Serious question- All input welcome (HIM)

[007 License To Squeal]

If a person was heavily invested in physical PMs, how would you suggest a solid diversification.......focused on some growth, but minimum loss?

[PEtrader]

If you are growth focused, but don't want loss, you should avoid PMs.  The are very volatile.  Look at the mkt today vs gold.

[PEtrader]

PMs have their place,  but alot of you guys bought into the fear trade that we have been telling you was there.  If you didn't sell,  now you are going to pay.  Might go back up a bit in the short term,  but will get crushed as the economy comes back and QE is halted.

[Old Tusk]

PMs should be the last piece of a portfolio , a.nd then only for specific purposes. For instance, my IRA has no PM allowcation because I am 68 and miight have to use it. A conseretive aplroxach is ,called for.My trust is for my grand kids with at least a30 yr timefrAme. A more aggressive investment strategy is called for. I chose to put 10% into an insurance policy. No one here knows what will happen next week much less in 30 yrs. But you need income noww. There are many munis out there that bave 6% yield. Build a portfolio of them until u have a steady income stream which you canuse to invest in riskier assets. PMs are insurance so you need something to insure first.

[Lanny]

Precious metals should be looked upon as a hobby, be careful about investing heavily in anything this volatile.  Rare coin collecting is the better investment, coins don't drop as quick with the silver and gold market.  Look at Morgan dollars and barber half dollars, franklins

[dafe1]

There is certainly a place for metals in a portfolio. Now is the time for platinum & palladium though - not gold and silver.

Rare coins are a great alternative investment. You have to verify what you're doing and who you're doing it with though. There is a lot of misinformation in that market. Old does not mean rare; you need to make sure you're invested in key dates and rarities that are not linked to metals whatsoever.

Investing in common date Saints, liberties, Morgans, etc is just investing in gold/silver while exposing yourself to the premiums market dictated by your large TV marketing companies.  You really should exercise caution with that.

[OldPoop]

IMO rare coins are like baseball cards and rare stamps.  In good times when people have income to play with they go up and are great investments.   In tough times people have better uses for their money, like food and shelter.  If you are of the opinion that everything is going to be fine, and you turn out to be right, it 's a good investment.

However, I've read that in countries that have gone through currency collapse in recent history, only the % and weight of precious metal in the coin was of value.  No one cared about production numbers or age.  In that situation your money would go farther with plain bullion.

[Lanny]

IMO rare coins are like baseball cards and rare stamps.  In good times when people have income to play with they go up and are great investments.   In tough times people have better uses for their money, like food and shelter.  If you are of the opinion that everything is going to be fine, and you turn out to be right, it 's a good investment.

However, I've read that in countries that have gone through currency collapse in recent history, only the % and weight of precious metal in the coin was of value.  No one cared about production numbers or age.  In that situation your money would go farther with plain bullion.

rare coins will hold value over bullion

[HOGLIGULA]

rare coins will hold value over bullion

Unless you experience rapid inflation, see ex, Germany after(but during) WWII, Japan in the early to  mid 90's, and pretty much any other country over the last 60 years.  Coins become like any other PM, which requires a  need outside normal collectors for that commodity, which is only  normally needed only in high inflation scenarios(paper money is hauled by the truck load. I get that investing in coins is easier(has another valuation other than the price of gold) than owning physical gold(market) or other pm's (less risk if only  based on rarity), but there are always those who think any pm investment is destined for failure.  If you invest in anything you have to understand the investment to a degree.  Now how likely is hyper inflation to happen?  Not likely so holding coins is good alternative to buying gold on the open market currentky

[Lanny]

purchased some rare walking liberty,barber halves and a roll of ASE today

[HognotinMemphis]

rare coins will hold value over bullion

This is fact.

[PEtrader]

rare coins will hold value over bullion

I have always been intrigued by that on a personal level.  I had a client back in the day that split his investments with us and his coin collection. 

You guys that buy coins, how do you select them and do you buy and hold?

[Lanny]

I have always been intrigued by that on a personal level.  I had a client back in the day that split his investments with us and his coin collection. 

You guys that buy coins, how do you select them and do you buy and hold?

I own many sets of coins, the Key date coins hold value and don't swing with the price of gold and silver.  The better investment is rare coins over bullion however I collect for a hobby, Maples,Panda's and Silver Eagles

[Lanny]

Here are some Key Date coins to consider

1885 Liberty Nickel
1885 CC Morgan Dollar
1894 Morgan Dollar
1893 S Morgan Dollar
1932 S Washington
1932 D Washington
1916 D Mercury Dime
1922 weak D Lincoln
1909 S VDB Lincoln

Here's a neat site to review.  Link

Yes I own all of the above

[007 License To Squeal]

purchased some rare walking liberty,barber halves and a roll of ASE today

We need to talk.  I have some interesting coins.  What do you think about AGEs?

[HOGLIGULA]

/
This is fact.

Only in  a normal market( banking on rarity as a selling/ value point works for the intelligent investor.  You do not believe in commodities why are you tasting again?

[HOGLIGULA]

Here are some Key Date coins to consider

1885 Liberty Nickel
1885 CC Morgan Dollar
1894 Morgan Dollar
1893 S Morgan Dollar
1932 S Washington
1932 D Washington
1916 D Mercury Dime
1922 weak D Lincoln
1909 S VDB Lincoln

Here's a neat site to review.  Link

Yes I own all of the above

Lanny, a quick question how much do these cost?  I know you posted a value guide, but what are actually paying vs the price of gold or silver?

[Lanny]

Lanny, a quick question how much do these cost?  I know you posted a value guide, but what are actually paying vs the price of gold or silver?

depends on the grade for the coin and if the coins are slabbed.  Gold and silver values have little swing on rare coins

[dafe1]

Rare coins are an entirely separate market from gold/silver. If you're even talking about the two in relation to one another you are not investing in true rarities.

Being slabbed doesn't mean rare. Having a premium does not mean rare. Being old does not mean rare. Being numismatic does not mean rare.

[HOGLIGULA]

Rare coins are an entirely separate market from gold/silver. If you're even talking about the two in relation to one another you are not investing in true rarities.

Being slabbed doesn't mean rare. Having a premium does not mean rare. Being old does not mean rare. Being numismatic does not mean rare.

Thanks, for nothing.   Some people are investing in coins based on the actual gold or silver content not any other factors. 

[Lanny]

Rare coins are not necessary tied with gold and silver.  Look at the values for 1885,1886 and 1912 S Liberty Nickels, 1955 DD, 1909 S VDB Lincoln Penny, 1877 Indian Head Penny.  A slabbed coin means it has been checked and proved to be legit.  There are alot of counterfeit coins out there and the best way to tell for rare coins are slabbed.

[OldPoop]

Rare coins are not necessary tied with gold and silver.  Look at the values for 1885,1886 and 1912 S Liberty Nickels, 1955 DD, 1909 S VDB Lincoln Penny, 1877 Indian Head Penny.  A slabbed coin means it has been checked and proved to be legit.  There are alot of counterfeit coins out there and the best way to tell for rare coins are slabbed.

I guess they haven't figured out yet how to counterfeit the cardboard slabs.

[dafe1]

Being slabbed does not mean rare. 450,000
Slabbed 1924 St. Gaudens... numismatic, but common and generic - anything but rare. Modern bullion, GAEs and whatnot, slabbed and graded - not rare whatsoever. Common date Morgan's: hundreds of thousands graded and slabbed. Not rare.

Being graded and slabbed is more of an authentication thing than anything. 80million+ coins have been graded between PCGS and NGC. Only 2-3% of those you could consider rare

[Lanny]

 Slabbed containters can be counterfeited but unless you're an idiot, one can tell by weight and magnetic test on coins.

[Dumb ole famrboy]

Rare coins - you buy at retail and sale at wholesale. Sure you can sell your collection at retail - 1 coin at a time - but there is not much liquidity in this approach. 

[OldPoop]

Slabbed containters can be counterfeited but unless you're an idiot, one can tell by weight and magnetic test on coins.

Tungsten is not magnetic.
So you had better have a very accurate scale, and know exactly what that slab weighs without the coin, and know the true weight of the coin, to make a correct assessment.

[dafe1]

Counterfeiting is not a major issue because your two major grading agencies, PCGS and NGC, back their grade and authenticity with a replacement value guarantee.

[OldPoop]

Counterfeiting is not a major issue because your two major grading agencies, PCGS and NGC, back their grade and authenticity with a replacement value guarantee.

Cool.

So if I can find a cheap slabbed counterfeit, all I have to do is send it in to them and they will replace it with the real thing?   

I can see some real possibilities here, I think I have been missing out by not being interested in graded coins.

[dafe1]

No, the grading agencies only back the authenticity of the coins in their product/slab. If you have a counterfeit slab you're screwed. That being said, your more reputable and higher end brokers will guarantee that what they are selling is an authentic PCGS/NGC holder.

Counterfeit slabs are extremely rare anyways though. Just use reputable brokers and there isn't any risk of a counterfeit slab or coin.

[OldPoop]

No, the grading agencies only back the authenticity of the coins in their product/slab. If you have a counterfeit slab you're screwed. That being said, your more reputable and higher end brokers will guarantee that what they are selling is an authentic PCGS/NGC holder.

Counterfeit slabs are extremely rare anyways though. Just use reputable brokers and there isn't any risk of a counterfeit slab or coin.

So that brings us right back to square one.

My point is that if crooks can counterfeit coins and paper currency well enough to pass, how difficult could it be to print a slab, logo and all?   Perhaps they slab an excellent fake coin, or perhaps they include a real coin, just inflate the grade.

I agree, so as long as you buy from a reputable broker that bought directly from the grading agency you will be alright. 
Okay, what then?  You are holding a real coin with an accurate grade, but you are not a reputable dealer or a grading agency.  So who do you sell to?   To someone that trusts you are not knowingly or unknowingly selling a fake?   For safety do you never ever buy from an individual?   Do you sell it back to the dealer?  If so that means he is buying slabs off the street, which brings the chance for fraud into the chain of events.

I admit I have never bought or looked into slabbed coins, so I am an outsider and could be wrong.  But imo, in the long run, they are not any safer than 1 oz bullion (which is easy to weigh) and could possibly be less safe since much more profit could be made from just one fake.

[dafe1]

So that brings us right back to square one.

My point is that if crooks can counterfeit coins and paper currency well enough to pass, how difficult could it be to print a slab, logo and all?   Perhaps they slab an excellent fake coin, or perhaps they include a real coin, just inflate the grade.

I agree, so as long as you buy from a reputable broker that bought directly from the grading agency you will be alright. 
Okay, what then?  You are holding a real coin with an accurate grade, but you are not a reputable dealer or a grading agency.  So who do you sell to?   To someone that trusts you are not knowingly or unknowingly selling a fake?   For safety do you never ever buy from an individual?   Do you sell it back to the dealer?  If so that means he is buying slabs off the street, which brings the chance for fraud into the chain of events.

I admit I have never bought or looked into slabbed coins, so I am an outsider and could be wrong.  But imo, in the long run, they are not any safer than 1 oz bullion (which is easy to weigh) and could possibly be less safe since much more profit could be made from just one fake.

Your high-end reputable dealers all have top notch traders/numismatists which is why they can guarantee the authenticity of the product. You can always have appraisals done by these places. They also buy products. You can also go the route of one of the major auction houses.

It really isn't a big deal. Counterfeits are too easy to spot in this industry and are thus extremely rare. It's even more rare to find a counterfeit slab. Counterfeiting is primarily done in bullion markets - i.e. bars of zinc with gold around the edges.