Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965

[lasthog]

Uh, take your time and do the math

I don't have to do the math, I can just tell.

I was outside my grandpa's house in Grant County  listening to the Texas game on the car radio, and remember really well Kenny (he wasn't Ken then) Hatfield's 81 yd. punt return for a touchdown.

Wasn't near as long ago as y'all are saying...I think they got it on YouTube, and that hasn't been around near no 53 years.

So y'all go refigure.

[PonderinHog]

I don't have to do the math, I can just tell.

I was outside my grandpa's house in Grant County  listening to the Texas game on the car radio, and remember really well Kenny (he wasn't Ken then) Hatfield's 81 yd. punt return for a touchdown.

Wasn't near as long ago as y'all are saying...I think they got it on YouTube, and that hasn't been around near no 53 years.

So y'all go refigure.

Oh, I get it now.  You're right.  Seems like yesterday!

[KennyForAD]

I now seriously believe we could win 8 or 9, and I'm not being facetious. Games against Texas A&M, Auburn, Ole Miss, South Carolina and Missouri are all very winnable games.  This conference absolutely stinks.

LMAO

[snoblind]

I don't have to do the math, I can just tell.

I was outside my grandpa's house in Grant County  listening to the Texas game on the car radio, and remember really well Kenny (he wasn't Ken then) Hatfield's 81 yd. punt return for a touchdown.

Wasn't near as long ago as y'all are saying...I think they got it on YouTube, and that hasn't been around near no 53 years.

So y'all go refigure.

Oh, I get it now.  You're right.  Seems like yesterday!

The facts that I have to read your posts with reading glasses, can hardly hear the TV, and delaying getting up to refresh my coffee because of the arthritis in my knee tells me you are both wrong.

[PonderinHog]

The facts that I have to read your posts with reading glasses, can hardly hear the TV, and delaying getting up to refresh my coffee because of the arthritis in my knee tells me you are both wrong.

Is this better   YOU WANT ME TO SHOUT

[snoblind]

Is this better   YOU WANT ME TO SHOUT

Yes, thank you.

[cj_sez]

Expectations: "If you expect nothing from somebody you are never disappointed." Sylvia Plath.

I'd rather have the disappointments than to not have the hope to aspire. I really don't think Hogs fans have the expectation of dominating and being top 5 every year. I do think we should be ABLE to see that on occasion. I think we should have the dream for that is what brings in new fans as well as keep drawing others back year after year.

I think the players should not only expect, but DESERVE, a coaching staff that teaches them to aspire.

"The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." ― Michelangelo Buonarroti   (Is that what anyone wants? I think not.)

[PonderinHog]

"Sin, and sin boldly." - John Calvin   

[NorCalRazorback]

Painting with too broad a brush, perhaps.

You know what I expect from our football program? The same thing I do from out basketball and baseball programs: the feeling that we have a chance. We may not have a Top 10 team, we may not be in the national conversation, but we have a chance to be. DVH has been here 15 years. No one is trying to run him off; why? Because fans know that every year we have a realistic chance to get to Omaha. May not make it but once every four or five years, but Razorback baseball fans have faith and hope that we can, based on past experience and belief in DVH.

Our football program has reached a point where fans like me have to be satisfied with the experience surrounding home games, because the games themselves are likely to disappoint. There is no hope or faith that the current coach can ever do any better than what we have seen so far, which is an average of 6.25 wins per season.

What we have now is the equivalent of getting in a fight, getting your ass totally kicked, and then getting up off the ground and having to look for the silver lining in the place where you got your ass kicked. "Wow, isn't the view great?" "Man, I sure am glad I had this nice soft spot on the ground to lay on while dude punched all my teeth out. That was cool."

Great Post!  Loved it!

[oldbooniehog]

I have lived in Iowa for a while now.

I think Iowa and Arkansas have quite a bit in common as college football programs.

Both are "2nd tier" programs in Power 5 football conferences. Both are probably not going to win a conference title any given year.

Here's a link to current Iowa coach Kirk Ferentz' s record.

He's been at Iowa 19 years.

The longest tenured coach at Arkansas since Frank Broyles has been Houston Nutt, at only 10 years.

Check Ferentz's record.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/coaches/kirk-ferentz-1.html

Over 19 years, he's at 60% wins. Very near the Houston Nutt level.

Had he been at Arkansas, he would have been fired or run off around probably around 2001, with 2 losing seasons followed up by a 7-5 mark.

Hog fans would have been screaming for his head at that point.

Of course, that would have meant the 2002, 2003 and 2004 seasons would have never happened. 11-2, 10-3-10-2 if you don't want to click on the link.

At Arkansas, Hog fans would have most certainly been calling for Ferentz to be fired after 2005 through 2007. He went 7-6, 6-7 and 6-6 over those three years.

If he had been fired, then the 2008 and 2009 seasons would not have happened. 9-4 and 11-2 respectively.

In 2012, Iowa won only 4 games. Hog fans would have flown banners, filed FOI requests for his phone and picketed the U of A Athletic Department, demanding his firing.

Which would have meant the 2015 12-2 season would never have happened.

Hog fans are so desperate to be "relevant," so desperate to be seen as winners that they have very little patience, and demand big success very quickly. Despite Arkansas not having much of that kind of success since joining the SEC, a quarter century ago.

Had Bobby Petrino managed to not get fired in early 2012, and had complied with Jeff Long's conditions to keep his job, i predict, with great certainty, the following would have happened.

Petrino would have had a down year or two. His recruiting, especially on defense, leaves much to be desired, which has been proven over his entire coaching career.

His teams would have fallen way short of 11 or 10 wins, and there might have even been a losing season or two.

Hog fans would have been yelling for him to fire this assistant and that assistant.

A few years later, after still not having beaten Alabama, and still not having won an SEC title (pretty much the same level he's shown at Louisville since 2014) Hog fans would be saying the following.

"Petrino is NEVER going to get us to the title game. He's a great offensive mind, but just can't get us over the top. It's time for a change. FIRE PETRINO!

Hog fans are never satisfied, because they want a repeat of 1964.

[Bubba's Bruisers]

I have lived in Iowa for a while now.

I think Iowa and Arkansas have quite a bit in common as college football programs.

Both are "2nd tier" programs in Power 5 football conferences. Both are probably not going to win a conference title any given year.

Here's a link to current Iowa coach Kirk Ferentz' s record.

He's been at Iowa 19 years.

The longest tenured coach at Arkansas since Frank Broyles has been Houston Nutt, at only 10 years.

Check Ferentz's record.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/coaches/kirk-ferentz-1.html

Over 19 years, he's at 60% wins. Very near the Houston Nutt level.

Had he been at Arkansas, he would have been fired or run off around probably around 2001, with 2 losing seasons followed up by a 7-5 mark.

Hog fans would have been screaming for his head at that point.

Of course, that would have meant the 2002, 2003 and 2004 seasons would have never happened. 11-2, 10-3-10-2 if you don't want to click on the link.

At Arkansas, Hog fans would have most certainly been calling for Ferentz to be fired after 2005 through 2007. He went 7-6, 6-7 and 6-6 over those three years.

If he had been fired, then the 2008 and 2009 seasons would not have happened. 9-4 and 11-2 respectively.

In 2012, Iowa won only 4 games. Hog fans would have flown banners, filed FOI requests for his phone and picketed the U of A Athletic Department, demanding his firing.

Which would have meant the 2015 12-2 season would never have happened.

Hog fans are so desperate to be "relevant," so desperate to be seen as winners that they have very little patience, and demand big success very quickly. Despite Arkansas not having much of that kind of success since joining the SEC, a quarter century ago.

Had Bobby Petrino managed to not get fired in early 2012, and had complied with Jeff Long's conditions to keep his job, i predict, with great certainty, the following would have happened.

Petrino would have had a down year or two. His recruiting, especially on defense, leaves much to be desired, which has been proven over his entire coaching career.

His teams would have fallen way short of 11 or 10 wins, and there might have even been a losing season or two.

Hog fans would have been yelling for him to fire this assistant and that assistant.

A few years later, after still not having beaten Alabama, and still not having won an SEC title (pretty much the same level he's shown at Louisville since 2014) Hog fans would be saying the following.

"Petrino is NEVER going to get us to the title game. He's a great offensive mind, but just can't get us over the top. It's time for a change. FIRE PETRINO!

Hog fans are never satisfied, because they want a repeat of 1964.

You're describing most fan bases.  Other than Nutt, what coach was fired primarily due to a toxic fan base?  I mean what coach was fired who shouldn't have been fired?

[Piggfoot]

Great post. Spot on. This is not another. Poor little ole Arkysaw post as some say.  Rather it is a documentation of fact. Unfortunately there are those who will never accept these facts and it is these people who take the fun and pleasure out of being a fan for me.

[Locutus_of_Boar]

I know Arkansas fans very well.

----
On and on, with no end, and no realistic chance of it ending, all because Hog fans simply cannot get over 1964.

A lot of coaches have come and gone on the Hill believing that Arkansas fans would take one championship for decades of whatever else comes with it.  To think that is to completely misread most Arkansans.

1964 is not the expectation that lurks in the mind of Arkansas fans.  Indeed it is the one exception to the expectations.

The expectation is throwing high on 3rd & goal at the Texas 7 when a simple dive play sets up the championship field goal.

It's the 22 game streak rinding on the 1966 Cotton Bowl.

It's the Stoerner Stumble.

It's giving up a TD on the last play in 1987.

It not quite fielding a punt on the over the shoulder in the SEC Championship game.

It is those plays and a hundred more like them.

Arkansas fans are not gluttons for punishment but they do expect something like this to happen on the verge of greatness with regularity.  Being a part of one great defeat a season is worth far more than a season full if minor victories while the championship is for two other teams to fight over.  That was the game that Broyles played better than all the rest.  Arkansas fans of that era remember the near misses of 1962, 1965, 1968, 1969, and 1970 every bit as much as the exception of 1964.

What most coaches who took the Arkansas job never understood is the vast majority of Arkansas fans want a coach who can year after year put the team in the position to have a chance to make that one last play even if the odds of pulling it off are diminishingly small.

[Porkette]

Expectations and hopes are definitely two different things as a fan. While I'm never going to stop hoping for that year when we can win the SEC and make a run for the playoff (and we should expect our leadership to strive for that goal), I really like the OP's posts in this thread. He's basing his arguments entirely in fact, and I appreciate the historic perspective.

[hogsanity]

Funny, some of you saying we don't expect 10 wins, yet you had a coach do that thrice, Hatfield, and many were happy when he left.

These same people say they can't understand the " loser " mindset, then excuse a certain coach for not beating Bama.

Basically, Hog fans want whatever they do not have at that particular moment.

[Atlhogfan1]

Funny, some of you saying we don't expect 10 wins, yet you had a coach do that thrice, Hatfield, and many were happy when he left.

These same people say they can't understand the " loser " mindset, then excuse a certain coach for not beating Bama.

Basically, Hog fans want whatever they do not have at that particular moment.

In a conf the equivalent of the MWC now.  We want to have what is right at the edge of our reach which is competing for a NC at some point.   It's possible but will take many things coming together. 

[Paladin_Hog]

Brilliant post! This needs to be moved up top for all to read. We are our own worst enemy. We will continue to fire coaches so the hype can be started all over again. It's not about the coach. It's our program. It's our insanely delusional fanbase thinking we can fire our way to relevance. There are several posters enamored with Miss State's smashing of LSU while ignoring that it took him 7 years to break through. This is the case for every program not in elite recruiting territory. But start talking about the hogs, we should be winning 10 in year 3 because bobby did. Here is a secret we beat a lot of bad teams on that 21-5 run (12 to be exact). 2006 was so close because we beat 7 teams with losing records before falling apart when the schedule improved. The 98 team played the weakest schedule beating 7 teams with losing records before falling apart. Bielema might suck but has coached against the stiffest competition since we joined the SEC. The teams played combine for 37 winning records and 14 losing. This is the toughest 4 year stretch in hog history. We are great when our program is prepared for a low point in the schedule. Unfortanely we are never prepared. It's the reason we can never finish off a good season with a big win. We are 1-26 against conference champs and 12 plus win teams since joining the SEC.

I get your point, but how many other teams were beating 12 plus win teams?

[hogsanity]

  We want to have what is right at the edge of our reach which is competing for a NC at some point.   It's possible but will take many things coming together.
 

IF it is going to take may things coming together then it is not right at the edge of our reach. I do agree, for the Hogs to have a special season it takes perfect alignment of a many things, some of which are out of their control.

[bphi11ips]

A lot of coaches have come and gone on the Hill believing that Arkansas fans would take one championship for decades of whatever else comes with it.  To think that is to completely misread most Arkansans.

1964 is not the expectation that lurks in the mind of Arkansas fans.  Indeed it is the one exception to the expectations.

The expectation is throwing high on 3rd & goal at the Texas 7 when a simple dive play sets up the championship field goal.

It's the 22 game streak rinding on the 1966 Cotton Bowl.

It's the Stoerner Stumble.

It's giving up a TD on the last play in 1987.

It not quite fielding a punt on the over the shoulder in the SEC Championship game.

It is those plays and a hundred more like them.

Arkansas fans are not gluttons for punishment but they do expect something like this to happen on the verge of greatness with regularity.  Being a part of one great defeat a season is worth far more than a season full if minor victories while the championship is for two other teams to fight over.  That was the game that Broyles played better than all the rest.  Arkansas fans of that era remember the near misses of 1962, 1965, 1968, 1969, and 1970 every bit as much as the exception of 1964.

What most coaches who took the Arkansas job never understood is the vast majority of Arkansas fans want a coach who can year after year put the team in the position to have a chance to make that one last play even if the odds of pulling it off are diminishingly small.

Perfect.

The hogsanities of the world would like to rewrite history.  Those who know the real story need to hold their feet to the fire.

[hogsanity]

Perfect.

The hogsanities of the world would like to rewrite history.  Those who know the real story need to hold their feet to the fire.

So Hog fans expect to have the rug pulled out from under them every year? Awesome.

BTW, I have re-written nothing. I have time and again referenced the times we have come up just short. That is what average programs do. If they did not find ways to lose more often than not they would be elite.

[bphi11ips]

So Hog fans expect to have the rug pulled out from under them every year? Awesome.

BTW, I have re-written nothing. I have time and again referenced the times we have come up just short. That is what average programs do. If they did not find ways to lose more often than not they would be elite.

I've blown your average theory out of the water here in half a dozen posts in the last week.  But you ignore them because you can't respond without looking uniformed at best or a liar at worst.  Which is it?

[Potosihog]

Most hog fans right now:  "Either we eat at Ruth's Chris or we starve to death!"

Man I just want Applebee's right now.  This season so far doesn't even look like McDonald's.  I hope it changes but I'm not very hopeful.  And I am usually a very optimistic guy.

[hogsanity]

I've blown your average theory out of the water here in half a dozen posts in the last week.  But you ignore them because you can't respond without looking uniformed at best or a liar at worst.  Which is it?

You have done nothing to show the averages are anything but exactly that, averages. You just do not like what those #'s show. You remind me of clients that have one or 2 good quarters and try to act like those are the norm then when they go back to what they were for the last 10 years they can't understand it.

[DeltaBoy]

I am not haunted by 64 I was not even in Momma's Oven back then. It was a magical season.  I am Haunted by the success we had from 1972 to 1990.

[Cinco de Hogo]

Not one season in my whole life have I ever expected a no loss season.  I expect good football that is hard fought to the end win, lose or draw.

[Piggfoot]

Reality is that without high expectations you have zero chance to be successful.

I would wager there's not a single regular poster on this site that compares Bielema to Broyles or our success from 50-60 years ago to our failures of today.

Meaningless post.

I'll take that bet. People here are constantly comparing SEC days with that which occured in SWC days.

[GuvHog]

A lot of coaches have come and gone on the Hill believing that Arkansas fans would take one championship for decades of whatever else comes with it.  To think that is to completely misread most Arkansans.

1964 is not the expectation that lurks in the mind of Arkansas fans.  Indeed it is the one exception to the expectations.

The expectation is throwing high on 3rd & goal at the Texas 7 when a simple dive play sets up the championship field goal.

It's the 22 game streak rinding on the 1966 Cotton Bowl.

It's the Stoerner Stumble.

It's giving up a TD on the last play in 1987.

It not quite fielding a punt on the over the shoulder in the SEC Championship game.

It is those plays and a hundred more like them.

Arkansas fans are not gluttons for punishment but they do expect something like this to happen on the verge of greatness with regularity.  Being a part of one great defeat a season is worth far more than a season full if minor victories while the championship is for two other teams to fight over.  That was the game that Broyles played better than all the rest.  Arkansas fans of that era remember the near misses of 1962, 1965, 1968, 1969, and 1970 every bit as much as the exception of 1964.

What most coaches who took the Arkansas job never understood is the vast majority of Arkansas fans want a coach who can year after year put the team in the position to have a chance to make that one last play even if the odds of pulling it off are diminishingly small.

Very well said. I just want a Hog football program that in down years still wins at least 8 regular season games, is relevant, and is competitive on the national level.

[bphi11ips]

You have done nothing to show the averages are anything but exactly that, averages. You just do not like what those #'s show. You remind me of clients that have one or 2 good quarters and try to act like those are the norm then when they go back to what they were for the last 10 years they can't understand it.

Why don't you go back and respond to my posts where I post facts that blow your "average" theory out of the water?  Here are a few you have ignored in your "What Then" thread: Reply #'s 100, 271, 290, 332. 

I saw this spin on "arguing with idiots" in an avatar this morning and immediately thought of you - "Arguing with an idiot is like playing chess with a pigeon. It'll just knock over all the pieces, darn on the board, and strut about like it's won anyway."

You're like the Black Knight:

At least define the programs in your average universe and do a little research before you make false statements in support of your false premises.

Here's a Wikipedia link with a chart setting forth a list of Arkansas Razorbacks football seasons.  There's one for every major college football team:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arkansas_Razorbacks_football_seasons

Check out the years from 1959 to 1989 and tell us again that Arkansas produces one good team per generation.

And for Heaven's sake, stop defining your own self-worth by your perceived success of the football team and stop projecting your own tendency to define your own self worth in that manner on others.     

[DeltaBoy]

Why don't you go back and respond to my posts where I post facts that blow your "average" theory out of the water?  Here are a few you have ignored in your "What Then" thread: Reply #'s 100, 271, 290, 332. 

I saw this spin on "arguing with idiots" in an avatar this morning and immediately thought of you - "Arguing with an idiot is like playing chess with a pigeon. It'll just knock over all the pieces, darn on the board, and strut about like it's won anyway."

You're like the Black Knight:

At least define the programs in your average universe and do a little research before you make false statements in support of your false premises.

Here's a Wikipedia link with a chart setting forth a list of Arkansas Razorbacks football seasons.  There's one for every major college football team:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arkansas_Razorbacks_football_seasons

Check out the years from 1959 to 1989 and tell us again that Arkansas produces one good team per generation.

And for Heaven's sake, stop defining your own self-worth by your perceived success of the football team and stop projecting your own tendency to define your own self worth in that manner on others.     

That chart change my mind.

[Sweet Feet]

In my humble opinion, To me, i think what has hog fans this way is 2 things: The success in the 60s-80s. and the move to the SEC.

The SWC wasn't nearly as strong back then as the SEC when Arkansas was successful from the 60s to 80s. Arkansas had the luxury of only having to worry about Texas most years and that it. They were able to rack off 8-9 wins easily, win conference titles, and reach major bowl games some years because of how weak the SWC was. Simply put, the SWC in that time span has spoiled Hog fans.

Now that they are in the SEC, hog fans who witnessed Arkansas be successful from the 60s to 80s are expecting them to emulate that same level of success in a much more difficult conference, but to no avail. Back then they had to only worry about Texas most years. In the SEC, they have to worry about Alabama, LSU, Auburn, Florida, Tennessee, Georgia etc. There are still seasons where they do have a flash of success like 98, 06, and 10-11 which only sparks the high expectations again.

Even looking at Arkansas' SEC record as an SWC member, they were 22-34-2 vs SEC and 4-11-1 in bowl games. As an SEC member, they are 89-112 (44%) in conference play, averaging a 3-4 record since joining. From the 60s to 80s, Arkansas' conference record in the SWC is 157-59-6 (70%), averaging a 5-2 conf record.

I do think Broyles has a little to blame for some of this as well. I feel he wanted to be the face of Arkansas football and didn't want other coaches surpassing him. Call me crazy, but i feel part of the reason he ran off Holtz, Hatfield, and possibly influenced the firing of Petrino was because those coaches had the potential to surpass him as an Arkansas coach. Holtz and Hatfield were very successful in their stints at Arkansas. No way should he have ran them off. Petrino had Arkansas in the top 5 for the first time in years, was a scoop and score away from winning the Sugar Bowl and finishing in the top 5, won 11 games for only the 3rd time in history, lost to the 2 National Title participants, and finished in the Top 5. He didn't break any NCAA rules and shouldn't have been fired. Those 3 coaches i feel could have taken Arkansas higher if they weren't cut down so suspiciously early. But Broyles and the media had simple-minded hog fans believing that they had to go.

Broyles also was all about the money. The move to the SEC was merely a money move and nothing more. Had they moved to the Big 12, we would have seen more wins and major bowl games than Arkansas is seeing now. Kansas has won a big time bowl more recently than Arkansas... Every team in the Big 12 up to this point except Iowa St has been ranked in the top 2 and has controlled their destiny to a national title game. It would have meant less money and having to deal with the politics from Texas, but Arkansas would have kept in touch with familiar foes and rivals, meet new ones, be geographically closer, and not constantly complain about being mediocre.  But Broyles had all of his hog faithful convinced even to this day that now money and facilities is more important than on the field success and made the move to the SEC, where Arkansas still hasn't won a conference title.

[Piggfoot]

Lotta truth in Sweets post. It is sad but I can't think of a coach that Broyles didn't fire or run off. Why Broyles was given a pass for that I'll never understand. He hired them then fired them. How was Arkansas ever able to develop?

[bphi11ips]

Lotta truth in Sweets post. It is sad but I can't think of a coach that Broyles didn't fire or run off. Why Broyles was given a pass for that I'll never understand. He hired them then fired them. How was Arkansas ever able to develop?

Broyles controlled the passes.  Still, were it not for Broyles we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. 

Sweet Feet's over arching point is correct - had the SWC survived as is to this day, Arkansas would have won a lot more football games.  His point that it was all Arkansas and Texas is correct for the most part from about 1960 to 1975, but that changed pretty quickly when Houston joined the conference in the mid-70s and A&M and SMU were cheating like Ole Miss and Mississippi State the last few years.  There were five teams from the SWC between 1975 and 1990 that took turns as Top 5 caliber teams.  Some years three or four at once.  Tech and Baylor weren't bad, either.  If you didn't live through those years you wouldn't know it without research.  Because the narrative here is that the SWC sucked, that's probably all you know if you buy Hogville legend.

With respect to Arkansas's record against SEC teams prior to joining the conference, keep in mind that record was compiled almost entirely against Ole Miss and LSU at a time when both were SEC powers, or against topranked SEC teams in bowl games.  We didn't play any weak sister SEC teams like Vandy, Kentucky, Mississippi State, and Florida.  Yes, I meant to say Florida. 

Having said that, Arkansas's entry into a tougher conference simultaneously with embarking down a path of mediocre head coaches led to the situation we found ourselves in when Bobby Petrino took over.  The SEC West reached maximum strength about the time John W. Smith had his little vacation in the hills.  Anyone with some perspective on the last 60 years of Razorbacks football understands that we are not going to win the West very often, but they also know we are capable of competing for it occassionally, as we have done even in the comparatively lean SEC years.

What people need to realize at the moment is that our best shot at getting back to where we were pre-SEC is to stick with the program in place a little longer. 

[Sweet Feet]

Lotta truth in Sweets post. It is sad but I can't think of a coach that Broyles didn't fire or run off. Why Broyles was given a pass for that I'll never understand. He hired them then fired them. How was Arkansas ever able to develop?

Exactly. In his stint, he fired/ran off
A.) A hall of fame coach who gave Arkansas one of the best teams in school history and eventually won a national title elsewhere
B.) A coach who had 3 10 win seasons and the highest win percentage in school history, albeit a bad bowl record.

Holtz i just don't understand why he ran him off outside of fear of him surpassing him. Hatfield i feel he ran him off because he was having sustained success with black QBs. As much of a positive picture we want to paint of Frank, il never forget stories when he went on air in the 60s and said he would never play a black QB because they weren't smart enough. Frank had his racist ways and hated not only the fact hatfield was a threat to having more success, but doing so with black QBs which is why he kept meddling Hatfield about his scheme. I feel he wanted to keep Malzahn away for that same reason, but he ended up going to Auburn, winning a national title as an OC, going to the national title as a Head coach, and recently playing in a NY6 bowl.

One thing i often wonder is why didn't he try to pursue Switzer and Jimmy with the ties they have with Arkansas? The only two coaches with a College and NFL title at the time and he didn't make an attempt at them. Hell even then, we had a graduate assistant coach on the 77 team by the name of Pete Carroll as well. Lots of big names, yet he either didn't want to reel them in, or ran them off when they got too successful.

[GuvHog]

Exactly. In his stint, he fired/ran off
A.) A hall of fame coach who gave Arkansas one of the best teams in school history and eventually won a national title elsewhere
B.) A coach who had 3 10 win seasons and the highest win percentage in school history, albeit a bad bowl record.

Holtz i just don't understand why he ran him off outside of fear of him surpassing him. Hatfield i feel he ran him off because he was having sustained success with black QBs. As much of a positive picture we want to paint of Frank, il never forget stories when he went on air in the 60s and said he would never play a black QB because they weren't smart enough. Frank had his racist ways and hated not only the fact hatfield was a threat to having more success, but doing so with black QBs which is why he kept meddling Hatfield about his scheme. I feel he wanted to keep Malzahn away for that same reason, but he ended up going to Auburn, winning a national title as an OC, going to the national title as a Head coach, and recently playing in a NY6 bowl.

One thing i often wonder is why didn't he try to pursue Switzer and Jimmy with the ties they have with Arkansas? The only two coaches with a College and NFL title at the time and he didn't make an attempt at them. Hell even then, we had a graduate assistant coach on the 77 team by the name of Pete Carroll as well. Lots of big names, yet he either didn't want to reel them in, or ran them off when they got too successful.

Holtz was good at taking the recruits of previous coaches and coaching them up. He was a great game day field coach but was a very poor recruiter. The latter is why Frank terminated him.

[Nashville Fan]

Historically, AR has won about 58% of it's games. Go back 10,20,30,40,50,60 years the total winning % is 57-59%. That's about 7 wins with our current number of games. Reality is not equal to our fan bases expectations. CBB is an average AR coach after starting with crap. So, he is performing a bit above the average. However feels like  he is being treated as one of the worst despite playing unprecedented competition.

[Sweet Feet]

Holtz was good at taking the recruits of previous coaches and coaching them up. He was a great game day field coach but was a very poor recruiter. The latter is why Frank terminated him.

How was he a poor recruiter though? 4 years after he came to Arkansas when all of Broyles' players and recruits left, He was 8-4  and 9-2-1 the next two years. He had one off year that next season where he still had a winning season and Broyles terminated him. I don't buy into that he was a poor recruiter. Otherwise, he wouldn't have done as well has he did at Notre Dame.

[bphi11ips]

How was he a poor recruiter though? 4 years after he came to Arkansas when all of Broyles' players and recruits left, He was 8-4  and 9-2-1 the next two years. He had one off year that next season where he still had a winning season and Broyles terminated him. I don't buy into that he was a poor recruiter. Otherwise, he wouldn't have done as well has he did at Notre Dame.

I have no idea whether Holtz could recruit or not.  The fact that he lost Keith Jackson to Oklahoma probably contributed to that belief.  I do know this article is closer to what happened than Hogville legend:

http://www.nytimes.com/1983/12/19/sports/holtz-resigns-as-coach-at-arkansas.html?mcubz=1

[WilsonHog]

If I am remembering correctly, the collective eyebrows of Arkansas fans started to raise soon after the Orange Bowl in 1978. Lou appeared on the Johnny Carson show, as a byproduct of enforcing his "Do-Right" in the suspensions of Ben Cowins, Michael Forrest, and Donny Bobo, and of subsequently beating the Oklahoma Sooners in the Orange Bowl. Lou made the comment on the Carson show that Fayetteville "isn't the end of the world, but you can see it from there." Didn't sit well with some folks back home. Not really good PR.

Over time, the perception became that the program was slipping, and the numbers sort of bore that out. From 1977 through 1979, we went a combined 30-5-1 (an average of 10 wins a year); from 1980 through 1983, we went 30-16-1 (an average of 7.5 wins a year). There was some thought that he couldn't recruit, but that really started to be the narrative when Keith Jackson announced for OU and Richard Brothers (who at the time was the only Arkansas schoolboy athlete in history to win the state decathlon twice, and would have won it three times were it not for a knee injury) was leaning toward Memphis (there is a famous local story about the day Holtz came to Rivercrest to meet Richard. In the context of a conversation with Richard's high school coach on the drive in from the airport, Holtz remarked, "He's white?? What do you mean he's white?" Had no idea, I suppose.). There was also a perception, which I seem to remember reading in an Orville Henry column, that Holtz wasn't too fond of that part of the job that called for him to associate with Arkansas boosters. The endorsement of Helms didn't help, but in and of itself probably wouldn't have mattered much had we been winning at a high level.

I had the privilege of hearing Lou speak in Blytheville a few years ago. He flatly denied that he was "burned out" when he left Arkansas, and asserted that he had no idea why JFB fired him. Still seemed a little upset by the whole thing.

At any rate, 1977 through 1979 sure was fun.

[Sweet Feet]

I have no idea whether Holtz could recruit or not.  The fact that he lost Keith Jackson to Oklahoma probably contributed to that belief.  I do know this article is closer to what happened than Hogville legend:

http://www.nytimes.com/1983/12/19/sports/holtz-resigns-as-coach-at-arkansas.html?mcubz=1

So this was really about him supporting a controversial politician?

[hogsanity]

At any rate, 1977 through 1979 sure was fun.

and was not able to be sustained. That is the difference here, the Hogs have shown they can rise up and have a great year or two, but they never can stay on top.

[WilsonHog]

and was not able to be sustained. That is the difference here, the Hogs have shown they can rise up and have a great year or two, but they never can stay on top.

Here I am enjoying reminiscing about a great era of Razorback football, and you come right behind it to piss all over it.

The number of posters who you are irritating the crap out of is growing exponentially. Add me to the list.

[IronHog]

and was not able to be sustained. That is the difference here, the Hogs have shown they can rise up and have a great year or two, but they never can stay on top.

Like 98% of power 5 programs

[bphi11ips]

Here's a bit of a history lesson for those who didn't live through the last 30 years of the SWC:

http://homepages.cae.wisc.edu/~dwilson/rsfc/history/APpolls.txt

At the link are final AP rankings from 1937 through 2010.  If you are a child of the BCS age forward, you should view this with the understanding that AP rankings were the measuring stick for college football on a national basis well into the 21st century.  These rankings accurately reflected the entire nation's consensus and media view on the best college football teams in the country at the highest level. 

These historic rankings confirm the comparative strength of the SWC over time with other major conferences.  There appears to be a lot of confusion over whether the SWC was a "major" conference.  It was, and a look here will confirm not only that it was, but that at any given time every team in the conference had some pretty good teams.  That should not surprise anyone today given the status of every team but Rice, which pretty much abandoned commitment to football after the 70s and SMU, which pretty much did the same thing after it became, in 1987, the only team in the history of the NCAA to have its football program banned from competition for cheating. 

It's easy to claim on a message board that the SWC was an inferior football conference.  It's not so easy to sustain that claim when faced with these rankings.

By the time Arkansas left the SWC to join the SEC, the handwriting was on the wall.  The SEC's best years on the national front, and from top to bottom, have by far been the years since Arkansas joined.  I believe that Broyles felt the winds of change and that Arkansas's switch helped drive the shift in balance of power, regardless of whether Arkansas itself contributed much in the rankings itself. 

Football is like everything else - it changes.  Integration changed the game dramatically after 1970, but those changes came quickly and Arkansas thrived long after integration.  As integration took deeper and deeper hold, the game changed to best suit the more athletic characteristics of African American athletes.  The more and more the game changed, the more power has become centered within schools located within reasonable driving distance of African American population centers.  We all know this.  In that respect Arkansas is at a disadvantage when compared to schools in the deep South and/or located closer to major metropolitan areas.  But that disadvantage may not be as pronounced as some think.  Draw a circle within five hours of Fayetteville and you will find Memphis, Little Rock, St. Louis, Oklahoma City, Kansas City, Shreveport/Bossier City, Wichita, and Dallas/Fort Worth.

If you look at the history of every single college football team with great tradition, and make no mistake, Arkansas has great tradition, you will find long periods punctuated by drought and coaching turnover.  For Alabama that period was 1979 to 2009.  For Florida that period was pretty much everything prior to 1990.  Texas has been going through that same period now going on three decades.  Yes they won a NC on Vince Young's freakish ability, but they have been nothing like the consistent team they were under Darrel Royal.  There are many examples of other teams if you look at their history. 

For Arkansas, the long period of drought looked like it may have been over in 2010 and 2011.  But Petrino had to go and we'll never know whether he could have sustained success or not.  We still don't know with Bret Bielema.  He has a very different approach to the game than Bobby Petrino.  The trajectory for a Bielema-type build looks more like a Mark Dantonio or Steve Spurrier at South Carolina ramp rather than a Bobby Petrino spike.  The good news about ramps is they tend to have a flatter top than a spike.  The ramp looked good until about 4 games ago.  A foot in bounds in the back of the end zone against TCU might have us still talking about going into A&M 5-0. 

This fanbase needs to look at the long history of college football and Arkansas's true place in it and exercise a little more patience.       

[bphi11ips]

So this was really about him supporting a controversial politician?

I've never been sure whether you are one of the many alter egos of OTR or not.  If you're question is genuine, yes - one of the most overtly racist American politicians of the 20th century. 

[bphi11ips]

Like 98% of power 5 programs

Yep.  EVERY team has gone through fairly long periods of relative "mediocrity".  It is always a coach who brings back success.

Here I am enjoying reminiscing about a great era of Razorback football, and you come right behind it to piss all over it.

The number of posters who you are irritating the crap out of is growing exponentially. Add me to the list.

You may not be able to reminisce about all of this, but 1959 to 1969 represents 11 years of sustained success.  Arkansas finished 8 of those seasons ranked in the Top 10.  They won one NC and twice were within a game of two more.  They were a 13-9 loss to Texas away from one in 1977. 

Part of HS's problem is with what he thinks we consider to be sustained success.  I think it is secretly his own standard.  No one here confuses Arkansas with Alabama, Ohio State, Michigan, USC or Oklahoma.  We don't expect 10+ win seasons sustained over time. We do confuse ourselves with Georgia, LSU, Auburn, A&M and Florida in terms of tradition, and so does the AP.  We have been falling for twenty years and they have been rising.  That doesn't mean that we are destined to stay where we are.  College football is fluid.  See Clemson and Oregon. 

Ignore HS and I'll deal with him.  It's fun watching him run and hide.  He appears to have a bad case of lockjaw.  Nothing a tetanus shot won't cure.  Or just a little honesty.   

[orvillesghost]

I took it for granted at the time but upon reflection, the years 1975 through 1982 were the pinnacle of Razorback football

And they did that in a SWC that was probably at its peak as well. Texas, Houston, SMU, A & M all produced high quality teams, it was nothing like the two team league of the 60's.

Holtz is supposed to have said after his first few SWC games in 1977..."Man the speed in this league is unreal"

[Inhogswetrust]

if he just wins the last two games in 2016, then the fan base is not this irritated

Post of the day winner even before the day is done!

[Inhogswetrust]

So this was really about him supporting a controversial politician?

Not just that. He had also PO'd a lot of high school coaches in the state. 

[Swestwill66]

Expectations: In 1987 Miami whooped the HOGS 51 to 7. The Miami players were playing tic tac toe on the sideline. In 1988 the HOGS went to Miami, I was expecting  worse. Arkansas dang near won,18 to 16 I think. In 89 Houston was supposed  to be unstoppable with their run and shoot offense. I was hoping we could win but expected to be run out of the stadium. HOGS won 45 to 39.
We should expect the best out of our hogs!

[bphi11ips]

The number of posters who you are irritating the crap out of is growing exponentially. Add me to the list.

Pssst...Wilson...I think you hurt his feelings.