Dusty Baker Fired

[cubsfan5150]

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/9767640/dusty-baker-cincinnati-reds-manager-sources-say

I'm not so sure that this is the right move for Cincinnati... no clue who'd they'd go after, but I'm assuming it'll be someone that buys into sabermetrics more.

[johnny cash]

Did not see that coming.

[McKdaddy]

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/9767640/dusty-baker-cincinnati-reds-manager-sources-say

I'm not so sure that this is the right move for Cincinnati... no clue who'd they'd go after, but I'm assuming it'll be someone that buys into sabermetrics more.

What was your opinion of Dusty during his time in CHI?  The guy has been a winner everywhere he's been.

[jbcarol]

Could be a promote-from-within.

[jrulz83]

I've always thought he was way overrated, he's an average manager.

What has Baker ever done in the postseason but choke?

[jbcarol]

Weatherman tried to save face after the embarrassing finishing stretch.

Some claim he may have lost it during the Pirate series.

[cubsfan5150]

What was your opinion of Dusty during his time in CHI?  The guy has been a winner everywhere he's been.

He's proven himself to be a very good manager, at least during the regular season.  Did he help ruin Wood and Prior's careers?  That's debatable, but what's not debatable is that he wins everywhere he goes. 

He took the Cubs farther than they'd been in at least 20 years, and you could debate that he took them farther than they'd been since 1945.

If the Reds can replace Baker on the level that SF replaced him (Alou) then it could be a positive for the organization, but unless they go pluck Girardi or someone on that level, that organization could see a steep fall in the coming seasons. 

Pittsburgh is poised to be on top of the division for several seasons if St. Louis has any type of veteran decline from their aging stars... It's going to be tough for the Reds to keep up.

[cubsfan5150]

I've always thought he was way overrated, he's an average manager.

What has Baker ever done in the postseason but choke?

In my opinion, managers help you make it to the post season, but players make or break the post season.

Is Ron Washington considered a choke because he players couldn't get one freakin out?

[jbcarol]

La Russa's not interested in the Cincinnati Reds job: "I'm not managing any more. (Reds GM) Walt (Jocketty) has had more than enough of me."

[pigture perfect]

I for one am glad he's out of the NL Central, oops. He may return to the Cubs. I think he is a very dangerous manager.

[jrulz83]

In my opinion, managers help you make it to the post season, but players make or break the post season.

Is Ron Washington considered a choke because he players couldn't get one freakin out?

Yes, because there was a Game 7 that they didn't recover for. You have heard the pregame speech by Washington before Game 7 right?

Obscenity Warning!!!

Meanwhile, TLR went individually to every player and told them that if they don't put Game 6 in a box and celebrate it after they win Game 7, the amazing game that was Game 6 counted for nothing.

Baker choked during the Bartman Ball game for the same reason. His team couldn't recover from a freak thing that happened. Look, I think Baker is a fair to slightly above average manager, but is he great? Not in my mind.

[Dr. Starcs]

That logic is somewhat flawed.

'11 ws had more to do with getting one game rained out and giving carpenter an extra day of rest.

That and homefield advantage.

Managers are given too much credit/blame for success/failure of a team.

[jrulz83]

That logic is somewhat flawed.

'11 ws had more to do with getting one game rained out and giving carpenter an extra day of rest.

That and homefield advantage.

Managers are given too much credit/blame for success/failure of a team.

Okay, if the manager doesn't have much to do with wins and losses, is Joe McCarthy managing your team or Roy Hartsfield?

[Dr. Starcs]

If you wanna believe its more about managers than players, it would be futile for me to debate you.

[jrulz83]

If you wanna believe its more about managers than players, it would be futile for me to debate you.

Did I type that it was more about managers? Ummm....no. Of course players have to perform well and do their jobs. That's not debatable, only a complete moron thinks player success or failure does not have greater influence on team success than a manager making moves. I completely agree with you on that point.

All I'm saying is that a manager can make a team 5 to 15 percent better or worse in regard to wins, losses, and postseason success.

I stand by my statement that Baker is just an above average manager. That said, do I think I could have his success... Definitely not; however if managers don't have something to do with wins and losses maybe I could.   

[Dr. Starcs]

Rather than just making a blanket statement that Baker is overrated, why don't you give specific examples of how he is and how he's choked in the playoffs.

I would agree with you that a manager can be worth maybe 10% of a teams success.

[jrulz83]

Okay, how about in 1993; San Francisco had a 9.5 game lead in the NL west on August 7, lost the lead to the Braves and missed the playoffs.

2002 World Series San Francisco led 3 games to 2, led game six 5-0 in the seventh inning, and the Angels scored 6 runs in the last three innings to win game six and won game seven.

2012 Reds, led San Francisco 2-0 in the NLDS and couldn't win one game at home.

2013 Reds, lost their final six games and were listless in the Wildcard game

Never won a World Series.

[Dr. Starcs]

And what exactly did he do to lose those games

[jrulz83]

He showed up to manage

[cubsfan5150]

Okay, how about in 1993; San Francisco had a 9.5 game lead in the NL west on August 7, lost the lead to the Braves and missed the playoffs.

2002 World Series San Francisco led 3 games to 2, led game six 5-0 in the seventh inning, and the Angels scored 6 runs in the last three innings to win game six and won game seven.

2012 Reds, led San Francisco 2-0 in the NLDS and couldn't win one game at home.

2013 Reds, lost their final six games and were listless in the Wildcard game

Never won a World Series.

Hey, Jack McKeon is a better manager than Dusty Baker then huh?

I'm assuming you determine who the best QB is based on SB wins?

[jrulz83]

Hey, Jack McKeon is a better manager than Dusty Baker then huh?

I'm assuming you determine who the best QB is based on SB wins?

I do not, but is Tony Romo a great quarterback?

I just think Baker is not as great as everybody thinks, to me he's above average and that's it. If you think he's the Muhammad Ali of baseball managers that's fine, I just can't see it.

[cubsfan5150]

I do not, but is Tony Romo a great quarterback?

I just think Baker is not as great as everybody thinks, to me he's above average and that's it. If you think he's the Muhammad Ali of baseball managers that's fine, I just can't see it.

Far from it... I think he's a proven winner that a team could do much worse than.

As far as Romo... top 5 all-time in QB rating, but I'm sure he's far from that in ESPN QBR, he's a choke artist like I've never seen.

[jrulz83]

Far from it... I think he's a proven winner that a team could do much worse than.

As far as Romo... top 5 all-time in QB rating, but I'm sure he's far from that in ESPN QBR, he's a choke artist like I've never seen.

Sorry for going Romo there. He has to be the worst fumbler ever, always at the most inopportune time. Surprisingly he's #7 in the NFL this season in Total QBR.

I completely agree that they could do way worse, especially if they promote from within ie: Riggleman. He's supposedly a good baseball guy and all that, but I'd want Baker way  way before him.

I think they'll make a play for Girardi if he's available, but I don't see that happening.

[cubsfan5150]

Sorry for going Romo there. He has to be the worst fumbler ever, always at the most inopportune time. Surprisingly he's #7 in the NFL this season in Total QBR.

I completely agree that they could do way worse, especially if they promote from within ie: Riggleman. He's supposedly a good baseball guy and all that, but I'd want Baker way  way before him.

I think they'll make a play for Girardi if he's available, but I don't see that happening.

They'd have to come at Girardi with at least $7M IMO... Girardi is going to the Cubs or staying with the Yanks.  Book it.

[jbcarol]

JoePos: DUSTY BAKER'S GREAT SIN WAS NEVER WINNING THE BIG ONE
Deposed Reds manager has won 90 games nine times, but never the World Series

Dusty's a good guy, he commands respect, and, as if to amplify that point, Jon Heyman writes that in his last days with Cincinnati he was trying to protect his hitting coach, Brook Jacoby.

No, from my viewpoint, sabermetrics did not doom Dusty, at least not directly. It was something else, something more basic. Dusty Baker -- like Marty Schottenheimer, like George Karl, like Eddie Sutton -- had the exasperating knack of building terrific teams that did not win championships. And sooner or later -- usually sooner -- time just runs out on those kinds of coaches and manager.

Look at Baker's career. Twenty years. Eight 90-win seasons. Three Manager of the Year awards. The year before he came to San Francisco, the Giants lost 90 games. His first year, they won 103. The year before he came to Chicago, the Cubs lost 95 games. His first year, they won 88, and were a clean inning away from the World Series. The seven years before he came to Cincinnati, the Reds had losing records. In his third season, the Reds won 90 and topped the National League Central.

A one-game playoff is a dreadful way to determine which team is better. Heck, a three-out-of-five series isn't a great way either. But Bud Selig and the baseball owners determined -- rightly, I suspect -- that most baseball fans like these short and dramatic and erratic showdowns, one game for all the marbles, three wins for the right to advance, win or lose, stand or fall, do or die. And so this is the way the game is played, and the Reds lost to the Pirates, and Dusty Baker was shown the door. Here's your hat, what's your hurry?

It's not exactly fair. But it is the way of the world. Dusty Baker says he wants to manage again, and I'm guessing that will happen. See, there's a clear baseball pattern. A terrible team wants to become respectable. When you are under a rock, the biggest thing you can dream of is seeing the sun...

[jrulz83]

They'd have to come at Girardi with at least $7M IMO... Girardi is going to the Cubs or staying with the Yanks.  Book it.

I predict Yankees, the Reds can't afford him, but the NL Central could get really interesting if the Cubbies landed that fish.

[clutch]

I predict Yankees, the Reds can't afford him, but the NL Central could get really interesting if the Cubbies landed that fish.

The Cubs are the only other team that has a chance I think since he's a Chicago guy. Still figure he stays in NYC though. He's got kids in school there so his family is pretty settled in. He played there too. Plus, you don't just leave the Yankees.

[dhornjr1]

JoePos: DUSTY BAKER'S GREAT SIN WAS NEVER WINNING THE BIG ONE
Deposed Reds manager has won 90 games nine times, but never the World Series

That's a good take on Dusty Baker. There is no doubt the guy is a darned good manager.

[jrulz83]

The Cubs are the only other team that has a chance I think since he's a Chicago guy. Still figure he stays in NYC though. He's got kids in school there so his family is pretty settled in. He played there too. Plus, you don't just leave the Yankees.

You never know what will happen, I'm shooting in the dark, with my eyes closed, while running on a treadmill during an earthquake, but I don't see him leaving NYC. Maybe Washington as a dark horse, but highly unlikely.

[jbcarol]

Could be a promote-from-within.

Reds are expected to name Bryan Price their manager today.