A lot of y'all say we need to recruit better

[S.A.D.C]

thefisher pretty much said it all but look at how we rank nationally. 

Here is the number of 4 and 5* athletes from the 247sports composite by state for the last 5 years...
Arkansas ranks 22.  Every SEC state except for Missouri is ahead of us.  Add to the fact that many of these states have multiple P5 schools in them competing for these kids and you end up with very few "left overs" to go get. 

The facts are the facts. 

Obviously: the best way to improve recruiting is to build pipelines to states like Florida, Texas, Louisiana...  Good luck doing that AND changing coaches every 4 years. It seems that often the same people on here complaining about recruiting want the coach to turn the ship around in 3 or 4 years or else fire him.  You can expand your recruiting base or you can change coaches every 4 years- probably can't do both.    Those type of relationships and pipelines take time to develop. 

This is the primary reason why I believe any Arkansas coach deserves more time than 3 or 4 years to make their mark on this program.  I am not happy with what we are seeing right now... but this job requires some patience- more patience than any other job in the SECW (except for maybe Mizzou and Vandy).

http://www.sbnation.com/college-football-recruiting/2016/6/28/12040586/rankings-state-stars-florida-texas-california

[elviscat]

Ole Piss, is beating us because they are paying to play, if we played by the same standard and cheated then we would get the same results. We have deeper pockets than they do but we are not pony up for the players. Dick Satan, just pulls out his national championship rings and say boy do you want one of these and then show them the Bama wall with all the players playing in the NFL and the money they are making, at that point it's over. They get the kids they want, we can't compete against that.

[S.A.D.C]

Ole Piss, is beating us because they are paying to play, if we played by the same standard and cheated then we would get the same results. We have deeper pockets than they do but we are not pony up for the players. Dick Satan, just pulls out his national championship rings and say boy do you want one of these and then show them the Bama wall with all the players playing in the NFL and the money they are making, at that point it's over. They get the kids they want, we can't compete against that.

You're still not understanding the data you have been presented.  It's not that simple.

[thefisher]

Ole Piss, is beating us because they are paying to play, if we played by the same standard and cheated then we would get the same results. We have deeper pockets than they do but we are not pony up for the players. Dick Satan, just pulls out his national championship rings and say boy do you want one of these and then show them the Bama wall with all the players playing in the NFL and the money they are making, at that point it's over. They get the kids they want, we can't compete against that.

Reread the data.  It is unmistakable unless a person wants to remain in the dark or is just trolling.

The Mississippi schools are not retaining their in state 4-5 star players at a higher percentage than Arkansas.  They just have a much larger number (TRIPLE THE NUMBER)of them. Therefor getting more 4-5 star players than Arkansas is no problem for them. They have triple the number of 4-5 stars living within a few hours of their stadium.

If the state of Arkansas was producing three times as many 4-5 star football players then Arkansas recruiting numbers would be up there as well.

[root_hawg]

Bama has a commitment from a 4 star kid this year from Fayetteville

[ricepig]

Bama has a commitment from a 4 star kid this year from Fayetteville

Who won't qualify academically.

[26.2Hog]

Our classes are usually top 15-20, out of 125+ fbs schools, yet that is usually only 7th or 8th in the SEC.

During Beliema's tenure, we have no classes in the top 15-20 nationally, and no classes ranked as high as 7th or 8th in the SEC.

Using 247Sports, which is a composite of the ranking services, this is what we've done:

           
2014   11th-SEC   29th-nationally
2015   11th-SEC   23rd-nationally
2016     9th-SEC   22nd-nationally
2017   10th-SEC  26th-nationally  (2017 can obviously change)

[woodhog14]

Bama has a commitment from a 4 star kid this year from Fayetteville

No kidding. Our coaches are fully aware of that kid.That has been discussed over and over and over and over on this board. The kid knows why we won't offer, and he won't be going to Bama because he won't qualify academically.

[thefisher]

During Beliema's tenure, we have no classes in the top 15-20 nationally, and no classes ranked as high as 7th or 8th in the SEC.

Using 247Sports, which is a composite of the ranking services, this is what we've done:

           
2014   11th-SEC   29th-nationally
2015   11th-SEC   23rd-nationally
2016     9th-SEC   22nd-nationally
2017   10th-SEC  26th-nationally  (2017 can obviously change)

Well.... no kidding! During NO ONES tenure do we have a top 20 class nationally!  Not CBB, CBP, or Nutt.

Just to keep the spotlight accurately pointed lets expand out your data -

2017  - yet to be determined
2016     9th in SEC     22nd  Nationally
2015   11th in SEC     23rd  Nationally
2014   11th in SEC     29th  Nationally
2013     9th in SEC     23rd  Nationally
2012   10th in SEC     28th  Nationally
2011     9th in SEC     21st  Nationally
2010   10th in SEC     41st  Nationally
2009     9th in SEC     21st  Nationally
2008     6th in SEC     27th  Nationally
2007   10th in SEC     38th  Nationally
2006     7th in SEC     25th  Nationally
2005     8th in SEC     28th  Nationally
2004     5th in SEC     24th  Nationally
2003    10th in SEC    42nd Nationally
2002      9th in SEC    25th  Nationally

You can see a clear recruiting  improvement under CBB. Three of his first four classes cracked the top 25. That is the first time that has ever happened. In addition he currently has back to back top 25 classes. Again, the first time that has happened in modern history.

CBB is making slightly better overall recruiting ratings than any coach in recent times. However, it is clear that the demographic and geographic limitations of the U of A make crashing through the next level of consistent top 15 or so very, very difficult regardless of the coach. None of them ever cracked it as of yet.

[woodhog14]

During Beliema's tenure, we have no classes in the top 15-20 nationally, and no classes ranked as high as 7th or 8th in the SEC.

Using 247Sports, which is a composite of the ranking services, this is what we've done:

           
2014   11th-SEC   29th-nationally
2015   11th-SEC   23rd-nationally
2016     9th-SEC   22nd-nationally
2017   10th-SEC  26th-nationally  (2017 can obviously change)

Sooooooooooooo...when before Bielema were we getting all of these 15-20 classes nationally and 6th or better in the SEC?

Let's also go back before Bielema:
2012 10th-SEC 28th-nationally
2011 9th-SEC 21st-nationally
2010 10th-SEC 41st-nationally
2009 9th-SEC 21st-nationally
2008 6th-SEC 27th-nationally
2007 10th-SEC 38th-nationally
2006 7th-SEC 25th-nationally
2005 8th-SEC 28th-nationally
2004 5th-SEC 24th-nationally
2003 10th-SEC 42nd-nationally
2002 9th-SEC 25th-nationally
2001 4th-SEC 9th-nationally
2000 5th-SEC 16th-nationally

Hopefully you can see a trend. It doesn't really matter who the coach is...recruiting to Arkansas is a tough job.

Since 2000:
2 classes that are ranked 16th or better Nationally (2000 & 2001)
3 classes ranked 5th or better in the SEC (2000, 2001, 2004)

[woodhog14]

Well.... no kidding! During NO ONES tenure do we have a top 20 class nationally!  Not CBB, CBP, or Nutt.

Just to keep the spotlight accurately pointed lets expand out your data -

2017  - yet to be determined
2016     9th in SEC     22nd  Nationally
2015   11th in SEC     23rd  Nationally
2014   11th in SEC     29th  Nationally
2013     9th in SEC     23rd  Nationally
2012   10th in SEC     28th  Nationally
2011     9th in SEC     21st  Nationally
2010   10th in SEC     41st  Nationally
2009     9th in SEC     21st  Nationally
2008     6th in SEC     27th  Nationally
2007   10th in SEC     38th  Nationally
2006     7th in SEC     25th  Nationally
2005     8th in SEC     28th  Nationally
2004     5th in SEC     24th  Nationally
2003    10th in SEC    42nd Nationally
2002      9th in SEC    25th  Nationally

You can see a clear recruiting  improvement under CBB. Three of his first four classes cracked the top 25. That is the first time that has ever happened. In addition he currently has back to back top 25 classes. Again, the first time that has happened in modern history.

CBB is making slightly better overall recruiting ratings than any coach in recent times. However, it is clear that the demographic and geographic limitations of the U of A make crashing through the next level of consistent top 15 or so very, very difficult regardless of the coach. None of them ever cracked it as of yet.

Ha! I was typing my reply out while you were posting.

[thefisher]

Ha! I was typing my reply out while you were posting.

Me too!  Great minds think alike!

[root_hawg]

Sorry didn't know the kid wouldn't qualify but still if he goes to JC and does well.... think he will come back to Ark when they showed no love?

[thefisher]

Sorry didn't know the kid wouldn't qualify but still if he goes to JC and does well.... think he will come back to Ark when they showed no love?

WHAAAT?!?!  He was told that if he could qualify academically then he would have a scholarship at Arkansas.  How do they "show love" to  kid who isn't academically qualified to play in the SEC other than encouraging him to go to JC and to do the work necessary to get eligible?

[HF#1]

I agree we need to recruit better.  For example, name one truly dynamic playmaker on either side of the ball. Agim may get there but right now he is an alternate. We have no dynamic game changers on offense or defense. We have a lot of good players but that's it.

[26.2Hog]

Well.... no kidding! During NO ONES tenure do we have a top 20 class nationally!  Not CBB, CBP, or Nutt.

Just to keep the spotlight accurately pointed lets expand out your data -

2017  - yet to be determined
2016     9th in SEC     22nd  Nationally
2015   11th in SEC     23rd  Nationally
2014   11th in SEC     29th  Nationally
2013     9th in SEC     23rd  Nationally
2012   10th in SEC     28th  Nationally
2011     9th in SEC     21st  Nationally
2010   10th in SEC     41st  Nationally
2009     9th in SEC     21st  Nationally
2008     6th in SEC     27th  Nationally
2007   10th in SEC     38th  Nationally
2006     7th in SEC     25th  Nationally
2005     8th in SEC     28th  Nationally
2004     5th in SEC     24th  Nationally
2003    10th in SEC    42nd Nationally
2002      9th in SEC    25th  Nationally

You can see a clear recruiting  improvement under CBB. Three of his first four classes cracked the top 25. That is the first time that has ever happened. In addition he currently has back to back top 25 classes. Again, the first time that has happened in modern history.

CBB is making slightly better overall recruiting ratings than any coach in recent times. However, it is clear that the demographic and geographic limitations of the U of A make crashing through the next level of consistent top 15 or so very, very difficult regardless of the coach. None of them ever cracked it as of yet.

Hey, I wasn't picking on Bielema.  Simply responding to Sanity's post saying we are usually in the top 20 and 7th-8th in the SEC.

[thefisher]

I agree we need to recruit better.  For example, name one truly dynamic playmaker on either side of the ball. Agim may get there but right now he is an alternate. We have no dynamic game changers on offense or defense. We have a lot of good players but that's it.

Hmmm ... I think I heard Austin Allen and Drew Morgan saying hello.

[thefisher]

Hey, I wasn't picking on Bielema.  Simply responding to Sanity's post saying we are usually in the top 20 and 7th-8th in the SEC.

sorry .... reflex action at this point.  Pick your drink ... next rounds on me.

[Piggfoot]

And that is why you do not remotely understand why recruiting to Arkansas will never be on par to other schools ... even the Mississippi schools ... unless there are massive changes in the structural/demographic makeup of the states or high school systems.

I am not just spouting opinions like your post was.  Since you mentioned the Mississippi schools lets take a look at the cold hard fact bottom lines on that front.


2016
The state of Arkansas   produced 3   recruits rated 4-5 stars and 25 recruits rated 3-5 stars
The state of Mississippi produced 11 recruits rated 4-5 stars and 67 recruits rated 3-5 stars

2015
The state of Arkansas   produced 5   recruits rated 4-5 stars and 36 recruits rated 3-5 stars
The state of Mississippi produced 9   recruits rated 4-5 stars and 62 recruits rated 3-5 stars

2014
The state of Arkansas   produced 2   recruits rated 4-5 stars and 14 recruits rated 3-5 stars
The state of Mississippi produced 9   recruits rated 4-5 stars and 61 recruits rated 3-5 stars

2013
The state of Arkansas   produced 3   recruits rated 4-5 stars and 12 recruits rated 3-5 stars
The state of Mississippi produced 10 recruits rated 4-5 stars and 59 recruits rated 3-5 stars

As a total you can see this-

THE TOTAL NUMBER OF 4-5 STAR RECRUITS PRODUCED IN THE 4 YEAR RECRUITING CYCLE
Arkansas -   13
Mississippi - 39

THE TOTAL NUMBER OF 3-5 STAR RECRUITS PRODUCED IN THE 4 YEAR RECRUITING CYCLE
Arkansas -     87
Mississippi - 249

The state of Mississippi produces 3 times as many upper level elite football athletes as the state of Arkansas
Yes, even the Mississippi schools kick our arse in the high school football talent production. 
THAT is the problem ... always has been ... and will be for the foreseeable future.

I know many want to think Arkansas could just swoop in and scoop those kids up because of the ... "We are Fayetteville ... and we have the Catfish Hole!" mentality.  It just isn't so.

As proof of that I offer these state of Mississippi recruiting facts.

In the last 4 recruiting cycles the state of Mississippi has produced 39 football players rated 4-5 stars. 
Ole Miss gained commitments from 17 of them.
Mississippi State gained commitments from 15 of them.

Thus they retained 32 of the 39 players rated at 4-5 stars to stay in state and play for the Mississippi schools.
The only ones they lost were Bama got 3, LSU got 2, TA&M got 1, 1 had to go JUCO.  They fence their state in as well as anyone. 

Do you see that?  BOTH Mississippi Schools signed more 4-5 star players from Mississippi than the entire state of Arkansas even produced! 

In that same time frame Arkansas signed 10 in state 4-5 star recruits.  Would the Hogs be a better team if they had an extra 5-7 recruits rated at 4-5 stars every few years. YOU BET!

Throw in the fact that the Mississippi schools are producing 3 star recruits at almost triple the rate of Arkansas schools. Many of those are high end 3 stars and very talented.  You see the uphill battle the Hogs face in recruiting against even states like Mississippi. They have overall better players to recruit from and a whole lot more of them!  Plus they are in state, those kids generally want to play close to home if possible, and the coaches then have the ability to spend much more time in the high schools building relationships as they don't have to travel near so far and wide as Arkansas does to find recruits.

THAT is why no coach has yet solved the recruiting problems facing Arkansas. NONE OF THEM.

They are not people problems as much as cold hard demographic facts coupled with Arkansas having little to offer that is a strong enough pull to get kids to pass on offers from other major programs that are closer to home or in an environment an 18 year old would more willingly embrace.

*all recruit ranking data is from 247sports*

This thread and this post in particular needs to be stickied. We go through this every year at least once. Sometimes there are new posters with poor understanding but often it is the same song second verse with trolling posters.

[PorkSoda]

so what all this comes down to is Broyles was right when he said arkansas was 7-8th in the SEC in potential.

[SooiecidetillNuttgone]

Hmmm ... I think I heard Austin Allen and Drew Morgan saying hello.

And Sprinkle perhaps?

[Pork Twain]

Great to see so many level headed and rational posts on this topic.  Stars matter, whether you want them to or not and the state of Arkansas does not produce them at a very high rate.  Nobody is saying, "We are poor lil ole Arky," but the fact that it is much more difficult to win in the SEC, with any HC, at Arkansas vs most of our counterparts, is undeniable.  Building a winner will take HDN time, not BP time.  If BP would have not wrecked, I do believe he would have built us in a team that others feared.  Given time, I think CBB can do the same, but it will take time.

For the life of me, I think many of you either can't or simply refuse to acknowledge the vast difference between a top 10 recruiting class and one that falls between 20-30 and the amount of development and perfect gameplan that has to be called in order to make up that difference.

[sigpooie]

It all starts with 3rd graders. Most of you can help ARK get better. But you have to get off the keyboard and hit the field and teach kids to be 4 and 5 stars. Or hire their parents and others that will make sure the kids get taught and can play. FL TX and La have these well trained kids coming up the system.
And I totally agree it's time to stop wasting 300 to 700 thousand dollars per school district just to have a administrator.

[blu]

or maybe we just keep competing the right way, and stop sweating the fact that we aren't bama.

If I could +1 I would...I'll take our coach and his philosophy (and MA's also in BB) every time. If we can't win with honesty and integrity then I am not a supporter or a fan. We're mostly competitive in the toughest division of the toughest conference in college football. Recruit the best you can, recruit kids you think fit your program and keep them in the program. Get a couple of real difference makers and a couple of good bounces and you never know.

[Pork Twain]

How the teams that have played for the BCS have recruited 1-4 years prior to winning it all.  Even there, the winners averaged 10 places higher in prior recruiting classes than the losers, over a four year period.

Numbers from 24/7

[HF#1]

Hmmm ... I think I heard Austin Allen and Drew Morgan saying hello.

Good players, not dynamic.

[HF#1]

And Sprinkle perhaps?

Good player, not dynamic.

[DeltaBoy]

We need a real reinsurance in the Delta .  Pine Bluff and Dollarway used to be money for one or 3 Hogs every year or so

[Pork Twain]

Here are a couple of tables that show how the teams in the SEC ranked in recruiting and then the number of wins they had each year.  I went back 10 years and the correlation is pretty difficult to deny, unless you are really trying.

[ballhogger]

   First off, I would like to state that I am a huge coach B fan.  I believe we have as much overall depth as we have had and will continue to be solid year in and year out with him.  That being said as far as recruiting is concerned, I think that a perfect storm hit AR in a bad way.  When we first started the Southwest Classic with Texas A&M we were dominating them physically and had one thing that they did not, an SEC lable.  We were the closest border state to Texas and I feel that was a huge advantage.  When the lines got opened up west and north of us it made our state seem that much smaller and has hurt us.  Although, Mizz does not out recruit us on a year to year basis I felt like the fact that we were the border helped us. Next add the Bobby accident, John L debacle and you have a perfect storm that could bury a program in all facets.  Remember all of this happened within a year.  This is why I am high on Coach B.  We went from that to having the possibility of winning the rest of our games and finishing the reg season with 2 losses.  I know this weekend we are not favored but we have beaten then the last two years and there is no reason we could not do it again.  He has turned a mess into a solid program.
   

[thefisher]

Good players, not dynamic.

Through six games Austin Allen leads the conference with 15 passing touchdowns and is in the top four in every significant statistical passing category.

I don't understand how you can label the quarterback (AA) that leads the SEC in touchdown passes and is in the top four of every significant statistical passing category as "non dynamic" but rather just "good".

Perhaps you are just trolling?

[jackflash]

I not saying fire anyone but assistant coaches need to be held account for recruiting.

[MJ2]

If you can recruit to Oxford or Starkville you should definitely be able to recruit to Fayetteville.   Nuf said.

[PLHawg]

The lesson I've gleaned from this thread is based on recruiting, we belong in the Big 12, not the SEC.  Seriously, everyone can flame all they want, but given the huge handicap we have in recruiting does anyone believe we have a shot to in any way be near the pinnacle of the SEC?  Maybe we'll make it to the SEC Championship game once every 10 or 15 yrs?  Can we be competitive? Absolutely. Can we consistently be in the top half?  Doubtful.  Let's face it, the one advantage we have of being in the SEC is $, nothing more.  Not necessarily calling for the Hogs to abandon the SEC, but in hindsight the Big 12 would have been a better fit for us.

[Razorbackers]

If you can recruit to Oxford or Starkville you should definitely be able to recruit to Fayetteville.   Nuf said.

Oxford is lovely, don't even pretend it isn't. And, as this thread has already clearly demonstrated, MS has more 4 and 5 star recruits in one year than AR will have in state in 2-4 years. So, being so close to home is a huge selling point.

I mean, you can sit there and ignore the geography and the numbers, and no one will argue that NWA isn't gorgeous, but home is home for a lot of kids.

[woodhog14]

If you can recruit to Oxford or Starkville you should definitely be able to recruit to Fayetteville.   Nuf said.

Did you not see the data??? Or you just don't see that stuff so it can fit your agenda? Jesus. It's much easier to recruit better players when you have them in your own back yard.

THE TOTAL NUMBER OF 4-5 STAR RECRUITS PRODUCED IN THE 4 YEAR RECRUITING CYCLE
Arkansas -   13
Mississippi - 39

THE TOTAL NUMBER OF 3-5 STAR RECRUITS PRODUCED IN THE 4 YEAR RECRUITING CYCLE
Arkansas -     87
Mississippi - 249

[IMABIELEMA]

If you can recruit to Oxford or Starkville you should definitely be able to recruit to Fayetteville.   Nuf said.

You are simply misinformed.

[Chitlins]

WHAAAT?!?!  He was told that if he could qualify academically then he would have a scholarship at Arkansas.  How do they "show love" to  kid who isn't academically qualified to play in the SEC other than encouraging him to go to JC and to do the work necessary to get eligible?

how the hell can ANYONE not qualify academically to play SEC football? jesus h christ .

[Chitlins]

Different coach.

..and not buying this for one second either.

[BassinHawg]

Our basketball program is clearly looking up and a big part of that is because our b-ball coaches are getting it done in recruiting!

Yet to be seen, don't count your chickens before they hatch. All those NCAA Tourneys the last and all......

[Pork Twain]

If you can recruit to Oxford or Starkville you should definitely be able to recruit to Fayetteville.   Nuf said.

You are living proof that no matter what factual data is presented, you will continue to ignore that which does not align with your way of thinking.  There is plenty of that data right here in this thread.

Also believe it or not, there are plenty of people in the world, especially college kids, that are not super pumped to go to BFE Fayetteville.  Stop acting like it is the cradle of life.

[MojaveJoe]

At this point I'm more inclined to not fire BB as long as recruiting is going up each year. If we go down in the ranking and finish badly I may start calling for his head depending on how bad/injuries.

But so far I'm optimistic about an 8+ season. 6 wins or less would be hard to justify but I simply don't see that yet.

[HF#1]

Through six games Austin Allen leads the conference with 15 passing touchdowns and is in the top four in every significant statistical passing category.

I don't understand how you can label the quarterback (AA) that leads the SEC in touchdown passes and is in the top four of every significant statistical passing category as "non dynamic" but rather just "good".

Perhaps you are just trolling?

Lamar Jackson is dynamic. Jalen Hurts is dynamic. Watson at Clemson is dynamic. They change the game in a way so that you ALWAYS have a chance to win.

[HF#1]

More Dynamic players...

Myles Garrett, Treyveon Williams at A&M, Mikah Fitzpatrick at Alabama. JT Barrett at Ohio State.

We have 0 players of this caliber.

Kind of like having a basketball team full of role players. That's our football team.  Good players that occasionally do great things but none change the game in a way that gives you a chance every week.

[majp51]

Lamar Jackson is dynamic. Jalen Hurts is dynamic. Watson at Clemson is dynamic. They change the game in a way so that you ALWAYS have a chance to win.

And if you give AA the OL of the three QB's that you mention AA would suddenly be as dynamic. Watson by himself, Jackson, by himself and Hirts by himself would look worse than AA with Arkansas' line, Watson is the only one you mention that is so good of an actual Passer, that he might still be just as dynamic.

[NuttinItUp]

Recruiting answers aren't going to come from a message board, fyi.

[majp51]

More Dynamic players...

Myles Garrett, Treyveon Williams at A&M, Mikah Fitzpatrick at Alabama. JT Barrett at Ohio State.

We have 0 players of this caliber.

Kind of like having a basketball team full of role players. That's our football team.  Good players that occasionally do great things but none change the game in a way that gives you a chance every week.

Even that is wrong. The problem is that you state Dynamic players on great teams. If the Rest of the D at A&M was truly horrible, then Garret and Williams would not be mentioned the way they are now, because you could neutralize them.

Our problem is the opposite of what you say. It's our overall depth and lack of enough "better than average" role players, not the lack of "dynamic" players that cause our problem.

[Sportster365]

Just the fact that Arkansas plays in the SEC should at minimum land a top 25 recruiting class. The SEC is THE brand, its the Nike of college football. Unless Vandy or Kentucky, proven doormats, then you shouldn't have too much of an issue recruiting here when our facilities are on par with or better than every other team in the conference.

[majp51]

Recruiting answers aren't going to come from a message board, fyi.

While true, it is also far more constructive than focusing on all the Naysayers talking about how we are going to get stomped by Ole Miss, so why not shoot the breeze here instead of there

[The Hawg Marshal]

I don't think anyone can disagree that we need to recruit better. The issue is how do we get it done. I think CBB and the staff are trying, but it's hard to do going against the competition we face. That is unless you want to do what the black bears did.