Draft

[OS2 (SW) Razor Back]

Am I the only one who thinks the draft should be reinstated?

[majestic]

Am I the only one who thinks the draft should be reinstated?

Evidently, yes.  What would be the point?

[Großer Kriegschwein]

I would not want draftees in the Army. It was hard enough with the clowns we had signing up to "kill some terrorists" the last 14 years. About half of them are unleadable.

[YankHog]

I don't think the draft would hurt any more than what the RIF is doing now or what the NCO and Officer Corps has dropped down to in the past 10 years,   it pains me to see the shape of both after 24 years in the Army, discipline has gone out the window, customs and courtesies are an afterthought or something that seems to have to be pulled out, even from the lowest rank to senior Field grades.  The systems in place now, EO, IG, SHARP and on and on have made it so easy for soldiers of all ranks to complain about the littlest things and get chain of command personnel in trouble for the simplest issues that they are gun shy to do anything and rendered ineffective. So you have an NCO Corps that won't lead, complain about work and everything else, and an officer corps that won't or can't lead because they are too gun shy to do anything to get them in trouble,  The days of a good butt chewing and get over it are long over......one complaint and that leader is done.....and soldiers feel entitled to 1 blocks for doing nothing (this doesn't reflect every NCO or Officer but the trends are disturbing)......it hurts to see it, and the funny thing is, finally got my retirement orders and I am dreading getting out...feeling that i'm leaving a young soldier behind somewhere in harms way that I should be next to.....

[Old Tusk]

How will this be paid for? Personally, I think your child will have to have served before you can serve in Congress.

[YankHog]

That's a whole 'nother can of worms on budget tusk, we have so many contractors filling traditional service member billets it's insane, I haven't looked at total numbers but am curious so may go searching for that today but start there, we are paying 2-3 times and in some cases more for contractors to do the same exact thing a service member can do, why have a contract security guard manning gates and paying them over $75k to check ID cards when you can have a $30k private/Airman doing the same thing, we shouldn't be RIF'ing we should be cutting the bloated civilian/contractor workforce of DoD, and something needs to be done about Contracting and who approves those, last yr when I was in the M.E. a bud who was an Aide told me they signed a contract for 12 SUV's (these contracts include maintenance and insurance) for 2.3 M,  how does that make any sense, there's over 750 civilian SUV's where I was that the military uses, do the numbers, it's sickening...

[YankHog]

From May 2012
"The latest budget documents seen by the Times has DoD at 801,000 civilian employees. In addition, 776,000 contractor personnel are employed by DoD. Together, the number of civilian employees and contractors is greater than the size of the active duty military. In testimony before Congress, Secretary of Defense Panetta actively resisted any move to force reductions in the civilian workforce."

in looking at this, you could cut 50K from the civ employees and 50K contractors and not even effect the military and get a much bigger savings,   also as we have gotten out of Iraq (well from the first time, I mean second time) and reduced the footprint in Afghanistan that same contractor force supporting those ops haven't shrunk and that's something else the Army is dealiing with now...

[YankHog]

oh and I totally agree with you Tusk, you want to serve in congress? were your children enrolled in the draft?  and this is just my opinion but it should be a requirement for any President to have served his country in the Armed Forces active or reserve doesn't matter,   how the h-e-double hockey sticks are you going to be the Commander in Chief of the greatest military in the world and not spend one day in the uniform....insane...

[Großer Kriegschwein]

I don't think the draft would hurt any more than what the RIF is doing now or what the NCO and Officer Corps has dropped down to in the past 10 years,   it pains me to see the shape of both after 24 years in the Army, discipline has gone out the window, customs and courtesies are an afterthought or something that seems to have to be pulled out, even from the lowest rank to senior Field grades.  The systems in place now, EO, IG, SHARP and on and on have made it so easy for soldiers of all ranks to complain about the littlest things and get chain of command personnel in trouble for the simplest issues that they are gun shy to do anything and rendered ineffective. So you have an NCO Corps that won't lead, complain about work and everything else, and an officer corps that won't or can't lead because they are too gun shy to do anything to get them in trouble,  The days of a good butt chewing and get over it are long over......one complaint and that leader is done.....and soldiers feel entitled to 1 blocks for doing nothing (this doesn't reflect every NCO or Officer but the trends are disturbing)......it hurts to see it, and the funny thing is, finally got my retirement orders and I am dreading getting out...feeling that i'm leaving a young soldier behind somewhere in harms way that I should be next to.....

I am leaving after 21 years, 5 months, 21 days and yes the Army as an organization is different, but my position as a senior NCO is to train Soldiers/Leaders and enforce policy. That is what over 21 years in the Infantry has taught me. I can connect and lead anyone, except the completely unwilling. That being said, the system was changed because leaders weren't taught the proper method for anything, or THEY were unwilling to do the work. I was harder on junior leaders than Soldiers. If a young Corporal or Sergeant becomes accustomed to overlooking minor things and not correcting things they KNOW are wrong is what has led us down the road to SPINELESS leaders. If NCOs did their job, corrected what they know was wrong, then the Army would be in harmony. Too many leaders believe that the only thing that matters is war-like training and that garrison duty is a hinderance to preparing for war. That is incorrect and will need to be remedied before we get in to a full-spectum war.

I will retire with a clear conscience. I did my job daily for over 20 years. I did my best and now it is in the hands of my subordinates. They were trained well.

[YankHog]

Spot on Krieg, and that permeates through both the NCO Corps and Officer Corps, although i'd say it's not quite as significant in the Combat Arms branches, it's still there....the system is now broke and I think it's been a combination of things, 14 years of war hasn't helped, shoving political correctness down everyone's throats hasn't helped, the RIF hasn't helped. and you are dead right, God help us if we get into a Full Spectrum war.

[Großer Kriegschwein]

Spot on Krieg, and that permeates through both the NCO Corps and Officer Corps, although i'd say it's not quite as significant in the Combat Arms branches, it's still there....the system is now broke and I think it's been a combination of things, 14 years of war hasn't helped, shoving political correctness down everyone's throats hasn't helped, the RIF hasn't helped. and you are dead right, God help us if we get into a Full Spectrum war.

I don't think you get what I'm saying.

Change is inevitable. It's not a bad thing. Unfortunately a loud minority of Leaders outwardly belittle the systems we currently have in place. It undermines the whole thing, especially when it is done in front of subordinates.

MacArthur changed West Point when he was the Superintendant in the early '20s. He got rid of the hazing, summer camps, changed the course syllabus to include humanities and sciences, introduced modern tactical training and placed the onus of implementation on the Tac-officers. The whole time he was fighting the DOGs (disgruntled old veterans) that opposed any change to a system they believed worked. But the bottom line is that MacArthur was correct that in order to lead citizen Soldiers of the time, leaders needed to be flexible, fair, impartial, and have a connection with the "new" generation of citizen Soldier. His hypothesis is just as correct today as it was 90 years ago. Populations change. Generations are different. So, Leaders must be adaptive in order to connect with those being led. Then you can develop those relationships into a Mentor-Mentee environment.

Leading should be regular and on-going. Unfortunately most people lead by reacting to things after they have gone wrong from lack of planning, development of a clear standard and supervision. It should focus on development and personal accountability (or owning your mistakes in Army-speak). Personal accountability is THE most desirable trait that I look for in a junior Soldier. Once I see it, I start dropping more and more responsibilities until I find out what they are capable of, then I back off and see how they react. Negotiating responsibility is like an interval run, you get more used to it the more you do it and then you can sustain a high heart rate longer and longer. But you see, everyone is different, they are all individuals working within the same institution with the same standards. So close management of each individual's development is absolutely neccessary to keep them from breaking under the strain. I owed that to each and every one of my subordinates. None of them would say I was an easy man to work for, but they all respected me for what I was willing to go through for them. The personal attention that I paid to each one of them individually paid off in their perfomance and loyalty to the Institution which, to them, I represented.

One of my favorite books on leadership is "Once an Eagle" by Anton Myrer. Lessons that will always stand out to me were:

"That's the whole challenge of life - to act with honor and hope and generosity, no whatter what you've drawn. You can't help when or what you were born, you may not be able to help how you die; but you can - and you should - try to pass the days between as a good man."

"If it comes to a choice between being a good soldier and a good human being -- try to be a good human being"."

"Self righteousness.  It's the occupational disease of the soldier, and it's the worst sin in the world.....because it spawns arrogance, selfishness, indifference."

"Read, think, disagree with everything, if you like --- but force your mind outward."

"Inflexibility reaps the fruits of it's own destruction."

-All Quotes from Sad Sam Damon

"When you ask men to die, to endure great hardship, they have the right to know the
purpose that demands that sacrifice.... They have the right to be treated like men—with
all honor due them—all honor due their inextinguishable souls."

[YankHog]

Hmmmmm, I never said change was bad, although I do agree with you that change must occur and we must adapt with the times otherwise we are lost, it must be the right change and not change for the sake of changing, every aspect of the military has adapted with the times, drill, ceremony, combat, leadership, administration, culture, maybe i'm still missing your point, is your point that there are a loud minority of leaders currently belittling the system and this is the reason for the state of the current force? N

and yes Macarthur did change a culture and he nailed it with his farewell speech at West Point, and i'd recommend all those soldiers out there who haven't to read it because it still rings true today....

[Großer Kriegschwein]

Hmmmmm, I never said change was bad, although I do agree with you that change must occur and we must adapt with the times otherwise we are lost, it must be the right change and not change for the sake of changing, every aspect of the military has adapted with the times, drill, ceremony, combat, leadership, administration, culture, maybe i'm still missing your point, is your point that there are a loud minority of leaders currently belittling the system and this is the reason for the state of the current force? N

and yes Macarthur did change a culture and he nailed it with his farewell speech at West Point, and i'd recommend all those soldiers out there who haven't to read it because it still rings true today....

Many leaders lack the good-faith effort in implementing change, hence rigging the system to prove that what they "want" to do is actually what should be done. See PRT as an example. I have my opinion on it, but I'd never voice that to my subordinates.

[YankHog]

Roger,  any leader who voices dissension in front of his subordinates is no leader in my book.

[hogginbama]

After almost 27 yrs doing what I once loved, I have now made the decision that it is time to move on. The Army that I joined in '88 is a shell of itself. The once proud NCO Corps is a shell of it's former self. While there are still some great ones around, they are far and few between. Wanna see an example of it, the many commands have  social media pages for it's members to share TTPs and give quick guidance...they have quickly eroded to nothing more than those who claim to be NCOs complaining about work hours, being held to standards, etc.

[pigture perfect]

I think every young man and most young women would be much better citizens with at least 2 years of military service. Even if it were reserve or national guard.

[Großer Kriegschwein]

There are plenty of reasons the NCO Corps is different. It was similar after Vietnam. Those two wars chewed up the best leadership we had at the Platoon level and below. Constant ARFORGEN cycles have led to cutting corners and honestly, not focusing on garrison discipline has eroded the reputation of the Army to local areas.

[HawgWild]

Good discussion going on here guys. Did y'all read the article in The Atlantic back in November 2012 titled "General Failure" It talks about how the culture has changed in the highest ranks as well, and not for the better.

"Looking back on the troubled wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, many observers are content to lay blame on the Bush administration. But inept leadership by American generals was also responsible for the failure of those wars. A culture of mediocrity has taken hold within the Army's leadership rank—if it is not uprooted, the country's next war is unlikely to unfold any better than the last two."


http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/11/general-failure/309148/

[Old Tusk]

Many years back, the USAF changed from our WW II style uniforms to a nice polyester business suites. At first, it was thought to just be stupid, but we soon learned it was the start of a whole new mentality. The USAF needs to be run like a business. Therefore, we need managers not leaders. We had a working group for everything. It got to the point people started to believe that we were a democracy. Everyone gets a say. Officers believed they needed an MBA to get promoted. In the end the USAF was turned over to managers.

[husker71]

^^^  I agree with most except we need managers and not leaders. After years and years training people to manage our hotels it was my opinion that managers were a dime a dozen but our truly successful properties had leaders and not managers.  We had some ex military (as am I) who were great about making sure that the time cards were all correct and that there was clean towels in the restrooms but could not lead the "troops" in times leadership was needed.  One decided he would come in at 4 am and leave at noon just before the real action of the day started.  He was a shortimer.  They all seemed to have perfectly clean desks and spent most of their time in the back office.  But then we got some ex military that were dynamic and were soon promoted to regional jobs where they were over multiple units.  I think you could tell fairly early in training if they would be good or medicore.