Arkansas Would Have Ended Up in the SEC Anyway

[NaturalStateReb]

To the smattering of fans who say that Arkansas should have went to the Big 12:  it wouldn't have mattered.  Arkansas would have ended up in the SEC, anyway.

Arkansas would have been subject to the same forces tearing up the Big 12 had the Hogs decided to stick with the Texas schools an enter the Big 12 when it formed in 1994.  Arkansas would not have provided more stability to the league than schools like Nebraska, Colorado, Missouri, or Texas A&M; indeed, Texas and Oklahoma would have seen Arkansas as just another competitor for money and influence in the league.

The same market forces and indignities would have eventually compelled Arkansas to move, probably when Nebraska and Colorado broke away.  Arkansas would have been a poor fit for either the Big 10 or the ACC.  As one of the easternmost Big 12 schools, Arkansas would almost certainly have decamped for the SEC.

Arkansas was destined for the SEC.  The only question was whether it would happen in the early 90s or twenty years later.

[hoghiker]

Do not believe Arkansas would get an invite to join the SEC in the current configuration of college football. Possible but not probable. Not enough TV sets in Arkansas to make us a viable option.

[go hogues]

Do not believe Arkansas would get an invite to join the SEC in the current configuration of college football. Possible but not probable. Not enough TV sets in Arkansas to make us a viable option.

This

[RazrRila99]

Also, Arkansas was a big reason he Big whatever even exists.  If Arkansas wouldn't have left the SWC the SWC would have hung on and possibly broke up the Big 8.  Instead, Frank "took the money and ran" to the bank.  Im glad he had the foresight to see what was coming.  Other than Tejass and aTm I don't have a connection to anyone/thing in the current Big whatever. 

[Marshfieldhog]

You know, Arkansas actually gets pretty good TV ratings when we play. I think we have somewhat of a following/ interest that goes beyond the state.

[Arkansas Fan]

You know, Arkansas actually gets pretty good TV ratings when we play. I think we have somewhat of a following/ interest that goes beyond the state.

The Wisconsin fans are interested to see how Bielema does.

[Paul]

We're very lucky to be in the SEC

[Hoginsavga]

AR is in the conference where it belongs. AR is bordered by 5 states that sponsor 7 of the 14 teams making up the SEC. The only other state that exceeds that number is TN. When viewing the map of the US we are a southern state and fall within the eastern half of the US. SC borders only one state that has an SEC team. If we were in the Big 12 we would border only two states that sponsor those teams.

Having lived in GA about 50 years, I can say we (AR) fit better both geographically and culturally in the SEC than in any other conference. With regard to TV viewers AR probably exceeds many other SEC teams including some that have been members longer than us.

[LZH]

Frank.  Broyles.

AMF.

[go hogues]

When viewing the map of the US we are a southern state and fall within the eastern half of the US.
Having lived in GA about 50 years, I can say we (AR) fit better both geographically and culturally in the SEC than in any other conference.

I think one reason why Arkansas is kind of overlooked - across many fronts - is we are kind of a no man's land, geographically.
We are not southwest, though many US data management services classify us as such. Arkansas only really identifies with the southeast in culture from a diagonal line running from Texarkana to Jonesboro and points south and east of that line. While points north and west of that line kind of identify with the great plains states but at the same time, kind of not.
We were the odd man out in the SWC and basically were in the SEC until Mizzou joined up. It's funny, because from a cultural perspective, I think there's no doubt we belong in the SEC but from a regional perspective - especially given the campus' location - we should be in the Big 12 (though that would be horrible).

[DLUXHOG]

Do not believe Arkansas would get an invite to join the SEC in the current configuration of college football. Possible but not probable. Not enough TV sets in Arkansas to make us a viable option.

Same thing could be said regarding Mississippi, Mississippi State, LSU, South Carolina, Kentucky, and Alabama........... All of these states have less than 5MM in total state population.......(Mississippi and Arkansas are sisters at just under 3MM each.   BTW, ~ 20 other states and territories have less population than Arkansas, including Nebraska, Kansas, etc...... Top 5 states in population are California - 38MM, Texas - 27MM, Florida - 20MM, New York - 20MM (most are in the NYC MSA though), and Illinois - 13MM (likewise, most of these are in the Chicago MSA as well))

[wildturkey8]

I think one reason why Arkansas is kind of overlooked - across many fronts - is we are kind of a no man's land, geographically.
We are not southwest, though many US data management services classify us as such. Arkansas only really identifies with the southeast in culture from a diagonal line running from Texarkana to Jonesboro and points south and east of that line. While points north and west of that line kind of identify with the great plains states but at the same time, kind of not.
We were the odd man out in the SWC and basically were in the SEC until Mizzou joined up. It's funny, because from a cultural perspective, I think there's no doubt we belong in the SEC but from a regional perspective - especially given the campus' location - we should be in the Big 12 (though that would be horrible).

That line between Texarkana and Jonesboro separates the Deep South from the Upper South.  The Ozarks have a lot in common with Kentucky and Tennessee.

[Hoginsavga]

I think one reason why Arkansas is kind of overlooked - across many fronts - is we are kind of a no man's land, geographically.
We are not southwest, though many US data management services classify us as such. Arkansas only really identifies with the southeast in culture from a diagonal line running from Texarkana to Jonesboro and points south and east of that line. While points north and west of that line kind of identify with the great plains states but at the same time, kind of not.
We were the odd man out in the SWC and basically were in the SEC until Mizzou joined up. It's funny, because from a cultural perspective, I think there's no doubt we belong in the SEC but from a regional perspective - especially given the campus' location - we should be in the Big 12 (though that would be horrible).

Thank you. I was thinking of AR as a whole and not necessarily where the University is located. I was raised in central AR and at that time the fans of the Hogs were all over the state. I hope that is still the case. However, the U of A is still south of Mizzou and KY. It also appears we are south of Vandy and on the same latitude as Knoxville. Besides, who would ever want to be in the same conference as Texas again.

[Hoginsavga]

Same thing could be said regarding Mississippi, Mississippi State, LSU, South Carolina, Kentucky, and Alabama........... All of these states have less than 5MM in total state population.......(Mississippi and Arkansas are sisters at just under 3MM each.   BTW, ~ 20 other states and territories have less population than Arkansas, including Nebraska, Kansas, etc...... Top 5 states in population are California - 38MM, Texas - 27MM, Florida - 20MM, New York - 20MM (most are in the NYC MSA though), and Illinois - 13MM (likewise, most of these are in the Chicago MSA as well))

Further to your point, Alabama, Mississippi, SC east and TN (to a lesser extent) have split fan bases. KY is torn between football and basketball. Not to mention that some states have pro football. The Hogs basically have no competition for football with regard to TV sets in the state.

[Hogarusa]

You know, Arkansas actually gets pretty good TV ratings when we play. I think we have somewhat of a following/ interest that goes beyond the state.

Yea, no.  Arkansas gets good TV ratings for being in the SEC and playing the heavyweights of the world.  Without that, the #s that matter would have been Little Rock being the #56 TV market and NWA being #100.

[woodhog14]

Further to your point, Alabama, Mississippi, SC east and TN (to a lesser extent) have split fan bases. KY is torn between football and basketball. Not to mention that some states have pro football. The Hogs basically have no competition for football with regard to TV sets in the state.

Split fan base doesn't matter. When you look at the ratings, the highest rated city/MSA that watches college football in the country is Birmingham, AL.

[thirrdegreetusker]

Do not believe Arkansas would get an invite to join the SEC in the current configuration of college football. Possible but not probable. Not enough TV sets in Arkansas to make us a viable option.

Quite possibly true. When we joined, SEC was not the kick-butt "brand" it is now. From '85 to '92, no SEC football team won ANY version of the NC.

[DukeOfPork]

Frank.  Broyles.

AMF.

Yep, Frank was ahead of his time on this.  He secured our future years before all of the upheaval.

[DLUXHOG]

Split fan base doesn't matter. When you look at the ratings, the highest rated city/MSA that watches college football in the country is Birmingham, AL.

Link?  with only 212,000 +/- in population, surely this is a percentage calculation..............

[woodhog14]

Link?  with only 212,000 +/- in population, surely this is a percentage calculation..............

Here you go...

http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2014/12/birmingham_is_top_tv_market_fo.html

ESPN's final ratings for the 2014 college football regular season are out, and Birmingham is the highest rated market for the 14th straight year.

Birmingham averaged a 9.2 rating for the 74 ESPN regular-season telecasts, more than double the 4.2 turned in by New Orleans. That included a 51.8 rating in Birmingham for the Nov. 30 Iron Bowl, ESPN's most-watched regular season college football telecast since it began keeping records in 2000.

The top seven TV markets for ESPN college football were all in the Deep South, with Knoxville, Tenn., Greenville, S.C., Memphis, Atlanta and Jacksonville, Fla., also drawing big numbers. Oklahoma City was eighth and Tulsa ninth, with Nashville and Columbus, Ohio, tying for 10th.

[DeltaBoy]

Yep, Frank was ahead of his time on this.  He secured our future years before all of the upheaval.

As much as I have ragged on Frank over the years  Getting us into the SEC was the Crowning move of his career at the UA.

[woodhog14]

Here is a link with ratings for every game played last year...Our highest rated game was the Texas bowl with a 3.4 and a 2.7 vs. Mizzou and another 2.7 against A&M.

http://www.sportsmediawatch.com/college-football-tv-ratings/

[Hoginsavga]

I am always surprised and delighted at the number of Dawg fans that watch AR football when Ga is not playing. Also most of them tell me they are pulling for AR to win. Maybe it's because they dislike the other teams or it could be they know I am a Hog. Whichever it makes me proud. Of my friends I believe AR is their second favorite SEC team. A lot of good people in GA as there is in AR.

[Mike Irwin]

Link?  with only 212,000 +/- in population, surely this is a percentage calculation..............

It is a percentage but don't discount that.

Let's say you had a TV market with 5 million TV homes. Let's further say that 5 % of those homes were tuned to college football on a typical Saturday. That's 250,000 viewers.

Now let's say you have a market with 700,000 TV homes but 50% are watching college football. That's 350,000 viewers.

Also consider that a TV market is not defined by the population of a specific city in that market but the total number of TV homes in that market. The Birmingham TV market in the fall of last year was estimated to have 710,000 TV homes.

[NaturalStateReb]

Do not believe Arkansas would get an invite to join the SEC in the current configuration of college football. Possible but not probable. Not enough TV sets in Arkansas to make us a viable option.

Would have come in with Texas A&M.  TV problem solved.

[Mike Irwin]

Do not believe Arkansas would get an invite to join the SEC in the current configuration of college football. Possible but not probable. Not enough TV sets in Arkansas to make us a viable option.

You are confusing total TV sets with the number of sets turned on and tuned to college football.

The only thing that matters in the TV business is how many TV sets are in use and what specifically are they tuned to.

A set that is not in use or not tuned to whatever it is you're promoting is of no value to you.

[SouthSide Johnny]

You are confusing total TV sets with the number of sets turned on and tuned to college football.

The only thing that matters in the TV business is how many TV sets are in use and what specifically are they tuned to.

A set that is not in use or not tuned to whatever it is you're promoting is of no value to you.

So what is the number in Arkansas?

[Mike Irwin]

So what is the number in Arkansas?

According to the Nielsen ratings Arkansas is the number three college football program in the nation in terms of local TV viewership.

http://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/2014/sec-best-local-fan-bases-2013/

[WizardofhOgZ]

Would have come in with Texas A&M.  TV problem solved.

Sure . . . and the CIA will gladly exchange Nina Krilova for Zinaida Preobrazhenskaya (a "The Americans" reference) . . . 

That is to say, the best laid plans don't always happen as we expect, and speculation about what might have happened is just that . . . speculation. 

Bottom line - there is NO guarantee that Arkansas would be in the SEC today had Frank not moved them when he did.  Might they be?  Yes.  How likely?  IMO, 50% or less.

[SouthSide Johnny]

According to the Nielsen ratings Arkansas is the number three college football program in the nation in terms of local TV viewership.

WoW That's something, shows the state wide fan support for the Hogs.  Who are the top 2? Thanks Mike

Saw the link, so it's ranked by city (Little Rock)

[Mike Irwin]

WoW That's something, shows the state wide fan support for the Hogs.  Who are the top 2? Thanks Mike

Ohio State and Alabama.

[hoghiker]

According to the Nielsen ratings Arkansas is the number three college football program in the nation in terms of local TV viewership.

http://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/2014/sec-best-local-fan-bases-2013/

Interesting. Who are the top two?

[SouthSide Johnny]

Actually it is % of population that Watched, Attended or Listened to the team in the past 12 months.

A lot broader criteria than just TV 

'Nielsen ranked college football's top local fan bases for 2013. The study is based on a percentage of the population that's watched or listened to the team in the past 12 months"

[MuskogeeHogFan]

You are confusing total TV sets with the number of sets turned on and tuned to college football.

The only thing that matters in the TV business is how many TV sets are in use and what specifically are they tuned to.

A set that is not in use or not tuned to whatever it is you're promoting is of no value to you.

And to which selected programming, right? As an example, Florida State had a hard time putting butts in the bleachers for a while, but their national t.v. ratings (sets tuned into their games) were always high. I may be wrong, and Mike you know far more about this than any of us, but isn't it more a matter of how many t.v. sets are tuned into a specific teams games all over the country, and not just on a regional or local basis?

[Mike Irwin]

Actually it is % of population that Watched, Attended or Listened to the team in the past 12 months.

A lot broader criteria than just TV 

'Nielsen ranked college football's top local fan bases for 2013. The study is based on a percentage of the population that's watched or listened to the team in the past 12 months"

You are correct but TV is a major component. This explains why Arkansas was and is still attractive to the SEC. Those in this thread, doing what they usually do, (lowballing Arkansas) rarely have their facts straight.

[Mike Irwin]

And to which selected programming, right? As an example, Florida State had a hard time putting butts in the bleachers for a while, but their national t.v. ratings (sets tuned into their games) were always high. I may be wrong, and Mike you know far more about this than any of us, but isn't it more a matter of how many t.v. sets are tuned into a specific teams games all over the country, and not just on a regional or local basis?

Yes that matters but ESPN and CBS have big contracts with the SEC because of the high saturation of their product across the south.

[Mike Irwin]

Here's another example of how people misunderstand TV homes vs TV viewership. In the Ft. Smith, Arkansas TV market there are approximately double the number of TV homes in NWA as opposed to the river valley. Yet the one station based in the river valley, is number one. Why? Because NWA people watch a lot less TV than those in the river valley.

Half the TV homes but triple the viewership makes a difference.

[redeye]

Also, Arkansas was a big reason he Big whatever even exists.  If Arkansas wouldn't have left the SWC the SWC would have hung on and possibly broke up the Big 8.  Instead, Frank "took the money and ran" to the bank.  Im glad he had the foresight to see what was coming.  Other than Tejass and aTm I don't have a connection to anyone/thing in the current Big whatever.

I don't think you can make statements like this without making a lot of assumptions.  I believe a big reason for our bolting to the SEC was because we were about to get left out of a proposed super-conference and would have been stuck in a weakened SWC after Texas bolted.  Leaving was a no-brainer and it probably helped to stabilize the SEC, since LSU had also considered leaving for a proposed super-conference.  I would guess that we would have been invited into the Big-12, but that's just a guess and I don't even know if the Big-12 would have materialized if we had not left the SWC.

I'm not at all confident that the SEC would have invited us at a later time.  Not saying that it wouldn't have happened, but I'm just not confident that it would.

I grew up in Central Arkansas in the seventies and back then I thought of Arkansas as more of a Southwestern state.  That may have been due to our affiliation with the SWC, but I'm confident in saying that there was more talk of Arkansas as Southwestern back then and more talk of Southern these days.  I also thought there were big differences between Arkansas and Deep South states back then and I think many from the Deep South would have agreed.  A lot has changed since then, though.

[Mike Irwin]

I don't think you can make statements like this without making a lot of assumptions.  I believe a big reason for our bolting to the SEC was because we were about to get left out of a proposed super-conference and would have been stuck in a weakened SWC after Texas bolted.  Leaving was a no-brainer and it probably helped to stabilize the SEC, since LSU had also considered leaving for a proposed super-conference.  I would guess that we would have been invited into the Big-12, but that's just a guess and I don't even know if the Big-12 would have materialized if we had not left the SWC.

I'm not at all confident that the SEC would have invited us at a later time.  Not saying that it wouldn't have happened, but I'm just not confident that it would.

I grew up in Central Arkansas in the seventies and back then I thought of Arkansas as more of a Southwestern state.  That may have been due to our affiliation with the SWC, but I'm confident in saying that there was more talk of Arkansas as Southwestern back then and more talk of Southern these days.  I also thought there were big differences between Arkansas and Deep South states back then and I think many from the Deep South would have agreed.  A lot has changed since then, though.

Texas wasn't going anywhere and neither was LSU. Arkansas was not afraid of being left behind. Frank wanted out of the SEC because schools like SMU, TCU, Rice, Baylor, Houston and Texas Tech kept teaming up to vote against anything that was beneficial to Texas, Arkansas and A&M.

The SEC actually targeted Arkansas. Roy Kramer approached  Frank Broyles because the SEC was looking to expand and they wanted a couple of schools that fit what already existed in the SEC, a conference where one or two schools dominated entire states, where fans filled stadiums, watched on TV and listened on the radio in much greater numbers than other parts of the country.

Arkansas fit the bill on all of that and it still does. This notion that Arkansas would not be attractive to the SEC today is bogus.

[Hawghiggs]

As much as I have ragged on Frank over the years  Getting us into the SEC was the Crowning move of his career at the UA.

He also tried to get us in the Big 8 back in the late 70's.

[alohawg]

You know, Arkansas actually gets pretty good TV ratings when we play. I think we have somewhat of a following/ interest that goes beyond the state.

There's quite a few Hawaiians that root for the hogs on da' west side of Oahu where I live. I've been sportin' hog gear for decades over here and know plenty guys that tell me they always root hog when we are on.   

[Hawghiggs]

I don't think you can make statements like this without making a lot of assumptions.  I believe a big reason for our bolting to the SEC was because we were about to get left out of a proposed super-conference and would have been stuck in a weakened SWC after Texas bolted.  Leaving was a no-brainer and it probably helped to stabilize the SEC, since LSU had also considered leaving for a proposed super-conference.  I would guess that we would have been invited into the Big-12, but that's just a guess and I don't even know if the Big-12 would have materialized if we had not left the SWC.

I'm not at all confident that the SEC would have invited us at a later time.  Not saying that it wouldn't have happened, but I'm just not confident that it would.

I grew up in Central Arkansas in the seventies and back then I thought of Arkansas as more of a Southwestern state.  That may have been due to our affiliation with the SWC, but I'm confident in saying that there was more talk of Arkansas as Southwestern back then and more talk of Southern these days.  I also thought there were big differences between Arkansas and Deep South states back then and I think many from the Deep South would have agreed.  A lot has changed since then, though.

The current Big 12 owns the naming rights to the Big 14. They have owned these rights since the formation of the Big 12. So, I don't believe we would have been left out of anything.

[Hawghiggs]

 I don't think we should ever look at the SEC as the end game for Arkansas. It's nice but it ain't that nice. If we could wave a magic wand and build whatever conference we wanted. Then a conference based around Arkansas,Louisiana,Oklahoma,and Texas would be the way to go.

[NaturalStateReb]

I don't think we should ever look at the SEC as the end game for Arkansas. It's nice but it ain't that nice. If we could wave a magic wand and build whatever conference we wanted. Then a conference based around Arkansas,Louisiana,Oklahoma,and Texas would be the way to go.

If you're waiting on something better than the SEC to come along, you're going to be waiting a long, long time.

And I don't get this whole "LSU might leave" vibe.  LSU is a charter member of the country's richest, most powerful conference.  They're just never going to leave. 

I'll go even farther--none of the 10 charter SEC members will ever leave.  It's just way too close knit for that, and the advantages are simply overpowering.  It's not like the old SWC or the Big 12 or even the ACC. 

[Justifiable Hogicide]

Arkansas in the SEC.
Thanks to the genius and ability of Frank Broyles.

[Inhogswetrust]

Further to your point, Alabama, Mississippi, SC east and TN (to a lesser extent) have split fan bases. KY is torn between football and basketball. Not to mention that some states have pro football. The Hogs basically have no competition for football with regard to TV sets in the state.

Funny you should mention Pro ball. There are only five states in the SEC that don't have NFL football. Arkansas, Alabama, Mississippi, Kentucky and South Carolina. Two of those have them literally in cities that immediately borders them with Cincinatti and Charlotte bordering KY and SC respectively. There are fans of both of those in those two states. Therefore for the SEC to draw as well as they do from TV viewership is very, very impressive.

[NaturalStateReb]

Funny you should mention Pro ball. There are only five states in the SEC that don't have NFL football. Arkansas, Alabama, Mississippi, Kentucky and South Carolina. Two of those have them literally in cities that immediately borders them with Cincinatti and Charlotte bordering KY and SC respectively. There are fans of both of those in those two states. Therefore for the SEC to draw as well as they do from TV viewership is very, very impressive.

Don't forget New Orleans.  Very close to south Mississippi and Alabama.

[Inhogswetrust]

Don't forget New Orleans.  Very close to south Mississippi and Alabama.

A little difference noted. That's true but my point was about those states that don't have pro football or no SEC team within that state OR the  adjacent state where the Pro team is.  What I mean is obviously there is a SEC team in the state of LA and it has fans within both Bama and Miss. The states and cities where those pro teams are located do not have an SEC team in them as does LA. I could perhaps have done a better job of trying to get my point across and your point is well taken.

P.S. Come to think of it there isn't ONE SEC state that doesn't have a Pro team in it OR a Pro team in some bordering state.

[Cinco de Hogo]

A little difference noted. That's true but my point was about those states that don't have pro football or no SEC team within that state OR the  adjacent state where the Pro team is.  What I mean is obviously there is a SEC team in the state of LA and it has fans within both Bama and Miss. The states and cities where those pro teams are located do not have an SEC team in them as does LA. I could perhaps have done a better job of trying to get my point across and your point is well taken.

P.S. Come to think of it there isn't ONE SEC state that doesn't have a Pro team in it OR a Pro team in some bordering state.

With Misery in the SEC I believe I see and talk to more Chiegs fans now, and having Knile there doesn't hurt.

[Cinco de Hogo]

My dream conference is any conference that Arkansas can win on a consistent basis and still be in the national talk.  Kansas State is a good example, so take Texas and Oklahoma out of the Big 12 and add a few competitive teams to get to 12 and let us win it and we would be just fine.  The money from winning would roll on like it did in the 60-80 era. We would operate in the black just like we did then and everyone would be happy with an 80% winning record.  I don't give a freek about the prestige of being in the SEC or any certain conference and I don't care about trying to keep up with the rich, elite teams of the world.  Heck in the SEC we have trouble even doing what Baylor and TCU has done lately...that's embarrassing. 

The problem here is that some of you think if you work for a rich man and live in a shack on his property you are better than that poor soul that has a regular job and or is self employed.  Either is fine as long as the egos don't mess you up.

What I am saying is I had rather win championships and have 10-2 records than be rich.