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Cold, Hard Facts About Our Defense

Started by bigdaddyhawg, November 22, 2015, 04:41:15 pm

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hogsanity

Quote from: Youngsta71701 on November 23, 2015, 09:32:23 am
To me the problem is all scheme. He should have realized after the Texas Tech game that you can't just let the receivers run around wherever they want to with no resistance. I'm not saying bump and run all game. But the defenders have to at least be in the same area code at the snap. At least no more than a 5 yard cushion. Especially with an accurate QB.

They run that scheme, I am guessing, because they cant cover man to man either, and they would rather try to keep the ball in front of them, which is fine unless you are whiffing tackles.
People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE

Steef

Quote from: hogsanity on November 23, 2015, 09:35:48 am
They run that scheme, I am guessing, because they cant cover man to man either, and they would rather try to keep the ball in front of them, which is fine unless you are whiffing tackles.

 

Aporkalypse Now

Quote from: hogsanity on November 23, 2015, 09:20:59 am
The key with lb's anymore is how they do in pass coverage. The hog lb's are pretty good against the run, but for whatever reason they can not pass cover in the middle of the field. That is not something unique to the Hogs either.

That is true, the spread offenses do put a LOT more pressure on your linebackers, which of course is the goal of the offense in the first place.

A couple things the Hogs specifically could do to improve against spread teams.

1. We need that guy who can quarterback the defense from the field. And be good at it.
2. We need a shut down corner someone who takes half the deep field away from a team 90% of the time, reliably.
3. We need a hard hitting safety who is fast enough to defend the short to medium passes that do burn linebacker coverage.

Our linebackers are not near as bad as some think they are. The just look that way because we put too much responsibility on them. They have to defend against the run of course, then they also know that if they do blow a play on a 10 yard pass, it's likely to go for 30 because the safeties are a mile away helping the DBs in coverage. Which results in them quite simply trying too hard, and playing not to make mistakes, rather than simply reacting on the field.

Good/great linebackers depend on instincts to be good great, but our linebackers can't gamble like that because we have too many holes behind them.

Plus of course they are young and may not even have the instincts yet.


JoeyCapital

Quote from: IronHog on November 23, 2015, 07:54:41 am

Defense changed momentum of the game with turnovers.  Offense gave it back with conservative play.



In the spread era TURNOVERS are far more important than stats.


Hog D won turnover battle and offense lost the game.  It's that simple.
Interesting take.

Hard for me to use the words defense and won in the same sentence after we give up 51.
What did you say? I missed it. Was distracted. My side piece was arguing with my side piece

Aporkalypse Now

Quote from: hogsanity on November 23, 2015, 09:35:48 am
They run that scheme, I am guessing, because they cant cover man to man either, and they would rather try to keep the ball in front of them, which is fine unless you are whiffing tackles.

One shut down corner solves that problem. If you have that one guy who you can say "we'll take our chances with their best receiver against OUR guy one on one all day long" then that really opens up what you can do on defense.


Aporkalypse Now

Quote from: golf2day on November 23, 2015, 09:38:21 am
Interesting take.

Hard for me to use the words defense and won in the same sentence after we give up 51.

Interesting , and WRONG. LULZ you score 40 + at home you're supposed to win, I don't care what offense the other guy is running, your defense failed you if you score 40+ at home and lose the game.



hogsanity

Quote from: Aporkalypse Now on November 23, 2015, 09:40:14 am
One shut down corner solves that problem. If you have that one guy who you can say "we'll take our chances with their best receiver against OUR guy one on one all day long" then that really opens up what you can do on defense.



Oh no doubt about that. That is why the best cb's in the nfl get paid HUGE money. They cut the field in half. They cut off the inside and just dare you to try to beat them deep.  Now, finding that guy is another thing entirely. 
People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE

Youngsta71701

Quote from: hogsanity on November 23, 2015, 09:35:48 am
They run that scheme, I am guessing, because they cant cover man to man either, and they would rather try to keep the ball in front of them, which is fine unless you are whiffing tackles.

True, and I think we might be able to tackle a little better if we are already closer to the receiver when he catches it instead of 10 yards away. I could be wrong though. Our angles and tackling is not good at all.
"The more things change the more they stay the same"

Aporkalypse Now

Quote from: hogsanity on November 23, 2015, 09:46:28 am
Oh no doubt about that. That is why the best cb's in the nfl get paid HUGE money. They cut the field in half. They cut off the inside and just dare you to try to beat them deep.  Now, finding that guy is another thing entirely.

I don't think a guy has to be a GREAT corner to be a shut down corner in college, he just has to be good and consistent.

Tevin Mitchell is the best example of this , he wasn't a superstar but very very reliable.


intelligence

Quote from: Aporkalypse Now on November 23, 2015, 09:40:14 am
One shut down corner solves that problem. If you have that one guy who you can say "we'll take our chances with their best receiver against OUR guy one on one all day long" then that really opens up what you can do on defense.

Never thought we'd miss ramon broadway and darius winston. those guys stuck to their man like flies on darn, and if they got beat the receiver worked for it.

Youngsta71701

November 23, 2015, 09:59:41 am #110 Last Edit: November 23, 2015, 10:15:27 am by Youngsta71701
Quote from: intelligence on November 23, 2015, 09:54:18 am
if they got beat the receiver worked for it.

This is all I'm saying. At least make the receiver work for it. Right now we're making it way to easy for them. At least make your presence felt and let them know your there!
"The more things change the more they stay the same"

Aporkalypse Now

Quote from: Youngsta71701 on November 23, 2015, 09:59:41 am
This is all I'm saying. At least make the receiver work for it. Right now we're making it was to easy for them. At least make your presence felt and let them know your there!

The point is right now we just don't have the talent to do so. Is the scheme perfect? No, but it is what it is for the talent we have. Of course any coach looks better when he doesn't have holes he's trying to hide.


Horthawg

Quote from: steefhog on November 23, 2015, 07:59:38 am
Chaney was OC.

You're thinking of Ash.
No, Chaney. I was just pointing out the similarities in arguing to keep/fire him. Lack of talent, experience, etc.
Once a Hog-ALWAYS A HOG!

 

ballz2thewall

well put, bdh.

it's difficult to really evaluate the secondary when the DL and LB corp are as they are [as you describe them]. a secondary of the best of the best will have a difficult task when the guys in front of them are lacking. stud lb's can make a so-so DL look much better, but the same doesn't really hold for the secondary.

when you face a stud qb like prescott, you've got to have badasses on the DL and a LB. a secondary is secondary.

when you get right down to it, the KEY to the defense is, obviously, the DL. everything else is subject to their play and ability.
The rest of the frog.

Aporkalypse Now

Quote from: ballz2thewall on November 23, 2015, 10:08:50 am
well put, bdh.

it's difficult to really evaluate the secondary when the DL and LB corp are as they are [as you describe them]. a secondary of the best of the best will have a difficult task when the guys in front of them are lacking. stud lb's can make a so-so DL look much better, but the same doesn't really hold for the secondary.

when you face a stud qb like prescott, you've got to have badasses on the DL and a LB. a secondary is secondary.

you are completely wrong. Our linebackers are better than our secondary, and look bad because they

A) Have no one on field making adjustments based on what the offense is doing
B) Play scared because they know if they get beat, it's going for big yards
C) Have no help because the safeties are always deep and not in position to help the linebackers

One very good reliable corner would solve two of those issues and make everyone look better.


Youngsta71701

Quote from: Aporkalypse Now on November 23, 2015, 10:03:46 am
The point is right now we just don't have the talent to do so. Is the scheme perfect? No, but it is what it is for the talent we have. Of course any coach looks better when he doesn't have holes he's trying to hide.

Do you realize we have the same corners we had last year minus Tevin Mitchell? And he mostly played the nickel. And do you realize we played a lot tighter in coverage last year than we are so far this year? Go back and watch last years games or film.
"The more things change the more they stay the same"

hogsanity

Quote from: Youngsta71701 on November 23, 2015, 10:18:03 am
Do you realize we have the same corners we had last year minus Tevin Mitchell? And he mostly played the nickel. And do you realize we played a lot tighter in coverage last year than we are so far this year? Go back and watch last years games or film.

That is like saying we have the same DL except for Philon and Flowers.

Last years D was made so much better by having 2 ends who could get to the QB in a hurry, and the Hogs also played the right teams at the right times the 2nd half of the season. Plus, Mitchell was a NFl draftee, so it was not like they lost a scrub.
People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE

Aporkalypse Now

Quote from: Youngsta71701 on November 23, 2015, 10:18:03 am
Do you realize we have the same corners we had last year minus Tevin Mitchell? And he mostly played the nickel. And do you realize we played a lot tighter in coverage last year than we are so far this year? Go back and watch last years games or film.

We had three guys off last year's defense drafted. There is your holes right there.

Put another way, do you think that if we still had those 3 guys we wold have given up 600 yard to MSU at home?


Aporkalypse Now

Quote from: hogsanity on November 23, 2015, 10:23:02 am
That is like saying we have the same DL except for Philon and Flowers.

Last years D was made so much better by having 2 ends who could get to the QB in a hurry, and the Hogs also played the right teams at the right times the 2nd half of the season. Plus, Mitchell was a NFl draftee, so it was not like they lost a scrub.

One looks at Mitchell's career numbers at Arkansas and sees he had 90 tackles, which tells you one of two things, either he didn't play much, or teams just tried to avoid him if they could. 

NFL teams don't tend to draft college players who didn't play much.

We miss him a lot.

Youngsta71701

Quote from: Aporkalypse Now on November 23, 2015, 10:24:42 am
We had three guys off last year's defense drafted. There is your holes right there.

Put another way, do you think that if we still had those 3 guys we wold have given up 600 yard to MSU at home?

To be honest no. But at the same time I think our tighter coverage helped those guys out also. Seems like we're just playing it way closer to the vest this year. Not being aggressive and taking any chances.
"The more things change the more they stay the same"

hogsanity

Quote from: Aporkalypse Now on November 23, 2015, 10:26:33 am
One looks at Mitchell's career numbers at Arkansas and sees he had 90 tackles, which tells you one of two things, either he didn't play much, or teams just tried to avoid him if they could. 

NFL teams don't tend to draft college players who didn't play much.

We miss him a lot.

Anytime one of your units is missing 4 guys who got drafted, you will see a fall off. Even happened at Bama and LSu when those great defenses they had lost players early to the draft. You may have good young talent behind them, but young talent still makes youthful mistakes. That's been the LSu problem this year, 4  or so times a game their defense just does something rock dumb.
People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE

Aporkalypse Now

Quote from: Youngsta71701 on November 23, 2015, 10:30:17 am
To be honest no. But at the same time I think our tighter coverage helped those guys out also. Seems like we're just playing it way closer to the vest this year. Not being aggressive and taking any chances.

It's not that we were playing tighter coverage last year, it's that we had A) Spaight as a leader out there calling out defensive plays to matchup to what the offense was doing and B) more overall talent out there so we could allow guys to play one on one which freed other guys up to do other things.

This year we just don't have the talent level to let anyone take chances. For instance, in the LSU game I was SHOCKED when we ran a corner blitz. If he had missed that tackle that was for sure a TD because someone was wide open, no way our safeties had the man our corner left covered. Notice we never ran a corner blitz against a team with a good mobile QB. That would be death for us.

We aren't Bama, or even LSU, we can't lose a couple guys to the NFL and just say "next" 


The biggest thing we need is that guy on the field diagnosing plays as they develop and putting guys into position accordingly. At times we look like the keystone cops on defense , and THAT is why our guys look slower than last year. Half the time they are in the wrong spot and so have to make up ground to make a play after the snap, rather than making a play ON the snap.


bigdaddyhawg

All you guys wanting bump and run coverage from our corners need to take a serious look at the size of our CB's.  Other than Tolliver they are not really the kind of physical corners you need to play that coverage.

Wishing it to be different doesn't change anything.

Robb Smith has to deal with the realities of his players, not the fantasies people can make up in their imagination.
Let us then turn this government back into the channel in which the framers of the Constitution originally placed it.  Abraham Lincoln, 1858

Steef

Quote from: Horthawg on November 23, 2015, 10:06:18 am
No, Chaney. I was just pointing out the similarities in arguing to keep/fire him. Lack of talent, experience, etc.

Ah. My bad. Carry on.

 

IronHog

Quote from: golf2day on November 23, 2015, 09:38:21 am
Interesting take.

Hard for me to use the words defense and won in the same sentence after we give up 51.



They forced turnovers and gave the offense short fields to turn the game around.

Offense had chance to put game away.  Failed.
Offense had chance to score at end.  Failed.



Defense is flawed but made enough plays and the offense sputtered in critical circumstances just like TT and Toledo.
Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another.

Aporkalypse Now

Quote from: IronHog on November 23, 2015, 10:56:59 am


They forced turnovers and gave the offense short fields to turn the game around.

Offense had chance to put game away.  Failed.
Offense had chance to score at end.  Failed.



Defense is flawed but made enough plays and the offense sputtered in critical circumstances just like TT and Toledo.

LULZ so your train of thought is "no matter how many points the offense scored up to that point, if they failed at the end of the game the loss is on them?"

That is EXACTLY how you don't think if you want to win big time football games. Especially at home.

You can't ask your offense to score 60 points every game, especially in the SEC. It isn't going to happen.

Youngsta71701

Quote from: IronHog on November 23, 2015, 10:56:59 am


They forced turnovers and gave the offense short fields to turn the game around.

Offense had chance to put game away.  Failed.
Offense had chance to score at end.  Failed.



Defense is flawed but made enough plays and the offense sputtered in critical circumstances just like TT and Toledo.

Are you serious! We scored 50 points and you want to blame the offense? We've been killed by the spread teams all year so it's obvious whatever we're doing on defense against those types of teams isn't working. Might as well try something different. We're giving up big plays anyway it goes.
"The more things change the more they stay the same"

Youngsta71701

Quote from: Aporkalypse Now on November 23, 2015, 11:04:17 am
LULZ so your train of thought is "no matter how many points the offense scored up to that point, if they failed at the end of the game the loss is on them?"

That is EXACTLY how you don't think if you want to win big time football games. Especially at home.

You can't ask your offense to score 60 points every game, especially in the SEC. It isn't going to happen.

Must be one of those BA gets the blame for everything people. ???
"The more things change the more they stay the same"

Steef

Quote from: IronHog on November 23, 2015, 10:56:59 am


They forced turnovers and gave the offense short fields to turn the game around.

Offense had chance to put game away.  Failed.
Offense had chance to score at end.  Failed.



Defense is flawed but made enough plays and the offense sputtered in critical circumstances just like TT and Toledo.

(sigh)

How many times did our defense force MSU to punt? (hint...once)

MSU offense had over 600 yards in that game. That doesn't sound like an Arkansas defensive victory to me.

Meantime, our offense had 500 yards of offense and scored 50 points. 50 freaking points!!

If you can't win a game with 50 points, there is something wrong with the defense, not the offense.

Sheesh.

Aporkalypse Now

Let me ask the opposite IronHog

Suppose we had played MSU and with one minute left the score was 7-3 Arkansas and MSU had the ball and they ground down and scored a TD with no time remaining to win 10-3. Would you blame that on the defense, or would you be asking why the hell the offense couldn't score more than 3 points and blame it on them?


bigdaddyhawg

Quote from: steefhog on November 23, 2015, 11:08:44 am
(sigh)

How many times did our defense force MSU to punt? (hint...once)

MSU offense had over 600 yards in that game. That doesn't sound like an Arkansas defensive victory to me.

Meantime, our offense had 500 yards of offense and scored 50 points. 50 freaking points!!

If you can't win a game with 50 points, there is something wrong with the defense, not the offense.

Sheesh.

Agreed. 

You shouldn't have to demand a perfect offensive performance to win a football game, and our offense with pretty freaking close to perfect and still it wasn't enough.

Actually, I felt like the T/O's we got and when they got sidetracked a little in the second half was more on them than it was on our D stopping them, although we did make a few plays in there, during that time.

And I don't ever want to portray our kids weren't busting their humps to get the job done, because they were giving great effort IMO. 
Let us then turn this government back into the channel in which the framers of the Constitution originally placed it.  Abraham Lincoln, 1858

code red

Quote from: HogInFlorida on November 22, 2015, 08:08:25 pm
You don't need SPEED to make a freaking tackle properly
Quote from: bigdaddyhawg on November 22, 2015, 04:41:15 pm
Coach Robb Smith is NOT the problem.  Deal with it.  The guy is a great DC.  He proved that last year.

The problem is he has some serious athletic deficiencies he is trying his best to work around.  They are:

1.  Serious limitations at LB.  We simply don't have the athletic talent (read SPEED) at LB to contain these spread teams that can also run the ball.  We have a young promising player in Dre Greenlaw who can fit the bill, but there's no one to play behind even Dre.  This deficiency was well-documented in the spring and again in fall camp.  Our LB's are solid against the run, but simply don't have the speed to cover the areas we need them to cover.

2.  We have no explosive, dynamic pass rushers.  Plain and simple.  Beanum and Wise, Jr. are solid, but simply aren't the explosive players we need them to be.  IMO our DL is very good against the run, but very poor rushing the passer.  Outside of LSU this has been obvious.  And, as everyone should understand, this creates serious problems in coverage as well.

3.  The play of our Safeties has been spotty, to poor, to horrendous.  Rohan has not produced nearly as we needed him to, and the others have not stepped up into any consistent performance.  Liddell and Santos are young.  Gaines does not have that excuse.  It's impossible to field a really good defense against the pass with the holes our Safeties are allowing.

4.  I believe our corners are very solid cover guys, but IMO they are not strong, physical corners, and, honestly, play very soft at times (soft as in not physical, not soft as in coverage).  They do much better against the quicker WR's, but due to their size and lack of physicality they are dominated by the more physical receivers, such as what MSU and OM put on the field.

5.  The bad news is all of these deficiencies add into one another in a very bad way right now in our pass defense.  Our weak pass rush allows QB's to have all the time their receivers need to find the gaps that will definitely be coming opening due to our limitations in LB speed and poor safety coverages/fits in coverages.

6.  This defense, while it has experience at certain positions, also lacks experience in other key position, i.e. safety, and that is a problem as well.

Sorry, but folks there is no quick fix for this list of problems.  Recruiting at LB especially, but across the board must improve if we're every going to be consistent on defense.

But, like it or not, Robb Smith is not the problem.  He's running around like the little Dutch boy, trying his best to plug the leaks as they spring up, only to have others open up out of his reach.

Last year he showed he could scheme a great defense even with a lack of overall talent, but he had one edge pass rusher, one inside pass rusher, one solid safety, and one fast LB who could cover a lot of ground in pass coverage.  CRS showed what he can do with just a small upgrade in talent at the right positions.

Let's hope this staff's recruiting can find us the men we need to fill those holes, and quickly.
Facts...are stats....numbers.....which paint a different picture.  When a defense is this bad...no one can give a creditable reason as to why.  Because there is just too many variables.
"If what you did yesterday seems big, you haven't done anything today."  Dr. Lou

IronHog

Quote from: steefhog on November 23, 2015, 11:08:44 am
(sigh)

How many times did our defense force MSU to punt? (hint...once)

MSU offense had over 600 yards in that game. That doesn't sound like an Arkansas defensive victory to me.

Meantime, our offense had 500 yards of offense and scored 50 points. 50 freaking points!!

If you can't win a game with 50 points, there is something wrong with the defense, not the offense.

Sheesh.



Scored how many points off turnovers?


Looking at scoreboard and blaming the defense without contex is simplistic.



Defense is flawed but did enough to win really.  Offense failed to seal the deal.



It ain't 1965.  In shootouts offense gotta get it done.
Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another.

Steef

By definition, a shootout means the defenses aren't effective.

Biggus Piggus

Quote from: IronHog on November 23, 2015, 01:01:19 pm
Defense is flawed but did enough to win really.  Offense failed to seal the deal.

I am beginning to believe that you are spoofing people. You cannot be serious about this.

Dak threw for 508 yards and five touchdowns. MSU also scored two TDs on the ground.

From 1:15 in the third quarter on, MSU ran 30 plays, gained 224 yards, and scored three touchdowns. Drives of 68, 74 and 82 yards.

The defense blew a 42-31 lead.
[CENSORED]!

Youngsta71701

Quote from: bigdaddyhawg on November 23, 2015, 11:20:46 am
Agreed. 

You shouldn't have to demand a perfect offensive performance to win a football game, and our offense with pretty freaking close to perfect and still it wasn't enough.

Actually, I felt like the T/O's we got and when they got sidetracked a little in the second half was more on them than it was on our D stopping them, although we did make a few plays in there, during that time.

And I don't ever want to portray our kids weren't busting their humps to get the job done, because they were giving great effort IMO.

The two fumble recoveries were legit but the interception was on a dropped pass by an open receiver. We can't keep depending on dropped passes or for dropped passed to turn into interceptions. Here are my descriptions for a good defense...

1. Force three and outs
2. Force punts instead of field goals and touchdowns
3. Force turnovers

We do...

4. None of the above
"The more things change the more they stay the same"

hogsanity

Quote from: Youngsta71701 on November 23, 2015, 01:16:51 pm
The two fumble recoveries were legit but the interception was on a dropped pass by an open receiver. We can't keep depending on dropped passes or for dropped passed to turn into interceptions. Here are my descriptions for a good defense...

1. Force three and outs
2. Force punts instead of field goals and touchdowns
3. Force turnovers

We do...

4. None of the above

We do none of the above against spread teams. We have forced plenty of non scoring drives ( either by punt or to or missed fg ) against "traditional" teams like LSU, Bama, even Aub and A&m. But the 3 teams that really spread it out and had the QB to do it, TT, MSu and om, the Hogs D could hardly get off the field.
People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE

IronHog

Quote from: Biggus Piggus on November 23, 2015, 01:13:01 pm
I am beginning to believe that you are spoofing people. You cannot be serious about this.

Dak threw for 508 yards and five touchdowns. MSU also scored two TDs on the ground.

From 1:15 in the third quarter on, MSU ran 30 plays, gained 224 yards, and scored three touchdowns. Drives of 68, 74 and 82 yards.

The defense blew a 42-31 lead.


BS


Defense was responsible for most of that lead.


Allen couldn't keep up with Presscot before the turnovers.


Offense couldn't close it out TWICE.



Hang your hat on the OL and you are an offensive football team.  They gotta score when it counts and not just put up numbers.
Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another.

hogsanity

Quote from: IronHog on November 23, 2015, 01:31:38 pm

BS


Defense was responsible for most of that lead.


Allen couldn't keep up with Presscot before the turnovers.


Offense couldn't close it out TWICE.



Hang your hat on the OL and you are an offensive football team.  They gotta score when it counts and not just put up numbers.

Yes, scoring 50 points is " just putting up numbers "................

Some of you cant stand 2 things. 1. That BB is making progress and 2. The Hogs do not ( and hopefully never do ) run the hunh spread tempo stuff.
People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE

IronHog

Quote from: hogsanity on November 23, 2015, 01:33:50 pm
Yes, scoring 50 points is " just putting up numbers "................

Some of you cant stand 2 things. 1. That BB is making progress and 2. The Hogs do not ( and hopefully never do ) run the hunh spread tempo stuff.

Want "good" defense hire the old OC back and start ground pounding


Wanna air it out you better score when it counts.  Asking the defense to bail out your offensive fails is losing football in 2015.
Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another.

LA Football fan

And if you kick the field goal then MSU is sitting there saying there is no way you should lose on the road scoring 51 points.  This argument goes both ways.  The fact is their "offense" overcame their defense.  Exactly what was being pointed out.  Your defense is going to have games where they just don't get it done.  When that happens your offense has to bail them out.  That is exactly what happened in the Ole Miss game.  Defense didn't get it done but the offense bailed them out.  That is what Texas Tech, Baylor, Okie State etc depend on.  They don't expect their defense to be perfect or anything near perfect.  They depend on lining up and just outscoring you.  Kinda of the Nolan principle in basketball.  Give me enough possessions and I will beat you.   

The offense actually did enough to win that game.  The blocked field goal was the difference.  I still think Robb has some serious learning to do on how to stop a 5 wide offense.  He needs to get with some DC's that have proven with their schemes that they can stop or at least slow down a 5 wide offense.  I think we really need to ditch the MLB position against 5 wide and put in another db that can man up the slot receiver and take away any hot routes. 

IronHog

42-31. Arkansas driving.


3rd and 2.  Stuffed.


Arm punt.




Momentum shifted and Miss St was able to make it a game.  Score there and it's over.  Offense FAIL.


We've seen that MANY times in the BB era.
Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another.

Kevin

i just cannot believe our defense can be worse by giving some back ups at lb & secondary, some snaps, so they don't have to play every play.

no way ellis can be effective playing every play. 

what is the difference if the score in 2 minutes or 3
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.<br />James 4:7
Reject Every Kind Of Evil 1 Thessalonians 5:22

Aporkalypse Now

Quote from: LA Football fan on November 23, 2015, 01:44:54 pm
And if you kick the field goal then MSU is sitting there saying there is no way you should lose on the road scoring 51 points.  This argument goes both ways.  The fact is their "offense" overcame their defense.  Exactly what was being pointed out.  Your defense is going to have games where they just don't get it done.  When that happens your offense has to bail them out.  That is exactly what happened in the Ole Miss game.  Defense didn't get it done but the offense bailed them out.  That is what Texas Tech, Baylor, Okie State etc depend on.  They don't expect their defense to be perfect or anything near perfect.  They depend on lining up and just outscoring you.  Kinda of the Nolan principle in basketball.  Give me enough possessions and I will beat you.   

The offense actually did enough to win that game.  The blocked field goal was the difference.  I still think Robb has some serious learning to do on how to stop a 5 wide offense.  He needs to get with some DC's that have proven with their schemes that they can stop or at least slow down a 5 wide offense.  I think we really need to ditch the MLB position against 5 wide and put in another db that can man up the slot receiver and take away any hot routes.

Correct, BOTH sides have to be capable of picking the other side up when they falter. So in a game at home, which side has faltered , the offense that scored 50+ or the defense that gave up 50+?

The only way you have a point is if look at the last series of the game in a vacuum. Football games aren't played in vacuums. They are played in reality. And the reality is if your offense scores 50 + at home that should be enough to win any game.


bigdaddyhawg

Quote from: IronHog on November 23, 2015, 01:57:34 pm
42-31. Arkansas driving.


3rd and 2.  Stuffed.


Arm punt.




Momentum shifted and Miss St was able to make it a game.  Score there and it's over.  Offense FAIL.


We've seen that MANY times in the BB era.

I do think there were a couple of points where the game turned, and this one you point out was one.  The other was the fourth down where we ran looked like a cluster frick.

So, yes, the offense had a hand in the loss as well, but as has been pointed out, 50 points should have been enough to win AT HOME.
Let us then turn this government back into the channel in which the framers of the Constitution originally placed it.  Abraham Lincoln, 1858

jkstock04

Quote from: hogsanity on November 23, 2015, 01:33:50 pm
Yes, scoring 50 points is " just putting up numbers "................

Some of you cant stand 2 things. 1. That BB is making progress and 2. The Hogs do not ( and hopefully never do ) run the hunh spread tempo stuff.
You are the one that's gotta despise what the Hogs have become...forever you have been an opponent against high scoring/poor defensive play.

Well...guess what? That's pretty much what we have right now. Supposedly this is the opposite of what we would see under Bielema...interesting how this has evolved.
Thanks for the F Shack. 

Love,

Dirty Mike and the Boys

bigdaddyhawg

Quote from: jkstock04 on November 23, 2015, 02:05:29 pm
You are the one that's gotta despise what the Hogs have become...forever you have been an opponent against high scoring/poor defensive play.

Well...guess what? That's pretty much what we have right now. Supposedly this is the opposite of what we would see under Bielema...interesting how this has evolved.

Saying it's "evolved" to this point is erroneous.  It's where we're at now, but it's not where we're going to end up.

Let us then turn this government back into the channel in which the framers of the Constitution originally placed it.  Abraham Lincoln, 1858

IronHog

Quote from: bigdaddyhawg on November 23, 2015, 02:03:20 pm
I do think there were a couple of points where the game turned, and this one you point out was one.  The other was the fourth down where we ran looked like a cluster frick.

So, yes, the offense had a hand in the loss as well, but as has been pointed out, 50 points should have been enough to win AT HOME.



Offense scored 50 with a ton of help from forced turnovers.


I don't care how many points or yards.  When the offense has the chance to go for the jugular and fails that is on them in modern football.


It's an offenses game now.
Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another.

Aporkalypse Now

Quote from: bigdaddyhawg on November 23, 2015, 02:03:20 pm
I do think there were a couple of points where the game turned, and this one you point out was one.  The other was the fourth down where we ran looked like a cluster frick.

So, yes, the offense had a hand in the loss as well, but as has been pointed out, 50 points should have been enough to win AT HOME.

Correct, on the road is a different story, on the road if you get into a shootout it's on your offense to take the crowd out of the game and turn momentum by scoring as many points as possible. I mean ideally you don't want to get into a shootout on the road, but stuff happens.


MountieDawg

Quote from: bigdaddyhawg on November 22, 2015, 04:41:15 pm
Coach Robb Smith is NOT the problem.  Deal with it.  The guy is a great DC.  He proved that last year.

The problem is he has some serious athletic deficiencies he is trying his best to work around.  They are:

1.  Serious limitations at LB.  We simply don't have the athletic talent (read SPEED) at LB to contain these spread teams that can also run the ball.  We have a young promising player in Dre Greenlaw who can fit the bill, but there's no one to play behind even Dre.  This deficiency was well-documented in the spring and again in fall camp.  Our LB's are solid against the run, but simply don't have the speed to cover the areas we need them to cover.

2.  We have no explosive, dynamic pass rushers.  Plain and simple.  Beanum and Wise, Jr. are solid, but simply aren't the explosive players we need them to be.  IMO our DL is very good against the run, but very poor rushing the passer.  Outside of LSU this has been obvious.  And, as everyone should understand, this creates serious problems in coverage as well.

3.  The play of our Safeties has been spotty, to poor, to horrendous.  Rohan has not produced nearly as we needed him to, and the others have not stepped up into any consistent performance.  Liddell and Santos are young.  Gaines does not have that excuse.  It's impossible to field a really good defense against the pass with the holes our Safeties are allowing.

4.  I believe our corners are very solid cover guys, but IMO they are not strong, physical corners, and, honestly, play very soft at times (soft as in not physical, not soft as in coverage).  They do much better against the quicker WR's, but due to their size and lack of physicality they are dominated by the more physical receivers, such as what MSU and OM put on the field.

5.  The bad news is all of these deficiencies add into one another in a very bad way right now in our pass defense.  Our weak pass rush allows QB's to have all the time their receivers need to find the gaps that will definitely be coming opening due to our limitations in LB speed and poor safety coverages/fits in coverages.

6.  This defense, while it has experience at certain positions, also lacks experience in other key position, i.e. safety, and that is a problem as well.

Sorry, but folks there is no quick fix for this list of problems.  Recruiting at LB especially, but across the board must improve if we're every going to be consistent on defense.

But, like it or not, Robb Smith is not the problem.  He's running around like the little Dutch boy, trying his best to plug the leaks as they spring up, only to have others open up out of his reach.

Last year he showed he could scheme a great defense even with a lack of overall talent, but he had one edge pass rusher, one inside pass rusher, one solid safety, and one fast LB who could cover a lot of ground in pass coverage.  CRS showed what he can do with just a small upgrade in talent at the right positions.

Let's hope this staff's recruiting can find us the men we need to fill those holes, and quickly.

Last year he got all the credit with the great Robb Smith defense and got extra cash.  This year its the players fault everyone that knows how to throw the forward pass is putting up 50 points.  If it is the players, who is responsible for recruiting them?

I am not saying its Robb Smith's fault but Arkansas is the only place in the world that gives the coaches credit win you win and the players the blame when you lose. I was told growing up, the players win the games and the coaches lose them.
SEC!