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Author Topic: BREAKING: Amauri Hardy, 6-2 PG and 2017 ESPN 4*, confirms Hogs OFFERED today  (Read 22379 times)

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The_Bionic_Pig

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No that shouldn't be a concern for this kid if he is truly a PG. Neither Barford, Macon or Beard are PG's. Playing time wont be a issue here. Heck the fact that he'll have someone to pass it to that can put the ball in the hole should give him the opportunity to be one of the top assist leaders in the SEC (If he's truly a PG). I think it might come down to campus/off campus atmosphere if it does Arkansas might get nudged out.

THE STAT that jumped out at me was29pts & 6 STEAL'S per GAME average!!!!

If he averaged less than half that say 2.5 per game in the SEC and he keeps his A/T ratio 2-1, 3-4 asst & 9-10pts a game I would be absolutely giddy. 


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Pinto

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I agree, this is definitely not "money in the bank", however, I do think this is a bigger deal than Monk (instate player) following all the Hogs.  Especially when this guy is not following any other school like he is the UofA.

I mean can you honestly tell me that a kid  following everyone from UofA and just 1 person from the other contenders and think that we are not his favorite at the moment?  I mean he could definitely go visit these other schools and add a bunch of players and coaches from those schools and things could change, but at the moment, I would say it is hard to deny that we are leading.

Yeah very true. Different scenario. Hopefully it actually means something. I like him 10x more than the other guard...
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HOGdayafternoon

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Rock City Razorback

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Taking his sweet time.
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HogCzar1

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At this point it appears that Barrett is the only one we have a real shot at. We passed on the Lawsons, we couldn't get Crawford to visit (although it seemed we weren't very interested), we whiffed on Weathers, apparently no interest in Wooten, and Hardy appears to be not interested enough.

Are we on anyone else that we have a realistic chance of landing?

Would we be better off saving the scholarship for next year, rather than taking a chance on a relatively lightly recruited player?
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Rock City Razorback

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At this point it appears that Barrett is the only one we have a real shot at. We passed on the Lawsons, we couldn't get Crawford to visit (although it seemed we weren't very interested), we whiffed on Weathers, apparently no interest in Wooten, and Hardy appears to be not interested enough.

Are we on anyone else that we have a realistic chance of landing?

Would we be better off saving the scholarship for next year, rather than taking a chance on a relatively lightly recruited player?

Not as dire as you make it to be. Passed on Lawson's because we didn't have room. And they chose one of the best programs in the country. Like you said, didn't appear to be too keen on Crawford. If Macon was for sure leaving, I bet we would have been front and center. Hard to get Weathers when his coach was going to be at his new school. Hardy is plenty interested, and we're likely the frontrunner as of now, just wait and see. He is taking his time, but still could choose us. There's also Darrington coaches have talked to. But nothing set up. Again, it's not that dire and if we were to save the scholarship to take on Weaver and Brown next year, or an added PG, I'm all for it. That is IF we don't get Hardy.
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HOGdayafternoon

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At this point it appears that Barrett is the only one we have a real shot at. We passed on the Lawsons, we couldn't get Crawford to visit (although it seemed we weren't very interested), we whiffed on Weathers, apparently no interest in Wooten, and Hardy appears to be not interested enough.

Are we on anyone else that we have a realistic chance of landing?

Would we be better off saving the scholarship for next year, rather than taking a chance on a relatively lightly recruited player?

* Lawsons ... I was told Hogs were not interested for variety of reasons.

* Crawford ... Hogs reached out after several schools did, not sure of the interest level but Hogs did not offer and Crawford never visited.

* Weathers ... Hogs did not whiff ... Weathers' HC at Miami (OH) was fired, Weathers and his twin brother announced they were transferring, and OKSt hired his just-fired HC as an asst ... fairly obvious that no other schools whiffed on this guy because he was going to follow his coach. Hogs were smart to move on when they did.

* Wooten ... Hogs re-offered him very quickly after he de-committed from Arizona State, so I'd say they were interested in him. Doesn't look very promising as far as getting him on campus for a visit, at least to this point.

* Hardy ... he may be looking for a place he can play right away, who knows, but I'd say too early to write him off.

* Barrett ... Michigan likes him (he's got a "provisionary offer" that I won't go into further at this time), Tulane and Hogs have offered.

* Hogs have some other irons in the fire, so we'll see how they proceed.
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batmanfan

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This is the kind of recruiting battle Arkansas needs to win to show recruiting really has turned around. I know what we have coming in, but getting a out of state kid with no previous connections and some really good offers just isn't the kind of player this staff has brought in during the MA tenure. Arkansas is the better and healthier program than the other three, and leaps and bounds better than the dumpster fires that are UNLV and Memphis.

Otherwise, this will be a same ole, same ole spring.
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ArkansasI

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* Lawsons ... I was told Hogs were not interested for variety of reasons.

* Crawford ... Hogs reached out after several schools did, not sure of the interest level but Hogs did not offer and Crawford never visited.

* Weathers ... Hogs did not whiff ... Weathers' HC at Miami (OH) was fired, Weathers and his twin brother announced they were transferring, and OKSt hired his just-fired HC as an asst ... fairly obvious that no other schools whiffed on this guy because he was going to follow his coach. Hogs were smart to move on when they did.

* Wooten ... Hogs re-offered him very quickly after he de-committed from Arizona State, so I'd say they were interested in him. Doesn't look very promising as far as getting him on campus for a visit, at least to this point.

* Hardy ... he may be looking for a place he can play right away, who knows, but I'd say too early to write him off.

* Barrett ... Michigan likes him (he's got a "provisionary offer" that I won't go into further at this time), Tulane and Hogs have offered.

* Hogs have some other irons in the fire, so we'll see how they proceed.

Thanks for this... I appreciate the rundown. However, is there anything from what is happening that gives you confidence about our roster management?

This thing feels pretty random. Perhaps that is now the nature of college basketball.
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HogCzar1

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* Lawsons ... I was told Hogs were not interested for variety of reasons.

* Crawford ... Hogs reached out after several schools did, not sure of the interest level but Hogs did not offer and Crawford never visited.

* Weathers ... Hogs did not whiff ... Weathers' HC at Miami (OH) was fired, Weathers and his twin brother announced they were transferring, and OKSt hired his just-fired HC as an asst ... fairly obvious that no other schools whiffed on this guy because he was going to follow his coach. Hogs were smart to move on when they did.

* Wooten ... Hogs re-offered him very quickly after he de-committed from Arizona State, so I'd say they were interested in him. Doesn't look very promising as far as getting him on campus for a visit, at least to this point.

* Hardy ... he may be looking for a place he can play right away, who knows, but I'd say too early to write him off.

* Barrett ... Michigan likes him (he's got a "provisionary offer" that I won't go into further at this time), Tulane and Hogs have offered.

* Hogs have some other irons in the fire, so we'll see how they proceed.


Thanks for the post. I can see why we did miss on Weathers. And, you provide some good context on the others listed.

In terms of "other irons in the fire", are we better off taking the best we can get this spring (which at least now looks like someone not highly recruited), or use it in November?
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HOGdayafternoon

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Thanks for this... I appreciate the rundown. However, is there anything from what is happening that gives you confidence about our roster management?

This thing feels pretty random. Perhaps that is now the nature of college basketball.

Hundreds of players transferring at D1 level, players getting out of LOIs at record numbers, coaching carousel ... this is the REAL March Madness that will carry through the summer. Not just a problem at Arkansas.
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HOGdayafternoon

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Thanks for the post. I can see why we did miss on Weathers. And, you provide some good context on the others listed.

In terms of "other irons in the fire", are we better off taking the best we can get this spring (which at least now looks like someone not highly recruited), or use it in November?

Assuming nobody on the current roster leaves, Hogs have one scholarship to give and I believe they want to fill it in 2017 because they do not want to get into a situation where they have 7 scholarships to give in one class (2018), which would be over half the roster. However, I don't believe they want to reach again like they did with Doobie just to fill a spot. With 4 more weeks left in the spring signing period, we're about to find out how this thing shakes out.
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Pinto

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This is the kind of recruiting battle Arkansas needs to win to show recruiting really has turned around. I know what we have coming in, but getting a out of state kid with no previous connections and some really good offers just isn't the kind of player this staff has brought in during the MA tenure. Arkansas is the better and healthier program than the other three, and leaps and bounds better than the dumpster fires that are UNLV and Memphis.

Otherwise, this will be a same ole, same ole spring.

Yeah, I agree. Its a slap in the face If we can't beat other mediocre programs in these type of recruiting battles
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Hawg Red

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If you can't offer the playing time in Year 1, you can't offer the playing time in Year 1. I'm not sure what a staff can do about that, if it's the biggest factor. That says more about the player than the staff. I think we can pretty much assume that any player who picks Memphis right now is either from Memphis (even that is a trouble area) or wants immediate playing time. Hardy is also considering Georgia Tech, but they've been recruiting him longer so there's a stronger relationship there (presumably). UNLV is another situation where he could go and probably start. I think he'd be a Hog right now if we could offer him the kind of playing time that some of these other programs can. And we still may get him. But if he goes to UNLV or Memphis, it's because he wants that playing time right away and he may not get there here. It won't be because the staff couldn't recruit or sell him on the program.
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HOGdayafternoon

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This is the kind of recruiting battle Arkansas needs to win to show recruiting really has turned around. I know what we have coming in, but getting a out of state kid with no previous connections and some really good offers just isn't the kind of player this staff has brought in during the MA tenure. Arkansas is the better and healthier program than the other three, and leaps and bounds better than the dumpster fires that are UNLV and Memphis.

Otherwise, this will be a same ole, same ole spring.

This is simply not true on many levels.

* First, ALL coaches have prior connections that help them in recruiting. So much networking in coaching that if you knew the whole story on most kids signed across the country, you'd be able to find a 6-degrees-of-separation link from the prospect to the coaching staff the vast majority of the time.

* Second, the knock on CMA was not getting the best players out of Arkansas (which was always a false narrative), but now that he has all of the best in the fold for the next 3 classes, it's not good enough and he can't recruit outside Arkansas now.

* Third, in the 2016 class alone, Arkansas signed Jaylen Barford (ton of high-major offers, and many of those were from traditional basketball schools); Arlando Cook (offers to Iowa State, OKSt, Missouri, other high- and mid-majors), Adrio Bailey (offers from OKSt, Wichita State, Vandy conditional, Texas Tech conditional, and had an offer waiting upon his scheduled OV to Iowa State that he cancelled before committing to Hogs), and Brachen Hazen (de-committed from Central Florida late, but had offers from Maryland, Creighton, and Clemson with Vandy and Purdue also pursuing him).

Arkansas has lost plenty / most of the recruiting battles for out of state kids, but if you were to look at 95% of high-major programs and the amount of offers that go out, you'll see that most programs have more recruiting losses than wins the further they branch out from their own backyard.

All of you have to do is look at the results on the floor over the past 3 years, a time when the program has effectively been the 2nd-best in the SEC and you'll see that the "problems" are not nearly as bad as pronounced by Hog fans.

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FineAsSwine

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This is simply not true on many levels.

* First, ALL coaches have prior connections that help them in recruiting. So much networking in coaching that if you knew the whole story on most kids signed across the country, you'd be able to find a 6-degrees-of-separation link from the prospect to the coaching staff the vast majority of the time.

* Second, the knock on CMA was not getting the best players out of Arkansas (which was always a false narrative), but now that he has all of the best in the fold for the next 3 classes, it's not good enough and he can't recruit outside Arkansas now.

* Third, in the 2016 class alone, Arkansas signed Jaylen Barford (ton of high-major offers, and many of those were from traditional basketball schools); Arlando Cook (offers to Iowa State, OKSt, Missouri, other high- and mid-majors), Adrio Bailey (offers from OKSt, Wichita State, Vandy conditional, Texas Tech conditional, and had an offer waiting upon his scheduled OV to Iowa State that he cancelled before committing to Hogs), and Brachen Hazen (de-committed from Central Florida late, but had offers from Maryland, Creighton, and Clemson with Vandy and Purdue also pursuing him).

Arkansas has lost plenty / most of the recruiting battles for out of state kids, but if you were to look at 95% of high-major programs and the amount of offers that go out, you'll see that most programs have more recruiting losses than wins the further they branch out from their own backyard.

All of you have to do is look at the results on the floor over the past 3 years, a time when the program has effectively been the 2nd-best in the SEC and you'll see that the "problems" are not nearly as bad as pronounced by Hog fans.

So true.
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Swinesong1

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This is simply not true on many levels.

* First, ALL coaches have prior connections that help them in recruiting. So much networking in coaching that if you knew the whole story on most kids signed across the country, you'd be able to find a 6-degrees-of-separation link from the prospect to the coaching staff the vast majority of the time.

* Second, the knock on CMA was not getting the best players out of Arkansas (which was always a false narrative), but now that he has all of the best in the fold for the next 3 classes, it's not good enough and he can't recruit outside Arkansas now.

* Third, in the 2016 class alone, Arkansas signed Jaylen Barford (ton of high-major offers, and many of those were from traditional basketball schools); Arlando Cook (offers to Iowa State, OKSt, Missouri, other high- and mid-majors), Adrio Bailey (offers from OKSt, Wichita State, Vandy conditional, Texas Tech conditional, and had an offer waiting upon his scheduled OV to Iowa State that he cancelled before committing to Hogs), and Brachen Hazen (de-committed from Central Florida late, but had offers from Maryland, Creighton, and Clemson with Vandy and Purdue also pursuing him).

Arkansas has lost plenty / most of the recruiting battles for out of state kids, but if you were to look at 95% of high-major programs and the amount of offers that go out, you'll see that most programs have more recruiting losses than wins the further they branch out from their own backyard.

All of you have to do is look at the results on the floor over the past 3 years, a time when the program has effectively been the 2nd-best in the SEC and you'll see that the "problems" are not nearly as bad as pronounced by Hog fans.
Thank you for this.  Won't change the minds of the knuckleheads but, thanks nonetheless.
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Dwight_K_Shrute

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This is simply not true on many levels.

* First, ALL coaches have prior connections that help them in recruiting. So much networking in coaching that if you knew the whole story on most kids signed across the country, you'd be able to find a 6-degrees-of-separation link from the prospect to the coaching staff the vast majority of the time.

* Second, the knock on CMA was not getting the best players out of Arkansas (which was always a false narrative), but now that he has all of the best in the fold for the next 3 classes, it's not good enough and he can't recruit outside Arkansas now.

* Third, in the 2016 class alone, Arkansas signed Jaylen Barford (ton of high-major offers, and many of those were from traditional basketball schools); Arlando Cook (offers to Iowa State, OKSt, Missouri, other high- and mid-majors), Adrio Bailey (offers from OKSt, Wichita State, Vandy conditional, Texas Tech conditional, and had an offer waiting upon his scheduled OV to Iowa State that he cancelled before committing to Hogs), and Brachen Hazen (de-committed from Central Florida late, but had offers from Maryland, Creighton, and Clemson with Vandy and Purdue also pursuing him).

Arkansas has lost plenty / most of the recruiting battles for out of state kids, but if you were to look at 95% of high-major programs and the amount of offers that go out, you'll see that most programs have more recruiting losses than wins the further they branch out from their own backyard.

All of you have to do is look at the results on the floor over the past 3 years, a time when the program has effectively been the 2nd-best in the SEC and you'll see that the "problems" are not nearly as bad as pronounced by Hog fans.

Damn
Thing
Done

Although I would change "Hog fans" to "some Hog fans" or "some so called Hog fans"  because if the only narrative you are interested in or promote is one with a negative slant toward MA, are you really a fan?
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ArkansasI

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This is simply not true on many levels.

* First, ALL coaches have prior connections that help them in recruiting. So much networking in coaching that if you knew the whole story on most kids signed across the country, you'd be able to find a 6-degrees-of-separation link from the prospect to the coaching staff the vast majority of the time.

Thanks for posting.  Good conversation.

With respect to your first comment, I don't really understand your narrative.  Mike has been in the profession since around 1985 - occupying a pretty lofty seat.  He was Nolan's #1 assistant for many years and, to his credit, helped bring a national championship to Arkansas.

As a young assistance, Mike represented one of the most dominant programs of the time.  One might assume he could have been "making hay" to land a great head coaching opportunity.  Eventually, he did a fine job at UAB, ok at Missouri and about the same as his predecessors at Arkansas.

However, if there is a coach in America that should benefit from prior connections that should help them in recruiting, it should be Mike.  As long as he has been in the business, few should have established better connections throughout the country.  Yet, I don't see that within his recruiting.

* Second, the knock on CMA was not getting the best players out of Arkansas (which was always a false narrative), but now that he has all of the best in the fold for the next 3 classes, it's not good enough and he can't recruit outside Arkansas now.

What was the false narrative?  Are you saying that Mike kept the best Arkansans home?  Or are you saying the Arkansans that left weren't the best players out of Arkansas?  Or are you saying it isn't Mike's fault that the best Arkansans elected to play elsewhere?

I think it is fair to say that - aside from Bobby Portis - the best Arkansans have elected to play out of state during Mike's tenure as head coach.  No doubt facilities, lack of recent success and other variables contributed to those decisions, but that is precisely why coaching changes are made - to reverse the trend.

This year seems different.  For whatever reasons, the top Arkansans are committing to the program.  Why the change?   Because they don't have offers to Kentucky or Florida?  Or because Arkansas finally has the basketball practice facility and Jones education center?  Or because there is courage in numbers - several good players looking to play together?  Or is it because the Hogs made it to the NCAA tournament, beat Seton Hall and were competitive in their contest against the eventual national champions?  Or is it because Mike Anderson all of a sudden is a coach to whom players will commit to play?

I don't know.  For all the criticism that you may seek to remove from Mike, I think there is room to question his performance.

* Third, in the 2016 class alone, Arkansas signed Jaylen Barford (ton of high-major offers, and many of those were from traditional basketball schools); Arlando Cook (offers to Iowa State, OKSt, Missouri, other high- and mid-majors), Adrio Bailey (offers from OKSt, Wichita State, Vandy conditional, Texas Tech conditional, and had an offer waiting upon his scheduled OV to Iowa State that he cancelled before committing to Hogs), and Brachen Hazen (de-committed from Central Florida late, but had offers from Maryland, Creighton, and Clemson with Vandy and Purdue also pursuing him).

I agree...  Yet, Barford and Cook are Jucos - academic risks.  The best programs seldom mess with this talent if they can recruit players of similar talent without those risks.  I don't know why these guys chose Arkansas, but I'm glad they did.  I suspect that I like Cook better than most on this board.

One might imagine that those jucos envisioned themselves as a different sort of recruiting class with Macon (Arkansan).  Their collective common experiences may have made it easier to come in as a group than as the sole juco guy on another team.  Pure conjecture on my part.

I like Bailey's game, but his decision didn't seem to be a huge get for the Hogs.  Adrio didn't have an offer from his home state LSU.  Arkansas's proximity to his home may have had as much to do with his choice as anything else.  Plus, he gets to play against LSU.

Brachen is coming under fire from a lot of people on this board - but not from me.  He has nice size and I hope that he matures into a fine player.  However, he is another developmental player.  I'm pleased that both Brachen and Adrio are Razorbacks, but it is hard to label their recruitment as wins in hotly contested recruiting battles.

Arkansas has lost plenty / most of the recruiting battles for out of state kids, but if you were to look at 95% of high-major programs and the amount of offers that go out, you'll see that most programs have more recruiting losses than wins the further they branch out from their own backyard.

I suspect this is true, which is all the more reason for criticism when the best players from Arkansas have chosen to play for our conference rivals.  That is no way to build a successful program.

All of you have to do is look at the results on the floor over the past 3 years, a time when the program has effectively been the 2nd-best in the SEC and you'll see that the "problems" are not nearly as bad as pronounced by Hog fans.

I want to believe.  Really, I do.  I am excited about the prospects of the new players coming in - I always hope that they are going to be good players that love playing for the University of Arkansas.  But I am far less enamored with the 2017 finish.  The 2016-2017 Razorbacks lost 10 games, and 9 of them were ugly.  I'd say 10 of our 26 wins were of good quality, and perhaps 2 stand as wins to get excited about.

I will believe that the program has broken through the chains of mediocrity when Mike brings in a highly recruited player from out of state that is not an academic marginal, and the player commits to the program without wanting to take visits to other programs that have also been wallowing in mediocrity for 20+ years. 
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ShadowHawg

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Moses Kingsley chose us over Louisville. So.......
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ArkansasI

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Moses Kingsley chose us over Louisville. So.......

Of course, you are correct.  I don't know the details of Moses's recruitment.  However, I do know that he is an African born player that developed close ties with Bobby Portis during AAU basketball.  Credit Mike and his staff for bringing Moses to Fayetteville.  And credit Bobby Portis for being Gung Ho about Arkansas.
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HOGdayafternoon

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Thanks for posting.  Good conversation.

With respect to your first comment, I don't really understand your narrative.  Mike has been in the profession since around 1985 - occupying a pretty lofty seat.  He was Nolan's #1 assistant for many years and, to his credit, helped bring a national championship to Arkansas.

As a young assistance, Mike represented one of the most dominant programs of the time.  One might assume he could have been "making hay" to land a great head coaching opportunity.  Eventually, he did a fine job at UAB, ok at Missouri and about the same as his predecessors at Arkansas.

However, if there is a coach in America that should benefit from prior connections that should help them in recruiting, it should be Mike.  As long as he has been in the business, few should have established better connections throughout the country.  Yet, I don't see that within his recruiting.

What was the false narrative?  Are you saying that Mike kept the best Arkansans home?  Or are you saying the Arkansans that left weren't the best players out of Arkansas?  Or are you saying it isn't Mike's fault that the best Arkansans elected to play elsewhere?

I think it is fair to say that - aside from Bobby Portis - the best Arkansans have elected to play out of state during Mike's tenure as head coach.  No doubt facilities, lack of recent success and other variables contributed to those decisions, but that is precisely why coaching changes are made - to reverse the trend.

This year seems different.  For whatever reasons, the top Arkansans are committing to the program.  Why the change?   Because they don't have offers to Kentucky or Florida?  Or because Arkansas finally has the basketball practice facility and Jones education center?  Or because there is courage in numbers - several good players looking to play together?  Or is it because the Hogs made it to the NCAA tournament, beat Seton Hall and were competitive in their contest against the eventual national champions?  Or is it because Mike Anderson all of a sudden is a coach to whom players will commit to play?

I don't know.  For all the criticism that you may seek to remove from Mike, I think there is room to question his performance.

I agree...  Yet, Barford and Cook are Jucos - academic risks.  The best programs seldom mess with this talent if they can recruit players of similar talent without those risks.  I don't know why these guys chose Arkansas, but I'm glad they did.  I suspect that I like Cook better than most on this board.

One might imagine that those jucos envisioned themselves as a different sort of recruiting class with Macon (Arkansan).  Their collective common experiences may have made it easier to come in as a group than as the sole juco guy on another team.  Pure conjecture on my part.

I like Bailey's game, but his decision didn't seem to be a huge get for the Hogs.  Adrio didn't have an offer from his home state LSU.  Arkansas's proximity to his home may have had as much to do with his choice as anything else.  Plus, he gets to play against LSU.

Brachen is coming under fire from a lot of people on this board - but not from me.  He has nice size and I hope that he matures into a fine player.  However, he is another developmental player.  I'm pleased that both Brachen and Adrio are Razorbacks, but it is hard to label their recruitment as wins in hotly contested recruiting battles.

I suspect this is true, which is all the more reason for criticism when the best players from Arkansas have chosen to play for our conference rivals.  That is no way to build a successful program.

I want to believe.  Really, I do.  I am excited about the prospects of the new players coming in - I always hope that they are going to be good players that love playing for the University of Arkansas.  But I am far less enamored with the 2017 finish.  The 2016-2017 Razorbacks lost 10 games, and 9 of them were ugly.  I'd say 10 of our 26 wins were of good quality, and perhaps 2 stand as wins to get excited about.

I will believe that the program has broken through the chains of mediocrity when Mike brings in a highly recruited player from out of state that is not an academic marginal, and the player commits to the program without wanting to take visits to other programs that have also been wallowing in mediocrity for 20+ years.

* MA did more than "ok" at Mizzou. Had the best winning % in modern era of hoops at that school, took them to the Elite 8 which is the top of the mountain for that program. The point is that all coaches use connections to land kids, but when it's Mike, he doesn't get credit for that as solid recruiting, it was rigged for him to not fail. Yeah, that's why coaches build and nurture relationships and network, so they have built-in advantages in recruiting.

* Yes, it's a false narrative that CMA missed on getting most of the best players to Arkansas. You have to start with the REALITY premise that kids going to Kentucky is not equivalent to a real failure in recruiting, and that goes for most coaches who have 5* kids in their states that Cal happens to fancy.

Archie Goodwin already had one foot out the door for Cal and KY when CMA was hired. He and Monk are 2 examples of guys who wanted the 1-year layover at the NBA D-League stop in Lexington. Aside from the technicality that these were in-state kids who didn't choose to stay home and play for CMA, are we really going to pretend that this does not also happen to the best of the best coaches in the country the vast majority of the time that Cal swoops in and hand-picks a kid? The answer to that is no, these are not examples of kids choosing to not play for CMA, they are kids choosing what so many 5*s do across the country when Cal and KY come callin'. We can count these guys as in-state losses due to CMA if you'd like, but ask yourself which coaches you'd pit against Cal / KY in the country for a recruit, and I'll bet your list is 5 coaches or fewer.

That leaves us with KeVaughn Allen in 2015, who was not interested in Arkansas or CMA for a variety of reasons. Whatever the reasons, I think it is fair to say this is one of the better players in-state who got away. He chose Billy Donovan, then when the opportunity potentially arose for him to back out, he stuck with his LOI and Mike White.

Conversely, CMA retained Madden and Mickelson after the coaching transition when both players initially asked for releases (2011, 2 of the top 3 players in the state w/Ross who was committed but could not qualify). He got Fred Gulley to transfer as a walk-on (came in 2012) and Alandise Harris to transfer in from Houston (also 2012). He got Bobby Portis (2013) and brought Manny Watkins in as a preferred walk-on. He got Anton Beard (who was the best player in-state in 2014), he got Trey Thompson as part of that 2014 class, and he got Dusty Hannahs to transfer to Arkansas from Texas Tech (also in 2014). In 2015, he lost KeVaughn Allen. In 2016, he lost Malik Monk but landed Daryl Macon and got RJ Glasper to walk on.

In 2017, he signed the best 3 players in the state ... he's got 5 more commitments for in-state kids combining 2018 and 2019. Some of these kids have been committed since the summer of 2015 (Gafford) and early 2016 (Justice Hill in Feb of 2016 and Darious Hall in March of 2016).

Aside from Goodwin, Monk, and Allen, the only other 2 kids to get an offer and pass were Jamal Jones (from Searcy, picked TAMU and flamed out after one season there) and Justin Leon (from Conway to juco to just finished 2nd season at FL, but Hogs got in on him very late).

So, even if we count all those, it adds up to 5 misses on guys who were offered -- two 5*s that Kentucky wanted, a very good 4* to Florida, and 2 jucos.

But if you add up the in-state kids that I listed above who CMA either retained (2), signed (6), brought in as transfers (3), got to walk-on (3), or got early commitments from (5), it adds up to 19 players who wanted to play for CMA. Every single one of the in-state guys who has played a minute his program helped Arkansas reach the post-season after a 5-year drought, except for Mickelson who transferred out.

So, out of 24 Arkansas kids who were offered, only 5 have opted to say no. And again, are we really counting the Cal / KY one-and-dones as good evidence that CMA can't keep kids home? We're left with Allen, a head-case juco and another juco who played well at FL. That's it.

* What does it matter that guys like Barford, Macon, and Cook were jucos? For one, you don't know that they were "academic risks" as you stated. Two, even if they were, by the time they were being recruited for D1 in 2016 they were each getting high-major offers. That's the point. They were highly regarded recruits who chose to play for CMA with other high-major options. PERIOD.

True, Adrio Bailey and Brachen Hazen weren't heavily recruited by high majors, but they did in fact have options and offers from some respectable high-majors ... again, examples of out of state kids who had high-major choices and selected Arkansas.

* Again, since the narrative is wrong that Hogs lost the majority of the good players in Arkansas, it's also wrong that Arkansas is not building a successful program. Plenty of measurables that say otherwise.

* No offense, but your last statement is very much telling about your grasping at straws. In recent years, it was just easy to blurt out "Mike can't coach" ... "Mike can't develop players" ... "Mike can't win on the road" ... "Mike can't recruit" ... all have been debunked, but now the damning smoking gun is this lengthy, selective narrative ... your words "I will believe that the program has broken through the chains of mediocrity when Mike brings in a highly recruited player from out of state that is not an academic marginal, and the player commits to the program without wanting to take visits to other programs that have also been wallowing in mediocrity for 20+ years."

Really, in a nutshell, this last comment sums up what's wrong with CMA and the program? If that's the case, things are looking up more than I thought.


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Dwight_K_Shrute

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I think when a rebuttal is so thorough, and spot on, it should be the message board of equivalent of a sleeper hold where the person being rebutted cannot post for a day or maybe a week.

Good job KM, I know it's frustrating.
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batmanfan

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This is simply not true on many levels.

* First, ALL coaches have prior connections that help them in recruiting. So much networking in coaching that if you knew the whole story on most kids signed across the country, you'd be able to find a 6-degrees-of-separation link from the prospect to the coaching staff the vast majority of the time.

* Second, the knock on CMA was not getting the best players out of Arkansas (which was always a false narrative), but now that he has all of the best in the fold for the next 3 classes, it's not good enough and he can't recruit outside Arkansas now.

* Third, in the 2016 class alone, Arkansas signed Jaylen Barford (ton of high-major offers, and many of those were from traditional basketball schools); Arlando Cook (offers to Iowa State, OKSt, Missouri, other high- and mid-majors), Adrio Bailey (offers from OKSt, Wichita State, Vandy conditional, Texas Tech conditional, and had an offer waiting upon his scheduled OV to Iowa State that he cancelled before committing to Hogs), and Brachen Hazen (de-committed from Central Florida late, but had offers from Maryland, Creighton, and Clemson with Vandy and Purdue also pursuing him).

Arkansas has lost plenty / most of the recruiting battles for out of state kids, but if you were to look at 95% of high-major programs and the amount of offers that go out, you'll see that most programs have more recruiting losses than wins the further they branch out from their own backyard.

All of you have to do is look at the results on the floor over the past 3 years, a time when the program has effectively been the 2nd-best in the SEC and you'll see that the "problems" are not nearly as bad as pronounced by Hog fans.



But it's not.

This spring is like every other spring. Unless we land Hardy it will be the same deal. Go after certain recruits, whiff on them all and have to settle for someone with only low major offers or just save a scholarship for the next season (we save scholarships like we are on probation).

I was hoping recruiting was going to be different for now on, but it seems like alot of the same to me in terms of out of state recruiting. Hopefully we can really build with the instate guys, because there is no reason to believe this staff will ever really land top 100 talent from out of the state without a serious connection. Talk about connections all you want, but guys like Avery Johnson, Bruce Pearl, Howland, Jamie Dixon have gone to less than desirable jobs and have recruited at a MAJOR level without staying in state to do it. Way better than we are.

Lastly with 3 scholarships left between '17 and '18, I would guess there is a better chance of us landing three "diamonds in the rough" than likely even landing ONE top 100 guy. I hope they prove me wrong, but I'm not expecting it. Maybe we have enough connections to land Weaver.

Before you guys come at for me being a "hater", I'm not. I don't think this staff is awful or anything, but I do think after 7 years I can say they are pretty mediocre when it comes to recruiting. I think we should be able to agree that the real argument is somewhere in the middle between pretty good and mediocre unless you have an agenda.
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ArkansasI

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* MA did more than "ok" at Mizzou. Had the best winning % in modern era of hoops at that school, took them to the Elite 8 which is the top of the mountain for that program. The point is that all coaches use connections to land kids, but when it's Mike, he doesn't get credit for that as solid recruiting, it was rigged for him to not fail. Yeah, that's why coaches build and nurture relationships and network, so they have built-in advantages in recruiting.
...

* No offense, but your last statement is very much telling about your grasping at straws. In recent years, it was just easy to blurt out "Mike can't coach" ... "Mike can't develop players" ... "Mike can't win on the road" ... "Mike can't recruit" ... all have been debunked, but now the damning smoking gun is this lengthy, selective narrative ... your words "I will believe that the program has broken through the chains of mediocrity when Mike brings in a highly recruited player from out of state that is not an academic marginal, and the player commits to the program without wanting to take visits to other programs that have also been wallowing in mediocrity for 20+ years."

Really, in a nutshell, this last comment sums up what's wrong with CMA and the program? If that's the case, things are looking up more than I thought.

I deleted a lot of your quote simply to save space - no disrespect intended.  TREMENDOUS reply to my post.

While I don't share your outlook on what is transpiring, I respect and appreciate your thoughts.  You may not believe me, but I'm far from a hater.  I wish I shared your optimism.
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HawgTide

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But it's not.

This spring is like every other spring. Unless we land Hardy it will be the same deal. Go after certain recruits, whiff on them all and have to settle for someone with only low major offers or just save a scholarship for the next season (we save scholarships like we are on probation).

I was hoping recruiting was going to be different for now on, but it seems like alot of the same to me in terms of out of state recruiting. Hopefully we can really build with the instate guys, because there is no reason to believe this staff will ever really land top 100 talent from out of the state without a serious connection. Talk about connections all you want, but guys like Avery Johnson, Bruce Pearl, Howland, Jamie Dixon have gone to less than desirable jobs and have recruited at a MAJOR level without staying in state to do it. Way better than we are.

Lastly with 3 scholarships left between '17 and '18, I would guess there is a better chance of us landing three "diamonds in the rough" than likely even landing ONE top 100 guy. I hope they prove me wrong, but I'm not expecting it. Maybe we have enough connections to land Weaver.

Before you guys come at for me being a "hater", I'm not. I don't think this staff is awful or anything, but I do think after 7 years I can say they are pretty mediocre when it comes to recruiting. I think we should be able to agree that the real argument is somewhere in the middle between pretty good and mediocre unless you have an agenda.


It's not like some of you are going to man up and admit you were wrong if we land Hardy or some other highly rated out of state recruit without ties to our coaching staff. You will simply move the bar and bitch and moan about something else.
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ArkansasI

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It's not like some of you are going to man up and admit you were wrong if we land Hardy or some other highly rated out of state recruit without ties to our coaching staff. You will simply move the bar and bitch and moan about something else.

Before he makes his decision, tell us how special is Hardy?  Are we recruiting him against his in-state programs?

I liked his tape, but I didn't see a great outside shot. He is aggressive, and likes to penetrate the lane. I wonder how well that translates to the next level.

Kareem Reid struggled with his game. Not sure Hardy is as strong as Kareem...

Please don't take my comments as disrespectful of the player. I just wonder about him after watching the film.
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razorback1829

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Before he makes his decision, tell us how special is Hardy?  Are we recruiting him against his in-state programs?

I liked his tape, but I didn't see a great outside shot. He is aggressive, and likes to penetrate the lane. I wonder how well that translates to the next level.

Kareem Reid struggled with his game. Not sure Hardy is as strong as Kareem...

Please don't take my comments as disrespectful of the player. I just wonder about him after
watching the film.

Lol Kareem was a McDonald's All- American with offers stretching across the country. Not a comparison in my opinion.
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The_Bionic_Pig

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I honestly believe Hardy said something to the coaching staff....
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AlmaHog2011

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What did he say?
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King Kong

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HOGdayafternoon

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I deleted a lot of your quote simply to save space - no disrespect intended.  TREMENDOUS reply to my post.

While I don't share your outlook on what is transpiring, I respect and appreciate your thoughts.  You may not believe me, but I'm far from a hater.  I wish I shared your optimism.

Thank you, and while we may disagree, I understand yours and others' viewpoints and do not summarily dismiss them just to be a contrarian. But what I see is what I see, it's not optimism. It's simply analyzing the data before me and calling it like I see it.

I've been around basketball in one way or another all my life. Still, even when I bring facts and data to support an opinion, at the end of the day my opinion is mine and not fact. So much of these discussions are subjective, so I always keep that in my mind even when I'm on my soap box.  ;D
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HawgTide

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Before he makes his decision, tell us how special is Hardy?  Are we recruiting him against his in-state programs?

I liked his tape, but I didn't see a great outside shot. He is aggressive, and likes to penetrate the lane. I wonder how well that translates to the next level.

Kareem Reid struggled with his game. Not sure Hardy is as strong as Kareem...

Please don't take my comments as disrespectful of the player. I just wonder about him after watching the film.

So now even if we get him, he's not good enough for you? A 4 star PG? It just seems like you are going to nitpick whoever we get and remain unhappy no matter what.
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azhog10

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I honestly believe Hardy said something to the coaching staff....
You mean he said something like "I'm not gonna come"?
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Letsroll1200

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Arkansas has a lot of depth at the guard spot this season. Hardy want to come in and play. I think Hardy looked at the roster and decided he wouldn't get the minutes at Arkansas.
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The Hogfather

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Arkansas has a lot of depth at the guard spot this season. Hardy want to come in and play. I think Hardy looked at the roster and decided he wouldn't get the minutes at Arkansas.

How could he possibly know this?  As of now, Macon and Barford have their names in the Draft, Hannahs and Watkins graduated, CJ Jones played 20 seconds lat year, Beard hasn't blossomed and only has moments.  To me, he has a shot to come right in and play minutes for pretty good team, with the chance to make them great.
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ArkansasI

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So now even if we get him, he's not good enough for you? A 4 star PG? It just seems like you are going to nitpick whoever we get and remain unhappy no matter what.

Sorry. I admit that I question most of the guys that are available in the late signing period. I realize some truly elite talent waits...

If I recall correctly, I believe Amauri may be rated the 14th best player in Michigan.  Maybe I've got my numbers wrong. Regardless, there is no doubt he is a fine player. I'm just not sure he is elite - a difference maker. The guys that sign with our conference opponents are all top 10-15 talents from their respective states, too. I'd like to see us recruit above our competition.

If Amauri selects the Hogs, I hope he is a world beater.
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reddawg213

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Arkansas has a lot of depth at the guard spot this season. Hardy want to come in and play. I think Hardy looked at the roster and decided he wouldn't get the minutes at Arkansas.

Agreed. It's the same problem we had with Zhaire Smith. . . . minutes. Granted, Hardy came for a visit and it seems to have gone well, but if it's a question of minutes, on paper, the Hog don't have a lot to give. Even our starters don't get a lot of mins compared to other schools.  Most of our starters averaged less than 25 Mins, where guys at UK or even lower teams like Texas had several starters who averaged over 30. Add to that the fact that there wasn't a single freshman this year that played significate mins (not one freshman averaged over 3 mins a game), and you can see why a top recruit with legit NBA aspirations might not want to come here even if it is the better team. Hell, Hazen was a solid 3-star recruit and played only 45 mins more for the Hogs than Glasper who didn't even get to see a game.

I honestly don't think you will get any real commitments from a top guard as long as Macon and Barford are undecided and there is no real guarantee of quality mins Freshman year.
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Hogs49ers

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Sorry. I admit that I question most of the guys that are available in the late signing period. I realize some truly elite talent waits...

If I recall correctly, I believe Amauri may be rated the 14th best player in Michigan.  Maybe I've got my numbers wrong. Regardless, there is no doubt he is a fine player. I'm just not sure he is elite - a difference maker. The guys that sign with our conference opponents are all top 10-15 talents from their respective states, too. I'd like to see us recruit above our competition.

If Amauri selects the Hogs, I hope he is a world beater.

Amauri is ranked the 4th best player in Michigan on ESPN and the 5th best player on 247.
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rzrbackramsfan

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I think when a rebuttal is so thorough, and spot on, it should be the message board of equivalent of a sleeper hold where the person being rebutted cannot post for a day or maybe a week.

Good job KM, I know it's frustrating.
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ArkansasI

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Amauri is ranked the 4th best player in Michigan on ESPN and the 5th best player on 247.

Thanks.  Any idea why Michigan and Michigan State are not after him?
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I do not think Mike has a good plan in developing solid role players and program builders to help our team looking forward.  Trey should have Red shirted two years ago just like 2 of our current freshmen this year.  Mike needs a better program builder plan to stabilize our program. Teams like Arkansas need upper classmen who are good solid leaders.  So why are we not grooming one or two freshman a year to fill that role to stabilize us?.  Why waste a year. If our coach did his home work when recruiting a kid and the kid is coming to school to get a great education and not to jump to the league in a year then why not keep him and develop him?

I see two freshmen on our team this year who got only mop up minutes so wasted a year.  If they red shirted and developed they would be much better leaders and ball players in their 5th year.  Sure some will develop and jump early but what did you lose? They are not playing anyway.  Mid majors and teams like us should use the red shirt progrsm to great advantage.  Signees can not all be starters.  Some are long term program builders that stabilize a program.  We have 13 scholarships and only 9 play real minutes so some freshmen need to sit and develop.  Mike is putting our program on a dangerous up and down course if he does not use every tool in his tool bag. 
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The Hogfather

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I do not think Mike has a good plan in developing solid role players and program builders to help our team looking forward.  Trey should have Red shirted two years ago just like 2 of our current freshmen this year.  Mike needs a better program builder plan to stabilize our program. Teams like Arkansas need upper classmen who are good solid leaders.  So why are we not grooming one or two freshman a year to fill that role to stabilize us?.  Why waste a year. If our coach did his home work when recruiting a kid and the kid is coming to school to get a great education and not to jump to the league in a year then why not keep him and develop him?

I see two freshmen on our team this year who got only mop up minutes so wasted a year.  If they red shirted and developed they would be much better leaders and ball players in their 5th year.

I don't think they should've redshirted.  I just think Anderson has to find a way to start getting youngsters more minutes, especially early on, so they feel like they have a future and they can actually develop into solid, experienced players by at least their 2nd year.  I see it all over the college landscape where kids come in and contribute as freshmen.  And, I'm not just talking about the one-and-dones.  Guys like Rakym Felder at South Carolina this year.  He got 14 minutes a game for a Final Four team and he wasn't extremely sought after.
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King Kong

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Players in P5 conferences don't RS. RS outside of injury or transfer it is basically extinct in major college basketball.  So it's not an MA only issue.  Other programs are not doing this either.

That being said I agree understand your thought process of another year of development to maximize a players potential.

But, it's not currently a realistic option. The biggest reason being the transfers. For every Trey Thompson there are more Babbs, Whitts, Doobie and Wagner that are transferring out for numerous reasons. Being recruited over like Whitt, no future playing time Wagner and Doobie, or in Nick Babbs hard feels for not playing more the previous year.

And if you think RS those players above would have prevented them transferring you are incorrect. It probably would have convinced them to transfer after the first semester of their Freshman year.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 08:51:37 am by King Kong »
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Hawg Red

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Players in P5 conferences don't RS. RS outside of injury or transfer is basically extinct in major college basketball.  So it's not an MA only issue.  Other programs are not doing this either.

That's not true.

Justin Patton at Creighton redshirted for development last year and is now a lottery (ish) pick. Keith Stone redshirted for development at Florida. Tai Wynyard redshirted at Kentucky. Mamadi Diakite redshirted at Virginia. Gonzaga, not a P5 school but still a major college program, has utilized redshirting with a number of players, most notably Kelly Olynyk.

It's not as easy as it once was, but it's still be done all over college basketball and with some pretty good results. It's hard to swallow Thompson and Hazen playing as little as they did as freshmen, but that's what the coaches chose to do. I think if a player truly has the potential to be special but they need a year to develop some things, and they're okay with it, you can absolutely redshirt a player in today's game. It's being done.
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King Kong

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That's not true.

Justin Patton at Creighton redshirted for development last year and is now a lottery (ish) pick. Keith Stone redshirted for development at Florida. Tai Wynyard redshirted at Kentucky. Mamadi Diakite redshirted at Virginia. Gonzaga, not a P5 school but still a major college program, has utilized redshirting with a number of players, most notably Kelly Olynyk.

It's not as easy as it once was, but it's still be done all over college basketball and with some pretty good results. It's hard to swallow Thompson and Hazen playing as little as they did as freshmen, but that's what the coaches chose to do. I think if a player truly has the potential to be special but they need a year to develop some things, and they're okay with it, you can absolutely redshirt a player in today's game. It's being done.

This didn't disprove my statement in any way. I used the term basically to exclude minor statistical anomalies and I specifically mentioned P5. I specifically excluded excellent non P5 basketball programs like Creighton, Gonzaga and Witcha State. The reason being they typically don't recruit at high P5 top 25 recruiting class level. The lower the ranking for the recruit the greater the chance of RS

You provided 3 examples from P5 conference. Again the reason I used the word basically. If you can provide any statistical information proves incoming freshmen in P5 conference RS at a higher that 10% rate (excluding injury)  I will gladly eat my crow and concede my statement was incorrect.
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Very few redshirts in basketball. Not even arguable.
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jry04

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This didn't disprove my statement in any way. I used the term basically to exclude minor statistical anomalies and I specifically mentioned P5. I specifically excluded excellent non P5 basketball programs like Creighton, Gonzaga and Witcha State. The reason being they typically don't recruit at high P5 top 25 recruiting class level. The lower the ranking for the recruit the greater the chance of RS

You provided 3 examples from P5 conference. Again the reason I used the word basically. If you can provide any statistical information proves incoming freshmen in P5 conference RS at a higher that 10% rate (excluding injury)  I will gladly eat my crow and concede my statement was incorrect.
While I agree with your point, there isn't a P5 in basketball, it is a P6 or Big 6. Creighton is in the Big East, and anyone who doesn't consider the Big East a power conference is fooling themselves. I mean after all they routinely send 5-6 teams to the NCAAT, had last year's national champion, and typically have anywhere from 3 to 6 teams in the top 25 at any given time.

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mbgrulz

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I do not think Mike has a good plan in developing solid role players and program builders to help our team looking forward.  Trey should have Red shirted two years ago just like 2 of our current freshmen this year.  Mike needs a better program builder plan to stabilize our program. Teams like Arkansas need upper classmen who are good solid leaders.  So why are we not grooming one or two freshman a year to fill that role to stabilize us?.  Why waste a year. If our coach did his home work when recruiting a kid and the kid is coming to school to get a great education and not to jump to the league in a year then why not keep him and develop him?

I see two freshmen on our team this year who got only mop up minutes so wasted a year.  If they red shirted and developed they would be much better leaders and ball players in their 5th year.  Sure some will develop and jump early but what did you lose? They are not playing anyway.  Mid majors and teams like us should use the red shirt progrsm to great advantage.  Signees can not all be starters.  Some are long term program builders that stabilize a program.  We have 13 scholarships and only 9 play real minutes so some freshmen need to sit and develop.  Mike is putting our program on a dangerous up and down course if he does not use every tool in his tool bag. 
Mike is doing a really good job at Arkansas. Your arguments are not very good ones. If we had 15 scholarships to give instead of 13, you'd see more redshirts.
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ShadowHawg

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That's not true.

Justin Patton at Creighton redshirted for development last year and is now a lottery (ish) pick. Keith Stone redshirted for development at Florida. Tai Wynyard redshirted at Kentucky. Mamadi Diakite redshirted at Virginia. Gonzaga, not a P5 school but still a major college program, has utilized redshirting with a number of players, most notably Kelly Olynyk.

It's not as easy as it once was, but it's still be done all over college basketball and with some pretty good results. It's hard to swallow Thompson and Hazen playing as little as they did as freshmen, but that's what the coaches chose to do. I think if a player truly has the potential to be special but they need a year to develop some things, and they're okay with it, you can absolutely redshirt a player in today's game. It's being done.

Z Smith went to TTech for playing time. Word is that Hardy will probably go to another lesser program for playing time.

But it's your belief that we can build a winning program by signing guys who are willing to redshirt. Just how many recruits do you think are going to find an offer to redshirt as an incentive to sign?

Redshirting has never been and never will be a huge part of college basketball.
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