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A small class expected

Started by casken, June 14, 2017, 08:23:58 pm

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casken

I may have missed it in my scan...I heard on DTS that the expected recruiting class size this year is around fourteen. I can't recall that ever being the case. If so, why so?

I come around only in brief visits, sorry if I missed a well known snippet of Hog Fact. Someone care to fill me in? I 'd appreciate it.
"The human capacity to know the good and the right is distorted by the human will to fulfill desire."-Dallas Willard

PorkRinds

If that's true, and I don't know that it will be as low as that, it's because of lack of attrition in the program.  You can only have 85 roster spots and if they are filled up you either have to kick kids to the curb or sign a small class.

 

factchecker

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OMAHOGS

ArkansasI

We are allowed 85 scholarships. Including a redshirt year, we have 5 classes on campus. An average class would be 17 players (85/5).

Classes are typically larger due to attrition, which is high in college football. A smaller than average class is indicative of solid recruiting in prior years. Fewer players lost to academic casualty, absence of hope of playing, or just getting squeezed infers the program is getting stronger.


PorkRinds

Quote from: ArkansasI on June 14, 2017, 08:42:09 pm
We are allowed 85 scholarships. Including a redshirt year, we have 5 classes on campus. An average class would be 17 players (85/5).

Classes are typically larger due to attrition, which is high in college football. A smaller than average class is indicative of solid recruiting in prior years. Fewer players lost to academic casualty, absence of hope of playing, or just getting squeezed infers the program is getting stronger.

Yep. It's usually the sign of a healthy program.

Hawghiggs

Quote from: PorkRinds on June 14, 2017, 08:49:54 pm
Yep. It's usually the sign of a healthy program.

Then what the hell is Alabama's excuse? They sign 20 plus every year.

RebelW

BAMA's not healthy they just win. We are healthy good natured kids that try hard but don't have the wins...

RebelW

Not meaning that disrespectfull at all just 2 different types of healthy

PorkRinds

Quote from: Hawghiggs on June 14, 2017, 09:14:01 pm
Then what the hell is Alabama's excuse? They sign 20 plus every year.

They kick kids to the curb as often as possible.

Wildhog

Quote from: PorkRinds on June 14, 2017, 09:43:53 pm
They kick kids to the curb as often as possible.

At Bama, you produce or you're gone. 
Arkansas Razorbacks Football National Championships:
1909/1964/1965/1977

Hawghiggs

Quote from: PorkRinds on June 14, 2017, 09:43:53 pm
They kick kids to the curb as often as possible.

I do agree that they do that. But aren't they also creating competition and a stronger depth chart?

Wildhog

Quote from: Hawghiggs on June 14, 2017, 10:18:26 pm
I do agree that they do that. But aren't they also creating competition and a stronger depth chart?

They are.  At the expense of their lesser players.  But yeah, they are.

Frankly, programs should have to offer four-year scholarships.  It'd be a competitive advantage for us.
Arkansas Razorbacks Football National Championships:
1909/1964/1965/1977

Hawghiggs

Quote from: Wildhog on June 14, 2017, 10:15:38 pm
At Bama, you produce or you're gone. 

Shouldn't that be the way of it here? Scholarships are for only one year. So if someone was producing. Cutting them lose would seem to be the right thing for the program.

 

Wildhog

Quote from: Hawghiggs on June 14, 2017, 10:22:25 pm
Shouldn't that be the way of it here? Scholarships are for only one year. So if someone was producing. Cutting them lose would seem to be the right thing for the program.

We don't really do that.  Now, if a kid is wanting playing time and it's just not going to happen here, we will help them find a landing spot.

But we're not processing kids like Bama does.
Arkansas Razorbacks Football National Championships:
1909/1964/1965/1977

Hawghiggs

Quote from: Wildhog on June 14, 2017, 10:19:57 pm
They are.  At the expense of their lesser players.  But yeah, they are.

Frankly, programs should have to offer four-year scholarships.  It'd be a competitive advantage for us.

I agree with that. Or at least have the initial scholarship be for two years. That way someone has time to adjust to college.

factchecker

Quote from: Hawghiggs on June 14, 2017, 10:22:25 pm
Shouldn't that be the way of it here? Scholarships are for only one year. So if someone was producing. Cutting them lose would seem to be the right thing for the program.

Could you imagine the bitchfest that would ensue if we were processing players like Bama?  People were/are pissed about the players (Peavey, Duwop etc.) that we help find a spot to play.  Imagine us pushing a local kid out like Bama does. There would be a crap ton of threads about us burning bridges with Arkansas high school coaches.

You get away with a lot more when you are "king".  We can't get away with the same practices that Bama does.  It's the same reason why we can't Philon players.
WORK FOR IT
PLAN ON IT
EARN IT
OMAHOGS

Hawghiggs

Quote from: factchecker on June 14, 2017, 10:34:36 pm
Could you imagine the bitchfest that would ensue if we were processing players like Bama?  People were/are pissed about the players (Peavey, Duwop etc.) that we help find a spot to play.  Imagine us pushing a local kid out like Bama does. There would be a crap ton of threads about us burning bridges with Arkansas high school coaches.

You get away with a lot more when you are "king".  We can't get away with the same practices that Bama does.  It's the same reason why we can't Philon players.

Your probably correct and I'm not arguing that you aren't. But we take so few Arkansas players as it is. Would it really be that big of a deal. On another note. No one should ever lie to a recruit. What Alabama did to Philon was BS, and I hope that recruits start to really be aware of this now that there is a early signing period for football.

ricepig

Quote from: Hawghiggs on June 14, 2017, 10:24:33 pm
I agree with that. Or at least have the initial scholarship be for two years. That way someone has time to adjust to college.

It's coming, probably a lot sooner than expected.

http://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/inside-the-first-legally-binding-contract-between-a-college-athlete-and-a-school/

mizzouman

Quote from: factchecker on June 14, 2017, 10:34:36 pm
Could you imagine the bitchfest that would ensue if we were processing players like Bama?  People were/are pissed about the players (Peavey, Duwop etc.) that we help find a spot to play.  Imagine us pushing a local kid out like Bama does. There would be a crap ton of threads about us burning bridges with Arkansas high school coaches.

You get away with a lot more when you are "king".  We can't get away with the same practices that Bama does.  It's the same reason why we can't Philon players.
I think if you win like Bama, it wouldn't matter.  Fans will be happy.

Razorbax

it is not just Bama...With recruiting being an inexact science, underrating and overrating recruits are going to often happen. While not justifying what is done ala Philon, it often happens to schools with recruits changing their pledge or pledging at the last moment. If you go the night before the signing date with 20 commits and 20 spaces open and one recruit that you thought was going elsewhere suddenly wants to sign with your school and is higher rated....It causes all kinds of issues.
Quote from: mizzouman on June 15, 2017, 07:49:57 am
I think if you win like Bama, it wouldn't matter.  Fans will be happy.

ArkansasI

In Bama's defense, a healthy amount of their attrition results from underclassmen turning professional.  I agree that Nick doesn't coddle anyone, but he's developed a pretty saleable product to highly recruited athletes.

Of course, as in basketball, I believe those great football players would be able to make their way to the NFL from their home state schools.  In fact, they'd likely find it far easier to get on the field than at Alabama... tough to convince players otherwise when they see draft results.

East TN HAWG

Low attrition is a sign of a healthy program.  It shows that our coaches perform due diligence before they offer scholarships.  It also shows that our coaches are committed to the players. 

Bubba's Bruisers

Quote from: factchecker on June 14, 2017, 10:34:36 pm
Could you imagine the bitchfest that would ensue if we were processing players like Bama?  People were/are pissed about the players (Peavey, Duwop etc.) that we help find a spot to play.  Imagine us pushing a local kid out like Bama does. There would be a crap ton of threads about us burning bridges with Arkansas high school coaches.

You get away with a lot more when you are "king".  We can't get away with the same practices that Bama does.  It's the same reason why we can't Philon players.

If we're a consistent 7-5 team, then yes.  If we start winning on a measurably higher level, then no.

I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heal.

Genesis 3:15

Bubba's Bruisers

Quote from: East TN HAWG on June 15, 2017, 11:37:44 am
Low attrition is a sign of a healthy program.  It shows that our coaches perform due diligence before they offer scholarships.  It also shows that our coaches are committed to the players. 

Depends on the definition of "healthy".  All it shows with any certainty is lack of attrition.  That's usually good, but might not always be so.  And most coaches do their due diligence prior to offering scholarships.  The real question is will it ultimately lead the program to consistently winning at a higher level?     
I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heal.

Genesis 3:15

 

Three and Snout

Quote from: Wildhog on June 14, 2017, 10:19:57 pm
Frankly, programs should have to offer four-year scholarships.  It'd be a competitive advantage for us.

We are offering multi-year agreements.  Agreements that can't be broken for athletic reasons.  Can't make the grades, get in trouble with school/law, don't show up to practice/meetings/tutoring/etc. and your scholarships can be pulled.  Anyone not offering multi-year agreements is at a disadvantage on the recruiting trail, so everyone is already doing it. 

go hogues

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Nashville Fan

I would think a team that does offer a 4yr scholar would have an advantage over a make it or get cut school
Pittman or Bust!

Wildhog

Quote from: Three and Snout on June 15, 2017, 05:40:44 pm
We are offering multi-year agreements.  Agreements that can't be broken for athletic reasons.  Can't make the grades, get in trouble with school/law, don't show up to practice/meetings/tutoring/etc. and your scholarships can be pulled.  Anyone not offering multi-year agreements is at a disadvantage on the recruiting trail, so everyone is already doing it. 

I was under the impression we were still offering year-to-year scholarships.
Arkansas Razorbacks Football National Championships:
1909/1964/1965/1977

ricepig



Exit Pursued by a Boar

Yes, some programs do push folks out early. CBB doesn't seem to do that, though he does work with young men who want out for a chance at more playing time, or to be closer to family . . .

Still, I see the small class issue as being largely a good thing.  It means you have upperclassmen.  Look at MSU a couple of years back, they may have faded a bit at the end, but they were rated #1 for a while too. That team had a lot of juniors and seniors.

EFBAB

nwahogfan1

Quote from: exit followed by a boar on June 16, 2017, 11:22:29 am
Yes, some programs do push folks out early. CBB doesn't seem to do that, though he does work with young men who want out for a chance at more playing time, or to be closer to family . . .

Still, I see the small class issue as being largely a good thing.  It means you have upperclassmen.  Look at MSU a couple of years back, they may have faded a bit at the end, but they were rated #1 for a while too. That team had a lot of juniors and seniors.

EFBAB

We pushed a couple and maybe more out this May to make room for incoming.  It was reported they were leaving to find a place they could play right away but do not believe for a second the decision was not pushed upon them.  We did it because we were over booked.   We had to do it. I think the ones affected new they had to make a bigger impression in the spring or they were on the chopping block.  In other words they knew they had to move up the depth chart or they were probable going to asked to leave.  If a kid or two flunked out then they may have been saved but apparently it did not happen so bye.  I know the coaches will help them find a place to go but they had to vacate their scholarship. 

All programs have to do it particularly the big boys.  It is a way of doing business.  Of course no one wants to do it and especially those kids in good standing and they certainly don't want it reported as such  but you have to because some kids do not progress sufficiently enough to help you win so coaches make the decision to move on. 

nwahogfan1

Quote from: ricepig on June 16, 2017, 09:49:03 am

http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/17/cost-of-attendance-multi-year-scholarships-approved/

We will see how this works out but if an underachieving player is not progressing and maybe does not really try as hard as the coaches want for him to move up the depth chart but they do all the required stuff off the field I would think Coaches will find a way to rid themselves of him/her.

Will not happen often but I can see it happening.  I have seen movies and read books where Coaches did horrible things to kids like extra running or hitting to get them to leave.   I hope that doesn't come back.

ricepig

Quote from: nwahogfan1 on June 16, 2017, 12:21:54 pm
We will see how this works out but if an underachieving player is not progressing and maybe does not really try as hard as the coaches want for him to move up the depth chart but they do all the required stuff off the field I would think Coaches will find a way to rid themselves of him/her.

Will not happen often but I can see it happening.  I have seen movies and read books where Coaches did horrible things to kids like extra running or hitting to get them to leave.   I hope that doesn't come back.

http://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/inside-the-first-legally-binding-contract-between-a-college-athlete-and-a-school/

Biggus Piggus

Alabama has a lot of underclassmen leave for the NFL every year. They also use a number of junior college recruits every year. Their roster turnover is pretty high. And they also run off players they do not want. But the main reason why they keep signing near-full classes is so many of their recruits do not stay 4-5 years.
[CENSORED]!

Inhogswetrust

Quote from: PorkRinds on June 14, 2017, 09:43:53 pm
They kick kids to the curb as often as possible.

Or they leave early for the NFL or realize they never will play much while there with so many other good players and thus transfer. Not many 4 and 5 star players think they should sit on the bench.
If I'm going to cheer players and coaches in victory, I damn sure ought to be man enough to stand with them in defeat.

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Three and Snout

Quote from: nwahogfan1 on June 16, 2017, 12:21:54 pm
We will see how this works out but if an underachieving player is not progressing and maybe does not really try as hard as the coaches want for him to move up the depth chart but they do all the required stuff off the field I would think Coaches will find a way to rid themselves of him/her.

Telling the athlete they will never see the field/court here usually does the trick.  What a coach does with an athlete that no longer cares about playing time and is happy to just have a free ride by doing the minimum required is the tougher question.  And should the coach "do anything" at all in this situation?  I'm not in favor of enacting "code red" as a solution.

sickboy

It's not the size of the class, it's the magic the class can work. ;) 

PorkRinds

Quote from: nwahogfan1 on June 16, 2017, 12:13:35 pm
We pushed a couple and maybe more out this May to make room for incoming.  It was reported they were leaving to find a place they could play right away but do not believe for a second the decision was not pushed upon them.  We did it because we were over booked.   We had to do it. I think the ones affected new they had to make a bigger impression in the spring or they were on the chopping block.  In other words they knew they had to move up the depth chart or they were probable going to asked to leave.  If a kid or two flunked out then they may have been saved but apparently it did not happen so bye.  I know the coaches will help them find a place to go but they had to vacate their scholarship. 

All programs have to do it particularly the big boys.  It is a way of doing business.  Of course no one wants to do it and especially those kids in good standing and they certainly don't want it reported as such  but you have to because some kids do not progress sufficiently enough to help you win so coaches make the decision to move on.

Link to proof that we forced multiple kids out?