Randy Shannon

[HogFoo]

No, losing 4 NFL-level players hurt more.  The DL was supposed to be not as great but a solid piece to the defense this year, and they are just now getting to where they should have been in week 3.  The DL being weaker and lack of depth in the back 7 is the reason for poor play.

A lot of people last year were screaming to PAY Robb Smith before he got away, and now we have people screaming that his scheme is terrible.  This defense should be significantly better next year, but that's just wild speculation on my part.  I just hope the LBs committed can make an immediate impact and at least 1 DB that is a lock-down corner.

^^^This is pretty much dead on.   I really wish that we could have been in a position to have been able to redshirt every Juco that we get.  Had we been able to do that Spaight would have been a Sr' this year.  Imagine how much better this team would have been had Spaight been redshirted when he came in, if he was able to have been.   Same thing with Ledbetter.  He didn't really start coming on until mid/later in the season.     Same thing with Reed.  Reed couldnt find the field until what the UT game?  About the only juco in years past that were able to pretty much come in and make an impact right away was probably Tretola, and he didnt even practice but maybe a week or so before last season and he's probably the best OL on the team right now.     

This team will be ok.  Ellis was on the field for an insane amount of plays against MSU.  He didn't come off for a single defensive play.  And that was what 82 plays?  That is way to much without getting a rest.  That's how thin we are at LB.  Think about that!   Also, think about this, Tolliver, richardson, and some of the other guys looked like sticks out there compared to MSU's receivers.  That Ross kid was like Treadwell, and some of the other receivers MSU had all looked prototypical 6'3 220lbs comparied to our Db's who look maybe 6' 180lbs.    And our Dbs are mostly soph's.  So, cut them some slack.  The defense will get better, as offense will pretty much be just as good next year, depending upon what Jr's leave and hopefully our Special teams will be more....... Special.   hahaha     we'll be ok though.   

So, to sum it up once again.  No, we did not miss Shannon.

[Dropkick]

Not meant to be a bash but I wonder if Ellis is playing hurt? He always seems to be a step or two late to the spot.

[regi]

Not meant to be a bash but I wonder if Ellis is playing hurt? He always seems to be a step or two late to the spot.

He is not injured...

[PorkRinds]

Your opinion.


LBers are pretty bad.

Greenlaw might end up being great player but he shouldn't be starting as a true frosh in this scheme.

Ellis was better last year.

The top defensive freshman in the sec shouldn't be starting?  What was that about opinions? Yours is definitely an opinion, just an ill informed one.

[thefisher]

Maybe it was a shot at Alvarez.   

Zoooks! That is an angle I hadn't considered. However, I REALLY like the potential of where it is heading! +1

[Hoggish1]

I'm an accountant, and I say losing Shannon accounted for 1.3% and losing four great players accounted for 99.7%.  I said I'm an accountant, but I never said I could add too good.  My grammar ain't all that great neither.

101% fogetaboudit...

[Hogeration]

Not unless Shannon took 3 or 4 LBs with him when he left.  LB core has been down for a while.  No numbers at all.

[IronHog]

The top defensive freshman in the sec shouldn't be starting?  What was that about opinions? Yours is definitely an opinion, just an ill informed one.

Trey Biddy said the same thing on drive time today.


Don't care what his stats are.....a lightly recruited true frosh converted safety starting in Smiths scheme is no Bueno.

[ricepig]

Trey Biddy said the same thing on drive time today.


Don't care what his stats are.....a lightly recruited true frosh converted safety starting in Smiths scheme is no Bueno.

Well, if Trey Biddy said it........

[IronHog]

Not meant to be a bash but I wonder if Ellis is playing hurt? He always seems to be a step or two late to the spot.

Overbulked IMO.

[IronHog]

Well, if Trey Biddy said it........

He's out there because they got no one else.....not because he's ready.

[ricepig]

He's out there because they got no one else.....not because he's ready.

Correct, anyone and everyone knows that, injuries, busts, and lack of talent eliminated the others, just like Ellis' freshman year.

[PorkRinds]

Trey Biddy said the same thing on drive time today.


Don't care what his stats are.....a lightly recruited true frosh converted safety starting in Smiths scheme is no Bueno.

Let me repeat. Top defensive Freshman in the SEC. Possible Freshman All American.  Special on ESPN as we speak. But you're the expert I suppose. You and Trey Biddy.

[nwahogfan1]

Maybe losing Randy Shannon was bigger than we thought? What do you guys think?

I think it was a lack of recruiting by Shannon that is hurting us the most. 

[onebadrubi]

Overbulked IMO.

You keep pushing this but how do you actually have ANY clue?  I think you are reaching making this assumption and have no real way of telling.

[onebadrubi]

Let me repeat. Top defensive Freshman in the SEC. Possible Freshman All American.  Special on ESPN as we speak. But you're the expert I suppose. You and Trey Biddy.

While I like to hear treys opinion because it usually is middle of the road and appreciate his recruit info, he's often wrong.  I think a better way of saying it is we wish greenlaw was only seeing special teams and light reps at LB'er this year and that we did have a better experienced option.  But we don't and Greenlaw has done an amazing job and really made a name for himself.

[sickboy]

Let me repeat. Top defensive Freshman in the SEC. Possible Freshman All American.  Special on ESPN as we speak. But you're the expert I suppose. You and Trey Biddy.

But, you know, if he would have redshirted he'd be potentially, like, MORE All American-er.

[scruf]

CBB alluded to the fact that having an OC with head coaching experience has been nice, but he once had a position coach with the same experience and it was some good and a lot of bad.  I took that to be Shannon because I couldn't think of another guy who fit those parameters.  I think he was a good LB coach, but the issues he caused within the staff were probably greater than the positives.  Our LBs have not been particularly great in coverage (save Spaight last year) with Shannon or Hargreaves.  For all the wonderful things we have seen from Dre, he has been abused in coverage (not quite as bad as Ellis, but pretty badly).  I'm not sure what is up with the D, but our overall cover skills have seemingly eroded.  Collins, Dean, and Toliver don't look like the same guys from last year, and let's not even discuss what the Safeties are doing.  I am aware we lack the pash rush from a year ago, but our guys aren't even in the same area code on a lot of completed passes, particularly the LBs.

I was going to bring up the same comments that CBB made (indirectly) about Shannon and also take it one step further...

I have a friend who worked with Shannon on a daily basis and we were talking about him one day. I asked why we didn't have better talent at LB since Randy Shannon had some good recruiting ties and name recognition. He said without hesitation, "Because he's lazy."

As to your point about Greenlaw and Ellis getting abused in coverage: This is more of a schematic problem and less of an athletic problem. A lot of times when they've really gotten abused it's because the Hogs were either in a 4-2-5 or 5-2-4 alignment, leaving only 2 LBs to cover the middle of the field. This alignment is both a function of the defensive staff's effort to stop the spread coupled with higher than average attrition at LB.

As far as LB production on the field goes, in 2014, Brooks and Martrell combined for 200 tackles in 24 games. That's an average of 16.7 tackles per game as a pair. Through 22 games in 2015, Brooks and Dre have combined for 183 tackles. That works out to a combined 16.7 tackles per game.

The bottom line is that Randy Shannon's departure doesn't appear to have hurt the LB corps. The group has been productive in the face of injuries (Dwayne Eugene, Josh Williams) and attrition (Randy Ramsey, Kendrick Jackson - due to depth at FB). Next year should be much, much better with added depth and the experience of this year's group.

[Wooderson]

I can't stand it when people throw out how many tackles a player has made. Guess what, bad defenses have players with lots of tackles. What matters is how and where a tackle is made.

Want to see how bad Ellis has been watch the ole miss qb td run in ot.

[IronHog]

You keep pushing this but how do you actually have ANY clue?  I think you are reaching making this assumption and have no real way of telling.

He looks much bigger and simply can't get there this year vs last.

Not bashing anyone.  Several players look slower and I am not the only one who thinks so......

[Pork Twain]

Uh, ell no. He didn't want Greenlaw. And, unless he was willing to do Ramsey's homework and tests, and keep Josh Williams and Eugene from breaking bones, then I don't see how we lost much.

This and the defensive studs we lost are why we have struggled.

[IronHog]

Let me repeat. Top defensive Freshman in the SEC. Possible Freshman All American.  Special on ESPN as we speak. But you're the expert I suppose. You and Trey Biddy.

Nobody said he couldn't play football.....just he shouldn't be playing yet in an ideal situation.


He makes plays, he misses stuff......true frosh on a struggling defense full of young players. 

He's fast though and this defense needs a heavy dose of speed across the board.

[IronHog]

I was going to bring up the same comments that CBB made (indirectly) about Shannon and also take it one step further...

I have a friend who worked with Shannon on a daily basis and we were talking about him one day. I asked why we didn't have better talent at LB since Randy Shannon had some good recruiting ties and name recognition. He said without hesitation, "Because he's lazy."

As to your point about Greenlaw and Ellis getting abused in coverage: This is more of a schematic problem and less of an athletic problem. A lot of times when they've really gotten abused it's because the Hogs were either in a 4-2-5 or 5-2-4 alignment, leaving only 2 LBs to cover the middle of the field. This alignment is both a function of the defensive staff's effort to stop the spread coupled with higher than average attrition at LB.

As far as LB production on the field goes, in 2014, Brooks and Martrell combined for 200 tackles in 24 games. That's an average of 16.7 tackles per game as a pair. Through 22 games in 2015, Brooks and Dre have combined for 183 tackles. That works out to a combined 16.7 tackles per game.

The bottom line is that Randy Shannon's departure doesn't appear to have hurt the LB corps. The group has been productive in the face of injuries (Dwayne Eugene, Josh Williams) and attrition (Randy Ramsey, Kendrick Jackson - due to depth at FB). Next year should be much, much better with added depth and the experience of this year's group.

How does playing Nickle put more pressure on the LB to cover?  Should help.



As far as tackle stats those don't indicate pass coverage effectiveness or impact plays.

[Big Boi]

To those worried about our LB in coverage. Do you realize LB can't cover the caliber of TE, slot and RB SEC is putting on field. Have we came across a team that has covered HH or JS? Even the NFL with best talent in world have a hard time covering same positions.

[IronHog]

To those worried about our LB in coverage. Do you realize LB can't cover the caliber of TE, slot and RB SEC is putting on field. Have we came across a team that has covered HH or JS? Even the NFL with best talent in world have a hard time covering same positions.

Arkansas has the best TEs in the nation and other teams manage to keep someone within 6 yards unless they blow a coverage.


It's just pitch and catch for these spread teams across the middle on too many plays.  Pass rush won't fix that......the LBers and Safeties gotta be in the right spot at the right time....

[Doug]

FL players so far have had trouble staying in the program.

Yeah, that Alex Collins kid sure is a bust. So disappointed in him.

SMDH.

[HogimusMaximus]

Yeah, that Alex Collins kid sure is a bust. So disappointed in him.

SMDH.

Cant fix stupid.

[1highhog]

The SEC, the new Big 12 of College Football is what's up.  Just about the whole makeup of teams in the SEC now how went the way of the Big-12 with this pass happy fun and gun offense or spread or call it whatever the hell every other team wants to call theirs.  And you're seeing the erosion of SEC defenses as well IMO.

So yes, the #1 thing to answer the OP's question is Randy Shannon is not the difference maker, I'm glad he's gone because I've not seen a drop off from our Florida pipeline yet.  The difference in last year and this year is talent plain and simple.  The rush we got from last year and the run stoppers we had, made a scary defense the 2nd half of the Season, one that I'm hoping will perhaps surface next year, if not, may be another long year.

[IronHog]

Yeah, that Alex Collins kid sure is a bust. So disappointed in him.

SMDH.

Kirkland is from Florida.


Nobody said Fl kids couldn't play or had issues.......Arkansas has had a hard time with several of them recently though.  They've lost 2WRs and a LBer just this year?  Just an observation.

[Big Boi]

Arkansas has the best TEs in the nation and other teams manage to keep someone within 6 yards unless they blow a coverage.


It's just pitch and catch for these spread teams across the middle on too many plays.  Pass rush won't fix that......the LBers and Safeties gotta be in the right spot at the right time....

why haven't BIG 12 teams fixed there defense?  They see the spread every week and can't stop anyone. The game is geared towards scoring points.

[IronHog]

why haven't BIG 12 teams fixed there defense?  They see the spread every week and can't stop anyone. The game is geared towards scoring points.

I agree for the most part.


This defense is bad but hasn't lost a game the offense didn't have plenty of chances to control yet.

[Sivad]

no

No.

[scruf]

Greenlaw is LIGHT YEARS ahead of Spaight as a first year Razorback. It's not even close. Ellis is having a better year this year than last year. As to the question of how nickel helps the LBs in pass coverage? Yes, it does. But, it doesn't help them bring down a running QB in space. At all. Also, when you go into nickel to stop 5 WR who are running clearouts it leaves the middle of the field open to spread teams who use the RB like an extra WR out of the backfield. Puts a lot of strain on a thin LB core. I'm really tired of hearing people bitch about Brooks Ellis. He's not what's wrong with the LB core. He and Dre need some help. If they were fresher they'd look a lot better out there.

[Inhogswetrust]

We've had several good players from Florida. One of which likes to design trophies................................

[IronHog]

Greenlaw is LIGHT YEARS ahead of Spaight as a first year Razorback. It's not even close. Ellis is having a better year this year than last year. As to the question of how nickel helps the LBs in pass coverage? Yes, it does. But, it doesn't help them bring down a running QB in space. At all. Also, when you go into nickel to stop 5 WR who are running clearouts it leaves the middle of the field open to spread teams who use the RB like an extra WR out of the backfield. Puts a lot of strain on a thin LB core. I'm really tired of hearing people bitch about Brooks Ellis. He's not what's wrong with the LB core. He and Dre need some help. If they were fresher they'd look a lot better out there.

You say that but most teams teams don't rotate much in the back 7 unless they have problems or exceptional depth.


Ellis is a pretty good linebacker esp against the run, buts he's struggled in pass coverage this year and couldn't lock down the Will which caused a scramble on the depth chart.


Arkansas has struggled with linebackers for 20+ years.  It's an Achilles heel for the program.

[IronHog]

We've had several good players from Florida. One of which likes to design trophies................................

Linebacker IIRC

[PonderinHog]

You say that but most teams teams don't rotate much in the back 7 unless they have problems or exceptional depth.


Ellis is a pretty good linebacker esp against the run, buts he's struggled in pass coverage this year and couldn't lock down the Will which caused a scramble on the depth chart.


Arkansas has struggled with linebackers for 20+ years.  It's an Achilles heel for the program.

And some of those defenses get off the field quicker, on average.

[IronHog]

And some of those defenses get off the field quicker, on average.

True.


You've got to get proper starters before you can build depth though.



If AJ Turner and Spaight were lining up as 5th year seniors we wouldn't be having this discussion........  got to identify and retain top talent.

[Tim Harris]

Without Shannon here what coach will we spend all off season talking about them getting a better job?

[ricepig]

Greenlaw is LIGHT YEARS ahead of Spaight as a first year Razorback. It's not even close. Ellis is having a better year this year than last year. As to the question of how nickel helps the LBs in pass coverage? Yes, it does. But, it doesn't help them bring down a running QB in space. At all. Also, when you go into nickel to stop 5 WR who are running clearouts it leaves the middle of the field open to spread teams who use the RB like an extra WR out of the backfield. Puts a lot of strain on a thin LB core. I'm really tired of hearing people bitch about Brooks Ellis. He's not what's wrong with the LB core. He and Dre need some help. If they were fresher they'd look a lot better out there.

If you run 5 wide, you don't have a RB out of the backfield, I'm guessing you mean split out like a WR. Anyway, one person we are missing that is seldom mentioned is Tevin Mitchel, he had the speed to match up at the nickel position. I thought Tolliver would step right in, but it's been a so-so journey.

[Youngsta71701]

Maybe losing Randy Shannon was bigger than we thought? What do you guys think?

It was. Some will never admit it but I believe he is very underrated defensive coach.

[Dan42AR]

Let me repeat. Top defensive Freshman in the SEC. Possible Freshman All American.  Special on ESPN as we speak. But you're the expert I suppose. You and Trey Biddy.

I agree that Dre has had a great year. But it sure would have been nice if we would not have had to use him as a true freshman. No I don't think I am an expert or anything but I would like to see our depth chart where a player as talented as Dre could afford to be redshirted.

[arlhog]

I agree that Dre has had a great year. But it sure would have been nice if we would not have had to use him as a true freshman. No I don't think I am an expert or anything but I would like to see our depth chart where a player as talented as Dre could afford to be redshirted.

You have a point, but if he is a special player he probably leaves after 3 years whether he redshirts or not.   So you might as well get as much out of him as you can.

[code red]

Maybe losing Randy Shannon was bigger than we thought? What do you guys think?

Yep

[scruf]

If you run 5 wide, you don't have a RB out of the backfield, I'm guessing you mean split out like a WR. Anyway, one person we are missing that is seldom mentioned is Tevin Mitchel, he had the speed to match up at the nickel position. I thought Tolliver would step right in, but it's been a so-so journey.

Yes and I agree about Tolliver. I think K-Rich is a better nickel and Henre' is more well suited to playing boundary or field. Also, I think Josh Liddell should move to WLB and Santos and Sykes should man the safety spots. Yes, I realize Santos was very inconsistent this year but he flashed enough for me to think he could be something special in the back 7.

[ricepig]

Yes and I agree about Tolliver. I think K-Rich is a better nickel and Henre' is more well suited to playing boundary or field.

Could be, he needs to shore up his tackling, but that can be said about everyone on the defense.

[Inhogswetrust]

Yep

Nope.

[scruf]

Could be, he needs to shore up his tackling, but that can be said about everyone on the defense.

Agree.

[code red]

This.  We need 2 Dre Greenlaws (S/LB types) and a quicker Brooks Ellis.  It's not a coincidence that we play well against Bama and LSU, then fold against the spread offenses.  Our back 7 isn't built to stop the spread right now, and it also makes the front 4 look like they aren't either.

Totally agree great analysis....our second level is not even close.

[89ALUM]

Arkansas has struggled with linebackers for 20+ years.  It's an Achilles heel for the program.

You know, this got me thinking.  I decided to do a little digging (granted I didn't go back past 2001, sorry for being lazy).

The following guys were all OUTSTANDING linebackers that really could have played for any team in America:

2001 - Jermaine Petty (Bengals)
2001 - Quinton Caver (Eagles)
2003 - Caleb Miller (Bengals)
2003 - Tony Bua (Dolphins)
2005 - Sam Olajabutu (Buccaneers)
2008-11 - Jerry Franklin (several NFL teams)

Clearly the early 2000's were pretty fruitful for the Arkansas linebacker corps, but with Petrino's lack of attention to that side of the ball we stopped producing the big names that Nutt brought to the Hogs.  I think Brooks and Dre will be fine in time and perhaps they will jump onto this list after their careers on the Hill are complete.

So IronHog can be forgiven for thinking we've been historically bad at the position, but I respectfully disagree that it has been an Achilles Heel.

PS - And if Freddie Fairchild had been able to fly straight, he might have been the best linebacker that ever played at Arkansas.  A million dollar talent but just couldn't overcome personal problems.