All-time Razorback team

[Big Nasty 34]

That's your argument....that scouts that he should be taken in the first round? Wow.

14.2ppg 46.8 fg% 74.7 ft% 2.6apg 6.4 rpg 0.4bpg 1.4stl

That's one of the top 2 players to ever play for Arkansas? I think if you completely removed what Joe has done in the pros from your subconscious, you would not be saying that about Joe.

This! I love Joe, but he didn't exactly dominate like this guy is making it sound like he did.

[McKdaddy]

That's your argument....that scouts that he should be taken in the first round? Wow.

14.2ppg 46.8 fg% 74.7 ft% 2.6apg 6.4 rpg 0.4bpg 1.4stl

That's one of the top 2 players to ever play for Arkansas? I think if you completely removed what Joe has done in the pros from your subconscious, you would not be saying that about Joe.

Agreed.

[choppedporkextrasauce]

Joe Johnson was better. And it wasn't really close.

Yes after 1 1/2 years, even professional scouts thought he was so good he should be taken in the first round.

It's irrelevant what the pro scouts think, this isn't about pro potential.
Joe Johnson didn't do enough as a RAZORBACK to earn a vote for all time RAZORBACK. Other players stayed longer, won more games and were better COLLEGE players.

Yeah I get Joe is a really good pro player but I really don't care about the pros, its the least intersting version of basketball.

[Rynohog]

What you are arguing are two different things.
Joes talent and God given ability against big nasties accomplishments over full college career.

Joe wins the talent debate every day and twice on Sunday.
Corliss wins the accomplishments with what he was able to do in 4 years at the UofA.

Who is more talented as a basketball player.?
Joe. Who was a greater Razorback? Corliss.

What Joe Johnson can do on a basketball court at 6'8 is nothing short of amazing.
That said I've never seen someone at Corliss's size play the position the way he did at maybe 6'7
Both great players that we had the honor of calling our own as fans.

[Hawg Red]

What you are arguing are two different things.
Joes talent and God given ability against big nasties accomplishments over full college career.

Joe wins the talent debate every day and twice on Sunday.
Corliss wins the accomplishments with what he was able to do in 4 years at the UofA.

Who is more talented as a basketball player.?
Joe. Who was a greater Razorback? Corliss.

What Joe Johnson can do on a basketball court at 6'8 is nothing short of amazing.
That said I've never seen someone at Corliss's size play the position the way he did at maybe 6'7
Both great players that we had the honor of calling our own as fans.

On a college basketball court, I completely disagree. The talent that Corliss Williamson exhibited in college exceeded the talent that Joe Johnson exhibited. There really is no question or debate.

It almost sounds to me as if you're really talking about versatility more so than talent. What Joe Johnson did actually wasn't all that amazing. Certainly not more amazing than what Corliss Williamson in college. That was truly amazing. Being able to a great variety of things doesn't necessarily make you more talented.

Joe Johnson is a guard. By nature, guards are able to do more things than big men. But big men are often more valuable for a reason.

[Rocky&Boarwinkle]

Corliss wins the accomplishments with what he was able to do in 4 years at the UofA.

Corliss was only here 3 years, but I get the point.

[Big Nasty 34]

What you are arguing are two different things.
Joes talent and God given ability against big nasties accomplishments over full college career.

Joe wins the talent debate every day and twice on Sunday.
Corliss wins the accomplishments with what he was able to do in 4 years at the UofA.

Who is more talented as a basketball player.?
Joe. Who was a greater Razorback? Corliss.

What Joe Johnson can do on a basketball court at 6'8 is nothing short of amazing.
That said I've never seen someone at Corliss's size play the position the way he did at maybe 6'7
Both great players that we had the honor of calling our own as fans.

So, JJ had more talent and yet couldn't match the stats that Corliss put up, while JJ was the only real weapon on his team...
I have always thought Joe underachieved in college. That being said, I would take Big Nasty every day of the week. He has the intangibles JJ doesn't.

[ErieHog]

All time starting 5


Mayberry
Moncrief
Day
Williamson
Miller

Bench:
Beck
Roberstson
Thurman
Hood
Klein
Johnson

And...

Dean Tolson, the forgotten dude.

18.3 ppg -- 4th best in program history
11.0 rpg-  Best in program history ( 3 of our 4 best rebounding seasons ever, period)

If he could have hit a FT to save his life, he might get more consideration for one of our all time greats in the same breath as so many we've mentioned here.

[Rynohog]

Corliss was only here 3 years, but I get the point.

Good call** thanks

[Rynohog]

On a college basketball court, I completely disagree. The talent that Corliss Williamson exhibited in college exceeded the talent that Joe Johnson exhibited. There really is no question or debate.

It almost sounds to me as if you're really talking about versatility more so than talent. What Joe Johnson did actually wasn't all that amazing. Certainly not more amazing than what Corliss Williamson in college. That was truly amazing. Being able to a great variety of things doesn't necessarily make you more talented.

Joe Johnson is a guard. By nature, guards are able to do more things than big men. But big men are often more valuable for a reason.

I can dig what you are saying for sure. I guess I would put it this way. I believe that JJ was bless with more God given natural ability than Corliss. I. Not sure most people would argue that regardless of position, college accomplishments, record of team. I love Corliss but I'm not sure that if I was drafting a  player for a team today and Corliss in his prime and JJ of today were on the board....I'm picking Joe. Just my opinion.

[Big Nasty 34]

I can dig what you are saying for sure. I guess I would put it this way. I believe that JJ was bless with more God given natural ability than Corliss. I. Not sure most people would argue that regardless of position, college accomplishments, record of team. I love Corliss but I'm not sure that if I was drafting a  player for a team today and Corliss in his prime and JJ of today were on the board....I'm picking Joe. Just my opinion.

Yes, JJ in the NBA.... Talking about college here. If this is about NBA, Corliss won't even start

[Hawg Red]

I can dig what you are saying for sure. I guess I would put it this way. I believe that JJ was bless with more God given natural ability than Corliss. I. Not sure most people would argue that regardless of position, college accomplishments, record of team. I love Corliss but I'm not sure that if I was drafting a  player for a team today and Corliss in his prime and JJ of today were on the board....I'm picking Joe. Just my opinion.

As mentioned, this discussion has nothing to do with the NBA. I think 10 times out of 10 a college coach would take Corliss Williamson over Joe Johnson. I think the opposite would be true for the NBA, but that's another discussion. Joe's game translates better to the NBA, Corliss' game translated before to college basketball.

[Nipsey Mussle]

Corliss had more bball ability than JJ ever thought about (And I think JJ is a great player). JJ was a better fit for the nba but that doesn't mean he had more ability. Look at Corliss during the Pistons years, he could score on anyone in the league. Unfortunately, being a tweener caused him to always be in a mis-match on defense.

Look at Jared Sullinger, he was far and away the best player in college basketball. He was drafted what, 10th or so? That's either because he totally lost his ability or height was a problem. You figure it out.

[Hawg Red]

Corliss had more bball ability than JJ ever thought about (And I think JJ is a great player). JJ was a better fit for the nba but that doesn't mean he had more ability. Look at Corliss during the Pistons years, he could score on anyone in the league. Unfortunately, being a tweener caused him to always be in a mis-match on defense.

Look at Jared Sullinger, he was far and away the best player in college basketball. He was drafted what, 10th or so? That's either because he totally lost his ability or height was a problem. You figure it out.

Sullinger went 21st.

[dhornjr1]

Sullinger went 21st.

Yep. NBA teams became concerned about his back and those concerns are what dropped him out of the lottery.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8112497/jared-sullinger-stayed-home-nba-draft-day

Apparently, the apprehension among NBA teams was warranted as his season was cut short due to back problems and he ended up having surgery. Hopefully, that stuff is all behind him now.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/blog/eye-on-basketball/23053090/celtics-jared-sullinger-says-hes-cleared-for-basketball-activities

[Pork Twain]

PG: Lee Mayberry
SG: Sidney Moncrief
SF: Todd Day
PF: Corliss
C: Joe Kleine

G: Corey Beck
G: Jonathan Modica
G: Clint McDaniel
G: Ronnie Brewer
G/F: Joe Johnson
F: Scotty Thurman
C: Oliver Miller

There are about 5-7 more I would really like to include.  I added McDaniel because there was never a better defender to step on the court.

[hawginbigd1]

PG- Beck
SG- OG Brewer
SF- Moncrief
PF- Corliss
C- Big O

Bench:
Walker
Robertson
Thurman
Mayberry
Delph
Terry
Reed, Day, Balentine, McDaniel, Stewart, Klein, or Norton a  Pick 'em for the last spot.

IMO Beck was the MVP of the last great years. Certainly not the most talented player we ever had, but one of the toughest and smartest we have ever had, Nolan would agree with me I bet. Martin Terry and the tripletts began the Arkansas powerhouse, with moncrief being the best and most important player ever on the roster. The second most important player to ever land in Fayetville might be Ron Huery. He began the pipeline that made our NC team come to fruition.

[jusgtohogs]

If you didn't see the triplets play, you just can't tell from stats how good they were.  Any one of the 3 had the ability to 'take the team on their back' on a given night and did.  Especially with Moncrief, I saw the Razorbacks win games that they should not have won because Sidney took the game over.  Just my opinion, but any list without him is incomplete.

[ErieHog]

If you didn't see the triplets play, you just can't tell from stats how good they were.  Any one of the 3 had the ability to 'take the team on their back' on a given night and did.  Especially with Moncrief, I saw the Razorbacks win games that they should not have won because Sidney took the game over.  Just my opinion, but any list without him is incomplete.

It is sort of like the lists that leave off Day and Tolson.    People just tend to go with what they remember most fondly, not what was the best.

[Fatty McGee]

It's irrelevant what the pro scouts think, this isn't about pro potential.
Joe Johnson didn't do enough as a RAZORBACK to earn a vote for all time RAZORBACK. Other players stayed longer, won more games and were better COLLEGE players.

Yeah I get Joe is a really good pro player but I really don't care about the pros, its the least intersting version of basketball.

Joe took a team with not much talent to an SEC Tourney Title.  Joe had the twin problems of no talent around him and a game that made it look like he wasn't trying very hard.  I can't think of another player on Joe's team that would crack the Top 8 of the early 90s teams.

Maybe Pargo on Joe's team his sophomore year.  He's carved out an NBA career that I never saw coming.

[TeedupHigh]

He wasn't better than moncrief that is why he was second. And in my opinion, When Joe Played for Arkansas (Not NBA) He was the 2nd best player we ever had play for us. Corliss was awesome and probably 3rd or 4th Maybe Alvin, Their team definatley had more success. And I know we all love Big Nasty, but he wasn't even close to me talented wise as Joe was WHEN HE PLAYED FOR ARKANSAS. I understand that his team sucked though. It's kind of like Pargo who's go to guy was Dinizio Gomez, but that doesn't mean he wasn't awesome. I know you will all will disagree because of the national championship nostaligia, but Joe Johnson was a better PG and SG than Day or Mayberry as a freshmen, of course his TEAM wasn't as good.

I just don't believe any of this!  JJ was a good player, but a better PG than Mayberry?  SG than Day?  Are you not letting your ARKANSAS eyes get in the way?  Mayberry is the best PG ever, Day could play with anybody and on the Hill Beck was a better leader than JJ.  No way is JJ the 2nd best, no way.  He was lazy on defense but was good on offense, NO WAY THE 2ND BEST, NO WAY!!

[TeedupHigh]

By the way Martin Terry could play the game with anyone on any list.

[sadhogfan]

Moncrief and Williamson are absolute locks in the starting lineup. It's hard to take anyone who disagrees seriously.

Mayberry and Day aren't far behind.

A lot of debate after that.

[sadhogfan]

Oh, and I LOVED Joe Johnson, but he is nowhere near the 2nd best Hog of all time if we're measuring according to college accomplishments (which we should be).

Greatest pro career of any Razorback, but based on college, not even close to top two (he might make a 12-man roster though).

[East TN HAWG]

PG: Lee Mayberry
SG: Sidney Moncrief
SF: Todd Day
PF: Corliss
C: Joe Kleine

G: Corey Beck
G: Jonathan Modica
G: Clint McDaniel
G: Ronnie Brewer
G/F: Joe Johnson
F: Scotty Thurman
C: Oliver Miller

There are about 5-7 more I would really like to include.  I added McDaniel because there was never a better defender to step on the court.

Are you old enough to have watched Walker play? 

[Nashville Fan]

Al 3D illard was one of my all time favorite shooters.

[choppedporkextrasauce]

Oh, and I LOVED Joe Johnson, but he is nowhere near the 2nd best Hog of all time if we're measuring according to college accomplishments (which we should be).

Greatest pro career of any Razorback, but based on college, not even close to top two (he might make a 12-man roster though).

Sidney's career was just as good.

[choppedporkextrasauce]

There are about 5-7 more I would really like to include.  I added McDaniel because there was never a better defender to step on the court.

Sorry guy but yeah there were better defenders for the Hogs.

As someone else mentioned, Darrell Walker. He was hands down the greatest defensive player to ever put on a Hog uniform. You could see the fear in opposing ball handler's as they came up the court. Add in his teammate Alvin Robertson and you had the finest defensive duo in the country. Alvin got so many steals because of Darrell's man to man defense. Props to Keith Wilson as well. He could turn the light off and be in bed before it was dark.

[sadhogfan]

Sidney's career was just as good.

At his peak, Sidney was definitely the pro player that Joe was (maybe better), but injuries (knees I think?) limited him to only about six good seasons, while Joe has had 10 or so.

[thirrdegreetusker]

271 steals, and 102 blocked shots as a wing player say he kind of was.

Day was a good defender, and an extraordinary athlete. Picked up a lot of balls knocked loose by team-mates.

But he wasn't scary on defense, by any means. At UA, he averaged 68 steals per year. Mayberry, Walker and Robertson all averaged over 72 per season.

[choppedporkextrasauce]

Day was a good defender, and an extraordinary athlete. Picked up a lot of balls knocked loose by team-mates.

But he wasn't scary on defense, by any means. At UA, he averaged 68 steals per year. Mayberry, Walker and Robertson all averaged over 72 per season.

pretty darned good coming from a wing position, Of course Mayberry, Walker and Robertson were guards, and first line of defense in the press.
Day had to be encouraged by Nolan, and Day took it to heart.

[UNCLE BACK]

Talent Wise
Fortson
Day
Moncrief
Williamson
O.Miller

[Boston RedHogs]

This is a great thread, but I'm surprised Clint McDaniel's name hasn't appeared more often.  He and Moncrief are arguably the two best lock-down defenders to ever were a Hog uniform.

It also just feels like Al Dillard should be on this list if ONLY for his deadly marksmanship.  That dude was money....

[Hawg Red]

At his peak, Sidney was definitely the pro player that Joe was (maybe better), but injuries (knees I think?) limited him to only about six good seasons, while Joe has had 10 or so.

5 time All-Star, 2 time DPOY, All-NBA 1st team once, All-NBA 2nd team 4 times, 1st team All-Defense 4 times, 1 time All-Defensive 2nd team for Sidney.

Joe is a 6 time All-Star and made the All-NBA 3rd one time.

If we're comparing peaks, there is no discussion and I don't think Joe will be All-NBA again at this point, so I'd say Sidney has him squarely beat. Joe's had a longer career but I wouldn't say a better career.

Sidney also played in 93 playoff games in a shorter career to Joe's 69.

[71832]

PG: Beck/Mayberry both 1a
SG: Sid, Boot, Alvin
SF:  Johnson, Thurman, Day
PF: Corliss, Terry
C:   Kline, O

Stick to your guns Farresstor I was not aware of your knowledge of the game.
Best Athlete: Alvin or Jumping Jack Schultes

[thirrdegreetusker]

PG: Beck/Mayberry both 1a
SG: Sid, Boot, Alvin
SF:  Johnson, Thurman, Day
PF: Corliss, Terry
C:   Kline, O

Stick to your guns Farresstor I was not aware of your knowledge of the game.
Best Athlete: Alvin or Jumping Jack Schultes

For PF, do you mean Charles Terry?

Athlete? How about Vernon Murphy? Was a fine 6'8" PF, until he graduated. Then it became known he was really 6'4". And the Dallas Cowboys signed him to a free agent contract as a WR. Evidently he was a blue-chip HS WR in Texas, with lots of college football offers but chose basketball.

[71832]

For PF, do you mean Charles Terry?

Athlete? How about Vernon Murphy? Was a fine 6'8" PF, until he graduated. Then it became known he was really 6'4". And the Dallas Cowboys signed him to a free agent contract as a WR. Evidently he was a blue-chip HS WR in Texas, with lots of college football offers but chose basketball.

No Martin Terry, he's been mentioned by several other posters, whom have apparently followed the Hogs as long as I have.
As for the athlete I figured Alvin probably speaks for himself. Jumpin Jack was out of Little Rock I believe and just a little bit excitable, used to drive Eddie nuts, but you want to talk about shear athletic ability he had the most beautiful stride, fast as lighting and if startled I believe he could have jumped over the backboard. We used to sit behind the bench on the saw dust and beg Eddie to put Jack in.

[choppedporkextrasauce]

This is a great thread, but I'm surprised Clint McDaniel's name hasn't appeared more often.  He and Moncrief are arguably the two best lock-down defenders to ever were a Hog uniform.

It also just feels like Al Dillard should be on this list if ONLY for his deadly marksmanship.  That dude was money....

that's not true, Sidney was a great defender but he's not the best lock down defender to ever wear a Razorback uniform.

[thirrdegreetusker]

No Martin Terry, he's been mentioned by several other posters, whom have apparently followed the Hogs as long as I have.
As for the athlete I figured Alvin probably speaks for himself. Jumpin Jack was out of Little Rock I believe and just a little bit excitable, used to drive Eddie nuts, but you want to talk about shear athletic ability he had the most beautiful stride, fast as lighting and if startled I believe he could have jumped over the backboard. We used to sit behind the bench on the saw dust and beg Eddie to put Jack in.

Martin Terry was not a power forward. He was a shooting guard. Took over 900 shots in a two-year UA career.

[Boston RedHogs]

that's not true, Sidney was a great defender but he's not the best lock down defender to ever wear a Razorback uniform.

Nice retort.  If you're going to disagree with me the least you can do is offer up an example of some better defenders than Moncrief and McDaniel......

[jseinfeld50]

No Martin Terry, he's been mentioned by several other posters, whom have apparently followed the Hogs as long as I have.
As for the athlete I figured Alvin probably speaks for himself. Jumpin Jack was out of Little Rock I believe and just a little bit excitable, used to drive Eddie nuts, but you want to talk about shear athletic ability he had the most beautiful stride, fast as lighting and if startled I believe he could have jumped over the backboard. We used to sit behind the bench on the saw dust and beg Eddie to put Jack in.

Schulte the 6'8" F/C I think was from MO. yes, Martin Terry was a 6'3" guard who avg around 27 or 28 ppg and he was a 3rd round NBA pick. Not sure why he didn't make it in the NBA unless it was quickness or defense.

[BigSexyHog]

This is a great thread, but I'm surprised Clint McDaniel's name hasn't appeared more often.  He and Moncrief are arguably the two best lock-down defenders to ever were a Hog uniform.

It also just feels like Al Dillard should be on this list if ONLY for his deadly marksmanship.  That dude was money....

Alvin Robertson says hello

[thirrdegreetusker]

Schulte the 6'8" F/C I think was from MO. yes, Martin Terry was a 6'3" guard who avg around 27 or 28 ppg and he was a 3rd round NBA pick. Not sure why he didn't make it in the NBA unless it was quickness or defense.

Don't know where Schulte called home, but he played ball at Subiaco. When we went there to play them, Jack showed up early to the gym in street clothes and chatted with our guys. Seemed very nice. (I not play, I keep stats)

I think Terry was kinda like Thurman. Great shooter, but had trouble creating his own shots against NBA D. And I think he had a knee that was really bad.

[thirrdegreetusker]

For what it is worth, in no particular order

NBA Steals



name              seasons           steals
Mayberry            7                   291
Walker               10                  1090
Robertson           10                 2112
Moncrief             10                  924
Day                    8                    532

[RewAlcindor]

I'm starting to think you guys don't watch basketball. Joe was (co)sec freashman of the year inhalf a season and all-sec both seasons. Joe played within the game and he did with less talent then everyone else that has been metioned. I'm not downing any of the guys that played with Joe but he really wasn't surrounded by all-conference type talent. When we were down against msu I remember Joe not just scoring but taking Tang Hamilton (supposedly the best defender in the sed at the time) to hoop three consecutive possessions and we ended up winning. Did you guys see even one of th games he played against Kentucky? For real any game he played against Kentucky pick one, and he dominated it. I remember Joe going for 30+ and Keith Bogans Tayshun Prince scoring 5 combined. I think Joe averaged 30 against Kentucky. 

...and don't hold Kareem Reid Pat Bradley Derek Hood's lack of post season or NBA success against them they got cheated(the NCAA did a number on us and we're still recovering), but they were the best playmaker shooter(just barely ahead of Pargo) and rebounder in Razorbach history if your talking about a team and not a top players list you have to at least consider them guys.

[maxhog5]

I'm starting to think you guys don't watch basketball. Joe was (co)sec freashman of the year inhalf a season and all-sec both seasons. Joe played within the game and he did with less talent then everyone else that has been metioned. I'm not downing any of the guys that played with Joe but he really wasn't surrounded by all-conference type talent. When we were down against msu I remember Joe not just scoring but taking Tang Hamilton (supposedly the best defender in the sed at the time) to hoop three consecutive possessions and we ended up winning. Did you guys see even one of th games he played against Kentucky? For real any game he played against Kentucky pick one, and he dominated it. I remember Joe going for 30+ and Keith Bogans Tayshun Prince scoring 5 combined. I think Joe averaged 30 against Kentucky. 

...and don't hold Kareem Reid Pat Bradley Derek Hood's lack of post season or NBA success against them they got cheated(the NCAA did a number on us and we're still recovering), but they were the best playmaker shooter(just barely ahead of Pargo) and rebounder in Razorbach history if your talking about a team and not a top players list you have to at least consider them guys.

Watched a lot more college basketball than you have.  So Johnson was all-SEC, the guys you are comparing him to were All-Americans.  Hood, best rebounder ever, what a joke.  Moncrief hands down.  Bradley is in the shooter conversation along with Delph, Michael Young, Al Dilliard and Rotnei Clarke possibly Ricky Norton.  Kareem Reid, don't make me laugh.  I still have nightmares in which the game is on the line, all five defenders are guarding Reid and he pounds the ball for the entire nightmare before throwing up an airball just as I wake up.  Actually the argument has led to a change in my All Razorback team.  Replace Johnson with Walker.   When I put together the team off the top of my head, I thought Johnson had better stats than 14.8 points.  Heck, he isn't even my first alternate, stat sheet stuffer Ronnie Brewer is.  My apologies to Martin Terry.  Didn't see him play so really don't know.  Just a couple of more comments, Robertson was amazing on defense.  He is the best ever.  Leroy Sutton was an awesome lock down defender.  He always got the best scorer no matter position played and shut them down.

[choppedporkextrasauce]

Nice retort.  If you're going to disagree with me the least you can do is offer up an example of some better defenders than Moncrief and McDaniel......

if you'd look back I've posted several time about Walker and Robertson. both better on spot defenders than Sidney as a Hog.

Walker was the best college defensive guard of all the Hogs. Darrell would scare opposing point guards. His senior year he guarded the opponents best player regardless of position. Skywalker was so fun to watch.

[maxhog5]

if you'd look back I've posted several time about Walker and Robertson. both better on spot defenders than Sidney as a Hog.

Walker was the best college defensive guard of all the Hogs. Darrell would scare opposing point guards. His senior year he guarded the opponents best player regardless of position. Skywalker was so fun to watch.

I would go with Robertson over Walker, but goodness gracious whichever one holds the edge it is razor thin.   I never seen any other players disrupt half court offenses like those two could.  Moncrief comes in third as an on the ball defender and was possibly better at ball denial.

[PonderinHog]

Moncrief shut Larry Bird down when he started guarding him in the ISU game.

[71832]

Moncrief shut Larry Bird down when he started guarding him in the ISU game.

Alvin shutup Shaq when he offered to take him out back and show him what a a$$ whoppin looks like.