Should guys that go undrafted be allowed to return to college?

[bigpigpimpin]

What is your opinion on this?

[alohawg]

Positive and negative in it, double-edged sword. The negative being even more kids declaring, with some getting free agent invites thus likely ending their pro career opportunities plus not returning to school.

[VirginiaHog]

No, then almost every junior would "test the waters".

[BearsBisonsBoars]

No, then almost every junior would "test the waters".

I'm not sure why this is a problem.

So many kids get bad advice and jump early. Why not let them finish their degree instead of walking away from years of work and toll on their bodies for essentially nothing. 

[hvsupastar]

I wouldn't have a problem if draft eligible kids were allowed to hire agents even if they don't go pro. Had Kirkland had an agent tell him he would benefit more from a senior season it might be taken differently than coming from a coach who may benefit from you being there.

[Mike_e]

What would you do with the kids you signed to take their places?  Say sorry guys but so and so changed his mind and we just don't have room for you now?

Sometimes being an adult bites but you just have to live with your choices.

[smb]

I think after the NFL evaluations should have 3 days to say yes or no to go for the draft. At least it should give you an idea on how you stack up against others.

[Justifiable Hogicide]

Only if you make the advising "sports agent" pay the costs of the education.

[Hoggish1]

Seems reasonable if they don't hire an agent.

[smb]

Seems reasonable if they don't hire an agent.

My question would be can you trust an agent?

[Justifiable Hogicide]

My question would be can you trust an agent?

You "can", but you can also get legal advice from a bailbondsman.

[hvsupastar]

You "can", but you can also get legal advice from a bailbondsman.

At the point he gives a kid advice, he becomes an agent.

[UAfanatic]

If it was more like baseball where there are a bazillion rounds and there is no 'declaring' or agents..

[lahawg1]

What would you do with the kids you signed to take their places?  Say sorry guys but so and so changed his mind and we just don't have room for you now?

Sometimes being an adult bites but you just have to live with your choices.

This, at their age most only see $$$$$, but they do make a decision they have to live with.  There is no going back

[k.c.hawg]

I don't understand why this is always debated so heavily. Guys like DK and AC came to play college football for one reason and one reason only, advance to the NFL. After 3 years they exercised their option and said I'm ready to sacrifice college, college football, meals, workout facilities and living expenses to find out if I'm an NFL player.

I saw plenty of people saying yesterday that AC and J-Will both made mistakes even though they were drafted in the 5th round. J-Will will get a check for $225k to $240k and will almost assuredly make the roster his first year at another $450k all while working with NFL coaching and while trying to prove he is a player that will be on that roster for years to come. There is zero guarantee he would have gone any higher next year and gotten a better contract. He already has his degree to fall back on.

AC will get a check for $170k to $180k and stands a good chance at a first year at another $450k and a year on the roster or at worst on a practice  squad making $80k while having the same opportunities as listed above. If in the end his NFL career does not work out he will have made the equivalent of 6 to 10 years of pay of a college grad in their first job after graduation while spending a year to prove he is an NFL player.

No way I can say either of those guys made any mistake in their choices. I think both are considerably better NFL RB prospects than Knile but Knile was drafted a full 2 rounds higher and has made $2m in a 3 year career. For players that aren't a sure fire first or second round guy it is always going to be a crap shoot and generally an extra year of college football is never going to be the difference maker unless it is happenstance.

When DK gets a $2500 free agent signing bonus and travel expenses to go to a training camp he is going to think he made the right decision because these guys believe in themselves even if it is blind hope. He will feel certain he is going to get an opportunity and he will seize it. He will look at the dozens of guys that make it from a practice squad to a roster and not the hundreds that don't as his affirmation that he is going to make it happen. I wish him luck.

And no I don't think these guys should be allowed to come back and play college football. At some point we enter the adult world and we have to make our own do overs. They will be welcome to come back and get their degrees and can get help with that from the RF if they chose to do so. 90 % of the Jr's that play D1 football come to college to play 4 years of college football, have 4 years of the college experience and end up doing so. There NFL aspirations are "With four years of coaching and experience I could put myself in position to get drafted." 10% come out of high school knowing to play in the NFL they have to be in college 3 years and that is there mission. Train 3 years at a college football training camp for the NFL. Those guys need to live their dream and I will wish them all the luck and hopefully see them at Arrowhead on a Sunday, Monday or Thursday in the near future. If not I wish them well in their next endeavor.

[BearsBisonsBoars]

What would you do with the kids you signed to take their places?  Say sorry guys but so and so changed his mind and we just don't have room for you now?

Sometimes being an adult bites but you just have to live with your choices.

Change the scholarship rules where you can keep them, they get an extra year of eligibility in addition to RS, but they can't play or practice with the team that year.

And if they want to jump, they can without having to sit a year as long as they jump before summer practice starts.

[RME]

Change the scholarship rules where you can keep them, they get an extra year of eligibility in addition to RS, but they can't play or practice with the team that year.

And if they want to jump, they can without having to sit a year as long as they jump before summer practice starts.

Interesting idea, but if I'm following correctly, wouldn't that prolong a guy's road to the draft by 2 more years?

Sit out for a year, then play the next season, and enter the draft after that season? If they're already considering jumping to the draft, I doubt they'd hang around 2 more years.

[Grizzlyfan]

I don't understand why this is always debated so heavily. Guys like DK and AC came to play college football for one reason and one reason only, advance to the NFL. After 3 years they exercised their option and said I'm ready to sacrifice college, college football, meals, workout facilities and living expenses to find out if I'm an NFL player.

I saw plenty of people saying yesterday that AC and J-Will both made mistakes even though they were drafted in the 5th round. J-Will will get a check for $225k to $240k and will almost assuredly make the roster his first year at another $450k all while working with NFL coaching and while trying to prove he is a player that will be on that roster for years to come. There is zero guarantee he would have gone any higher next year and gotten a better contract. He already has his degree to fall back on.

AC will get a check for $170k to $180k and stands a good chance at a first year at another $450k and a year on the roster or at worst on a practice  squad making $80k while having the same opportunities as listed above. If in the end his NFL career does not work out he will have made the equivalent of 6 to 10 years of pay of a college grad in their first job after graduation while spending a year to prove he is an NFL player.

No way I can say either of those guys made any mistake in their choices. I think both are considerably better NFL RB prospects than Knile but Knile was drafted a full 2 rounds higher and has made $2m in a 3 year career. For players that aren't a sure fire first or second round guy it is always going to be a crap shoot and generally an extra year of college football is never going to be the difference maker unless it is happenstance.

When DK gets a $2500 free agent signing bonus and travel expenses to go to a training camp he is going to think he made the right decision because these guys believe in themselves even if it is blind hope. He will feel certain he is going to get an opportunity and he will seize it. He will look at the dozens of guys that make it from a practice squad to a roster and not the hundreds that don't as his affirmation that he is going to make it happen. I wish him luck.

And no I don't think these guys should be allowed to come back and play college football. At some point we enter the adult world and we have to make our own do overs. They will be welcome to come back and get their degrees and can get help with that from the RF if they chose to do so. 90 % of the Jr's that play D1 football come to college to play 4 years of college football, have 4 years of the college experience and end up doing so. There NFL aspirations are "With four years of coaching and experience I could put myself in position to get drafted." 10% come out of high school knowing to play in the NFL they have to be in college 3 years and that is there mission. Train 3 years at a college football training camp for the NFL. Those guys need to live their dream and I will wish them all the luck and hopefully see them at Arrowhead on a Sunday, Monday or Thursday in the near future. If not I wish them well in their next endeavor.

They made a mistake for Hog fans.  Not necessarily themselves.  That's why this is debated every year.

[Poker_hog]

I think the nfl should require a college degree.  Then maybe these marginal guys would focus on getting thier education.

[jm]

They should absolutely be allowed to return, as long as they are in good standing on the academic side and don't have an agent etc. There is no reason not to allow it. Of course, there would have to be room on the roster for their return. I don't know how many coaches would save a roster spot for a guy who has declared, so even if it were allowed it may not be possible for most players.

[RME]

I think the nfl should require a college degree.  Then maybe these marginal guys would focus on getting thier education.

Degrees can be attained through countless ways nowadays. For instance, Collins can just as easily finish up his U of A degree in Seattle as he could being on campus. Online courses, global campuses, and online self-paced courses have made it to where a student almost doesn't even need to step foot on a campus to get a degree.

When it comes down to it, I doubt these guys who declare early factor in how close they are to getting their degree.

[BearsBisonsBoars]

Interesting idea, but if I'm following correctly, wouldn't that prolong a guy's road to the draft by 2 more years?

Sit out for a year, then play the next season, and enter the draft after that season? If they're already considering jumping to the draft, I doubt they'd hang around 2 more years.

Real time, yes. Damage to body, which is more important regarding NFL chances? Not so much.

And just to clarify, I'm talking about the incoming Freshman sitting rather than losing his scholarship - not the undrafted junior. The motivation behind not letting them practice is so that it doesn't just turn into a second redshirt. They can still lift and participate in meetings/etc.

[bphi11ips]

Why isn't everyone eligible for the draft, just like baseball?  Have the draft first.  Give the player the choice whether he wants to leave. 

The current system benefits NFL owners and reduces player bargaining position by forcing them to choose BEFORE the draft.  It's a monopolistic practice in restraint of free trade, but guess what, the NFL is a monopoly. 

[k.c.hawg]

Why isn't everyone eligible for the draft, just like baseball?  Have the draft first.  Give the player the choice whether he wants to leave. 

The current system benefits NFL owners and reduces player bargaining position by forcing them to choose BEFORE the draft.  It's a monopolistic practice in restraint of free trade, but guess what, the NFL is a monopoly. 

There are not any 18 year old kids that are ready for the NFL. Throughout history you might be able to find enough to fill up both hands but I highly doubt it. Many college All Americans aren't ready for the NFL. This isn't baseball, this isn't basketball. It is a brutal sport that an 18 year old cannot stand up to. My mistake I thought you meant like the high school baseball draft. I've contended all along that college should let the one and done's and 2 year guys come back in basketball....I don't see letting 3rd year guys come back, the extra year will make very little difference in draft position if not hurt it.

[Cinco de Hogo]

I hate to say it but for a lot of these guys a college degree means a supervisors job in the shipping and receiving department of some factory or transportation company.   I know Arkansas takes care of the guys that want a job but it's not going be a glory job for a lot of them.  Coaching, sales, lower level lead or supervisor, Enterprise RAC, etc...

A senior year and a degree vs the chance of injury is a decision that's not as easy as we like to think it is. 

[Inhogswetrust]

What is your opinion on this?

No. A person needs to live with the decisions they make. They also need to be careful when making them and what they wish for....................

[Ex-Trumpet]

Most big-money jobs require a college degree--even masters or pHd's.  In addition most require a well documented resume in a given field.

That said, I don't have a problem with NFL, NBA, PGA, etc. requiring college degrees.  Real degrees.  It would probably help a lot of the athletes after their careers are over, too.

College sports would be better, pro sports would be better, and the athletes themselves would be better.

And, yes, I know it will never happen.

[SemperHawg]

The sport of Football both at the College and NFL level is the king of all of the sports industry right now.  It offers a year round media cycle of compelling stories and a wildly popular product put on the field every season for your viewing pleasure.  Why they would consider changing anything about the recipe they have right now would be beyond me.  All of you talking about all the different ways other sports handle the draft, ask yourself this.  Are any of those other sports as popular or successful as football?

Oldest saying in the book, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

[Cinco de Hogo]

The way things are protects the intregity of amateur athletics but it does nothing to protect the amateur athlete and in fact penalizes them.  Can't they come up with something, some player bargaining position that allowed the players make a better decision based on a gaurntee from the NFL.  The active NFL players have a players association and collective bargaining agreement.  Is it fair that incoming players don't benifit from that?  Make the NFL commit if the induce you to leave college.  I have a feeling they would begin telling these players to stay in college if they aren't ready.

[bphi11ips]

There are not any 18 year old kids that are ready for the NFL. Throughout history you might be able to find enough to fill up both hands but I highly doubt it. Many college All Americans aren't ready for the NFL. This isn't baseball, this isn't basketball. It is a brutal sport that an 18 year old cannot stand up to. My mistake I thought you meant like the high school baseball draft. I've contended all along that college should let the one and done's and 2 year guys come back in basketball....I don't see letting 3rd year guys come back, the extra year will make very little difference in draft position if not hurt it.

I don't think there are many 20 year olds ready for the NFL, but the market will take care of itself without false barriers to entry.  Here's a thought:

Allow NFL teams to draft anyone anytime.  15?  Colleges are extending offers to 15 year olds now.  Is a 15 year old ready for the NFL?  Of course not.  But there's a thing called an option that would change everything in a free market economy.  You want to sign Leonard Fournette at 15?  Pay him whatever the market will bear to lock him up, give him the best training, nutrition and health care money can buy, pay for his college, and decide in advance how long he will stay in college.  In a free market, all of these things would be negotiable.

[Cinco de Hogo]

They made a mistake for Hog fans.  Not necessarily themselves.  That's why this is debated every year.

Exactly and the reason the were drafted where the were is because that what their value is to a NFL team not because every NFL team made a mistake.  Truth, they do make mistakes but this early only us fans know that. LOL! 

[Cinco de Hogo]

I don't think there are many 20 year olds ready for the NFL, but the market will take care of itself without false barriers to entry.  Here's a thought:

Allow NFL teams to draft anyone anytime.  15?  Colleges are extending offers to 15 year olds now.  Is a 15 year old ready for the NFL?  Of course not.  But there's a thing called an option that would change everything in a free market economy.  You want to sign Leonard Fournette at 15?  Pay him whatever the market will bear to lock him up, give him the best training, nutrition and health care money can buy, pay for his college, and decide in advance how long he will stay in college.  In a free market, all of these things would be negotiable.

Or just do what best and require a college degree like a lot of companies do.  Doesn't that solve the problem just as well as removing all restrictions and at the same time serve the majority of the players better after their playing days are over.

[RME]

I don't think there are many 20 year olds ready for the NFL, but the market will take care of itself without false barriers to entry.  Here's a thought:

Allow NFL teams to draft anyone anytime.  15?  Colleges are extending offers to 15 year olds now.  Is a 15 year old ready for the NFL?  Of course not.  But there's a thing called an option that would change everything in a free market economy.  You want to sign Leonard Fournette at 15?  Pay him whatever the market will bear to lock him up, give him the best training, nutrition and health care money can buy, pay for his college, and decide in advance how long he will stay in college.  In a free market, all of these things would be negotiable.

What you're describing is almost identical to European and Latin American soccer youth academies. What would happen to college sports if NFL teams were able to open youth academies? Players are chosen at young ages and then groomed to play that sport.

For example: Dallas Cowboys have a U15 team, a U18 team, etc. that will play the Green Bay Packers U15 and U18 teams, until the main club decides that player is ready for the League.

[RME]

Or just do what best and require a college degree like a lot of companies do.  Doesn't that solve the problem just as well as removing all restrictions and at the same time serve the majority of the players better after their playing days are over.

You guys act like these players have no ability to get a degree once they decide to make the jump to the NFL. Like I said earlier, degrees can be attained in today's world in a multitude of ways. If a guy wants to get his degree, he very easily can do so. The requirement to have a degree to play professional sports is nonsense.

The player can choose how he wants to be "better served." If Collins or Henry or Philon want to finish their degree while playing in the NFL, and if they can balance their time, they can easily do so.

[Hogarusa]

No

[BearsBisonsBoars]

You guys act like these players have no ability to get a degree once they decide to make the jump to the NFL. Like I said earlier, degrees can be attained in today's world in a multitude of ways. If a guy wants to get his degree, he very easily can do so. The requirement to have a degree to play professional sports is nonsense.

The player can choose how he wants to be "better served." If Collins or Henry or Philon want to finish their degree while playing in the NFL, and if they can balance their time, they can easily do so.

Yeah, but a lot of them can't, though. Think about J-Will needing to take care of his mom.

So many of these kids' families really really struggle. I imagine even one year of school where they're having to pay even partially out of pocket is impossible in many cases. It's seems to be hard enough simply without them working wherever and bringing in money. Why not let them finish up and have a better life?

I don't believe in paying players, and I certainly don't believe in universal "free" education, but I believe these kids have paid for their ride and generally bring in more money to the school than the cost of their tuition. We have a responsibility for their education.

[Cinco de Hogo]

You guys act like these players have no ability to get a degree once they decide to make the jump to the NFL. Like I said earlier, degrees can be attained in today's world in a multitude of ways. If a guy wants to get his degree, he very easily can do so. The requirement to have a degree to play professional sports is nonsense.

The player can choose how he wants to be "better served." If Collins or Henry or Philon want to finish their degree while playing in the NFL, and if they can balance their time, they can easily do so.

Ha your the one that said a 15 year old should be able to choose I was just going overboard the other way.  I'll say I have the high ground as to what's "best".  I would bet very few parents want their 15 year old son in the NFL.

[justmakeit2thebcs]

Absolutely not.   They are given a draft grade by the NFL.  This grade is give before the national signing day so that teams can other kids.  DK knew where he stood and the possibility existed that he might not get drafted.  now imagine every Jr doing what DK did.  No spring practice, no class.

If they didn't take any money, remained eligible, were willing to walk-back on and pay their own way, and if there was room (I still think there should count towards the 85), then maybe.

Most are going to a shot as a free agent, which is all the wanted anyway.   DK's issues probably can't be corrected by another year in college anyway, if they could teams would have drafted him.

[RME]

Yeah, but a lot of them can't, though. Think about J-Will needing to take care of his mom.

So many of these kids' families really really struggle. I imagine even one year of school where they're having to pay even partially out of pocket is impossible in many cases. It's seems to be hard enough simply without them working wherever and bringing in money. Why not let them finish up and have a better life?

I don't believe in paying players, and I certainly don't believe in universal "free" education, but I believe these kids have paid for their ride and generally bring in more money to the school than the cost of their tuition. We have a responsibility for their education.

You're definitely right. I do agree with you on everything you said except for your last statement. The individual player has a responsibility for his education...and that's this whole argument. Yes, guys leave early to help their families and to make some money, that is also his choice. He is responsible for choosing to either finish his education or else declare.

I have no problem with guys declaring and finishing up their degrees later if they want. I don't think it's up to anyone to mandate that a player gets his degree. That is his choice on how he wants to approach the situation.

Ha your the one that said a 15 year old should be able to choose I was just going overboard the other way.  I'll say I have the high ground as to what's "best".  I would bet very few parents want their 15 year old son in the NFL.

I never said anything about a 15 year old choosing anything. Plus, I don't think many 15 year olds would legitimately be playing in the NFL.

[Cinco de Hogo]

You're definitely right. I do agree with you on everything you said except for your last statement. The individual player has a responsibility for his education...and that's this whole argument. Yes, guys leave early to help their families and to make some money, that is also his choice. He is responsible for choosing to either finish his education or else declare.

I have no problem with guys declaring and finishing up their degrees later if they want. I don't think it's up to anyone to mandate that a player gets his degree. That is his choice on how he wants to approach the situation.

I never said anything about a 15 year old choosing anything. Plus, I don't think many 15 year olds would legitimately be playing in the NFL.

Sorry I took it for granted that you were the one I was replying to since you quoted my post...which since you aren't I don't know what you post means in connection to mine.  All I was saying is that I believe the player need a degree more than they need the opportunity to go pro at 15.  Do you disagree with that in connection with the post I want repling to?

[RME]

Sorry I took it for granted that you were the one I was replying to since you quoted my post...which since you aren't I don't know what you post means in connection to mine.  All I was saying is that I believe the player need a degree more than they need the opportunity to go pro at 15.  Do you disagree with that in connection with the post I want repling to?

Since I don't think the possibility of a 15-year old ever "going pro" in the NFL is very high outside of the academy-type structure that I described earlier, I think the argument between "needing a degree vs. going pro at 15" is pretty irrelevant.

But to entertain your hypothetical, if a kid and his parents want him to go pro and play in the NFL at the age of 15 rather than get a degree, I think that's completely up to them and they should have the choice of which path they want to pursue.

[Karma]

I think the nfl should require a college degree.  Then maybe these marginal guys would focus on getting thier education.

And how does that help the NFL?

[Poker_hog]

And how does that help the NFL?

Positive press.  How's does having female refs help them?  Or lowing the incident of traumatic brain injury?  The NFL has an image problem on some fronts.  This would be another way to show they care about more than just $$$

[Pig in the Pokey]

nope. They just shouldn't declare for the draft when they get a mid round grade b/c those are usually lies the NFL tells middling guys to up the #s. Henry made a smart choice, the other Juniors were gambling bigtime. AC got lucky, DK didn't. They BOTH rolled the dice on a very risky decision.

[Cinco de Hogo]

Since I don't think the possibility of a 15-year old ever "going pro" in the NFL is very high outside of the academy-type structure that I described earlier, I think the argument between "needing a degree vs. going pro at 15" is pretty irrelevant.

But to entertain your hypothetical, if a kid and his parents want him to go pro and play in the NFL at the age of 15 rather than get a degree, I think that's completely up to them and they should have the choice of which path they want to pursue.

So what do they do if the "company" doesn't hire without a degree?  Are you saying the company doesn't have the right to establish standards?

It's really a mute point other than you wanting them to have the opportunity while I had rather the "company" set higher standards.

[RME]

So what do they do if the "company" doesn't hire without a degree?  Are you saying the company doesn't have the right to establish standards?

It's really a mute point other than you wanting them to have the opportunity while I had rather the "company" set higher standards.

What company? The NFL? The NFL doesn't require a degree.
Another run-of-the-mill company? He goes to college and gets a degree. Pretty simple fix.


This is why I don't like dealing with hypothetical situations. Any and every variable and possibility can be added to manipulate it and it just gets to the point where it doesn't even make sense. We've progressed to where we're talking about 15 year old kids possibly entering the NFL...an NFL that can require degrees if they so choose.

This is just silly.

[Cinco de Hogo]

What company? The NFL? The NFL doesn't require a degree.
Another run-of-the-mill company? He goes to college and gets a degree. Pretty simple fix.


This is why I don't like dealing with hypothetical situations. Any and every variable and possibility can be added to manipulate it and it just gets to the point where it doesn't even make sense. We've progressed to where we're talking about 15 year old kids possibly entering the NFL...an NFL that can require degrees if they so choose.

This is just silly.

Exactly and that was kinda my point when I responded to to post I did before you responsed to mine so let's just end it here.

[bphi11ips]

What you're describing is almost identical to European and Latin American soccer youth academies. What would happen to college sports if NFL teams were able to open youth academies? Players are chosen at young ages and then groomed to play that sport.

For example: Dallas Cowboys have a U15 team, a U18 team, etc. that will play the Green Bay Packers U15 and U18 teams, until the main club decides that player is ready for the League.

Would certainly change the game as we know it, and not for the better if you prefer college to pro football, like many of us do.  Don't think it would be good for the players, either.  It's notions of what's best for the kids that underlie current market restrictions, but those restrictions also benefit the NFL and college football.   

[hoghappy]

A player would have a hard time staying eligible if they try to come back. They would lose the spring semester because of tryouts and team workouts and the like. If they weren't ahead of schedule on their degree they would probably have to redshirt if its available and even if it is would set them back another year.

[LZH]

Would your woman still throw her feet in the air for you if you spent a lot of time and money making a run at prettier gal and struck out?

No agent = come back to school. Of all the things screwed up with NCAA football, this ain't one of em.