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History repeating itself

Started by Piggfoot, December 11, 2017, 08:01:33 pm

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Piggfoot

CCM has hit the ground running and it looks like he is going to bring some Arkansas kids to The Hill. Some of these appear to be good players. The puzzling thing is what was Bielema's staff doing. In particular what was Lunney doing? Was he on some of these kids and voted down by Bielema, Enos and Rhodes or were their schemes not attractive to the boys?
Fitz Hill alluded to the question today on DTS. I didn't hear it all but basically he mentioned good speedy players Bielema missed on that went on to neighboring schools and have done well.
Arkansas is a producer of good skill players. Nutt was about to miss out on several who flipped back to Arkansas when Petrino came. There is no doubt Petrino had a good offensive mind and was a perfectionist. Apparently that attention to detail was lost with Bielema but actually I'm hoping someone can provide some insite as to the problem.
Hog fan since 1960. So thankful for Sam Pittman.

devildoghawg

Winning 4 games in year 5 probably isn't too appealing to any major recruits, regardless if they are from Arkansas.
Quote from: kingofdequeen on July 25, 2013, 06:21:48 pm
If you've got a dumba** son, do you love him any less?  no.  you just overlook his faults b/c you love him.  At least that's what my dad does.

 

Wild Bill Hog

Quote from: devildoghawg on December 11, 2017, 08:07:49 pm
Winning 4 games in year 5 probably isn't too appealing to any major recruits, regardless if they are from Arkansas.

Certainly couldn't help.

FANONTHEHILL

It all comes back around to recruiting skill position players to your scheme.  The best players in Arkansas aren't playing I-formation, straight downhill football.  Combine that with the last few years of "we will line up and run straight at you" and it hurt in state recruiting.  Tough to convince a Four Star receiver to come to the Hill so they can run block 80% of the time.  I know that number is exaggerated, but that's how other schools have been negative recruiting against Arkansas.
Favorite quote from practice.  Made to my son:<br /><br /><br />Technique is nice, but it comes down to this.  Block the F'er in front of you. - Sam Pittman 2015

Hawgey-Davidson

Quote from: FANONTHEHILL on December 11, 2017, 08:14:43 pm
It all comes back around to recruiting skill position players to your scheme.  The best players in Arkansas aren't playing I-formation, straight downhill football.  Combine that with the last few years of "we will line up and run straight at you" and it hurt in state recruiting.  Tough to convince a Four Star receiver to come to the Hill so they can run block 80% of the time.  I know that number is exaggerated, but that's how other schools have been negative recruiting against Arkansas.
Totally agree. Good to hear from you FOTH.

Hogindasticks

Just goes to show you how  you can interact with a fan base with Social media and prove that your doing your job.....something for other coaches to think about.

livevanguy

Quote from: FANONTHEHILL on December 11, 2017, 08:14:43 pm
It all comes back around to recruiting skill position players to your scheme.  The best players in Arkansas aren't playing I-formation, straight downhill football.  Combine that with the last few years of "we will line up and run straight at you" and it hurt in state recruiting.  Tough to convince a Four Star receiver to come to the Hill so they can run block 80% of the time.  I know that number is exaggerated, but that's how other schools have been negative recruiting against Arkansas.
I don't know what the actual number of run-blocks was, but I think you are on the money with the notion. The last WR that I felt was recruited for a pass-heavy offense was Keon Hatcher. I think he only stuck around because it was getting late in his collegiate career to start at a new program. (This isn't to say that other WR after him weren't good, just recruited for a different type of playing.)
Call'n the hogs from the Pacific Northwest

clutch

Quote from: livevanguy on December 11, 2017, 08:47:42 pm
I don't know what the actual number of run-blocks was, but I think you are on the money with the notion. The last WR that I felt was recruited for a pass-heavy offense was Keon Hatcher. I think he only stuck around because it was getting late in his collegiate career to start at a new program. (This isn't to say that other WR after him weren't good, just recruited for a different type of playing.)

The actual number was extremely close to 50/50.

StanHog

Quote from: FANONTHEHILL on December 11, 2017, 08:14:43 pm
It all comes back around to recruiting skill position players to your scheme.  The best players in Arkansas aren't playing I-formation, straight downhill football.  Combine that with the last few years of "we will line up and run straight at you" and it hurt in state recruiting.  Tough to convince a Four Star receiver to come to the Hill so they can run block 80% of the time.  I know that number is exaggerated, but that's how other schools have been negative recruiting against Arkansas.
"Straight Uphill Football"

redeye

There is no problem, imo.  It happens every time there's a new coach.

BigE_23

Quote from: FANONTHEHILL on December 11, 2017, 08:14:43 pm
It all comes back around to recruiting skill position players to your scheme.  The best players in Arkansas aren't playing I-formation, straight downhill football.  Combine that with the last few years of "we will line up and run straight at you" and it hurt in state recruiting.  Tough to convince a Four Star receiver to come to the Hill so they can run block 80% of the time.  I know that number is exaggerated, but that's how other schools have been negative recruiting against Arkansas.

This times a million...and it's one of the many reasons why the Bielema hire was such a bad one, and also why it appears that the CCM hire could be a good one.

MuskogeeHogFan

Quote from: FANONTHEHILL on December 11, 2017, 08:14:43 pm
It all comes back around to recruiting skill position players to your scheme.  The best players in Arkansas aren't playing I-formation, straight downhill football.  Combine that with the last few years of "we will line up and run straight at you" and it hurt in state recruiting.  Tough to convince a Four Star receiver to come to the Hill so they can run block 80% of the time.  I know that number is exaggerated, but that's how other schools have been negative recruiting against Arkansas.

Here is what we are likely to see from our new HC in terms of philosophy based on his 3rd year at Clemson and his 3rd year at SMU.

                             Clemson           SMU
% of Run Plays           54.4              49.6
Run Plays P/Gm           41.5              37.1
% of Pass Plays          45.6              50.4
Pass Plays P/Gm         34.7              37.8
% of Rush Yards         35.9              37.6
Rush Yards P/Gm        146.5            185.8
% of Pass Yards          64.1              62.4
Pass Yards P/Gm         261.8            308.0
Total Off Yards/Gm      408.3            493.8
Go Hogs Go!

Nashville Fan

Dual threat QBs and RPO s make % run/pass meaningless. Essentially both plays are called and depends on the defense which play is actually ran. At least with this type of offense a pass could be thrown every play. With the previous offense the %s tell the whole story... as do sacks and tackles for losses.
Pittman or Bust!

 

Boss Hog in the Arkansas

One recruit (Bishop) said he committed to Mississippi State because of relationships with coaches. Basically he had better relationships with dan mullens staff than bielemas staff, even though that was supposed to be bielemas forte
That's right, you don't want to be the man to replace the man.  You want to be the man to replace Rory Segrest.

6jworks9

Quote from: MuskogeeHogFan on December 12, 2017, 05:11:53 am
Here is what we are likely to see from our new HC in terms of philosophy based on his 3rd year at Clemson and his 3rd year at SMU.

                             Clemson           SMU
% of Run Plays           54.4              49.6
Run Plays P/Gm           41.5              37.1
% of Pass Plays          45.6              50.4
Pass Plays P/Gm         34.7              37.8
% of Rush Yards         35.9              37.6
Rush Yards P/Gm        146.5            185.8
% of Pass Yards          64.1              62.4
Pass Yards P/Gm         261.8            308.0
Total Off Yards/Gm      408.3            493.8

This is impressive for sure. I will give CCM three years to get The Razorbacks to this point! Whoo Pig Sooie!

rljjr

Quote from: FANONTHEHILL on December 11, 2017, 08:14:43 pm
It all comes back around to recruiting skill position players to your scheme.  The best players in Arkansas aren't playing I-formation, straight downhill football.  Combine that with the last few years of "we will line up and run straight at you" and it hurt in state recruiting.  Tough to convince a Four Star receiver to come to the Hill so they can run block 80% of the time.  I know that number is exaggerated, but that's how other schools have been negative recruiting against Arkansas.

Hey FOTH ... knowing the players, do you believe the current crop will be able to block the Morris system, or are we now looking for a different type of O lineman?

FANONTHEHILL

Quote from: MuskogeeHogFan on December 12, 2017, 05:11:53 am
Here is what we are likely to see from our new HC in terms of philosophy based on his 3rd year at Clemson and his 3rd year at SMU.

                             Clemson           SMU
% of Run Plays           54.4              49.6
Run Plays P/Gm           41.5              37.1
% of Pass Plays          45.6              50.4
Pass Plays P/Gm         34.7              37.8
% of Rush Yards         35.9              37.6
Rush Yards P/Gm        146.5            185.8
% of Pass Yards          64.1              62.4
Pass Yards P/Gm         261.8            308.0
Total Off Yards/Gm      408.3            493.8

Thanks for sharing the numbers.   This really shows how Coach Morris can market the program to receivers as well at RBs.  75 plays a game at SMU with equal run/pass ratio.  Playmakers want the ball in their hands and there will be lots of opportunities for everyone. It's not just the old Houston Cougar Run and Shoot, there's lots of power run game.  Motion, shifts, and widening the field open up that run game.  For someone who has been frustrated with tight formations and running straight ahead, this offense will be a lot of fun to watch.
Favorite quote from practice.  Made to my son:<br /><br /><br />Technique is nice, but it comes down to this.  Block the F'er in front of you. - Sam Pittman 2015

MuskogeeHogFan

Quote from: 6jworks9 on December 12, 2017, 07:03:45 am
This is impressive for sure. I will give CCM three years to get The Razorbacks to this point! Whoo Pig Sooie!

That 408 yds p/game on offense would be a whole lot less impressive at Clemson if he didn't have the #1 defense in the country backing him up that year allowing just 261 yards p/game.
Go Hogs Go!

redleg

Quote from: Nashville Fan on December 12, 2017, 06:47:27 am
Dual threat QBs and RPO s make % run/pass meaningless. Essentially both plays are called and depends on the defense which play is actually ran. At least with this type of offense a pass could be thrown every play. With the previous offense the %s tell the whole story... as do sacks and tackles for losses.
But looking at SMU's stat sheet from 2017, the Mustangs starting QB finished the season with less than 80 yards rushing and only 1 rushing TD. He, himself, did not run very much at all. He distributed the ball to his playmakers via the pass or handoffs. I know Deshaun Watson was a dual-threat QB at Clemson that Morris recruited and coached, but on Morris' own team as head coach, his QB did not run much and is not considered a dual-threat guy. That tells me that a QB that can run in a Morris offense is just a bonus, but not a necessity.
Cole Kelley will do very well in Morris' system, he just needs to learn the new offense, and work on accuracy and footwork. ---and Kelley CAN run!
If it ain't broke, fix it till it is.

12247

I am not so sure Kelley can run this offense to its best production.  Time will tell but I am very doubtful.

12247

If I was a coach facing our schedule and using our players and wanting to operate my scheme, I would try and have two throwers in the backfield on nearly every play.  Kelly might be my alternate QB by setting up to go in motion and either run or throw.  We are not going to run over most of the teams we face nor are we going to throw at will.  Surprise will be our best friend.  Make every defense cover every player on every down.  Thin their defense down and try and get your few playmakers on their weakest defenders and then pray.

FANONTHEHILL

December 12, 2017, 09:03:07 am #21 Last Edit: December 12, 2017, 09:14:28 am by FANONTHEHILL
Quote from: rljjr on December 12, 2017, 07:05:43 am
Hey FOTH ... knowing the players, do you believe the current crop will be able to block the Morris system, or are we now looking for a different type of O lineman?

The team is more built to this system than what they were running.  There had been an emphasis on mobility and the expectation was more spread, screens, draws, etc.  Tretola and Kirkland at 350lbs we're gone, but the philosophy didn't change.  Never made sense and didn't  there is an entirely new staff as a result.  Wallace, Jackson, Froholdt, and Heinrich will thrive.  Gibson will probably slim up a bit, but he's very athletic, even at 330.  What will be amazing to see is the guys that came on board last year.  The redshirts, Clenin, Adcock, and Wagner and the one who should have redshirted, Clary.  These guys are all in that 300 range and athletic. They will be a great group. SMU started one player on the OL heavier than 300.  I don't think you'll want that across the board in the SEC, but ou May see a rotation of guys in the 290-310 range rotating in.  The biggest factors will be line splits being wider and the ball being outbquicker.  Playing in space without play action from under Center andsliwndevelopung okays are every lineman's best friend.
Favorite quote from practice.  Made to my son:<br /><br /><br />Technique is nice, but it comes down to this.  Block the F'er in front of you. - Sam Pittman 2015

DeltaBoy

I hope so we need to get back to winning.
If the South should lose, it means that the history of the heroic struggle will be written by the enemy, that our youth will be trained by Northern school teachers, will be impressed by all of the influences of history and education to regard our gallant dead as traitors and our maimed veterans as fit subjects for derision.
-- Major General Patrick Cleburne
The Confederacy had no better soldiers
than the Arkansans--fearless, brave, and oftentimes courageous beyond
prudence. Dickart History of Kershaws Brigade.

OnYourToes

When I read the title of the thread, I immediately thought of Coach Petrino's initial recruiting blitz and how he got Joe Adams to flip to us.

I really hope this happens again, and history does in fact repeat itself. 

Coach Morris needs his guys to run his system, if they are already on campus or not. 
If we can get some skill players in as new recruits, they may be able to push the current players harder and faster to make everyone better; that's what I'm looking for.  Not necessarily that all freshmen come in a play right away, but that the entire team gets better by being pushed, worked, held accountable, and in so doing, adapts Coach Morris' system.

Quote from: Fresh Legs on September 22, 2006, 09:56:48 am
Quote from: OnYourToes on September 22, 2006, 09:48:23 am
The wife's b-day was this past Tuesday, I got her a gift certifiacte for a message, she is going to redeem it Saturday, around 2:35ish.  I had it planned all along.  House to myself, game on, free to yell as loud as I can!!!!!

You sir are a genius!

 

Tejano Jawg

Quote from: OnYourToes on December 12, 2017, 12:52:35 pm
When I read the title of the thread, I immediately thought of Coach Petrino's initial recruiting blitz and how he got Joe Adams to flip to us.

This was the first thing I thought as well. All those receivers coming, including keeping Joe from going to USC.

This would be a real energizer for us—recruiting a solid class, but also having a few notable surprises, like Joe. Or, like one of Bielema's first scores, having Alex Collins announce on national TV he was coming to Arkansas.
Between McAfee being obnoxious and Corso decomposing before our eyes I can't even watch GameDay anymore. —Torqued Pork

djgaffer

Quote from: 12247 on December 12, 2017, 08:22:48 am
I am not so sure Kelley can run this offense to its best production.  Time will tell but I am very doubtful.

Been hearing this a lot, and a lot point to a lack of mobility.  While CCM would love to have a dual threat like Watson, he doesn't require it.  SMU's QB this year ran for 79 yards, on the season.  Cole ran for 73 in his limited time. 

When you add "to its best production"... Sure Cole might not be the best QB in America... but he can be the guy until we find that guy... system fit won't be the defining issue. 

JONAS

Maybe history will repeat itself.  CCM reminds me of HDN.  Hopefully, we will start 8-0 next year.  That would be nice.

Freebrd

Quote from: MuskogeeHogFan on December 12, 2017, 07:11:37 am
That 408 yds p/game on offense would be a whole lot less impressive at Clemson if he didn't have the #1 defense in the country backing him up that year allowing just 261 yards p/game.



And I think the offense numbers will be closer to the the one's at Clemson considering the ACC vs AAC and SEC

The NewEra

Under CCM's system opposing SEC teams won't be able to stack the box on us and blitz nearly every down as they did in the past without paying a severe price.  Spreading the opponents D-Line out will also allow us to break more long runs.  This system will also target mismatches on the TE's against Safeties and LB's. 

Cole Kelley might do extremely well in this system.  The Wild Hog will also be used a lot if my guess is accurate, with playmakers such as Chase Hayden and T.J. Hammonds, not to mention what Freshmen might be coming in. 

As FOTH mentioned above there are several linemen who will fit this system well, but in particular I think Froholdt will shine.

Morris is a stickler for details so expect a very precise, crisp offense, at least over time.  Bielema was a micro manager in my opinion, but not a real detail oriented offensive or defensive mind.

There is a lot more talent on this team than people have given credit and I think under a coach that's willing to put players in a position to win we will see just how mismanaged the players were, on both side of the ball.  Defensively, Agim has been double and even triple teamed at times.  Expect the new coordinator to put him in a position to make plays.  That's just one spot on the defense that I think we'll see a major difference.

OneTuskOverTheLine™

Quote from: 12247 on December 12, 2017, 08:22:48 am
I am not so sure Kelley can run this offense to its best production.  Time will tell but I am very doubtful.

One of two things your statement proves to me..
1.) You either did not watch Cole Kelley's High School highlights I posted on here like 13 times...  OR
2.) You don't know dick about offense...
Quote from: capehog on March 12, 2010...
My ex wife had a pet monkey I used to play with. That was one of the few things I liked about her

quote from: golf2day on June 19, 2014....
I'm disgusted, but kinda excited. Now I'm disgusted that I'm excited.

BoynamedWooPigSooie

Quote from: Tejano Jawg on December 12, 2017, 01:02:36 pm
Or, like one of Bielema's first scores, having Alex Collins announce on national TV he was coming to Arkansas.

If you remember that wasn't exactly a shining moment for Arkansas, especially with the national media.
Hogville's resident uniform designer.

buldozer

The arkansas kids didn't come to our program because of CBB period. Half of the kids that didn't come didn't want to play in his antiquated system and he didn't want the other half.... so now CCM comes in and all that changes, or so it seems to date. Arkansas doesn't produce very many D1 players but the ones that it does produce have a ton of home pride and tend to play way over their ability for the hogs IMO. You can't get that factor from most kids that come from outside AR. So I hope he keeps the emphasis on recruiting the in-state kids to the extent possible.

In order to be successful here you have to pick up a few blue chip recruits from outside the state to compensate for the low number of in-state players available. To me it seems a 3 star in-state recruit is roughly equal to a 4 star recruited outside the state. It sure seems like most of the lower rated recruits from outside of AR fail to produce. 

Thus the concern with all the 3 star Texas recruits CCM is pursuing.... most of those will likely turn out to be less than the quality of performers required to compete in the SEC W.

MuskogeeHogFan

Quote from: 12247 on December 12, 2017, 08:22:48 am
I am not so sure Kelley can run this offense to its best production.  Time will tell but I am very doubtful.

That's the misconception. In Morris' last year at Clemson his QB's ran for 283 yards in 13 games, 21.8 yards p/gm. In Morris' last season at SMU his QB's in 12 games ran for a net 45 yards. The RB's carry the load in a Chad Morris offense. Even the WR's at SMU rarely carried the ball in a rushing play, 16 times in 12 games for 39 net yards. So could Cole Kelley run this offense? Based on Morris' history, I don't see why not?
Go Hogs Go!

Bacons Rebellion

Quote from: livevanguy on December 11, 2017, 08:47:42 pm
I don't know what the actual number of run-blocks was, but I think you are on the money with the notion. The last WR that I felt was recruited for a pass-heavy offense was Keon Hatcher. I think he only stuck around because it was getting late in his collegiate career to start at a new program. (This isn't to say that other WR after him weren't good, just recruited for a different type of playing.)

And, ironically, Keon Hatcher was possibly the best blocker on the team his last two seasons, certainly per pound. He laid folks out.

Bacons Rebellion

Quote from: MuskogeeHogFan on December 13, 2017, 05:54:24 am
That's the misconception. In Morris' last year at Clemson his QB's ran for 283 yards in 13 games, 21.8 yards p/gm. In Morris' last season at SMU his QB's in 12 games ran for a net 45 yards. The RB's carry the load in a Chad Morris offense. Even the WR's at SMU rarely carried the ball in a rushing play, 16 times in 12 games for 39 net yards. So could Cole Kelley run this offense? Based on Morris' history, I don't see why not?

I think he can. Defensively, you have to honor his run threat and that's the most important thing. He's not going to break an 80 yard run, but if you ignore him on the read option, he'll pick up his 7 yards. Morris would tune the offense around that. I remain somewhat concerned about Kelly's passing accuracy, though.

That said, I remind that Dalton Hyatt is on campus and in the mix.

blu

People were concerned about BA's accuracy his first year as a starter (49% or so if I recall). Cole's accuracy should improve as he gets more reps.
"But it is no shame to suffer for being a Christian. Praise God for the privilege of being called by His name!"  I Peter 4:16

code red

I don't think Bret and Co. tried real hard in recruiting last season.  The holes he had to try to patch was overwhelming.  So funny.  Recruiting all that character and most of it never saw the field.
"If what you did yesterday seems big, you haven't done anything today."  Dr. Lou

sigpooie

Kelleys caan do it,  he not will sux. Rob...
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride! Hunter "my buddy" Thompson

MuskogeeHogFan

Quote from: blu on December 13, 2017, 07:38:47 am
People were concerned about BA's accuracy his first year as a starter (49% or so if I recall). Cole's accuracy should improve as he gets more reps.

Kelley would do fine in the Morris offense. They ill work with him and he will get to throw even more than before.
Go Hogs Go!

rmcchris

We need the kid from Earl.  He will be a difference maker at QB in this offense.  Nothing against the GW kid, as he is very good, but the kid from Earl will be better.  He is a key "flip" as he lists us but had really written us off.