Michigan OL walks Away

[Karma]

NFL doctor?  Dr. Maroon is employed by the NFL as part of its medical team, but Dr. McCarthy has no ties to the league as far as we know.

And how about the consensus statement released by doctors who participated in the 4th International Conference on Concussion in Sports?

http://journals.lww.com/cjsportsmed/Fulltext/2013/03000/Consensus_Statement_on_Concussion_in_Sport_the_4th.1.aspx

Are they all shills for the NFL?

He's employed by the nfl but has no ties?

Is it your position that playing football doesn't lead to increased incidents of concussions?

[hogsanity]

Everything you said is true.
All are great points.
Yet somehow you either missed on everything I was saying or I didn't communicate very well.

Helmets, concussions.  I know.  Merely an example on behalf.
Only place for memories.  Check.  Imposing values though is not warranted or wanted.

When the fearmongers and safety queens can provide me with a guaranteed check  that by following their way of life will get me _______________ as a wife, darling kids, a great job, and a long, healthy life, I'll jump on board.   First off though, you'll have to grab a defibrillator to start my heart back up from shock of that EVER being possible.  The people I know (men especially) have miserable existences living the ''safety dance'' lifestyle.
Until then, I'll make as an informed opinion (totally agree with ACCURATE information being publicized) as I can and live MY life.

No, I got your points. Mine were just hitting on some of the things in the thread overall, and pointing out that for some they would play even knowing the risks, but others would possibly not play if they knew then what they know now.

I always love the flags and skirts type comments, no one is saying anything close to that. As for the guys walking away now, it is big news when a pro, especially one in the early part of his career, walks away citing the dangers.

But I get your points, you would rather have all you got from the game, even at the risk of what the game could have taken from you. It's a valid position to take, and one shared by many I am sure. 

[Hogsolo]

It's all cool now and getting the attention for being brave for making a stand is all great.

But when these guys really start to have their bodies break down with age and are unable to play anymore, their attitudes will most likely change. 

I had surgeries in my early 30's that have debilitated me physically.   

I'd give everything I have to play one more basketball, soft ball, football, or baseball pickup game, not to mention organized activities.    At 46 I can't even swing a golf club due to the torque it would place on my abdomen.   I'll be lucky to see the Hogs in another big bowl in my life time due to my injuries.

There is nothing comparable to achieving athletically and turning your back on it will be a regret down the line.   Life is hard and the wins and thrills of athletics just don't exist off the field.

I think living 50 glorious years with athletics is greater than just living.

Personally, I'd need more hard proof science than the current public opinion science that moves policy now days.   

Before you believe scientists check the agenda first.   More and more scientists are fraudulent in reporting their results to keep money and opinion flowing.

[sickboy]

It's all cool now and getting the attention for being brave for making a stand is all great.

But when these guys really start to have their bodies break down with age and are unable to play anymore, their attitudes will most likely change. 

I had surgeries in my early 30's that have debilitated me physically.   

I'd give everything I have to play one more basketball, soft ball, football, or baseball pickup game, not to mention organized activities.    At 46 I can't even swing a golf club due to the torque it would place on my abdomen.   I'll be lucky to see the Hogs in another big bowl in my life time due to my injuries.

There is nothing comparable to achieving athletically and turning your back on it will be a regret down the line.   Life is hard and the wins and thrills of athletics just don't exist off the field.

I think living 50 glorious years with athletics is greater than just living.

Personally, I'd need more hard proof science than the current public opinion science that moves policy now days.   

Before you believe scientists check the agenda first.   More and more scientists are fraudulent in reporting their results to keep money and opinion flowing.

I'm curious... do you have children?

[Hogsolo]

I'm curious... do you have children?

Yes, grown ones.   They are great when they are young, talk to me later in life.

[sickboy]

NFL doctor?  Dr. Maroon is employed by the NFL as part of its medical team, but Dr. McCarthy has no ties to the league as far as we know.

And how about the consensus statement released by doctors who participated in the 4th International Conference on Concussion in Sports?

http://journals.lww.com/cjsportsmed/Fulltext/2013/03000/Consensus_Statement_on_Concussion_in_Sport_the_4th.1.aspx

Are they all shills for the NFL?

The guy wearing a Steelers hat and a Steelers jacket, standing on the sidelines of a Steelers game doesn't have ties to the NFL... other than being paid by the NFL. Right.

At any rate, CTE is only one sliver of the discussion. Head trauma is much broader than CTE.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

I apologize for the length of this, but I think you will find it worth the read. At least I hope so. It is a true story.

I think  that most who play football in high school and college play for the love of the game. It is a great game. As an extreme example of how something you love can go terribly wrong for you, I will use a former teammate of mine from high school. This young man played DT for us and was one of the top rated players in the state and had already been offered and had agreed to attend the University of Oklahoma.

In a particularly high profile game against Booker T. Washington High School in Skelly Stadium in Tulsa, something happened that changed the rest of his life.

On one particular play the BTW RB managed to get around the left end and head up the sideline. My buddy was chasing him up that sideline when one of the kids from BTW came in at an angle and planted his helmet in my buddy's left knee just as he had planted that foot. The cleats stuck in the grass as his knee inverted in the most extreme way that I have ever witnessed (it was a piece of film you didn't want to watch again).

He sustained a major knee injury and was done for his Senior season. He went through multiple knee surgeries to repair his knee but they could never fully restore circulation to the lower part of the leg. Why this was I have no idea but that was the situation. His final surgery was performed by the same person who operated on Joe Namath's knees and the result was still not good. Gangrene began to set in and eventually, they had to remove his leg just below the knee. In the course of all this he acquired a staff infection in one of his eyes and lost one of his eyes as well.

He went on to be a teacher and become a principal and he had a positive effect on the lives of many young kids over the years. He learned to water ski on one leg better than most can ski on two legs. And he went on to gain his commercial pilot's license and instructor's license and has piloted charters and taught flying for years now.

That one play in 1970 changed his life forever. Who knows what might have happened had he not been injured? But what we do know is that despite a traumatic, life changing injury playing the game that he loved with his whole heart, he redirected his life from one of playing college football, to one dedicated to educating and motivating young people.

Does he wish that, if he could go back and change things, that he wouldn't have been in the exact wrong place at the exact wrong time on that night in 1970? I'm sure he does, but those are the risks associated with playing the game and he accepted those risks. Sometimes bad things are going to happen to good people and sometimes those events take you down a different and sometimes better, course in life.

I'm proud of my friend, Gary. He could have laid down and quit. Life gave him lemons and he made lemonade.

[hoghiker]

I apologize for the length of this, but I think you will find it worth the read. At least I hope so. It is a true story.

I think  that most who play football in high school and college play for the love of the game. It is a great game. As an extreme example of how something you love can go terribly wrong for you, I will use a former teammate of mine from high school. This young man played DT for us and was one of the top rated players in the state and had already been offered and had agreed to attend the University of Oklahoma.

In a particularly high profile game against Booker T. Washington High School in Skelly Stadium in Tulsa, something happened that changed the rest of his life.

On one particular play the BTW RB managed to get around the left end and head up the sideline. My buddy was chasing him up that sideline when one of the kids from BTW came in at an angle and planted his helmet in my buddy’s left knee just as he had planted that foot. The cleats stuck in the grass as his knee inverted in the most extreme way that I have ever witnessed (it was a piece of film you didn’t want to watch again).

He sustained a major knee injury and was done for his Senior season. He went through multiple knee surgeries to repair his knee but they could never fully restore circulation to the lower part of the leg. Why this was I have no idea but that was the situation. His final surgery was performed by the same person who operated on Joe Namath’s knees and the result was still not good. Gangrene began to set in and eventually, they had to remove his leg just below the knee. In the course of all this he acquired a staff infection in one of his eyes and lost one of his eyes as well.

He went on to be a teacher and become a principal and he had a positive effect on the lives of many young kids over the years. He learned to water ski on one leg better than most can ski on two legs. And he went on to gain his commercial pilot’s license and instructor’s license and has piloted charters and taught flying for years now.

That one play in 1970 changed his life forever. Who knows what might have happened had he not been injured? But what we do know is that despite a traumatic, life changing injury playing the game that he loved with his whole heart, he redirected his life from one of playing college football, to one dedicated to educating and motivating young people.

Does he wish that, if he could go back and change things, that he wouldn’t have been in the exact wrong place at the exact wrong time on that night in 1970? I’m sure he does, but those are the risks associated with playing the game and he accepted those risks. Sometimes bad things are going to happen to good people and sometimes those events take you down a different and sometimes better, course in life.

I'm proud of my friend, Gary. He could have laid down and quit. Life gave him lemons and he made lemonade.

You can't keep some people down.

[nwahogfan1]

Interesting to see how prevalent this becomes.

http://m.espn.go.com/ncf/story?storyId=12555518&i=TWT&w=1ezig

I think the kid just got tired of Football and the concussion issue was his excuse.  Lets face if Football is a contact sport and concussions are a possibility but OC is probable one of the safest positions to shelter yourself from getting one.  Now if he played DB, LB or RB then he would have a much bigger argument for stepping down. 

[hogsanity]

I think the kid just got tired of Football and the concussion issue was his excuse.  Lets face if Football is a contact sport and concussions are a possibility but OC is probable one of the safest positions to shelter yourself from getting one.  Now if he played DB, LB or RB then he would have a much bigger argument for stepping down. 

That is simply not true. OL is one of the biggest places for getting repeated small head injuries that are ow being found to cause the worst problems. OL are butting heads every play with DL and LBS. Mike Webster, former all world center for the Steelers is the best known example. Read up on him, then come back and tell us again how safe OC is as far as head injuries go.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

That is simply not true. OL is one of the biggest places for getting repeated small head injuries that are ow being found to cause the worst problems. OL are butting heads every play with DL and LBS. Mike Webster, former all world center for the Steelers is the best known example. Read up on him, then come back and tell us again how safe OC is as far as head injuries go.

As an old O-Lineman, I can vouch for this and I agree with you. With regard to this one particular kid from Michigan though, the one thing that keeps coming back to me is how he talked about (or words to the effect) how the competitive flame had to keep burning brightly to suit up and keep being successful day in and day out, and it just wasn't there for him any longer. I'm sure he had some enhanced concerns about the potential for head injuries and their effects later on after the information that has been published, but it did also sound like he was just "burned out" and was tired of the whole competitive process. When your "want to" is gone, it is better for you (and your teammates) that you go ahead and hang it up.

[SooiecidetillNuttgone]

As an old O-Lineman, I can vouch for this and I agree with you. With regard to this one particular kid from Michigan though, the one thing that keeps coming back to me is how he talked about (or words to the effect) how the competitive flame had to keep burning brightly to suit up and keep being successful day in and day out, and it just wasn't there for him any longer. I'm sure he had some enhanced concerns about the potential for head injuries and their effects later on after the information that has been published, but it did also sound like he was just "burned out" and was tired of the whole competitive process. When your "want to" is gone, it is better for you (and your teammates) that you go ahead and hang it up.

This.
It's hard to make yourself do something that is hard and takes longer than a week or so that you simply don't want to do.

Back up and redirect.

[hogsanity]

As an old O-Lineman, I can vouch for this and I agree with you. With regard to this one particular kid from Michigan though, the one thing that keeps coming back to me is how he talked about (or words to the effect) how the competitive flame had to keep burning brightly to suit up and keep being successful day in and day out, and it just wasn't there for him any longer. I'm sure he had some enhanced concerns about the potential for head injuries and their effects later on after the information that has been published, but it did also sound like he was just "burned out" and was tired of the whole competitive process. When your "want to" is gone, it is better for you (and your teammates) that you go ahead and hang it up.

In his case it may be that, or perhaps the worry about head injuries, or injury in general helped put out the competitive fire. It just irks me a little that people are acting like he is a quitter (not saying you are doing so), and using head injury concerns as a cop out.  A lot of that goes back to the mentality that people, especially in our region, view football as some litmus test to being tough. 

[EastexHawg]

He's employed by the nfl but has no ties?

Is it your position that playing football doesn't lead to increased incidents of concussions?

Did you read the consensus statement issued by the doctors who took part in the conference?  It's included in the link I posted.

Since you are asking questions, are you now to the point that you ignore the opinion issued by doctor after doctor after doctor who specializes in the field of head trauma/CTE?  If so, why?  Because you've heard people on TV or the internet say the football definitely causes CTE, that football is too dangerous, and that Junior Seau wouldn't have killed himself if he hadn't played MLB for the Chargers?

Why did the German Wings pilot kill himself and 149 other people?  Did James Harrison hit him too hard helmet to helmet?

[k.c.hawg]

Did you read the consensus statement issued by the doctors who took part in the conference?  It's included in the link I posted.

Since you are asking questions, are you now to the point that you ignore the opinion issued by doctor after doctor after doctor who specializes in the field of head trauma/CTE?  If so, why?  Because you've heard people on TV or the internet say the football definitely causes CTE, that football is too dangerous, and that Junior Seau wouldn't have killed himself if he hadn't played MLB for the Chargers?

Why did the German Wings pilot kill himself and 149 other people?  Did James Harrison hit him too hard helmet to helmet?

For every one of those you post I can post 50 with differing opinions. Are people so damn stupid that they think you can crack someone in the head 100 times with a 250 lb. battering ram running 15 mph without an undesirable outcome? I've said 100 x over again, I love this game, I go out Saturday after Saturday, Sunday after Sunday and at times when I'm truthful to myself I cannot deny what I see. I have 40 or more close friends that are former NFL player and there are times it sickens me to be around them. I've sat on computers all my life making a very good living. They played in the league at the highest level of their profession making very good money for the different eras they played in. They take great pride in what they have done, what it has provided for them and I fully understand that. But they see it and I see it every day, the price is very, very real!!! Whether they are in their 40's, their 50's or their 60's the toll this game has taken on them is for the most part disgusting. They don't complain about it but I will. I love football and I often sit and bitch about the constant softening of the game but to not be very concerned about brain injuries is looking the other way.Were you a fan of boxing in the 50's, 60's and 70's? I guess 50% of those people ended up brain dead by happen stance.  I guess it's always better to be 30 years late than concerned and forward thinking.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

In his case it may be that, or perhaps the worry about head injuries, or injury in general helped put out the competitive fire. It just irks me a little that people are acting like he is a quitter (not saying you are doing so), and using head injury concerns as a cop out.  A lot of that goes back to the mentality that people, especially in our region, view football as some litmus test to being tough. 

I wouldn't classify a guy who has achieved the status of being a starter as being a "quitter" just because he either grew weary of the process and no longer had the desire to go through all of that, or decided that he was concerned about injuries he had sustained or might sustain in the future, that might negatively effect his health later in life. No harm, no foul. The guy did everything that was asked of him while he was a part of the program and has been a significant contributor.

And who knows, maybe he carries some genetic trait that makes him more prone to concussions? His brother was a highly recruited lineman at Wisconsin and had to quit football after his Freshman year because of a history of concussions, so this hits pretty close to home for this kid.

But I will say that I think it is probably far easier to hang up the cleats when you play for a storied program that hasn't achieved very much lately. If he were the starting Center at Ohio State would he have made the same decision? Maybe, maybe not. Either way, no one should look down on this kid for his decision.

[hoggusamoungus]

Vandy QB does the same.



http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr-saturday/vanderbilt-qb-patton-robinette-s-career-is-over-153114656.html;_ylt=AwrBT_wblxZVBoUA1V1XNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzc2VhZWxqBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDU01FOTU3XzEEc2VjA3Nj

[Rocky Mountain Living]

Vandy QB does the same.



http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr-saturday/vanderbilt-qb-patton-robinette-s-career-is-over-153114656.html;_ylt=AwrBT_wblxZVBoUA1V1XNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzc2VhZWxqBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDU01FOTU3XzEEc2VjA3Nj

Robinette suffered a concussion in September, and according to his high school coach, it also forced him to miss class time in addition to playing time.

Robinette participated in Vanderbilt's spring game before announcing his decision and was the leading contender to start at quarterback for the Commodores in 2015.

The team tweeted a picture of Robinette's acceptance to medical school earlier in the month.

[SooiecidetillNuttgone]

For every one of those you post I can post 50 with differing opinions. Are people so damn stupid that they think you can crack someone in the head 100 times with a 250 lb. battering ram running 15 mph without an undesirable outcome? I've said 100 x over again, I love this game, I go out Saturday after Saturday, Sunday after Sunday and at times when I'm truthful to myself I cannot deny what I see. I have 40 or more close friends that are former NFL player and there are times it sickens me to be around them. I've sat on computers all my life making a very good living. They played in the league at the highest level of their profession making very good money for the different eras they played in. They take great pride in what they have done, what it has provided for them and I fully understand that. But they see it and I see it every day, the price is very, very real!!! Whether they are in their 40's, their 50's or their 60's the toll this game has taken on them is for the most part disgusting. They don't complain about it but I will. I love football and I often sit and bitch about the constant softening of the game but to not be very concerned about brain injuries is looking the other way.Were you a fan of boxing in the 50's, 60's and 70's? I guess 50% of those people ended up brain dead by happen stance. I guess it's always better to be 30 years late than concerned and forward thinking.

Forward thinking about what?
I haven't read anything on here about forcing players to play hurt, to not continue producing better equipment, etc.

What I AM getting from your post is an insistence to impose YOUR concerns on OTHER people.

Since you posted a pic for East, here's one for you:

[k.c.hawg]

Forward thinking about what?
I haven't read anything on here about forcing players to play hurt, to not continue producing better equipment, etc.

What I AM getting from your post is an insistence to impose YOUR concerns on OTHER people.

Since you posted a pic for East, here's one for you:

Maybe you should read what the rebuttal was to. The rebuttal was to dumb asses in denial that concussions on top of concussions without healing, are causing brain damage. If you are to dense to understand a discussion don't respond.

[SooiecidetillNuttgone]

Maybe you should read what the rebuttal was to. The rebuttal was to dumb asses in denial that concussions on top of concussions without healing, are causing brain damage. If you are to too dense to understand a discussion don't respond.

After re-reading your post, I can see what you're saying.....I guess.  The part about disgusting to you, they won't complain but you will, etc does an extraordinarily good job of throwing people off though. 

[k.c.hawg]

I appreciate you re-reading it. My response to East was probably too emotional trying to hammer home my point and was not well thought out or composed. My apologies to East. My apologies to you for taking offense to your defense of East regarding a less than thought out post on my part. My original thoughts weren't trying to be definitive on the concussion issue, it was more about the sacrifices guys are willing to make to continue playing the game we love, long after most of us have hung the cleats up.

I am friends with quite a few former Chiefs players of varying age. I can say being at some events with them are eye opening at the least. Guys in their 50's that look like they are in their 70's when they walk in. I know several in their 40's that have had knees and hips replaced. None of them have ever told me they regret playing.

We left a party one night where there were probably 40 former players there and maybe 10 of the younger ones appeared to have relatively healthy bodies. I told my wife, wow I've never been with such a large collection of people that had something so strange in common. Mangled hands, cripple, constant pain, shoulders, neck, knees, hips, joint replacements. I asked my wife, "I wonder if I will feel different next Sunday at the stadium watching the Chiefs get it on with the Seahawks?" Well I didn't.

It all comes down to what we are willing to do or are capable of doing to make a living. I've thought back over the years to someone I knew or someone I saw that was broken down because of their work. Tile layers, carpet layers, brick layers, concrete workers all with bad backs, bad joints, guys that work outside having skin cancer removed, guys that rode the trains that were deaf.

Can't blame a young guy for quitting if he's worried about brain damage. Can't blame another guy for overlooking the risk to make millions. Thought it was telling to see two long time teammates interviewed side by side about the concussion issue. Will Shields who has managed his money, has very successful businesses and has always stayed ahead of the curve says he would do it all over again and has no regrets. Neil Smith who lost all of his money in bad business ventures, lost his home and is a working man said if I had to do all over again I would not have played in the NFL. I wondered if he would have had a different response if he still had $10-$15 million in investments.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Players quit football all the time, at every level from Pee Wee to the NFL.  Some just don't love it as much as others.  If you are one of those guys right now, "I am concerned about my long term health" probably sounds better when walking away than "I never really loved playing football all that much anyway."

It is a personal decision and it may not have as much to do with a lack of a "love for the game" as much as realization of what may lay ahead.

I have a former teammate that went to Cleveland as an OT. He was a big, tough, mean SOB that played aggressively and uncharactersitically so for an OT. Think about a Dan Skipper to the "nth" power but at 6-4 instead of 6-10. This cat absolutely mauled DT's, DE's and LB's.

Problem was that over the years of playing his knees had degenerated and he had been the subject of a knee surgery, an ankle surgery and a shoulder surgery in a day and time when surgery isn't what it is today, but was far more traumatic and recovery time was more extended and difficult.

He reported for camp with the Brown's and spent a couple of weeks with them before realizing that the pain and what was needed to overcome the pain to be able to play at that level, and what that might do to him, was just more than what he wanted to sacrifice. He also told me that the thought had crossed his mind that he would like to be able to walk normally when he turned 60. I never knew anyone who loved the game and contact more than he did, but he made a quality decision for his life and walked away.

I can't blame him for making the decision that he did and even in this day and time when players are bigger, faster, stronger, when impacts delivered and received are even greater and more severe than they were then, and even with surgeries being less invasive and recovery time being less, I can't fault anyone who choose to make a quality decision for their life based upon the potential for these things occurring. It sure doesn't mean that they don't love the game.

[RebelliousHog]

I wish there was an answer to concussions. The reality is that better helmets won't really help. Concussions are caused by the brain literally moving in the skull and banging against the bone, as I remember. Better helmets won't stop that.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

I wish there was an answer to concussions. The reality is that better helmets won't really help. Concussions are caused by the brain literally moving in the skull and banging against the bone, as I remember. Better helmets won't stop that.

Better helmets do help. I remember when I was first exposed to McGregor 100MPH helmets. I thought I had gone to heaven. I used to get dinged regularly when I used the old Riddell Suspension System Helmets, who had the added bonus of slipping down when you hit someone hard and cutting the upper bridge of your nose.

The McGregor 100 MPH helmet fit your head like a glove and did not slip, plus, it offered greater padding for the head throughout the helmet. You felt safe in these helmets when leading with the head, which is how old school football was taught.

The problem is, while the McGregor 100 MPH helmets were an innovation at the time, they also came at a time when the use of steroids became more widely utilized which initially started this whole thing of bigger, faster, stronger players that began to produce greater impact between players.

Other manufacturers followed suit with Padded Helmets, Air Helmets, Water Helmets or a combination of the three, that helped mold helmets to the head in an effort to minimize the impact to the head in collisions. Everything would have been just fine had "better performance through chemistry", not taken the lead.

Physical abilities, strength and speed, and the impact created by the exponential increase in these areas, quickly outdistanced research in the development of safer equipment.

[RebelliousHog]

I agree with what you say. Maybe I should have phrased it mentioning the use of performance enhancing drugs and just the fact that players in general are bigger, stronger, and faster.  Because what I said still stands. Just a helmet does not stop the movement of the brain inside the skull. Maybe one of the medical people in HV can elaborate.

[SooiecidetillNuttgone]

I appreciate you re-reading it. My response to East was probably too emotional trying to hammer home my point and was not well thought out or composed. My apologies to East. My apologies to you for taking offense to your defense of East regarding a less than thought out post on my part. My original thoughts weren't trying to be definitive on the concussion issue, it was more about the sacrifices guys are willing to make to continue playing the game we love, long after most of us have hung the cleats up.

+1 to you.
No problem from me. 
Looks like the death of football is on the horizon though, barring a change in our culture.  Yep.  I went there.  It will take a cultural change from the direction we're headed (pardon the pun) for rough and tumble sports that include injuries beyond a knee or twist (on a basis beyond a freak accident of some sort) to survive.

[EastexHawg]

I want to make it plain I am not faulting any player for walking away from football regardless of the reason.  If you come to the realization that you don't want to continue that's a perfectly reasonable conclusion.  What I'm saying is that there might be other considerations besides "he is preserving his brain health" when a player quits...whether he has suffered concussions or not.

For that matter, what football player hasn't had one or more concussions?

[bennyl08]

Everything you said is true.
All are great points.
Yet somehow you either missed on everything I was saying or I didn't communicate very well.

Helmets, concussions.  I know.  Merely an example on behalf.
Only place for memories.  Check.  Imposing values though is not warranted or wanted.

When the fearmongers and safety queens can provide me with a guaranteed check  that by following their way of life will get me _______________ as a wife, darling kids, a great job, and a long, healthy life, I'll jump on board.   First off though, you'll have to grab a defibrillator to start my heart back up from shock of that EVER being possible.  The people I know (men especially) have miserable existences living the ''safety dance'' lifestyle.
Until then, I'll make as an informed opinion (totally agree with ACCURATE information being publicized) as I can and live MY life.

Nobody is trying to tell you how to live your life, is guaranteeing nothing bad will happen to you if you don't play football, or is even trying to ban football. The odds of you suffering brain damage is higher if you play football than if you don't. The odds of you falling to your death is a lot higher if you free climb than if you rope climb. However, people are only recently starting to learn and understand the impact on your brain, whereas the effect of falling 300 feet has been well known. The fear that football will cease to be what it is today stems largely from the fear of there no longer being as strong of a supporting population of people willing to play the game based off the information at hand. That leads to ideas of changing the game to keep it attractive to people who might play it, which of course leads to fear of others that the game won't be worth watching if it changes too much. Of course, the game today is almost unrecognizable from 30 years ago which was unrecognizable from 30 years before that.

[thirrdegreetusker]

I wonder if "better" helmets are the problem, not the solution. Football techniques were different before the modern, hard-shell helmets were developed. All the "old" blocking and tackling techniques were designed to keep the head out of harm's way. But, for the last 50-plus years, blockers and tacklers have been taught to lead with the head.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

I wonder if "better" helmets are the problem, not the solution. Football techniques were different before the modern, hard-shell helmets were developed. All the "old" blocking and tackling techniques were designed to keep the head out of harm's way. But, for the last 50-plus years, blockers and tacklers have been taught to lead with the head.

The problem came when players suddenly became bigger, faster, stronger and the severity of impact between players grew exponentially.

As an example, in 1970 a HS kid who was 6-6, 260 lbs playing DT was a complete monster, a freak compared to most kids playing high school football.

As the years passed, and it didn't take many years beyond that, these bigger versions of kids began to emerge more frequently, becoming more the rule, than the exception.

My theory is that it all initially began with all of the steroids that were injected into beef and chicken (and therefore to be found in eggs) and pork, to create more weight on the hoof at market for those who raised stock for market. Around this time McDonald's, Sandy's and other fast food restaurants became more the norm and kids woofed this stuff down. Even if their parents didn't embrace these establishments they couldn't avoid the effect because these foods were on the shelves in the grocery stores.

Next thing you knew, boys were growing bigger than their genetic pool might dictate and young girls were developing from a physical standpoint, into women at an even earlier age than before.

Then when you add the increased use of PED's among young college athlete's you get the enhanced version of what high school and college athletes used to be from a physical standpoint. Definitely different than what people had seen for decades before. There were always the exceptional athletes from pure genetics, but they used to be the minority, as opposed to what has become today, the standard.

Some will say that is a crazy theory and that is fine, but I have given this a lot of thought and that is just my opinion as to how we got from "there" to "where we are today". And given those bigger, faster, quicker, more developed athlete's of today, it becomes a matter of pure physics as it relates to collisions, and the development of protective equipment has not kept pace with the physical development of athletes. JMO

[sickboy]

The problem came when players suddenly became bigger, faster, stronger and the severity of impact between players grew exponentially.

When discussing the rise in concussion rates... this is it right here.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

When discussing the rise in concussion rates... this is it right here.

There is more to it than that. Not enough research into the development of equipment that helps offset the risk of greater collisions. In my opinion, that is why we see the NCAA and others scrambling to try to legislate contact through the implementation of rules that protect the players who are most susceptible to blind-sided and unprotected contact.

But you can't protect everyone in any given situation, it just can't be done. So players, their families, their coaches and their schools just need to understand that it is impossible to completely protect a player and if you aren't willing to bear the risks, don't play the game. Go out for the Bowling Team, the Curling Team, the Billiard Team if you are not willing to sign on for the risks involved without expecting to hold someone else responsible if the worst should occur.

I am not meaning to sound as if I have no empathy for injured players or the family of injured players, because I do feel empathy and it is a tough and terrible thing when kids go down with injuries. But let's keep in mind that you knew what you were getting yourself into when you signed on. No one forced you to do it. It is a violent game and injuries are going to occur. No one is forced to play the game.

[bennyl08]

There is more to it than that. Not enough research into the development of equipment that helps offset the risk of greater collisions. In my opinion, that is why we see the NCAA and others scrambling to try to legislate contact through the implementation of rules that protect the players who are most susceptible to blind-sided and unprotected contact.

But you can't protect everyone in any given situation, it just can't be done. So players, their families, their coaches and their schools just need to understand that it is impossible to completely protect a player and if you aren't willing to bear the risks, don't play the game. Go out for the Bowling Team, the Curling Team, the Billiard Team if you are not willing to sign on for the risks involved without expecting to hold someone else responsible if the worst should occur.

I am not meaning to sound as if I have no empathy for injured players or the family of injured players, because I do feel empathy and it is a tough and terrible thing when kids go down with injuries. But let's keep in mind that you knew what you were getting yourself into when you signed on. No one forced you to do it. It is a violent game and injuries are going to occur. No one is forced to play the game.

A lot of the players didn't know the risks though. Partly because nobody knew the risks at the time and then later because the NFL withheld some of that information. Of course kids getting into football now do so with parents at least having access to risks, and some players are calling it quits midway through now that the information is coming out.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

A lot of the players didn't know the risks though. Partly because nobody knew the risks at the time and then later because the NFL withheld some of that information. Of course kids getting into football now do so with parents at least having access to risks, and some players are calling it quits midway through now that the information is coming out.

I was speaking "present day", so I agree.

But that said, there isn't anyone who has played that hasn't known that concussions weren't good for you. The rule when I played was that once you had "5" identified incidences of "severe dings" not even full blown concussions, you were done. Now we aren't talking about getting a swat across the helmet and you see stars, we are talking about getting a hit to helmet and not seeing anything, blacked out vision, instability, even for an instant. Not even being completely 'knocked out".

The problem was, it sometimes wasn't noticeable by the coaches in the press box or by the sideline, so a lot of this was due to self-reporting, and very few who wanted to play, reported what they viewed as minor incidences in the normal course of playing ball. Just a part of the game.

There is an awful lot of that denial these days that "oh, we didn't know back then", but players knew and coaches knew and I never saw any coaches, no matter how badly that they wanted to win, that were willing to sacrifice the future health of a player just to win. Maybe I was lucky and had really good coaches with integrity, but I think most coaches felt that way.

Trauma to the head has always been an issue of concern to coaching staffs and that hasn't changed, it is just that the national focus on it via the media has made it seem to have been buried by programs in the past at the expense of winning, and I have never personally witnessed that to be the truth.

I have seen too many young men told that their careers were over with a certain program because they have sustained too many head injuries in a given time. Heartbreaking for the player, but a decision made by a coaching staff in the best future interests of the player.

So you will forgive me if I don't buy a lot of the crap about how information about the negative nature of head injuries has been hidden by a lot of organziations. It is just the latest hot topic for the media to write about.

[bennyl08]

There's a difference in knowing something probably isn't good for you and knowing exactly why it is bad. Plus, a lot of the new stuff isn't even about concussions, but just the accumulation of head traumas that don't have much of an effect on you at the time, but build up. Even last year in the NFL there were some players who after the season was over admitted they probably got a concussion but didn't report it. Also, I've always heard 7, not 5. Maybe where you played was a bit more sensitive to concussions.

After voluntarily assuming a duty to investigate, study, and truthfully report to the public and NFL players, including the Plaintiffs, the medical risks associated with MTBI in football, the NFL instead ... falsely claimed that concussive and sub-concussive head impacts in football do not present serious, life-altering risks," the complaint says

It isn't that concussions weren't known to be bad. We were warned about concussions when I played soccer as a kid. However, there is a difference between something like lowering your IQ a bit or having slightly worse long term memory and developing full blown dementia in your 50's or other such diseases well before it is normal. Bad knees, general soreness, decreased mental acuity were all known and expected risks. Some of the worse stuff was not known, now was the idea that you don't have to have a full blown concussion to develop some of these things.

Some of your rant seems to focused on the idea that coaches weren't trying to milk their players regardless of the risk. I don't anybody is mad at the coaches. Again, people knew that concussions weren't good back then and coaches would protect players the best they knew how. We are better today at diagnosing concussions then we were back in the day, but head impacts are going to be a part of the game, even if you remove helmets.

The question is if the NFL knew about the major impacts concussions and the like could have and did not warn the players about it. The NFL settled so we will never know for sure. However, the analogy would be that yes, you should know you are going to have bad knees and probably a bad back when you are older if you play football, there's a good chance of breaking a bone which will also ache when you get older. However, imagine if players could become paralyzed 15 years after retiring due to the collection of dings from playing football or perhaps just have an arm fall off due to accumulation of bruises. That is what people are talking about with the head injuries in football. If you get two bruises a week on your arm for 10 years you don't expect it to fall off or become paralyzed from that. You may expect some circulation issues, tendonitis and arthritis, maybe even brittle bones. That was the same magnitude injury risks people associated with the head trauma, but some are experiencing a higher tier of risks that they didn't expect.

[Rocky Mountain Living]

It is just the latest hot topic for the media to write about.

Blame it on the media........HA HA

Media been writing about the latest hot topic for over 20 years now




December 1994.  ....here is the Commish on the Media

NFL Commissioner Paul Tagliabue describes concussions as a "pack journalism issue" during a panel on the future of sports:

"On concussions, I think is one of these pack journalism issues, frankly... There is no increase in concussions, the number is relatively small... The problem is a journalist issue. "

[DeltaBoy]

My prayers are with these players.  Your health is all you really got and once it is gone it gone.

[daprospecta]

Offensive Lineman/Defensive Lineman are more pushing and shoving than head on collisions etc.  Linebackers,Fullbacks, Runningbacks, Safeties, Tight Ends/Receivers are the positions of concern. 

[EastexHawg]

It doesn't seem logical to me that players getting bigger and faster is as big an issue as some think as long as size and speed are relative to other players.  If everyone is bigger and stronger, I don't think the danger of concussion is significantly higher than if they were all smaller and weaker.

Mike Tyson in his prime would have permanently injured, maybe killed, a middleweight who fought him.  Put him in the ring with other 215-230 pound men, however, and they were able to survive his power without lasting injury. 

It's not like middleweights (1970s football players) are now being matched up with heavyweights (2015 football players).   

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Offensive Lineman/Defensive Lineman are more pushing and shoving than head on collisions etc.  Linebackers,Fullbacks, Runningbacks, Safeties, Tight Ends/Receivers are the positions of concern. 

If you played O-Line I'm sure you had some head to head collisions several times each game, if you lead with the head. But you are right, the bigger collisions tend to occur with distance between players that close on one another like those you mentioned.

[Rocky Mountain Living]

It doesn't seem logical to me that players getting bigger and faster is as big an issue as some think as long as size and speed are relative to other players.  If everyone is bigger and stronger, I don't think the danger of concussion is significantly higher than if they were all smaller and weaker.

Mike Tyson in his prime would have permanently injured, maybe killed, a middleweight who fought him.  Put him in the ring with other 215-230 pound men, however, and they were able to survive his power without lasting injury. 

It's not like middleweights (1970s football players) are now being matched up with heavyweights (2015 football players).   

Size and Speed make a big difference....

Google Sir Issac Newton and that should will help u with your understanding how physics affects bodies in motion.

basically....here is the math behind the force of the brain impacting the skull

Force = Mass x Acceleration

Edit:
This video explains it.... Enjoy!

www.nasa.gov/audience/foreducators/topnav/materials/listbytype/Force_Equals_Mass_Times.html

[hogsanity]

Size and Speed make a big difference....

Google Sir Issac Newton and that should will help u with your understanding how physics affects bodies in motion.

basically....here is the math behind the force of the brain impacting the skull

Force = Mass x Acceleration

Edit:
This video explains it.... Enjoy!

www.nasa.gov/audience/foreducators/topnav/materials/listbytype/Force_Equals_Mass_Times.html

What I can't understand is how so many people still believe better helmets are the key to stopping head injuries. Helmets only prevent injuries to the skull, they do not stop the brain from sloshing around inside the skull, and crashing into it. Concussions can be caused my what appears to be very mild contact. They can occur without any contact to the head, a violent hit to the body can cause enough jarring to cause a concussion.

[Rocky Mountain Living]

What I can't understand is how so many people still believe better helmets are the key to stopping head injuries. Helmets only prevent injuries to the skull, they do not stop the brain from sloshing around inside the skull, and crashing into it. Concussions can be caused my what appears to be very mild contact. They can occur without any contact to the head, a violent hit to the body can cause enough jarring to cause a concussion.

I don't get the misunderstanding of the helmet vs the brain impacting skull either.


The other disconnect I don' t get is you have to allow the bruise to heal....no bueno getting more bruises on top of bruises that haven't had a chance to heal

love science....adult brains weighs 3 lbs



The force of me walking (w/o any contact to the head) affecting my brain is 32.2 (x 1 g...walking) x 3lbs =  97 force ( not doing units)....

what is really jacked up?....me making a tackle.....32.2 (x 30 g's average football impact) x 3 lbs = 2,900

2,900 vs 97 force....quite a difference of my brain impacting bone when I walk vs a football impact!

[EastexHawg]

What I can't understand is how so many people still believe better helmets are the key to stopping head injuries. Helmets only prevent injuries to the skull, they do not stop the brain from sloshing around inside the skull, and crashing into it. Concussions can be caused my what appears to be very mild contact. They can occur without any contact to the head, a violent hit to the body can cause enough jarring to cause a concussion.

Okay, so mass and acceleration are increased. 

Does the size/mass/strength of the recipient of that increased force not matter? 

Let's say Ray Lewis in his prime hit Eddie LeBaron...all 5'7" and 168 pounds of him...from the blind side.  The result would be quite a jolt to LeBaron's body.

Next up, have Lewis take a shot at Jared Lorenzen or Tim Tebow.  It's gonna hurt, but probably not as badly as what LeBaron absorbed.

Now...what's gonna happen when Lewis blindsides Andre the Giant?

Then, after he finishes with Andre, let him take his best shot at the Jolly Green Giant.

You're only looking at one side of the "force" argument.

[bennyl08]

Okay, so mass and acceleration are increased. 

Does the size/mass/strength of the recipient of that increased force not matter? 

Let's say Ray Lewis in his prime hit Eddie LeBaron...all 5'7" and 168 pounds of him...from the blind side.  The result would be quite a jolt to LeBaron's body.

Next up, have Lewis take a shot at Jared Lorenzen or Tim Tebow.  It's gonna hurt, but probably not as badly as what LeBaron absorbed.

Now...what's gonna happen when Lewis blindsides Andre the Giant?

Then, after he finishes with Andre, let him take his best shot at the Jolly Green Giant.

You're only looking at one side of the "force" argument.

What happens if you secure a spring attached to a basketball onto baseball bat and swing a sledgehammer at it? Now, what happens when you put that basketball on top of a tree trunk? The basketball is going to react the same to both hits. Now, the reaction of the baseball bat and the tree trunk will be different no doubt. Similarly, if you swing the sledgehammer at the bat/tree instead of the ball, then the acceleration of the ball will be different. The second scenario is what you are alluding to. However, you are treating that as the only scenario and viewing the entire system as a collection of point masses, and not how the real world works. Where somebody gets hit effects things. Now, as a person gets bigger, they do gain some strength in the neck, i.e. the spring constant gets larger and stronger. However, not enough to outpace the strength of the rest.

Secondly, the bigger you are, the harder you fall. Let's assume they are point masses. The baseball bat has less mass than the tree stump, so it will accelerate faster when hit with the same force. When it lands, it then accelerates again negatively. The tree stump will accelerate slower when hit and have a slower negative acceleration upon impact with the ground. However, the force is still the same for both. Now, looking at the who body instead of a point mass, if it is the head hitting the ground first, then it experiences the full force first before the impact travels through the rest of the body.

[EastexHawg]

What happens if you secure a spring attached to a basketball onto baseball bat and swing a sledgehammer at it? Now, what happens when you put that basketball on top of a tree trunk? The basketball is going to react the same to both hits. Now, the reaction of the baseball bat and the tree trunk will be different no doubt. Similarly, if you swing the sledgehammer at the bat/tree instead of the ball, then the acceleration of the ball will be different. The second scenario is what you are alluding to. However, you are treating that as the only scenario and viewing the entire system as a collection of point masses, and not how the real world works. Where somebody gets hit effects things. Now, as a person gets bigger, they do gain some strength in the neck, i.e. the spring constant gets larger and stronger. However, not enough to outpace the strength of the rest.

Secondly, the bigger you are, the harder you fall. Let's assume they are point masses. The baseball bat has less mass than the tree stump, so it will accelerate faster when hit with the same force. When it lands, it then accelerates again negatively. The tree stump will accelerate slower when hit and have a slower negative acceleration upon impact with the ground. However, the force is still the same for both. Now, looking at the who body instead of a point mass, if it is the head hitting the ground first, then it experiences the full force first before the impact travels through the rest of the body.

So your argument is that Mickey Rooney's and Hulk Hogan's risks of concussion from a Ray Lewis hit are the same?

Okay.

   

[bennyl08]

So your argument is that Mickey Rooney's and Hulk Hogan's risks of concussion from a Ray Lewis hit are the same?

Okay.

You don't give concussions from hitting somebody in their center of mass. They come from impacts to the head. Ray Lewis isn't going to be able to accelerate Hulk Hogan nearly as much as he could Rooney. However, if Ray Lewis collides fully with Rooney's head and Hogan's head then the damage is going to be approximately the same. If Ray Lewis tackles at the chest, I'd rather be Hogan than Rooney. If I am absorbing the full blow to my head, I'd still rather be Hogan because his neck will provide a bit more protection but the difference isn't nearly as much.

Are you saying that people who work out gain muscle around their skulls?

[MuskogeeHogFan]

You don't give concussions from hitting somebody in their center of mass. They come from impacts to the head. Ray Lewis isn't going to be able to accelerate Hulk Hogan nearly as much as he could Rooney. However, if Ray Lewis collides fully with Rooney's head and Hogan's head then the damage is going to be approximately the same. If Ray Lewis tackles at the chest, I'd rather be Hogan than Rooney. If I am absorbing the full blow to my head, I'd still rather be Hogan because his neck will provide a bit more protection but the difference isn't nearly as much.

Are you saying that people who work out gain muscle around their skulls?

Two players coming at each other full speed with the same amount of force are going to create a greater force of impact than one that is going full speed and one that is going half speed (or the equivalent thereof). Granted, the guy going half speed may be the guy who gets injured the most because of a less protecetd hit, but in terms of head to head collisions, the two going full speed who meet are going to create the greater force of impact. Not saying that anyone in this thread is wrong, just stating a fact.

[bennyl08]

Two players coming at each other full speed with the same amount of force are going to create a greater force of impact than one that is going full speed and one that is going half speed (or the equivalent thereof). Granted, the guy going half speed may be the guy who gets injured the most because of a less protecetd hit, but in terms of head to head collisions, the two going full speed who meet are going to create the greater force of impact. Not saying that anyone in this thread is wrong, just stating a fact.

True, that is just irrelevant. I mean, if I run into a car parked car at 33 miles per hour head first, the car runs into my head at 33 mph while I'm still, or I'm walking at 3 mph and the car is going 30, the impact is the same. Of course, what happens after the impact is highly dependent, but the impact itself is the same.