What is the importance?

[Hogtimes]

Ricepig,  I think the linked article just  makes my point.  Arkansas Non -Resident Scholarships and the fact that in state tuition at the UA  is $9,000 vs  $22,000 for out of state tuition says it all. 

Say what you want...I have debated this with you long enough.  You have  your views and I have mine and the readers can choose what they believe.

[ricepig]

Ricepig,  I think the linked article just  makes my point.  Arkansas Non -Resident Scholarships and the fact that in state tuition at the UA  is $9,000 vs  $22,000 for out of state tuition says it all. 

Say what you want...I have debated this long enough.  You have  your views and I have mine and the readers can choose what they believe.

Obviously the administration and the legislature don't see it as a negative or drain on the budget. I suspect those students and their parents bring in a lot of sales tax revenue which pays for these "scholarships" .

You do know the funding for higher education is now going to be based on % of students who graduate?

[Nashville Fan]

What facts?  I spoke  in general terms.   If you think figures published by the State Legislature tell the full story that is up to you.   If you want to believe that the taxpayers do not take a beating on out of state  students who do not pay the out of state tuition that is also up to you.  90% is a lot.

Also, tuition is not the only cost to be concerned about.   Nashville Fan mentioned fixed costs.  As i said before, additional students mean more classrooms, more housing, more faculty, more labs etc.
The example of empty airline seats is faulty.   When you start adding students at some point there is not enough classroom seats,  faculty to teach added sections etc.   So at some point you have to add more.   In the airplane example, at some point you have to add an additional flight.  If a plane (classroom) seats 100 and you have 110 flyers (students)  you have to add a plane (classroom) and crew at a huge cost.  Flying a plane with only 10 passengers is not economical.

In the 1980's,  the State schools in Texas were experiencing a large increase in student enrollments.  Texas was faced with the huge cost of building new classrooms, housing etc. and adding more faculty.   As result, they determined it would be more cost effective to "pay" students to attend the private schools.  So the State Legislature implemented what was called Tuition Equalization Grants to students that attended private schools.   Basically, they paid the difference in the student's cost to attend a private school  as opposed to enrolling at one of the State schools.

Of course they no longer have to do that, maybe because States like Arkansas make it economically  feasible possible for those student to go out of state.  A year or so ago I read a report (Sorry Ricepig I do not recall where, you can believe me or not)   that showed a student in Kansas could attend UA for less money than attending the University of Kansas.

I am not bashing or degrading the University of Arkansas.   All colleges  are very self serving.  the more students they get, the more revenue they receive.  It makes the Administrators resume look good.  That is why they offer worthless degrees. A few years ago the Governor of North Carolina urged the State Legislature to force the state  colleges to keep records that showed that their grads were getting jobs in their chosen fields....if not  they would have to discontinue offering those degrees.

Finally, if you are wiling to have your tax dollars educate out of state students, many/most of which will find jobs elsewehre (Texas) that is up to you.

If you read the 2018 budget, and crunch your own numbers instead of reading some politicians math that has an agenda, you can clearly see why the University does what it does.

http://www.arkleg.state.ar.us/assembly/2017/Agency%20Budget%20Summaries/2017R/0135.pdf

The State only funds around $170.2MM for the University of Arkansas at Fayetteville after Federal Funding and Tobacco funding. With a rounded 2018 enrollment of 28,000, the state is only funding $6,079 per enrolled student at UofA Fayetteville.

In State tuition alone is $9,062, add in Room and Board of $10,704, books and supplies of $1,046, and other expenses of $4,104. The typical out of state student gives the University $24,916 or 4X the funding that the State gives per Student.

[Hogtimes]

Obviously the administration and the legislature don't see it as a negative or drain on the budget. I suspect those students and their parents bring in a lot of sales tax revenue which pays for these "scholarships" .

You do know the funding for higher education is now going to be based on % of students who graduate?

Well I said I was done, but your comment that obviously the administration does not see it as a negative, I  cannot let pass..   Why should they...good grief they are receiving the revenue.  Plus, it would take a lot of purchases  by the students and  visiting parents for the sales tax revenue to come to $13,000 per year to pay for those out of state scholarships you mention.   That amount being the difference between  in state and out of  state tuition.  But believe what you wish. 

Yes, I am aware of  funding based on graduation % rates.    However, funding based on graduation rates is not much good if the colleges continue to graduate majors with degrees that are worthless.  For those who read "worthless degrees" as a slam on all the  University degrees, is not what I am saying.  I am  talking about  offering majors in fields of study that have no market value.  In other words the graduates cannot find  a job.

As former Secretary of Education, Bill Bennett recently advised students....."get a degree in engineering and you can get a good job".

[Hogtimes]

If you read the 2018 budget, and crunch your own numbers instead of reading some politicians math that has an agenda, you can clearly see why the University does what it does.

http://www.arkleg.state.ar.us/assembly/2017/Agency%20Budget%20Summaries/2017R/0135.pdf

The State only funds around $170.2MM for the University of Arkansas at Fayetteville after Federal Funding and Tobacco funding. With a rounded 2018 enrollment of 28,000, the state is only funding $6,079 per enrolled student at UofA Fayetteville.

In State tuition alone is $9,062, add in Room and Board of $10,704, books and supplies of $1,046, and other expenses of $4,104. The typical out of state student gives the University $24,916 or 4X the funding that the State gives per Student.

Thank you sir, you  just substantiated what I have been saying.   I am quoting you as follows:

"the state is only funding $6,079 per enrolled student at the UofA Fayetteville.  In state tuition alone is $9,062".   

Based on your figures,  the State (taxpayers)  is funding approximately 2/3 of the tuition cost to educate the student.   One of the first things I said in this thread,  is that  the typical student only pays for about 1/3 of their tuition cost to educate them.  The State or taxpayers pay 2/3.  (Ricepig questioned that, so thank you for your numbers.)
 
As for Room and Board and other expenses,  the student does not 'give' the University anything.  They pay or reimburse the University for what they get...a room,  food, books etc.  Many students live off campus, so do not confuse living costs with tuition costs.  I assume by other expenses, you refer to  out of pocket costs.  While all of these are real costs, they are extracurricular.

BTW  I have not been  reading some politicians  math  that has an agenda. Quite  the contrary, I have been condemning the politicians for letting all of this happen.

[elviscat]

***Relationships***** It means we have a shot at a lot of Texas recruit, where in the past we passed people off.

[ricepig]

Thank you sir, you  just substantiated what I have been saying.   I am quoting you as follows:

"the state is only funding $6,079 per enrolled student at the UofA Fayetteville.  In state tuition alone is $9,062".   

Based on your figures,  the State (taxpayers)  is funding approximately 2/3 of the tuition cost to educate the student.   The first thing I said in this thread  is that  the typical student only pays for about 1/3 of their tuition cost to educate them.  The State or taxpayers pay 2/3.  (Ricepig questioned that, so thank you for your numbers.)
 
As for Room and Board and other expenses,  the student does not 'give' the University anything.  They pay or reimburse the University for what they get...a room,  food, books etc.  Many student live of campus, so do not confuse living costs with tuition costs.  I assume by other expenses you refer to  out of pocket costs.  While all these are real costs they are extracurricular.

BTW  I have not been  reading some politicians  math  that has an agenda. Quite  the contrary, I have been condemning the politicians for letting all of this happen.

So, is it your premise that the annual cost per student is based on our of state tuition? The cost of running the University is in their budget, $290m from tuition, $170m from the state.

[oldhawg]

Interesting discussion.

Charging in-state tuition to out-of-state students appears to be a fairly commonly practiced policy as this article in Kiplinger cites.

https://www.kiplinger.com/article/college/T042-C011-S003-get-in-state-tuition-at-out-of-state-colleges.html 

Could be that Arkansas is just trying to compete with other states for the student population?

[ricepig]

Well I said I was done, but your comment that obviously the administration does not see it as a negative, I  cannot let pass..   Why should they...good grief they are receiving the revenue.  Plus, it would take a lot of purchases  by the students and  visiting parents for the sales tax revenue to come to $13,000 per year to pay for those out of state scholarships you mention.   That amount being the difference between  in state and out of  state tuition.  But believe what you wish. 

Yes, I am aware of  funding based on graduation % rates.    However, funding based on graduation rates is not much good if the colleges continue to graduate majors with degrees that are worthless.  For those who read "worthless degrees" as a slam on all the  University degrees, is not what I am saying.  I am  talking about  offering majors in fields of study that have no market value.  In other words the graduates cannot find  a job.

As former Secretary of Education, Bill Bennett recently advised students....."get a degree in engineering and you can get a good job".

Can't everyone be an engineer, is your name Hester? Who decided what degrees are worthwhile, and which are worthless?

[010HogFan]

The correct answer:  It doesn't mean much at all.  Imagine a Texas high school coach telling national championship winning Jimbo Fisher to wait in the lobby because an old Texas high coach is here too.  Besides, if he kicked those Texas high school coaches asses, they may not be eager to help him.

It will help in that Morris has motivation to recruit talent rich Texas because it is home, but I don't think any elite prospect gets steered to Arkansas over Texas, Oklahoma, or Texas A&M.  That seems pretty silly.

Really silly post and a bad example to boot. I heard that Jimbo has already made all of them mad because he met with 7 on 7 "select team" coaches before he met with any HS coaches. A&M just did what we did when we hired Bielema, got a guy with no connections to the surrounding area and expect him to sustain the level of success he had elsewhere.

[Hogtimes]

So, is it your premise that the annual cost per student is based on our of state tuition? The cost of running the University is in their budget, $290m from tuition, $170m from the state.

No.   The  infrastructure such as libraries, student unions, etc., plus other support did not just happen.  The premise is that Arkansas state taxpayers,  the families of in state students, mostly  paid for them.   The families of out of state students  paid nothing.    In my view that is part of the difference in out of state and in state tuition.

[Hogtimes]

Can't everyone be an engineer, is your name Hester? Who decided what degrees are worthwhile, and which are worthless?

It is really very simple, the market place decides what degrees are worthwhile.

[prattville pig]

Where do these people come from?

[ricepig]

It is really very simple, the market place decides what degrees are worthwhile.

And the market place is constantly changing.

[ricepig]

No.   The  infrastructure such as libraries, student unions, etc., plus other support did not just happen.  The premise is that Arkansas state taxpayers,  the families of in state students, mostly  paid for them.   The families of out of state students  paid nothing.    In my view that is part of the difference in out of state and in state tuition.

Correct, they are mostly paid for by bond issues paid with tuition and student fees, and additionally with naming "donations".

[Grizzlyfan]

Someone told me the other day that all these out of state students being recruited with in-state tuition are required, after their first year, to maintain 3.?? GPA AND a minimum of 15 hours per semester to keep that tuition benefit.  And a huge % of them don't maintain those requirements and then divert back to out of state tuition.  But by this time they have joined their fraternities and sororities and made their friends so mom and dad just start ponying up the out of state tuition.

Any truth to this?

[ricepig]

Someone told me the other day that all these out of state students being recruited with in-state tuition are required, after their first year, to maintain 3.?? GPA AND a minimum of 15 hours per semester to keep that tuition benefit.  And a huge % of them don't maintain those requirements and then divert back to out of state tuition.  But by this time they have joined their fraternities and sororities and made their friends so mom and dad just start ponying up the out of state tuition.

Any truth to this?

"Students must complete 24 or more hours per academic year and maintain a 2.75 or higher cumulative GPA to renew the New Arkansan Non-Resident Tuition Award Scholarship. See the NRTA Renewal page for more specific criteria."

https://scholarships.uark.edu/nrta/index.php

[Nashville Fan]

Thank you sir, you  just substantiated what I have been saying.   I am quoting you as follows:

"the state is only funding $6,079 per enrolled student at the UofA Fayetteville.  In state tuition alone is $9,062".   

Based on your figures,  the State (taxpayers)  is funding approximately 2/3 of the tuition cost to educate the student.   One of the first things I said in this thread,  is that  the typical student only pays for about 1/3 of their tuition cost to educate them.  The State or taxpayers pay 2/3.  (Ricepig questioned that, so thank you for your numbers.)
 
As for Room and Board and other expenses,  the student does not 'give' the University anything.  They pay or reimburse the University for what they get...a room,  food, books etc.  Many students live off campus, so do not confuse living costs with tuition costs.  I assume by other expenses, you refer to  out of pocket costs.  While all of these are real costs, they are extracurricular.

BTW  I have not been  reading some politicians  math  that has an agenda. Quite  the contrary, I have been condemning the politicians for letting all of this happen.

Not what I am saying at all. The state is funding the $6K to promote math and other things that they have been lobbied for like poultry science. What I am saying is that if you only get 6K from the state to promote their agenda and you get 24K from an out of state student with no agenda, which one would you pick? Out of state student any day.

Plus your math is very poor. The state only funds about 1/10 of the budget of the university according to the university budget. Even if your premise was correct 6+9=15. 6/15 is not 66% but 40%. But since your premise is faulty, the other 30% the university makes doing all the things that you say students don't give. Well at least that is what the 2018 university budget states.

[Hogtimes]

Not what I am saying at all. The state is funding the $6K to promote math and other things that they have been lobbied for like poultry science. What I am saying is that if you only get 6K from the state to promote their agenda and you get 24K from an out of state student with no agenda, which one would you pick? Out of state student any day.

Plus your math is very poor. The state only funds about 1/10 of the budget of the university according to the university budget. Even if your premise was correct 6+9=15. 6/15 is not 66% but 40%. But since your premise is faulty, the other 30% the university makes doing all the things that you say students don't give. Well at least that is what the 2018 university budget states.

Sorry, no offense intended to a fellow hog, but your post makes no sense.to me.   Are you by chance related to Casey Stengel?.......Just kidding.

[Grizzlyfan]

"Students must complete 24 or more hours per academic year and maintain a 2.75 or higher cumulative GPA to renew the New Arkansan Non-Resident Tuition Award Scholarship. See the NRTA Renewal page for more specific criteria."

https://scholarships.uark.edu/nrta/index.php

So the criteria for keeping the in state tuition wasn't as stringent as he told me.  I would think a decent # lose the benefit after their first year.

[ricepig]

So the criteria for keeping the in state tuition wasn't as stringent as he told me.  I would think a decent # lose the benefit after their first year.

Probably those that wash out anyway.

[HogFoo]

It is really very simple, the market place decides what degrees are worthwhile.

well that depends on your point of view.  If you are someone that thinks one should only go to a job that pays the highest, or go after a degree that is in the highest paid category , then yeah,  but not everyone has that opinion.  Some of the jobs that are the most important get paid the least. And vice versa

[Hogtimes]

well that depends on your point of view.  If you are someone that thinks one should only go to a job that pays the highest, or go after a degree that is in the highest paid category , then yeah,  but not everyone has that opinion.  Some of the jobs that are the most important get paid the least. And vice versa

I believe you misunderstood my post.  I was simply answering a question and I did not elaborate.
So maybe that was my fault.    I did not say anything about salaries, because  we were talking about getting a job.... employment    There have been numerous reports that say over 50% of recent college graduates cannot find a job in their field of study.   In other words they have a worthless major, because no one has any use for them at any salary.

A Sociology major can find a job, but the pay is minimal.  However,  it is a worthy profession and they can find a job in their chosen field.  So their degree is worth something in the marketplace....because there is a need for their service. That is great.  What I am talking about is these  new majors that colleges have developed and there is no demand for them in the market place....so the degree is worthless.

I hope that helps clarify things.

[Nashville Fan]

Sorry, no offense intended to a fellow hog, but your post makes no sense.to me.   Are you by chance related to Casey Stengel?.......Just kidding.

state gives 170MM with strings attached. Out of state students give up to 125MM with no requirement s except to teach the class they signed up for. Which is a better funding source?

[Hogtimes]

state gives 170MM with strings attached. Out of state students give up to 125MM with no requirement s except to teach the class they signed up for. Which is a better funding source?

What strings are you talking about?   Can you verify that $225 million?  Thanks

[Nashville Fan]

Dude if you can't comprehend their budget or do the math for yourself, I would suggest not talking out your a$$ on a message board about it.

[Hogtimes]

Dude if you can't comprehend their budget or do the math for yourself, I would suggest not talking out your a$$ on a message board about it.

There is no need for name calling or attacking your opponent..  We are all Razorback fans.

I am sorry and with all due respect, but gross numbers, supposed agendas with unstated strings attached, and  vague questions do not  help  much.  I will just say, the out of state students give the University nothing.  They  personally usually pay close to the same tuition  as in state students.   To me that is the issue.  It appears you have other views,  so I guess we will have to just disagree. 

Obviously this debate is going no where, so I will sign off and leave the last word to you.

With all sincerity, I hope you have a blessed day.  Go hogs.

[Nashville Fan]

First, I would never called you a name. I implied that you can't comprehend or add. There is a difference.

Directly from the budget "funded from tuition & fees, sales & investments, totals approximately $897.4 million in FY2018". I doubt that even the university can tell you definitively, but logically, if 1/3 the student population is out of state, then one third of the tuition & fees, sales & investments comes from out of state. That is $299MM that of revenue is generated from out of the state.

I went with the lower number of 5,000 students * $24,000 average student spend or $120MM. But actually out of state make up a lot more than $120,000,000 of the University's budget.

As for the strings?
of the $170 Million that the State funds:
$800,000 has to be used to fund the law school
$173,087 has to be used to improve the archives preservation and outreach.
$800,000 has to be used to advance electrical energy research
$250,000 has to be used to advance Arkansas parks technology
$2,500,000 has to be used to create rural autism clinics and training.
$250,000 has to be used to increase Arkansas exports globally
etc....
From what I can tell only $96,600,000 does not have to be used for specific purposes. But is restricted to general groups like salaries, operating expenses, etc.

[Nashville Fan]

Hopefully to get the tread back on track after I derailed it...

In my opinion, every recruit has a circle of influence. The  high school coach is often included in the circle of influence for many of the recruits. You can only hope for someone to speak for your university when the real decisions are being made by the recruit and his circle of influence.

The better the report that the AR coaches have with the high school coaches, the more likely they will vote positively when the decision time comes and there is no Arkansas coach around to speak up for the school