the GA jets are.

Thanks for all the knowledge. 

[bvillepig]

I stay very current and always file IFR except on the short Hops. 

I fly practice approaches every time I go to KTKX for fuel .

Also it's not the same but I bought an add on plane for flight sim 2004 that has my avionics set up.   I set the weather up on the sim to anywhere from 1to 5 vis and 200 ovc hard rain. I was convinced after a few 1 and 200 almost always resulted in a missed that there was no way I would ever fly a real one. I do a lot of work on the sim just to keep the procedures and buttonology fresh. 


I am now more convinced after an actual that it will be the last one.
Sorry for being so long winded.

[Flying Razorback]

I think it's great that you get so much practice.  I think you've got a great attitude and minimums are always minimums.  As long as you stick to that then actuals aren't too terrible.  I think your self imposed minimums are very realistic too.

[bvillepig]

Thanks for all the great advice. One can never learn enough.

Happy Thanksgiving to all

[gotyacovered]

I stay very current and always file IFR except on the short Hops. 

I fly practice approaches every time I go to KTKX for fuel .

Also it's not the same but I bought an add on plane for flight sim 2004 that has my avionics set up.   I set the weather up on the sim to anywhere from 1to 5 vis and 200 ovc hard rain. I was convinced after a few 1 and 200 almost always resulted in a missed that there was no way I would ever fly a real one. I do a lot of work on the sim just to keep the procedures and buttonology fresh. 


I am now more convinced after an actual that it will be the last one.
Sorry for being so long winded.

so do you think the flight sim is helpful?

do you run it on a normal PC, or do you have a special setup?

[theFlyingHog]

so do you think the flight sim is helpful?

do you run it on a normal PC, or do you have a special setup?

I used to run FS9 on my laptop w a simple joystick/throttle and I really believe it helped me a bit on instrument flight. Certainly on power control. I don't remember how the wx set-up is on there, but if you can set it up to experience how the wind shifts throughout descent on an approach, I would take advantage of that every chance I got.


Edit:descent makes more sense than decent there

[bvillepig]

so do you think the flight sim is helpful?

do you run it on a normal PC, or do you have a special setup?

To me the flight sim is very helpful with coupled approaches to the ILS or the GPS with stepdowns. You can throw  in the ATC stuff and file a plan and fly it.
I normally won't do that now but in the early years it helped with all the phraseology, they became second nature.

I choose advanced weather and set up heavy rain and various mins and visibility. I go through all the mental and physical exercises to fly it just like a real approach.  What I found was that mentally I was normally very sharp on actual approaches after flying the sim that week.

Procedures were fresh, missed approaches were fresh, everthing flowed quick and precise. Manifold pressure at 18-20, air speed 100, gear down at FAF, stabilized all the way to min. Level off at min ,  "No cheating for a peek lower" It will get you and others killed" full power gear up, flaps up climb fly the missed procedure with holds. You can get awful busy single pilot IFR and everything needs to be precise and second nature.

I have cheated in the sim before just to see and ran into the side of a mountain. Really drives some points home.

It might not be for everyone but I think it really keeps me prepped.

I had just a normal pc and monitor running under xp with a high end graphics card . The key was buying the add on plane from flight one with the almost the same panel. I have an stec 55x with the Garmin 430s . The panel on the sim had the Stec 55x with a Garmin 530.

Again sorry to be so long winded but I just can't help myself !! Also if I say anything any one disagrees with I also love to listen.

[Flying Razorback]

If you're unable to get the simulator to work for you then you have to chairfly your approach procedures.  A blown up picture of your panel will work wonders with this.  Just like bvillepig said, being able to sit there and mentally move your crosscheck and keep your timeline moving in your head will help when you're flying. 

I see a lot of my students not realize when they miss something because they don't have a strong enough habit pattern built to know when something is wrong.  If your habit pattern is rock solid then when something is amiss, the hair will stand up a little on the back of your neck and you'll go through your LIDS check or whatever else you have.

I have my specific power settings memorized, my configuration points, my LIDS check, my drift kill, everything.

Whenever I start to get behind the jet in the weather I revert straight to basics.  My 6 T's over any fix or at any change, and my chairfly crosscheck:

Attitude indicator, HSI, Attitude indicator, airspeed indicator, attitude indicator, altimeter, attitude indicator, engine instruments, turn needle/ball, attitude indicator, HSI, attitude indicator, airspeed indicator.....

My 6 T's:  Time, Turn, Time, Transition, Twist, Talk...

[theFlyingHog]

To me the flight sim is very helpful with coupled approaches to the ILS or the GPS with stepdowns. You can throw  in the ATC stuff and file a plan and fly it.
I normally won't do that now but in the early years it helped with all the phraseology, they became second nature.

I choose advanced weather and set up heavy rain and various mins and visibility. I go through all the mental and physical exercises to fly it just like a real approach.  What I found was that mentally I was normally very sharp on actual approaches after flying the sim that week.

Procedures were fresh, missed approaches were fresh, everthing flowed quick and precise. Manifold pressure at 18-20, air speed 100, gear down at FAF, stabilized all the way to min. Level off at min ,  "No cheating for a peek lower" It will get you and others killed" full power gear up, flaps up climb fly the missed procedure with holds. You can get awful busy single pilot IFR and everything needs to be precise and second nature.

I have cheated in the sim before just to see and ran into the side of a mountain. Really drives some points home.

It might not be for everyone but I think it really keeps me prepped.

I had just a normal pc and monitor running under xp with a high end graphics card . The key was buying the add on plane from flight one with the almost the same panel. I have an stec 55x with the Garmin 430s . The panel on the sim had the Stec 55x with a Garmin 530.

Again sorry to be so long winded but I just can't help myself !! Also if I say anything any one disagrees with I also love to listen.

+1 if I could. Your post validates how I have always felt about the usefulness of FS

[gotyacovered]

good stuff. thanks fellas.