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Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?

Started by austin.hogfan, November 06, 2017, 04:54:44 pm

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austin.hogfan

I say no.  And it's Long's problem to know the answer to who he can actually get.  What say you and why?

phadedhawg

Not in every situation but in this one....certainly. 

If Bert runs out of that tunnel next year, Long will be ran out of town.  So in this case, anyone will be better than what we have. 

 

Arthur pigby sellers.

Isn't his record in the SEC 11-29?   Those are historically low winning percentages for an Arkansas coach.  It's almost impossible to do worse.

atom hog

Give Bert and this staff a year six, and you'll wish to have this year's performance.

31to6

Quote from: austin.hogfan on November 06, 2017, 04:54:44 pm
I say no.  And it's Long's problem to know the answer to who he can actually get.  What say you and why?
Yes. Same as any business.

Losing and complacency are contagious.

You have to burn them out.

phadedhawg

There's no way an SEC team almost loses to Coastal Carolina unless the team is ready to lay down.  There's no coming back from that for a coach.

navyhog24

Why are some of you so scared to let Butters go? It's like you all have no balls whatsoever. Any employee at any other business would have gotten fired a lot sooner for not performing at their level of their pay, but we have Captain Integrity as our Athletic Director. So, Bert gets to keep his job longer than he should.

Inhogswetrust

Quote from: austin.hogfan on November 06, 2017, 04:54:44 pm
I say no.  And it's Long's problem to know the answer to who he can actually get.  What say you and why?

Some times I've had to fire people not knowing IF any replacement would be an upgrade. You ALWAYS take a chance when firing and not having a replacement ready. Even if you do have a replacement ready you STILL don't know for certain they will work out either. Half the time you never know who you can ACTUALLY get unless you are planning to promote from within or already have hired someone.
If I'm going to cheer players and coaches in victory, I damn sure ought to be man enough to stand with them in defeat.

"Why some people are so drawn to the irrational is something that has always puzzled me" - James Randi

HawgWild

Releasing a coach after 5 years with a losing record says you don't accept mediocrity. Keeping one around says you do.

RME

They just brought this up on Finebaum and they made some good points.

I'm ready for Bret to go as anyone else but depending on what other jobs open up and what coaches are left, we could be forced to settle for same or even worse for several more years.

The Hawg Marshal

Quote from: RyanMallettsEgo on November 06, 2017, 05:28:44 pm
They just brought this up on Finebaum and they made some good points.

I'm ready for Bret to go as anyone else but depending on what other jobs open up and what coaches are left, we could be forced to settle for same or even worse for several more years.
Just because talking heads say that, doesn't make it so. We can and will do better.

31to6

Quote from: RyanMallettsEgo on November 06, 2017, 05:28:44 pm
They just brought this up on Finebaum and they made some good points.

I'm ready for Bret to go as anyone else but depending on what other jobs open up and what coaches are left, we could be forced to settle for same or even worse for several more years.
I think that is a red herring.

For people who say "there is no guarantee" here is the one thing that can be guaranteed: Next year the pool of candidates might be better or worse, but what we can *guarantee* is that we will have had to live with a bad coach and his bad staff for another season.

farmhawg

Just when you thought the question couldn't be asked in a new post.....geez people read a little more.
From theflyinghog

Jeff Long is sitting around drinking some fruity girl drink and reading this and realizing he was the wrong man for the job. We're crazy. We love us some damn hog football. There may be a bunch of suits sitting behind glass on gameday but dammit you better not cross us airplane-tracking, fence-jumping, hangar-breakin-entering night-vision purchasin sumbitches! We're Miracle on Markham and 4th and 25, 7 overtime-winning tear down the goalposts and drag em down Dickson because you ain't goin to the BCS, fat phil!! BRING ME A COACH WITH A PAIR AND SACRIFICE A VIRGIN CUZ ITS TIME TO FUSCING WIN!!!!

 

wachhog

I say yes. To pay a man over $4 million a year to not only accomplish nothing but to actually do your program harm is insulting to fans, most of whom won't earn as much as Arkansas has paid him in a lifetime. It is a matter of being played. Arkansas has been played. And as the shrub said, "Fool me once..."

ballz2thewall

the odds are very short on finding an upgrade with any decent effort.

the odds are even shorter that cbb has lost the team and fanbase. the fanbase will respond to what's on the field but the team is a different animal.

and it's a visual thing as well as numbers. he just doesn't know what he's doing. you can see it in him on the sidelines and interpolate, given his delegation to assistants.

The rest of the frog.

RME

Quote from: The Hawg Marshal on November 06, 2017, 05:30:45 pm
Just because talking heads say that, doesn't make it so. We can and will do better.

And just because you say this on a message board doesn't make it so.

Quote from: 31to6 on November 06, 2017, 05:31:01 pm
I think that is a red herring.

For people who say "there is no guarantee" here is the one thing that can be guaranteed: Next year the pool of candidates might be better or worse, but what we can *guarantee* is that we will have had to live with a bad coach and his bad staff for another season.

It could definitely be better or worse, I agree. That's the crapshoot of it all. As I said I'm ready for him to go, but depending on the dominoes, it could be interesting.

phadedhawg

We might not a better coach but I promise we can find a cheaper coach, one that can win 6 games without breaking the bank. 

If nothing else, fire him as a future cost saving measure.

wachhog

Quote from: The Hawg Marshal on November 06, 2017, 05:30:45 pm
Just because talking heads say that, doesn't make it so. We can and will do better.
And if we can't, we at least  will be making someone else rich. No doubt a three-time Rose Bowl coach's his lack of success has made it much more difficult for us to hire a quality coach and recruit quality players no mater who the coach is. Coming off Petrino's success, it seems it would have been much easier.  Alas...


ballz2thewall

Quote from: phadedhawg on November 06, 2017, 05:39:06 pm
We might not a better coach but I promise we can find a cheaper coach, one that can win 6 games without breaking the bank. 

If nothing else, fire him as a future cost saving measure.

and if the next one underperforms, odds are he'll have some sort of interaction with the team on the sidelines. at least butch jones is passionate during gametime.
The rest of the frog.

wachhog

Quote from: phadedhawg on November 06, 2017, 05:01:05 pm
Not in every situation but in this one....certainly. 

If Bert runs out of that tunnel next year, Long will be ran out of town.  So in this case, anyone will be better than what we have. 
Running Ling out of town might be the one reason to keep him.

ipigsooie

The thing that people arent looking at with all of the possible openings is all of the possible available coaches. Sometimes guys just dont work out. If, for some reason, we werent able to hire a top choice like Norvell or Campbell,  etc, there will be so many guys out there that would be a better hire than sticking with CBB.  Although not my top choices,  youd have to consider sumlin (excellent recruiter in texas), gus (like him or hate him he isnt a bad coach), along with all of the deserving coordinators and up and coming coaches out there. As long as we start the process sooner than later, its not like we are going to get stuck in limbo with nobody to take the job (or unless we completely bungle the situation ala lsu last year).

Hog-Corleone

This is my word, and as such is beyond contestation.

The Hawg Marshal

Quote from: RyanMallettsEgo on November 06, 2017, 05:36:35 pm
And just because you say this on a message board doesn't make it so.

It could definitely be better or worse, I agree. That's the crapshoot of it all. As I said I'm ready for him to go, but depending on the dominoes, it could be interesting.
Maybe not but I like the odds.

Hogwild

Quote from: RyanMallettsEgo on November 06, 2017, 05:28:44 pm
They just brought this up on Finebaum and they made some good points.

I'm ready for Bret to go as anyone else but depending on what other jobs open up and what coaches are left, we could be forced to settle for same or even worse for several more years.

Is it at all likely we could be worse off?  Year 5, and only 11 conference wins.  Our recruiting class is ranked in the 60s, arguably we aren't even the best team in the state. How much worse could it get.

 

grassroothog

Quote from: austin.hogfan on November 06, 2017, 04:54:44 pm
I say no.  And it's Long's problem to know the answer to who he can actually get.  What say you and why?
Would Long not seek out expert advice on choosing a new coach? With good consultation I dont see how we could not improve.

urkillnmesmalls

We need a change.  However, I don't know how you can make the argument that he's completely lost the team when everything that seemingly could go wrong in that game did, and yet the kids did everything they could to win the game at the end.  They had every reason to mail it in several times.  Ill prepared...obviously.  But downtrodden and resigned...I don't see that.   

I just don't think they are coached very well, and whatever we're doing for player development is failing...miserably.  There's no other way to explain what's going on in year 5 when we don't have an upper classmen laden team. 

I thought we were going to lose, and I didn't think CBB would survive the weekend.  I thought Enos would likely be promoted as interim, and then the search would start.  I'm not sure if it's better to have CBB coach out the season and then see who all is available and interested, or if it's better to make it known now that we have an opening so coaches might position for the UA job, and we get a little better pick by getting the jump on a few teams by coaches showing interest. 

Anyone besides me have this mental image of Jeff Long sitting at his desk with his feet up...reading letters right about now?   ;D
I've never wanted a Hog coach to be successful more than I do for Pittman.  He's one of the good guys.

rude1

Firing are done based on individual job performance, you don't keep an employee who is doing a bad job around because you don't know who you can replace him with. He is doing a bad job and doesn't show that he is capable of doing a good job, you move him out for the long term good of the company.

sickboy

Quote from: rude1 on November 06, 2017, 06:07:31 pm
Firing are done based on individual job performance, you don't keep an employee who is doing a bad job around because you don't know who you can replace him with. He is doing a bad job and doesn't show that he is capable of doing a good job, you move him out for the long term good of the company.

College football isn't the corporate ladder structure. If you're running a banana stand, sure. But college football has seasonal benchmarks that make timing the firing/hiring process more complicated than just getting rid of a failing coach and hiring a new one.

East TN HAWG

I know  few years back, Aubbie courted BP before they had an vacancy.  That blew up in their face.  You almost have to fire and then hire.  There is risk, but when your behind to Costal in the 4th it is worth the risk.

HiggiePiggy

Quote from: austin.hogfan on November 06, 2017, 04:54:44 pm
I say no.  And it's Long's problem to know the answer to who he can actually get.  What say you and why?

When a coach is pretty much costing your program money. Then yes you bring in someone new even if you aren't sure if they are an upgrade.  You get fans thinking that you are also fed up with the way the program is and are working on getting it changed.

Continuing to keep a person when they are bringing the program down each year will just kill a program and make it even longer for fans to come back. 

Show that you care about the performance on the field and the fans will be back and on your side. 
If a man speaks and no woman is around to hear him, is he still wrong?

The Hawg Marshal

Quote from: East TN HAWG on November 06, 2017, 06:33:47 pm
I know  few years back, Aubbie courted BP before they had an vacancy.  That blew up in their face.  You almost have to fire and then hire.  There is risk, but when your behind to Costal in the 4th it is worth the risk.
That blew up in their face because they met directly with Bobby. Now it's all done through intermediaries to avoid such blow ups.

EastexHawg

Quote from: The Hawg Marshal on November 06, 2017, 05:30:45 pm
Just because talking heads say that, doesn't make it so. We can and will do better.

Right.  Alabama and Auburn fans would burn down the campus if the administration decided to keep a coach who is 11-26 and almost loses to Coastal Carolina, but since we are poor little Arkiesaw we should be okay with that as long as we occasionally get to go to a Weed Whacker Bowl.

TrueBlue

Uhhhh. We are last this year in our division and we have been last three of the five years Bert has been here.

How do we not do better?

East Clintwood

Yes, you absolutely must fire him as soon as possible.  He is doing damage to the program that will take a long time to overcome.  Allowing him to continue to do that is just unconscionable.

And you're never sure that you're upgrading when changing coaches.  There's always a risk that the new guy won't work out either.

But you have to  try.  You can't just continue on with the crapshow that we have now.
Any dog can be a seeing eye dog if you don't care where you're going.

          Like  blows - Bring back Karma

Hogwild

Quote from: sickboy on November 06, 2017, 06:11:40 pm
College football isn't the corporate ladder structure. If you're running a banana stand, sure. But college football has seasonal benchmarks that make timing the firing/hiring process more complicated than just getting rid of a failing coach and hiring a new one.


swineology

Quote from: Inhogswetrust on November 06, 2017, 05:12:16 pm
Some times I've had to fire people not knowing IF any replacement would be an upgrade. You ALWAYS take a chance when firing and not having a replacement ready. Even if you do have a replacement ready you STILL don't know for certain they will work out either. Half the time you never know who you can ACTUALLY get unless you are planning to promote from within or already have hired someone.





I've fired employees also, none that made 4 mill.

razorbackred1

Quote from: austin.hogfan on November 06, 2017, 04:54:44 pm
I say no.  And it's Long's problem to know the answer to who he can actually get.  What say you and why?

It's no different than a regular job, you set goals, and standards for you and your program, if you meets or surpass those you earn another year if you don't it's time to move on! How embarrassed would you be if you had to stand before your peers, players, and fans and shout .... in year 5 this is MY program, I built it, I would be mortified! You never know if the next hire is going to be better, and even though I thought Bert was a good hire, it's evident he was not, and unless he pulls a rabbit out of the hat 2018 will be worse than this year.

austin.hogfan

Thanks for the civil responses.  The follow on is it's Jeff's job to attract better talent as a coach.  So if he has done that then he keeps his job, and if he hasn't been able to do so, then he is the one that has to worry...

Razoryak

The problem with this statement is you NEVER know if you can upgrade until you give it a shot ... Sabon, Swinney, Meyer were nobodies until they were somebody. Hire a young gun and pray he's not another Butch Jones, that is our best and only shot at bringing excitement back to the program.
Woo Pig

MountieDawg

Quote from: austin.hogfan on November 06, 2017, 04:54:44 pm
I say no.  And it's Long's problem to know the answer to who he can actually get.  What say you and why?

Would you keep milk that has been spoiled for 3 weeks if you have not had time to go to the grocery store???
SEC!

ErieHog

Quote from: Arthur pigby sellers. on November 06, 2017, 05:03:19 pm
Isn't his record in the SEC 11-29?   Those are historically low winning percentages for an Arkansas coach.  It's almost impossible to do worse.


How many people said this year's defense couldn't possibly be worse than last year's, and that the switch to the 3-4 would be seamless?

Yes, it can get *much* worse.  But it also can get much better.    A coaching change is placing your bet, and spinning that wheel.
No cause, ever, in the history of all mankind, has produced more cold-blooded tyrants, more slaughtered innocents, and more orphans than socialism with power. It surpassed, exponentially, all other systems of production in turning out the dead. The bodies are all around us. And here is the problem: No one talks about them. No one honors them. No one does penance for them. No one has committed suicide for having been an apologist for those who did this to them. No one pays for them. No one is hunted down to account for them. It is exactly what Solzhenitsyn foresaw in The Gulag Archipelago: "No, no one would have to answer. No one would be looked into." Until that happens, there is no "after socialism."

Broadway Rob

Quote from: RyanMallettsEgo on November 06, 2017, 05:28:44 pm
They just brought this up on Finebaum and they made some good points.

I'm ready for Bret to go as anyone else but depending on what other jobs open up and what coaches are left, we could be forced to settle for same or even worse for several more years.

Uhhh, no.  There is no shortages of good coaches at smaller schools looking to step up.  There's no shortages of coordinators who have paid their dues and may be ready for the jump. 

I don't care if I have ever even heard the guys name, any up and coming coach would be better.  It would give the fanbase something to rally around, where right now, we have nothing. 
Broadway Rob: December 05, 2017, 07:57:52 pm

122 ranked defense after 3 years.  We have no [CENSORED] shot whatsoever, and to say we do is delusional man.  If he was anything more than a great OC, his defense would have improved.  He's no head coach.

hawgon

Worst comes to worst, we can go down to Greenland high school and hire whoever they've got coaching this year.  It won't be a homerun, but it will be an upgrade.

Hogsolo

No that would be reckless.   At this point however it's hard to support the on field product.   Regardless of how we finish this season we were not prepared to match the competition for the first half of the season. 

There is a reason his teams started collapsing late last season.   We don't go that bad that fast without something in the program leading to these performances.   

Due to the lack of knowledge behind the Pig Iron Curtain we simply don't know if Oz has figured out the wizard is just a special effects man or whatever other reason is the cause. 


007 License To Squeal

Can the replacement fare worse than Bellyma?  Not likely......Fire him after the Missouri game....
******Proud Member of Hogville.net since May 22, 2003, 08:17:38 PM*******

Locutus_of_Boar

Quote from: austin.hogfan on November 06, 2017, 04:54:44 pm
I say no.  And it's Long's problem to know the answer to who he can actually get.  What say you and why?

Arkansas has been in the football business for one hundred and twenty four years.

In all that time Arkansas has managed to hire a new "permanent" coach on average every 4.3 years. 

It's been five years since the last time Arkansas hired a coach so the program is exactly on schedule.

In all program history only three coaches lasted more than seven years and two of the three are generally considered failures.

All those AD's:  Futrall, Barnhill, Broyles, and Long in each case knew who was available but often did not know for sure who they had got till fouryears later.

We have seen all the current coach has got.

If Jeff Long put all the names of available D-1 coaches with a winning record into a hat and drew out a random name the odds will be overwhelming that random coach will outperform the one who is here now.

If he doesn't Arkansas will just hire the random pick's replacement a year or two early.

The way it works out Arkansas should just offer a fixed five year deal no cut deal with no modifications or extensions except for making another five year extension at the end of the first five years.  Any coach who makes it to ten years with the fan base still happy should be given a lifetime contract.  Do this and there would be little change in the duration of coaching tenures but the coaching debates would be cut way down.

Anyway this is all after the fact.   The decision for 2018 has already been made.

woodrow hog call

You absolutely MUST fire him, no more of a choice than firing BP.

You have certain criteria and standards that are not being met. BP failed a different set of standards, but the answer is the same for both, you cannot continue to represent this program. Reason; failure to meet expectations.
"I hate rude behavior in a man, I won't tolerate it"

hoglady

Quote from: austin.hogfan on November 06, 2017, 04:54:44 pm
I say no.  And it’s Long’s problem to know the answer to who he can actually get.  What say you and why?

Bielema is the worst coach in the SEC - and that's a fact proven by his record.
How do you get worse than that???
When you've reached rock bottom - you can only go up.
Inside every "older" person is a younger person wondering what the hell happened?

"Compassion for animals is intimately associated with goodness of character, and it may be confidently asserted that he who is cruel to animals cannot be a good man."
― Arthur Schopenhauer, The Basis of Morality

HardCore

We can easily fire an Athletic Director without knowing we can actually upgrade
Beware the lollipop of mediocrity; lick it once and you'll suck forever....Brian Wilson (Beach Boys)

sickboy

Quote from: woodrow hog call on November 06, 2017, 08:27:27 pm
You absolutely MUST fire him, no more of a choice than firing BP.

You have certain criteria and standards that are not being met. BP failed a different set of standards, but the answer is the same for both, you cannot continue to represent this program. Reason; failure to meet expectations.

Not analogous when you consider that firing someone with cause is a lot different than firing someone over performance issues.