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He May Not Be the Guy

Started by NaturalStateReb, September 23, 2017, 04:36:32 pm

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Ugly Uncle

Quote from: ThisTeetsTaken on September 23, 2017, 04:56:38 pm
I don't know that our football program was in as bad a shape as people say it was when Bielema got here.  It sure wasn't a  3-9 kinda shape.  Petrino left him some good players. 

Everywhere BP has gone and left people complained about the talent or character of the players he left.  Both of those things are true.  Bobby was a genius offensive mind (that was better at putting together a defense than what people give him credit for) that ruled his team with fear.

What BP left were players that weren't next level guys (for the most part) and many of them had real character issues.  If you would have seen and heard of some of the things that were going on during the JLS regime, it would make your hair curl.  For whatever reason, so much of things that happened didn't get reported back then.  I think many in the media, including myself probably kept some things to ourselves as there was enough stupidity to report on from the coaching staff.

There was zero discipline on the team.  Players were doing whatever they wanted, coaches stopped caring, coaching and administrative positions were completely hapless.  It was a circus.

Bret came in and put his stamp on things.  When inmates have been running the asylum and the man comes in some didn't take it well.  His leadership and authority was questioned and challenged, but he kept calm and stayed the course.  It was very tough in that first year.  A real lack of talent and some of the older players not buying into the system was difficult.  Some weren't just bad players, they were also bad kids.  They just were.

Bret began recruiting players that had no character issues.  That was his goal.  We have some really high quality kids on campus.  Kids from great families, with good grades and will make fine citizens. 

Unfortunately, we hire a coach to win.  If you don't win it doesn't matter how good the kids are off the field.  I don't care what Jeff Long says, WINNING is why we pay tickets and go watch football games.  Good grades don't fill up a stadium.

So, that is my answer to that.


Quote from: LRrazorback on September 23, 2017, 05:09:14 pm
Dumb comment. We're much worse now than 5 years ago.  He's brought us down, we can't afford another year of CBB.

I'm sorry that you disagree with me, but you are wrong.  We are much better off as a program and we do have much more talent now than we did 5 years ago.

Truthfully we need a few less choir boys and more tough street kids that are fighters.  That might sound strange coming from me, but as my good friend Byron Jenkins once told me, "You gotta have some players that have some dog in them."

I thought Bret had some dog in him...I no longer think he does.  I don't think we have many players...though talented...that have some dog in them.  Guys that will fight back when punched in the mouth. 

But, you are welcomed to you opinion...this is just mine.
Retired Radio Host

Wild Bill Hog

Quote from: Atlhogfan1 on September 23, 2017, 05:04:51 pm
https://athlonsports.com/college-football/sec-coaches-talk-anonymously-about-conference-foes-2013

"Arkansas
Opposing coaches size up the Razorbacks: 

"They are going to be terrible. What they are doing now, it's the product of bad recruiting. They have a long way to go. That's nothing against the new coach (Bret Bielema). But they are going to be terrible in Year 1 5." ...

FIFY

 

ShadowHawg

Quote from: Ched "UglyUncle" Carpenter on September 23, 2017, 04:59:11 pm
These team...the players, the recruits, the whole atmosphere of the program was a wreck.  He came into a situation that was a death trap.  We lost 2 years in recruiting, and a third was damaged by the one year of JLS.  I was proud of the job he did, and a weaker minded coach could not have pulled that off.  He had a strong steady hand and put things in order.  I am proud of the job he did to resurrect this program.

However, I don't believe he is the man to take us any further.  We are what we are, and will be just this, as long as he is here.

The program was in worse shape when Petrino got here. Joe Adams was going to USC and Tyler Wilson was going to Tulsa. The atmosphere after Petrino was never even close to being worse than what Nutt left behind. How could anyone forget that mess? Players pissing in drinks on planes, terrible grades, etc.

The talent was awful but quickly offset by a top 20 recruiting class in Petrino's first full season. The program was completely divided.

It's ridiculous to act like CBB came into uncharted territory here.

Tim

Quote from: Wild Bill Hog on September 24, 2017, 12:17:03 am
FIFY
It is almost like I didn't do the exact same thing one page earlier. 

hoghearted

I seem to recall there being a couple of Nutt era players kicked off the team in Petrino's first year. Something about some water bottles.....?

With 85 young men who have had no discipline from the top, it is logical that reining them back in will take some doing.
It really is this simple. Unchecked government power leads to corruption, and lack of accountability for it is drastically eroding confidence in our institutions.    aristotle

The_Iceman

Quote from: ThisTeetsTaken on September 23, 2017, 04:56:38 pm
I don't know that our football program was in as bad a shape as people say it was when Bielema got here.  It sure wasn't a  3-9 kinda shape.  Petrino left him some good players.

I want Bielema fired, but this idea ridiculous take. He may have had a decent player or two, but as a team, he was left nothing.

No development, bad attitudes, no recruiting for about 3 seasons before he got here, and players build for the wrong system.

Porkys Revenge

The whole "no talent when he got here" stuff is so lame. Just stop.

hogcard1964

Quote from: NaturalStateReb on September 23, 2017, 04:36:32 pm
But in a lot of ways Bret Bielema has been good for Arkansas. He seems like a fairly decent guy, and just because it didn't work out here doesn't mean he can't be successful elsewhere. However it turns out, wish him the best.

He's further destroyed the program.  As soon as Petrino's recruits were gone, the program has spiraled.  He needs to be fired tomorrow.

Darren DeLoach

Quote from: hogcard1964 on September 24, 2017, 08:03:06 am
He's further destroyed the program.  As soon as Petrino's recruits were gone, the program has spiraled.  He needs to be fired tomorrow.

Fire him now and then what?  Watch many of our recruits that we do have go elsewhere?  Unless he does a Petrino like act, he should never be fired mid season.

And he has built the infrastructure that another will benefit from. He can't get us over the hump so he will not be here much longer. But he has done more for this football program than  BP ever did. BP is a program killer.
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jkstock04

Quote from: Hook 'em Hogs on September 23, 2017, 07:13:15 pm
He's recruited to our normal level if not a little better. He has added stability.  I know everyone laughs at credibility, integrity and character and that sort of thing, but it matters.  I believe Bielema has built a solid foundation. I just don't think he can get the staff/coaching we need to get over the hump. Whoever comes in after Bielema will have a much better shot of being successful than Bielema did. It's okay to believe that Bielema has given his very best to the program and the state even if he has fallen short.  He hasn't been lazy. He hasn't been a jerk. Bielema has been a good middle man for a time period between dumpster fire JLS and our next hire. 

For the record, if he's given another year, I hope he makes us all eat crow.  Good luck Coach B.
With all respect, most of this just sounds like company line jargon. There is no real substance to this post. This is Jeff Long slogan type material.

"Added stability" this sounds great on a resume but can you even tell me exactly what this means?

"Credibility, integrity, character"

"Solid foundation"

This just sounds like feely good offseason spin spin spin. Be honest, it doesn't really mean anything. It's just slogans...window dressing used as a diversion to what is happening with actual football.

You do bring up one point that I have seen argued both ways. Common "knowledge" about Bielema is that if anyone else ever takes over after him there won't be any rebuild because his teams are stacked with upperclassmen therefore we just reload and don't rebuild. Unfortunately, this isn't really true...or doesn't look like it to me. Take a look at the O-line.
Thanks for the F Shack. 

Love,

Dirty Mike and the Boys

jkstock04

Quote from: Darren DeLoach (semohawg) on September 24, 2017, 09:58:48 am
Fire him now and then what?  Watch many of our recruits that we do have go elsewhere?  Unless he does a Petrino like act, he should never be fired mid season.

And he has built the infrastructure that another will benefit from. He can't get us over the hump so he will not be here much longer. But he has done more for this football program than  BP ever did. BP is a program killer.
It's crazy to see you guys still playing this card. There is more slogan material. "Infrastructure"

It's wild to me how different fans can view things. In your eyes Bielema has taken this program to heights Petrino never dreamed of. I see it the exact opposite.

You are one of the guys on here that has really hammered people over the years questioning Bielemas coaching ability. What's becoming obvious to me is that 99% of the stuff you guys have been saying over and over the past few years is dead wrong.
Thanks for the F Shack. 

Love,

Dirty Mike and the Boys

Silver Hog

"If you would have seen and heard of some of the things that were going on during the JLS regime, it would make your hair curl."

have any good ones to tell now that BP edited isn't coming back?

DeltaBoy

Quote from: Ched "UglyUncle" Carpenter on September 23, 2017, 04:39:31 pm
I REALLY like Bret.  He has done a lot for our program.  People don't understand what bad shape our program was in when he got here.  A lesser coach could have never brought us up out of that.

That being said...he has lost me.

I respect the guy, but I don't believe he can get us there. 

I wish him the best, but it is time for him to go.
Amen UU
If the South should lose, it means that the history of the heroic struggle will be written by the enemy, that our youth will be trained by Northern school teachers, will be impressed by all of the influences of history and education to regard our gallant dead as traitors and our maimed veterans as fit subjects for derision.
-- Major General Patrick Cleburne
The Confederacy had no better soldiers
than the Arkansans--fearless, brave, and oftentimes courageous beyond
prudence. Dickart History of Kershaws Brigade.

 

Darren DeLoach

Quote from: jkstock04 on September 24, 2017, 02:13:26 pm
It's crazy to see you guys still playing this card. There is more slogan material. "Infrastructure"

It's wild to me how different fans can view things. In your eyes Bielema has taken this program to heights Petrino never dreamed of. I see it the exact opposite.

You are one of the guys on here that has really hammered people over the years questioning Bielemas coaching ability. What's becoming obvious to me is that 99% of the stuff you guys have been saying over and over the past few years is dead wrong.

As someone that knows the parents of various recruits that did and some that did not sign with Arkansas over the two regimens in question, I can without question tell you that BP destroyed all credibility we had on the recruiting trail. In state and Oklahoma were damaged, but Texas was very nearly lost altogether. He was forced to take chances on athletes that were shady at best. He resorts to hiring family for high-level assistant jobs because he poisoned any relationships within the coaching community, which weakens his ability to govern the players or build recruiting bases. BB restored all of the scorched earth left by Petrino. Petrino is an absolute genius at offensive schemes and restructuring his offense in accordance to his talent. He very well may be twice the gameday coach as BB.  And, BB has not gotten the wins to keep his job, that is undeniable. Change is coming. Hope they find the right fit.
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IMABIELEMA

He has literally not done one good thing for Arkansas on the field.  He might have done some OK things off the field,  but who the hell cares.  Arkansas pays him to win football games, everything else is bonus.

Darren DeLoach

Quote from: IMABIELEMA on September 24, 2017, 09:36:30 pm
He has literally not done one good thing for Arkansas on the field.  He might have done some OK things off the field,  but who the hell cares.  Arkansas pays him to win football games, everything else is bonus.

This isn't 1977 any longer, but go ahead, and think that wins and losses are the totality of what makes a high-level college football coach. He hasn't won enough here, so it looks like he will be gone, so that should make you happy. Hope we can find that guy we all support. Won't happen, but I hope it does.

ο λογος υμων παντοτε εν χαριτι αλατι ηρτυμενος ειδεναι πως δει υμας ενι εκαστω αποκρινεσθαι

Granny fan

I think he is a good person, not a good coach.....at least at Arkansas.  He does not need to be here after this year.  Don't see us making a bowl game, so just pull the trigger after Thanksgiving.

Piggfoot

I like CBB and would like for him to stay. He is a great CEO coach and takes care of the program.
What we need is a complete redo of the assistant coaches. Every assistant coach including coordinators need to first be evaluated for his ability to identify with athletes and their families in SEC states. Those coaches need to attract and be able to bring those players to Arkansas.
Quite honestly, I believe we have too many Midwest and Northern coaches.
If we were in the big 12 those coaches would be fine because we would be going after a different base of recruits.
Hog fan since 1960. So thankful for Sam Pittman.

MushroomCloudHog

You put dan Enos and sam Pittman together...we compete in the SEC. But when Cheney left...he should have offered Pittman the OC position.  I don't blame it on Enos. But, I am confident that our offensive line would have been much better which you must have in any conference you play in. Brets mistake happened 2 years ago

MushroomCloudHog

Quote from: MushroomCloudHog on September 25, 2017, 12:08:26 am
You put dan Enos and sam Pittman together...we compete in the SEC. But when Cheney left...he should have offered Pittman the OC position which logic says he would have accepted.   I don't blame it on Enos. But, I am confident that our offensive line would have been much better which you must have in any conference you play in. Brets mistake happened 2 years ago

PorkSoda

Quote from: majp51 on September 23, 2017, 04:53:03 pm
Look at the absolute Dumspter Fire Louisville was till Charlie Strong got there.

Regardless of what you think of CBP as a coach, he uses specific types of players which for the most part do not properly translate to other coaches. That being said, Year 4 and 5 lost me, because at that point even the Curse of CBP's recruiting is no longer a real issue.
you lost me when you think CBPs players were an excuse and not the reason we did as well as we did.

I know having Trey Flowers, wise, hatcher, philon, sprinkle, winston, Williams, etc just sucked.

oh and by the way, Strong took over for Kragthorpe at Louisville, not petrino.  where is kragthorpe now?
"I became insane, with long intervals of horrible sanity." ― Edgar Allan Poe
"If quantum mechanics hasn't profoundly shocked you, you haven't understood it yet. Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real." – Niels Bohr
"A mind stretched to a new idea, never returns to its original dimensions" ~ Oliver Wendell Holmes
Quote from: PonderinHog on August 07, 2023, 06:37:15 pmYeah, we're all here, but we ain't all there.

GoHogs1091

Quote from: MushroomCloudHog on September 25, 2017, 12:08:26 am
You put dan Enos and sam Pittman together...we compete in the SEC. But when Cheney left...he should have offered Pittman the OC position.  I don't blame it on Enos. But, I am confident that our offensive line would have been much better which you must have in any conference you play in. Brets mistake happened 2 years ago

Actually a big mistake Bielema made was right after he got here, and that mistake was him not keeping Steve Caldwell.

Caldwell recruited and landed Trey Flowers and Darius Philon.  Caldwell was the only one who had significant prior SEC recruiting experience.

wachhog

Quote from: Piggfoot on September 24, 2017, 11:44:45 pm
I like CBB and would like for him to stay. He is a great CEO coach and takes care of the program.
What we need is a complete redo of the assistant coaches. Every assistant coach including coordinators need to first be evaluated for his ability to identify with athletes and their families in SEC states. Those coaches need to attract and be able to bring those players to Arkansas.
Quite honestly, I believe we have too many Midwest and Northern coaches.
If we were in the big 12 those coaches would be fine because we would be going after a different base of recruits.
A great CEO? My gosh, are you drink?

31to6

Quote from: wachhog on September 25, 2017, 12:54:33 am
A great CEO? My gosh, are you drink?
Agree.

Bret is a CEO-style coach. But he lacks some of the critical attributes of a great CEO.

First, he is clearly of merely average intelligence. The more he talks, the clearer it becomes that he is just parroting what others have said. He has a "formula" and he has faith in that formula. He is not brilliant enough to be adaptable to new realities and situations in his thinking, which makes him inflexible and predictable. (It also explains why he gets outcoached in the second half so consistently.) Also, I suspect that he is a "plodding thinker" who likes to collect all the data and then make decisions. That is why he so often appears lost and detached on the sidelines--which results in mind-boggling decisions like kicking the ball short when protecting a 3 point lead or not take advantage of a first half possession in a one-score game.

Second, he very clearly wants everyone to like him. Sometimes the CEO has to be an SOB. You can still care, and you can still command loyalty, but you have to set that aside when your lieutenants are not getting the job done and your leaders are tolerating sloppiness.

Third, he appears incapable of consistenly hiring well and compounds that by waiting too long to make a change. He let Rory Segrest wreck the DL for two years, when one should have been enough. Ditto CKA. Hell, CKA seems to be a great guy to hang out with and have a beer. But he is not doing his job well--and it is a job on which the entire gameplan on both sides of the ball is dependent.

So, agree. NOT a great CEO. Just an average one--in a league with competition levels like no other.

 

hawgon

Yeah, he is definitely a plodding thinker.  He seems to think that it is impossible to make changes until you have an off week.  Petrino used to make bigger changes to a game plan within a game than Bielema does in weeks between games.

Piggfoot

Quote from: wachhog on September 25, 2017, 12:54:33 am
A great CEO? My gosh, are you drink???

No I'm not drunk. I also don't know what his budget is in hiring Asssistants. Nor do I know how hard it is to get assisiants to come to a sinking program. Unless the team is turned around they may sink with it even though they like Bielema may have come from a good program.
I do think when a new assistant is hired, he may or may not have an in on recruiting, he may not have had time to develop contacts in this area.
As far as Andersons coaching goes, I think the issue is talent at the tackle position. Our tackles can not stop the opposing teams ends. That is talent not coaching.
This lack of talent goes all the way back to Pittman. Even though we recruited 4 stars they haven't worked out.
Hog fan since 1960. So thankful for Sam Pittman.

hawgon

Quote from: Piggfoot on September 25, 2017, 09:00:44 am

As far as Andersons coaching goes, I think the issue is talent at the tackle position. Our tackles can not stop the opposing teams ends. That is talent not coaching.
This lack of talent goes all the way back to Pittman. Even though we recruited 4 stars they haven't worked out.

Anderson and the offensive line are prime examples of what is wrong with Bielema.  Look, unless you are Nick Saban, every coach in America has limitations caused by talent issues.  So what do you do?  You take the best you can put out there and you learn to work around player limitations as best you can.  You find the things they can and can't do and you plan accordingly.

Is that what we do on the offensive line?  No.  In our third game, four weeks into the season, after a bye week our offensive line looked like a game of musical chairs.  We still haven't even identified the best players and we are shuffling them around to different positions as if we hope that one combination will magically work.  And all of this, WITHOUT changing up our play calling to address the protection issues.

We're paying $4 million a year for this crap show.

Razorbackers

Quote from: farmhawg on September 23, 2017, 05:02:56 pm
Bs, it wasn't the mess everyone says, the only mess was long with smiley.

this is false

TNRazorbacker

Quote from: 31to6 on September 25, 2017, 08:27:53 am
Agree.

Bret is a CEO-style coach. But he lacks some of the critical attributes of a great CEO.

First, he is clearly of merely average intelligence. The more he talks, the clearer it becomes that he is just parroting what others have said. He has a "formula" and he has faith in that formula. He is not brilliant enough to be adaptable to new realities and situations in his thinking, which makes him inflexible and predictable. (It also explains why he gets outcoached in the second half so consistently.) Also, I suspect that he is a "plodding thinker" who likes to collect all the data and then make decisions. That is why he so often appears lost and detached on the sidelines--which results in mind-boggling decisions like kicking the ball short when protecting a 3 point lead or not take advantage of a first half possession in a one-score game.

Second, he very clearly wants everyone to like him. Sometimes the CEO has to be an SOB. You can still care, and you can still command loyalty, but you have to set that aside when your lieutenants are not getting the job done and your leaders are tolerating sloppiness.

Third, he appears incapable of consistenly hiring well and compounds that by waiting too long to make a change. He let Rory Segrest wreck the DL for two years, when one should have been enough. Ditto CKA. Hell, CKA seems to be a great guy to hang out with and have a beer. But he is not doing his job well--and it is a job on which the entire gameplan on both sides of the ball is dependent.

So, agree. NOT a great CEO. Just an average one--in a league with competition levels like no other.

Great assessment. Particularly the part about the type of thinker he is and that he leans on that heavily rather than an intuitive feel for the game. I think this also speaks largely to our common pattern of play during games. Great first half team that almost always looks well prepared with a solid game plan. They've clearly scouted the opposing team well and know what will work.

Then the other team adjusts, Brett gets that dazed and confused look duck lipped look, and the wheels proceed to fall off completely. 

This is what Petrino was masterful at. Not only was he an excellent X's and O's guy who prepared very well, he was also a highly intuitive about naking adjustments. He'd see what the defense was doing and know instinctively how to beat it.  He was an A-hole who deserved the firing but don't ever think the man wasn't a football prodigy.

jkstock04

Quote from: 31to6 on September 25, 2017, 08:27:53 am
Agree.

Bret is a CEO-style coach. But he lacks some of the critical attributes of a great CEO.

First, he is clearly of merely average intelligence. The more he talks, the clearer it becomes that he is just parroting what others have said. He has a "formula" and he has faith in that formula. He is not brilliant enough to be adaptable to new realities and situations in his thinking, which makes him inflexible and predictable. (It also explains why he gets outcoached in the second half so consistently.) Also, I suspect that he is a "plodding thinker" who likes to collect all the data and then make decisions. That is why he so often appears lost and detached on the sidelines--which results in mind-boggling decisions like kicking the ball short when protecting a 3 point lead or not take advantage of a first half possession in a one-score game.

Second, he very clearly wants everyone to like him. Sometimes the CEO has to be an SOB. You can still care, and you can still command loyalty, but you have to set that aside when your lieutenants are not getting the job done and your leaders are tolerating sloppiness.

Third, he appears incapable of consistenly hiring well and compounds that by waiting too long to make a change. He let Rory Segrest wreck the DL for two years, when one should have been enough. Ditto CKA. Hell, CKA seems to be a great guy to hang out with and have a beer. But he is not doing his job well--and it is a job on which the entire gameplan on both sides of the ball is dependent.

So, agree. NOT a great CEO. Just an average one--in a league with competition levels like no other.
I keep noticing these catch phrases/slogans and am beginning to realize they are just semi important sounding words that actually mean nothing. "Formula", "infrastructure", "the right way". It's all a bunch of BS that sounds great but means nothing.
Thanks for the F Shack. 

Love,

Dirty Mike and the Boys

hawgon

Quote from: TNRazorbacker on September 25, 2017, 09:24:43 am
Great assessment. Particularly the part about the type of thinker he is and that he leans on that heavily rather than an intuitive feel for the game. I think this also speaks largely to our common pattern of play during games. Great first half team that almost always looks well prepared with a solid game plan. They've clearly scouted the opposing team well and know what will work.

Then the other team adjusts, Brett gets that dazed and confused look duck lipped look, and the wheels proceed to fall off completely. 

This is what Petrino was masterful at. Not only was he an excellent X's and O's guy who prepared very well, he was also a highly intuitive about naking adjustments. He'd see what the defense was doing and know instinctively how to beat it.  He was an A-hole who deserved the firing but don't ever think the man wasn't a football prodigy.

It isn't just intelligence.  There is preparation and then there is preparation.  It is one level to be prepared and to have a game plan.  It is another to be prepared enough to have a plan after the game plan.

That is to say, we should be prepared enough to anticipate how the other team will most likely adjust and then have a plan for that...or two or three based on different adjustments they might make.

All that takes an EXTREME amount of work by the staff and excruciating attention to detail.  This staff isn't putting in the work.  It is that simple.