Who developed Kingsley?

[Nuttcracker, Sweet!]

Hogville legends Kane Whitehurst and Vin Ascolese. According to many of the clowns on here, they know much more basketball than our coaches...

[hogifino]

FYI....you don't develop skills in a week camp.  Coaches are doing the development and the players are responding.

[poloprince]

The same people that attempted to develop HM.

[HOGINTENNESSEE]

The same people that attempted to develop HM.

We have Bill Self on staff now?

[BRHogfan]

My wife noticed how much better Kingsley is in this game, too.  She commented "He just kinda pushes it in"

The development in his game with his back to the basket has been phenomenal this season.  He takes on double teams, spins away from the triple teams, gets good positioning for entry passes.  It's great.  Trey has been fronted most of the season, but you notice, no one in the entire SEC has tried to front Moses.  He's too active and dynamic.  They will try and push him as far out as possible, and hope for the double team if he's down on the block.  The other thing you notice with defenders on Moses, is that they stick with him *tight* all the way to the free throw line extended (they forget he can hit that jumper just inside the arc). 

I think with Moses it's the whole 10,000 hours thing.  He's spent a lot more time going one on one with Portis, Harris, and the like.  He's playing against our defense everyday getting double teamed, and at first he didn't know what to do, but the more time he's spent doing it the more comfortable he is. 

[jm]

He has tremendous talent and, from all accounts, a great work ethic. You don't develop guys like him, you allow them to develop.

[PonderinHog]

If Kingsley goes pro after this year, I'm am literally going to curl up in a fecal ball.

[BadHog]

If Kingsley goes pro after this year, I'm am literally going to curl up in a fecal ball.

[rwspear]

How about sending someone up there to overhaul Jimmy Whitt's shot....for a guard it's the worst I have ever seen....they thought he was going to be a scorer this season...don't see how you are coached your whole life and coaches not help this kid with his shot....

Guess you never watched Ronnie Brewer.

[BRHogfan]

Guess you never watched Ronnie Brewer.

Ronnie Brewer developed that weird stroke after he broke his arm.
If Jimmy was able to make his shots shooting that way, he would almost never get blocked though. 

[HognitiveDissonance]

I'm dumbfounded by the idiocy of a lot of fans.
How can you call a guy 'improved' when he goes from 7 min/game to 28 min/game?  (don't have actual numbers, these are close enough)

He didn't even play last year !

He's getting to play this year. It's as simple as that. Yes, he showed flashes, plenty of them to me, to show that he was capable of this WHEN FINALLY GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY. For once, Swinesong and I agree on something. He showed the potential before, the flashes. He showed a nice jumper from mid-range. I am not surprised in the least at what he's doing. He was a Top 50 recruit, the best recruit MA has signed so far. He chose Ark over Fla and Louisville.

And I've said 100 times before...much of this so dreadfully cliche'd 'player development' happens on its own time. This is not a MA critique; I've said this over and over, any player/any coach. Guys get stronger...more comfortable in the college game...the game slows down...they develop emotionally. It's a natural process. Notice I didn't say coaches do nothing, I just think it's way overused by most people. Usually they can't name one specific coach or drill used to 'develop' a player. It's always just thrown out there as a vague generality.

In Moses's case, though, it's mostly about available playing time.

[HognitiveDissonance]

Since people love to drag football into basketball discussions, and vice versa, I've used Brandon Allen before to illustrate same point.
Did Dan Enos 'develop' Brandon Allen? I'm sure he helped him, no doubt. He definitely was a very good play caller and I'm sure his QB coaching was sound.
But in my mind, Brandon Allen played so well this year, particularly the second half of the season, because he was a FIFTH-YEAR SENIOR. Most players play their best as upperclassmen. He was most comfortable playing the QB position and playing SEC competition after seeing four years of it already, and he was the most mature physically as a 22-year man than any other season. 
The natural growth process that Brandon Allen went through contributed much more to his fine play this year than anything a coach did for him.

[Cinco de Hogo]

Since people love to drag football into basketball discussions, and vice versa, I've used Brandon Allen before to illustrate same point.
Did Dan Enos 'develop' Brandon Allen? I'm sure he helped him, no doubt. He definitely was a very good play caller and I'm sure his QB coaching was sound.
But in my mind, Brandon Allen played so well this year, particularly the second half of the season, because he was a FIFTH-YEAR SENIOR. Most players play their best as upperclassmen. He was most comfortable playing the QB position and playing SEC competition after seeing four years of it already, and he was the most mature physically as a 22-year man than any other season. 
The natural growth process that Brandon Allen went through contributed much more to his fine play this year than anything a coach did for him.

Basketball and football are very different in how one player can affect a team.  What MK has done is mostly him developing his particular skill set.  However, with BA it was more about the development of the offense allowing him to exploit his skill set.  Being a fifth year senior did help him in many ways as you would expect.  One of them being able to work with his fourth OC.  I hope we get MK back for that extra year!

[BRHogfan]

I'm dumbfounded by the idiocy of a lot of fans.
How can you call a guy 'improved' when he goes from 7 min/game to 28 min/game?  (don't have actual numbers, these are close enough)

He didn't even play last year !

He's getting to play this year. It's as simple as that. Yes, he showed flashes, plenty of them to me, to show that he was capable of this WHEN FINALLY GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY. For once, Swinesong and I agree on something. He showed the potential before, the flashes. He showed a nice jumper from mid-range. I am not surprised in the least at what he's doing. He was a Top 50 recruit, the best recruit MA has signed so far. He chose Ark over Fla and Louisville.

And I've said 100 times before...much of this so dreadfully cliche'd 'player development' happens on its own time. This is not a MA critique; I've said this over and over, any player/any coach. Guys get stronger...more comfortable in the college game...the game slows down...they develop emotionally. It's a natural process. Notice I didn't say coaches do nothing, I just think it's way overused by most people. Usually they can't name one specific coach or drill used to 'develop' a player. It's always just thrown out there as a vague generality.

In Moses's case, though, it's mostly about available playing time.

It's really easy to get actual numbers.

He averaged 10.9 mpg last year.  This year 29.3. That's a 269% increase.
He improved his ppg by 456%
Rebounds - 368%
FG% - 116%
FT% - 110%
Assists per game - 413%
Blocks per game - 231%
Steals per game - 261%

So the only numbers that increased in proportion to playing time are Blocks and Steals.

[ATU HOG]

I think part of it is that he's the guy and his reps have increased all around.  The more you play, the better you're going to get.  Last year he wasn't on the court a ton to really ever get into a rhythm.  Tag that with playing behind BP and Qualls, you tend to not be "the guy."  This year that has changed.

I just wish we could have seen more Moses and BP on the court last year.  Them 2, with Qualls at the 3, Dusty and Bell running the 2.... That's one heck of a lineup.

[SuperSid4Ever]

Unless the rules have changed, nobody on the coaching staff could have worked with him during the offseason, except during timeframes when organized practices were allowed.

[rwspear]

I'm dumbfounded by the idiocy of a lot of fans.
How can you call a guy 'improved' when he goes from 7 min/game to 28 min/game?  (don't have actual numbers, these are close enough)

He didn't even play last year !

He's getting to play this year. It's as simple as that. Yes, he showed flashes, plenty of them to me, to show that he was capable of this WHEN FINALLY GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY. For once, Swinesong and I agree on something. He showed the potential before, the flashes. He showed a nice jumper from mid-range. I am not surprised in the least at what he's doing. He was a Top 50 recruit, the best recruit MA has signed so far. He chose Ark over Fla and Louisville.

And I've said 100 times before...much of this so dreadfully cliche'd 'player development' happens on its own time. This is not a MA critique; I've said this over and over, any player/any coach. Guys get stronger...more comfortable in the college game...the game slows down...they develop emotionally. It's a natural process. Notice I didn't say coaches do nothing, I just think it's way overused by most people. Usually they can't name one specific coach or drill used to 'develop' a player. It's always just thrown out there as a vague generality.

In Moses's case, though, it's mostly about available playing time.

dumb. You don't automatically score points, block shots, and grab rebounds because you're on the floor.

[Arazorbackguy1]

Ray Biggers

He puts in at least 10-12 minutes a day.

[azhog10]

Unless the rules have changed, nobody on the coaching staff could have worked with him during the offseason, except during timeframes when organized practices were allowed.

This isn't true. You are allowed limited contact, and I'd have to try to locate how it's specifically worded but can not be with the head coach, and the size of the groups in the workouts can only be so big and limited to the amount of time of the workouts.

[Cinco de Hogo]

I don't know how many of ya'll played basketball but I can assure you that CMA doesn't work extensively with individual players on their personal skills.  The staff may help you set up a regimen that you follow during off-season but once practice starts its all about team and learning to work together on defense or defense.  These players spend hour of their own time honing their craft going to camps getting special instruction from former players, playing pickup game etc.  if you have problems with your shot even that is handled a lot of times by a specialist.

However it happened MK made it happen and I think it was just pure hard work on his part.

[HognitiveDissonance]

dumb. You don't automatically score points, block shots, and grab rebounds because you're on the floor.

I regret using the word 'idiocy'. Overreaction.
It's a valid question.

True. In this case, Moses is getting meaningful playing time and is 'the man'. He knows it. I'm glad another poster mentioned 'rhythm' because I should have said that as well. You're not really playing if you're coming in and out of the game for 1-2 minutes at a time, and have it add up to maybe 10 total. That was his routine in year 1 and year 2.

It's next to impossible to compare his year 1 and 2 production to this year and attribute it to anything. Playing time versus no meaningful playing time is not a comparison.

My main point was the overuse of the words 'player development'. In most cases, people are throwing it out in very general terms 'Player A is playing better now so these coaches are really developing them'. They never point to specific coaches and specific drills that are targeted to 'improve' that player. Like, Player A used to shoot 50% from the line but Coach so-and-so worked with him, changed his stance, changed his shooting motion, etc and now he's up to 68%'. Give me specifics.

No, most of the time this 'improvement' is happening on its own schedule. A guy naturally gets better from his frosh to senior year for a variety of reasons. Heck, I was the same way; I played my best ball as a senior too. I had more playing time and I felt more comfortable playing the game. I liked the coaches but I can't say it was anything they did at all.

[SuperSid4Ever]

This isn't true. You are allowed limited contact, and I'd have to try to locate how it's specifically worded but can not be with the head coach, and the size of the groups in the workouts can only be so big and limited to the amount of time of the workouts.

Okay, it used to be that the coaches couldn't conduct organized practices or scrimmages outside of certain published dates of the year, normally after the NCC was played.  That is largely how midnight madness started.

But I do think it raises a pretty good question of who brought Moses along during the offseason.  He's much improved for sure.

[bphi11ips]

I regret using the word 'idiocy'. Overreaction.
It's a valid question.

True. In this case, Moses is getting meaningful playing time and is 'the man'. He knows it. I'm glad another poster mentioned 'rhythm' because I should have said that as well. You're not really playing if you're coming in and out of the game for 1-2 minutes at a time, and have it add up to maybe 10 total. That was his routine in year 1 and year 2.

It's next to impossible to compare his year 1 and 2 production to this year and attribute it to anything. Playing time versus no meaningful playing time is not a comparison.

My main point was the overuse of the words 'player development'. In most cases, people are throwing it out in very general terms 'Player A is playing better now so these coaches are really developing them'. They never point to specific coaches and specific drills that are targeted to 'improve' that player. Like, Player A used to shoot 50% from the line but Coach so-and-so worked with him, changed his stance, changed his shooting motion, etc and now he's up to 68%'. Give me specifics.

No, most of the time this 'improvement' is happening on its own schedule. A guy naturally gets better from his frosh to senior year for a variety of reasons. Heck, I was the same way; I played my best ball as a senior too. I had more playing time and I felt more comfortable playing the game. I liked the coaches but I can't say it was anything they did at all.

With you here.  "Player development" reaches mythical proportion on Hogville. 

It's simple - coaching, practice, and time = "player development"

[elksnort]

I regret using the word 'idiocy'. Overreaction.
It's a valid question.

True. In this case, Moses is getting meaningful playing time and is 'the man'. He knows it. I'm glad another poster mentioned 'rhythm' because I should have said that as well. You're not really playing if you're coming in and out of the game for 1-2 minutes at a time, and have it add up to maybe 10 total. That was his routine in year 1 and year 2.

It's next to impossible to compare his year 1 and 2 production to this year and attribute it to anything. Playing time versus no meaningful playing time is not a comparison.

My main point was the overuse of the words 'player development'. In most cases, people are throwing it out in very general terms 'Player A is playing better now so these coaches are really developing them'. They never point to specific coaches and specific drills that are targeted to 'improve' that player. Like, Player A used to shoot 50% from the line but Coach so-and-so worked with him, changed his stance, changed his shooting motion, etc and now he's up to 68%'. Give me specifics.

No, most of the time this 'improvement' is happening on its own schedule. A guy naturally gets better from his frosh to senior year for a variety of reasons. Heck, I was the same way; I played my best ball as a senior too. I had more playing time and I felt more comfortable playing the game. I liked the coaches but I can't say it was anything they did at all.

I originally started this post, so I am to blame using the word "developed". I suppose I got caught up in cliche's and other trendy phrases.  I guess I could have simply asked, "How did Kingsley improve so much from last year?"
Then again, in one of your posts, you mention that, what happened is that he got more playing time, thus a greater chance for him to show what he can do. And I understand this too. It makes sense. I suppose that I am just amazed at his play this year and I did not expect it before the season started.
I really hope he will return next year.

[Swinesong1]

Just so I'm keeping up...Jump ball complains about Anderson not developing players until players improve. Then, Anderson has nothing to do with it.  Is that it?

[Cinco de Hogo]

Just so I'm keeping up...Jump ball complains about Anderson not developing players until players improve. Then, Anderson has nothing to do with it.  Is that it?

No I don't think that's it and I also think you know how players develop.  I'm a CMA fan but I also believe that while being part of a program is very instrumental, it's mostly the work you do on your own time that separates the men from the boys.  Some f that work is directed by the coaches some of it might come from other places.  Man, I've heard of so many ways and thing that players have done it's not even funny.  Maybe we should just ask MK!

[SooiecidetillNuttgone]

Mr. and Mrs. Kingsley?

[SooiecidetillNuttgone]

No I don't think that's it and I also think you know how players develop.  I'm a CMA fan but I also believe that while being part of a program is very instrumental, it's mostly the work you do on your own time that separates the men from the boys.  Some f that work is directed by the coaches some of it might come from other places.  Man, I've heard of so many ways and thing that players have done it's not even funny.  Maybe we should just ask MK!

Agree with this and Hognative Dissonance.

[azhog10]

Just so I'm keeping up...Jump ball complains about Anderson not developing players until players improve. Then, Anderson has nothing to do with it.  Is that it?

Yes, got it pretty close to spot on.

[azhog10]

No I don't think that's it and I also think you know how players develop.  I'm a CMA fan but I also believe that while being part of a program is very instrumental, it's mostly the work you do on your own time that separates the men from the boys.  Some f that work is directed by the coaches some of it might come from other places.  Man, I've heard of so many ways and thing that players have done it's not even funny.  Maybe we should just ask MK!

I agree that Kingsley had to put in the time or none of this happens. However I also beleive in Albert Einstein's definistion of insanity. So if MK was going out and routinely practicing the wrong thing, or doing things the wrong way. No matter how hard and how much he did that he would just get really good at doing things the wrong way. Changing the way you do things wrong, to doing them right takes direction more often than not. Someone had to give him direction (not saying I know who) on how to correct and improve his play and it was up to MK to work on that and get better. But doing things over and over and expecting a different result is insanity. I tell my kids all the time that practice does not make perfect. Practice makes permenant. Perfect practice makes perfect.

[wheelspigharvey]

Just so I'm keeping up...Jump ball complains about Anderson not developing players until players improve. Then, Anderson has nothing to do with it.  Is that it?

Also side-stepping the idea that if it's not development then it's recruiting and they sure as heck aren't going to give any cred there.

[TomBigBeeHog]

Just so I'm keeping up...Jump ball complains about Anderson not developing players until players improve. Then, Anderson has nothing to do with it.  Is that it?

Heard lots of this. There were even specific complaints such as big men not wanting to come here because of lack of development by coaching staff. I recall threads about how Mickelson could now make it to the NBA after being developed by Self and his staff.

Didn't bother to look up whether anyone in this thread made any of these comments and am not singling anyone out in my response so no need for any one to be defensive. Nevertheless, any long time reader of Jumpball will know this to be true.

So, yes. On Hogville, that is the case.

[Cinco de Hogo]

I agree that Kingsley had to put in the time or none of this happens. However I also beleive in Albert Einstein's definistion of insanity. So if MK was going out and routinely practicing the wrong thing, or doing things the wrong way. No matter how hard and how much he did that he would just get really good at doing things the wrong way. Changing the way you do things wrong, to doing them right takes direction more often than not. Someone had to give him direction (not saying I know who) on how to correct and improve his play and it was up to MK to work on that and get better. But doing things over and over and expecting a different result is insanity. I tell my kids all the time that practice does not make perfect. Practice makes permenant. Perfect practice makes perfect.

Can't argue with that although I still don't know who get credit for MK's development.  LOL! 

Actually I do!  In the end CMA and saff get the credit.

[sadhogfan]

Kingsley's career development through three seasons actually tracks very well with Mike Washington's. He's more athletic than Washington and a little taller, but the statistical similarities are significant.

Washington
FR: 8.5 MPG, 45.6 FG%, 60.9 FT%, 3.5 PPG, 1.6 RPG, 0.2 APG, 0.3 BPG, 0.2 SPG
SO: 13.4 MPG, 41.3 FG%, 62.3 FT%, 4.3 PPG, 3.9 RPG, 0.5 APG, 0.7 BPG, 0.3 SPG
JR: 30.0 MPG, 55.1 FG%, 60.2 %, 15.5 PPG, 9.8 RPG, 0.9 APG, 1.3 BPG, 1.0 SPG

Kingsley
FR: 11.5 MPG, 53.1 FG%, 65.1 FT%, 4.0 PPG, 3.2 RPG, 0.2 APG, 1.5 BPG, 0.4 SPG
SO: 10.9 MPG, 48.5 FG%, 62.3 FT%, 3.6 PPG, 2.5 RPG, 0.3 APG, 1.1 BPG, 0.4 SPG
JR: 29.3 MPG, 56.3 FG%, 68.8 FT%, 16.4 PPG, 9.2 RPG, 1.3 APG, 2.4 BPG, 1.1 SPG

As you can see, Kingsley is a significantly better shot-blocker and consistently shot a better percentage, but other than that, the numbers are strikingly similar, especially in their similar small roles as FR-SO followed by an explosive emergence as juniors.

Washington was similar to Kingsley in that he was still raw in many areas. Unfortunately, he regressed as a senior due to chronic back issues which really limited his athleticism and ability to perform. Barring injury, and depending on the scoring/players around him, I think Kingsley could have an outstanding senior season.

[hawgbawb]

I guess not, but I was just curious of what particular individual had worked with him. When is the last time you've seen a Razorback big man improve from one season to another so greatly?
I certainly hope he returns next season.

Maybe there's not a single person to give credit to, other than MK himself.

[fieldturf]

Moses should have played a lot more last year, but CMA had to play that ole boy from Little Rock that transferred from Houston.  Moses reminds me of a young Bill Russell!!

[MountieDawg]

Lets be honest, Kingsley was a 4 star recruit out of high school.... Should MA be praised for getting a 4 star player to finally give you good performance in year 3.  Maybe, but you could also ask why it took 3 years to develop a 4 star player...

[TomBigBeeHog]

Lets be honest, Kingsley was a 4 star recruit out of high school.... Should MA be praised for getting a 4 star player to finally give you good performance in year 3.  Maybe, but you could also ask why it took 3 years to develop a 4 star player...

He was developing while playing as a back up to a 5 star player. Plus, Kingsley is relatively new to the game. Some of his recruiting ranking was based on his upside based on his athletic ability. He still had to learn the fundamentals and the nuances of the game.

[TomBigBeeHog]

Lets be honest, Kingsley was a 4 star recruit out of high school.... Should MA be praised for getting a 4 star player to finally give you good performance in year 3. Maybe, but you could also ask why it took 3 years to develop a 4 star player...

Calimari is praised for developing 5 star cream of the crop players rated as the top players at their position in their class, so is Coach K and Self.

[HognitiveDissonance]

Also side-stepping the idea that if it's not development then it's recruiting and they sure as heck aren't going to give any cred there.

I only speak for myself.
I specifically gave MA credit for recruiting Kingsley. Said he was MA's best recruit, as he beat out Louisville and Florida for him. Top 50 player.
That's exactly the kind of thing that needs to happen more if MA wants to keep his job. Better recruiting.
Kingsley is finally getting a chance to play a lot and he's playing exactly as advertised...a Top 50 recruit.

[HognitiveDissonance]

Lets be honest, Kingsley was a 4 star recruit out of high school.... Should MA be praised for getting a 4 star player to finally give you good performance in year 3.  Maybe, but you could also ask why it took 3 years to develop a 4 star player...

I'm one of those who felt Kingsley should have played more, yes. I always liked what I saw from him.
But obviously he wasn't going to steal minutes away from Bobby Portis. So those minutes would have had to come elsewhere.
So it's a little of both. He probably needed more than 10 min/game, but not the 28 or whatever he's getting now.

[HognitiveDissonance]

Calimari is praised for developing 5 star cream of the crop players rated as the top players at their position in their class, so is Coach K and Self.

I don't hear that.
Seems most people here are intelligent enough to know you don't have to go to Kentucky to make the NBA, or even to be a 'one-and-done'.
But yes, these players seem to think Cal has a magical pipeline to get guys to the league. (actually it's their own ability doing that)

Speaking of Kentucky, and guys who actually stayed more than one year, the Harrison twins are a good example. They didn't look good when we beat them in Rupp in 2014. They played pretty well as frosh, got better towards the end of that year, then played even better as sophomores. I knew KY would be great last year because they had a typical batch of hot-shot freshmen, but the main thing was...............they had more returning players than usual.

But Cal didn't do anything to help the Harrison twins play better as sophomores, or more consistently. It's a very natural thing. Of course they were going to play better as sophomores. A year old, a year wiser, a year of experience, a little more mature physically and emotionally.

And that's what I'm saying: a coach has nothing to do with that.

You want to develop players? Go coach some sixth-graders. Teach them how to pass/dribble/shoot.
At this level, it's mostly about recruiting, teamwork, and motivation.

[Pork Twain]

Amazing the lack of respect MA gets from some of you......

Moses was highly rated and spent time practicing against one of our best.  I am sure that played a part in his natural development.  Mike is not exactly known for his big man development

[Wild Bill Hog]

I have to believe Kentucky and Duke players, in addition to the coaching they get, develop as they go along due to the talent they compete against in daily practices.  Having to compete against 4* and 5* guys on a daily basis makes for a much more developed player than going against 3* and walkon competition.

[TomBigBeeHog]

I have to believe Kentucky and Duke players, in addition to the coaching they get, develop as they go along due to the talent they compete against in daily practices.  Having to compete against 4* and 5* guys on a daily basis makes for a much more developed player than going against 3* and walkon competition.

Kingsley was going against Portis for 2 years in daily practices, in addition to the coaching he was getting.

[Wild Bill Hog]

Kingsley was going against Portis for 2 years in daily practices, in addition to the coaching he was getting.

Who else was going against comparable competition in practice though?

[OperationRestoreHawgBall]

Lolz! I found Jeff Long! 

Mike Anderson and the coaching staff with the help of having a practice facility for the player to put in extra time.