For All Who Think Lebron Is A Great Humble, Guy

[ErieHog]

I'll be the first to admit, I despise Bonds because of PED's.  But he wasn't a bad player and only a big bat in the line up.  I don't think you can compare or overlap each other's careers, yet.

Wasn't a bad player?

The complete list of guys who won 3 MVPs in either league is super small.  The list of 400 HR 400 SB guys is even smaller-- comprised of Barry Bonds-- even before 1999.  Oh-- and he had 8 Gold Gloves.  He's the only guy to ever do 40/40 clean.

Bill James sums it up nicely in his Abstract, when he says that pre-steroid Bonds is the 2nd or 3rd best hitting LF in history (behind Musial and Williams), the 3rd best base runner (behind Henderson and Raines),  undoubtedly the best defensive LF of all time, and   "While Griffey has always been more popular, Bonds has been a far, far greater player."

In the James weighting system, he ranked the 10 best players of the 90s, with Bonds in the top spot, and Craig Biggio in the #2 spot (and Maddux as #10);  in terms of productivity,  Biggio and Maddux were closer together than Bonds and Biggio.    There was an immense gulf between the best player in the game, and the second best player.

[jry04]

Dude, jry, how old are you? Bonds was the best player on the field most of the time. Defensive liability? Get out of here with that stuff. Wow, just wow

The poster asked if I was rooting for Bonds when he was hitting 73 HRs. Read my posts. I said he was great defensively pre-steroids, so the first 10-12 years of his career up until about 1998. I also said he was great on the base paths. However, once he started using steroids he lost all mobility, and was a defensive liability, and was not a threat to steal. He went from playing his entire career at 185-195lbs to jumping to 220-230. I answered the poster's question on whether I was rooting for Bonds when he was hitting 73 HRs. No, because at that point, he was just a hitter and a defensively liability. By liability, I meant he didn't have the speed to track down balls and didn't make the spectacular catches he did early in his career. It wasn't because he was aging, but because he was 40 lbs heavier due to PED use.

My defensive liability comment wasn't regarding his entire career. It was regarding the year the poster was referring to, in which he was 40 lbs heavier than just 2 seasons before.

[EastexHawg]

What difference does it make whether he was the absolute greatest player, the second best, or the fourth best?  Bonds was still a Hall of Famer.  He set the all-time single season and career home run records.  I think we can at least establish that by any measure he was a great player.

The POINT I made is that fans...including you...don't always love and root for players just because they are outstanding on the court or field.  A lot of people don't like LeBron.  So what?  Do they have some sort of obligation to root for everyone?  They didn't like Kobe, either.  Again...so what?

I don't like or root for LeBron now, and I'm not going to start fondly looking back on him or his career 20 years from now if I'm still around then.

I also don't like Tiger Woods, Johnny Football, and Cam Newton...and I'm not particularly fond of Aaron Rodgers.  I absolutely dislike Bill Belicheck and that won't change no matter how many Super Bowls he wins. 

I bet if you think real hard you can probably come up with some players you don't like, too.  And...I bet every one of them would smoke you like a cigar if you tried to play his sport against him.  Again...so what?  At what point in sports fandom did it become a requirement to like and root for everyone?

[jry04]

What difference does it make whether he was the absolute greatest player, the second best, or the fourth best?  Bonds was still a Hall of Famer.  He set the all-time single season and career home run records.  I think we can at least establish that by any measure he was a great player.

The POINT I made is that fans...including you...don't always love and root for players just because they are outstanding on the court or field.  A lot of people don't like LeBron.  So what?  Do they have some sort of obligation to root for everyone?  They didn't like Kobe, either.  Again...so what?

I don't like or root for LeBron now, and I'm not going to start fondly looking back on him or his career 20 years from now if I'm still around then.

I also don't like Tiger Woods, Johnny Football, and Cam Newton...and I'm not particularly fond of Aaron Rodgers.  I absolutely dislike Bill Belicheck and that won't change no matter how many Super Bowls he wins. 

I bet if you think real hard you can probably come up with some players you don't like, too.  And...I bet every one of them would smoke you like a cigar if you tried to play his sport against him.  Again...so what?  At what point in sports fandom did it become a requirement to like and root for everyone?

I never said you had to like LBJ. I dislike plenty. However, I can recognize greatness. Plenty of people in this thread and that I know in person have said they don't think LBJ is a great player, and the only reasons they can come up with are because he doesn't play in a good conference, he fakes like he is hurt, and he televised his decisions 5 years ago. Those are stupid reasons, in my opinion. Jordan's first ring came in a year that the East had 3 teams under .500 in the playoffs, but nobody talks about that. We can agree to disagree. People can hate on LBJ all they want, but if their reason is because of the decision 5 years ago, it is petty. Back when he first went to Miami people hated him because he passed on the last shot, and he got all of the calls. Now he takes the last shot, and can get slammed to the ground and not get a call.


I cannot stand Kobe, but I realize he is an all-time great. People to this date cannot accept that LBJ will end up one of the all-time greats.

[onebadrubi]

Wasn't a bad player?

The complete list of guys who won 3 MVPs in either league is super small.  The list of 400 HR 400 SB guys is even smaller-- comprised of Barry Bonds-- even before 1999.  Oh-- and he had 8 Gold Gloves.  He's the only guy to ever do 40/40 clean.

Bill James sums it up nicely in his Abstract, when he says that pre-steroid Bonds is the 2nd or 3rd best hitting LF in history (behind Musial and Williams), the 3rd best base runner (behind Henderson and Raines),  undoubtedly the best defensive LF of all time, and   "While Griffey has always been more popular, Bonds has been a far, far greater player."

In the James weighting system, he ranked the 10 best players of the 90s, with Bonds in the top spot, and Craig Biggio in the #2 spot (and Maddux as #10);  in terms of productivity,  Biggio and Maddux were closer together than Bonds and Biggio.    There was an immense gulf between the best player in the game, and the second best player.

My wording might not have been great there.  I'm saying Bonds wasn't a bad overall player that was only in the daily lineup for a big bat later in his career.  We see that happening often and in the AL it's at the DH position.  I'm giving him that credit or disclosure but I still dispise of him because his PeDs use

[Cresthog]

After 1998 Bonds lost his mobility?

That tends to happen when you turn 34 wouldn't ya think?

[EastexHawg]

I couldn't stand Bonds because he was a surly, unlikable a-hole.  For me PEDs are far from the whole story.  I still like Mark McGwire and he was a juicer, too.

[MikePiazza]

I never said you had to like LBJ. I dislike plenty. However, I can recognize greatness. Plenty of people in this thread and that I know in person have said they don't think LBJ is a great player, and the only reasons they can come up with are because he doesn't play in a good conference, he fakes like he is hurt, and he televised his decisions 5 years ago. Those are stupid reasons, in my opinion. Jordan's first ring came in a year that the East had 3 teams under .500 in the playoffs, but nobody talks about that. We can agree to disagree. People can hate on LBJ all they want, but if their reason is because of the decision 5 years ago, it is petty. Back when he first went to Miami people hated him because he passed on the last shot, and he got all of the calls. Now he takes the last shot, and can get slammed to the ground and not get a call.


I cannot stand Kobe, but I realize he is an all-time great. People to this date cannot accept that LBJ will end up one of the all-time greats.

I think most of the people in this thread accept LBJ is already one of the all-time greats, they just don't like him personally, for whatever their reasons are. There's a difference between recognizing greatness and not liking someone.

As for the humble part, LBJ was never going to be humble. He had ESPN at his high school games. He was on the cover of SI when he was 16. He's been told he's going to be the greatest ever ever since then. Humility went out the window a long time ago.

I would venture to guess, however, that the majority of the people in this thread would act similar to LBJ, if not worse, if given his physical attributes and the same scenarios.

[PonderinHog]

I think most of the people in this thread accept LBJ is already one of the all-time greats, they just don't like him personally, for whatever their reasons are. There's a difference between recognizing greatness and not liking someone.

As for the humble part, LBJ was never going to be humble. He had ESPN at his high school games. He was on the cover of SI when he was 16. He's been told he's going to be the greatest ever ever since then. Humility went out the window a long time ago.

I would venture to guess, however, that the majority of the people in this thread would act similar to LBJ, if not worse, if given his physical attributes and the same scenarios.

Considering all the smoke blown up his arse, I'd say he's handled it pretty well.

[jesterzzn]

I would venture to guess, however, that the majority of the people in this thread would act similar to LBJ, if not worse, if given his physical attributes and the same scenarios.

And if Lebron were in our shoes, he'd probably think the guy in Lebron's shoes was a dick.

No telling how I would have acting in his place, but hey, maybe in another life I grew up to be more powerful than Alexander...maybe.

[Lando Calrissian]

And if Lebron were in our shoes, he'd probably think the guy in Lebron's shoes was a dick.

No telling how I would have acting in his place, but hey, maybe in another life I grew up to be more powerful than Alexander...maybe.

He's a dick because he's the best basketball player in the world in almost 3 decades.  Man, what a dick!

[jesterzzn]

He's a dick because he's the best basketball player in the world in almost 3 decades.  Man, what a dick!

He's a dick because of the things he says and does.  Steve Jobs was also a dick.  So is Bono. 

Talent can make a person feel entitled.  Fame magnifies that feeling.  Money reinforces the behaviors that feeling spawns.  Success justifies the behaviors in the minds of many.

It's a messed up culture we live in, but I don't lose any sleep over it.

[husker71]

what is your definition of a dick?? 

[Lando Calrissian]

He's a dick because of the things he says and does.  Steve Jobs was also a dick.  So is Bono. 

Talent can make a person feel entitled.  Fame magnifies that feeling.  Money reinforces the behaviors that feeling spawns.  Success justifies the behaviors in the minds of many.

It's a messed up culture we live in, but I don't lose any sleep over it.

He would prefer to pass to his teammates. What a jerk!

[jesterzzn]

what is your definition of a dick?? 

Kinda like art.  Hard to define, but I know it when I see it.

[husker71]

that's to easy of an out      I am guessing that just because you think  those 3 guys are dicks does not concur with the majority of this board (just my opinion)  I am sure there is somebody out there saying That Mother Teresa she was a real dick   Jobs= successful in 90% or higher to most people Bono (not Chaz) the same   and again the same with LeBron    someone being a dick is very subjective

[Lando Calrissian]

He's automatically a dick because he's the best basketball player on the planet (and his contemporaries agree).

What a dick!

[EastexHawg]

In what world does everyone like everyone else equally?  If that were the case how would you choose a player or a team to root for?

"Who you rooting for, man?"

"Oh, I don't choose sides.  I don't differentiate between people so I'm for both sides equally."

How do you choose friends?  How do you decide who to date and eventually marry?

[Lando Calrissian]

In what world does everyone like everyone else equally?  If that were the case how would you choose a player or a team to root for?

"Who you rooting for, man?"

"Oh, I don't choose sides.  I don't differentiate between people so I'm for both sides equally."

How do you choose friends?  How do you decide who to date and eventually marry?

Do you like the game of basketball or not?

[husker71]

I certainly don't like everybody equally  for instance to me Rajon Rondo now that guy has turned into a dick  BUT I have a friend who insists RR could still be one of the best point guards( not in my top dozen) and that he is just understood.    I did not like Rodman but when he got traded to the Bulls suddenly he was alright with me   funny how that works

[jesterzzn]

He's automatically a dick because he's the best basketball player on the planet (and his contemporaries agree).

What a dick!

Almost, but not quite as big of a dick as some of his fanboys.  His fanboys are definitely more insufferable.  At least Lebron is aware he's a dick and tries to reign it in.

[Kevin]

He is opting out of his contract

[lefty08]

He is opting out of his contract

LOL yep. So much for the hometown boy act. Hahahahahhhahahahhahah. What a pos

[hawgwild child]

In all honesty the reason I hate Lebron is because he is a huge bandwagon for fans. I'm on the opposite and think u should root for a team rather than a player.  I've watched PHX for 12 years now, i ve bought NBA league pass for 5 straight years, I watch more PHX games in one month than a typical Lebron fan will in a season.  I've never seen PHX get to the finals.  I HATE when lebron gets to the playoffs and all a sudden everyone is a Lebron fan when 90% of them couldn't of told u who the starting 5 was for cleavland this year. 

[usf15cc]

In all honesty the reason I hate Lebron is because he is a huge bandwagon for fans. I'm on the opposite and think u should root for a team rather than a player.  I've watched PHX for 12 years now, i ve bought NBA league pass for 5 straight years, I watch more PHX games in one month than a typical Lebron fan will in a season.  I've never seen PHX get to the finals.  I HATE when lebron gets to the playoffs and all a sudden everyone is a Lebron fan when 90% of them couldn't of told u who the starting 5 was for cleavland this year.

Fans of jordan are the same way. Growing up there were a lot of so called bull fans. Now not so much. The NBA is a farce. i root for players not a certain team. Trades and free agency ruin all that for me.

[TomasPistola]

LOL yep. So much for the hometown boy act. Hahahahahhhahahahhahah. What a pos

He's not going anywhere. He's just opting out to max out his contract for this season. Same thing will happen next year. If he's smart he'll take a little less and let the Cavs go out and get him a bench.

[lefty08]

He's not going anywhere. He's just opting out to max out his contract for this season. Same thing will happen next year. If he's smart he'll take a little less and let the Cavs go out and get him a bench.

I wasn't aware that the NBA allowed that. Pretty funny

[TomasPistola]

I wasn't aware that the NBA allowed that. Pretty funny

It was in his contract where he had a player option after the first year. His next contract will definitely have it because the salary cap is expected to climb quite a bit. Cleveland will pay anything to make sure Lebron doesn't take his talents elsewhere.

[lefty08]

It was in his contract where he had a player option after the first year. His next contract will definitely have it because the salary cap is expected to climb quite a bit. Cleveland will pay anything to make sure Lebron doesn't take his talents elsewhere.

Yeah I knew that, just find it funny the NBA would allow a player to opt out so his team can basically go over the cap and then resign the same player to a max deal. Seems like a loophole that could be easily corrected

[ErieHog]

Yeah I knew that, just find it funny the NBA would allow a player to opt out so his team can basically go over the cap and then resign the same player to a max deal. Seems like a loophole that could be easily corrected

Its not a loophole; they become a luxury tax payer, and if they do it repeatedly, a repeat offender, so get kicked in the teeth financially.

[lefty08]

Its not a loophole; they become a luxury tax payer, and if they do it repeatedly, a repeat offender, so get kicked in the teeth financially.

Sorry, when I see phrases like circumventing the rules I think if loopholes

[ErieHog]

Sorry, when I see phrases like circumventing the rules I think if loopholes

Except it doesn't circumvent any rules.

[onebadrubi]

LOL yep. So much for the hometown boy act. Hahahahahhhahahahhahah. What a pos

He was always going to opt out.  It was made public last year.  He's opting out because he can make an additional 2-4 mil next year by doing so. 

[onebadrubi]

Yeah I knew that, just find it funny the NBA would allow a player to opt out so his team can basically go over the cap and then resign the same player to a max deal. Seems like a loophole that could be easily corrected

football and baseball allow for a player option year at the end too, just not as popular

[husker71]

some of you need to take off your "I hate LeBron blinders"  Brian Windhorst (who has covered LeBron since high school) has said LeBron will sign last because this insures that they have enough to sign Tristan Thomas and 1 and maybe 2 free agents   Next year when the cap goes way up James will get his big money   NO way he leaves Cleveland     but he knows Thomas is exactly what they need next to him  (better fit than Love??)

[Lando Calrissian]

some of you need to take off your "I hate LeBron blinders"  Brian Windhorst (who has covered LeBron since high school) has said LeBron will sign last because this insures that they have enough to sign Tristan Thomas and 1 and maybe 2 free agents   Next year when the cap goes way up James will get his big money   NO way he leaves Cleveland     but he knows Thomas is exactly what they need next to him  (better fit than Love??)

You have nailed it. Lebron isn't dumb.

This is just more old codgers looking for another chance to pile on Lebron, the NBA, and what they think basketball should be.

[Cresthog]

Lebron isn't dumb.

You consider the "decision" as an intelligent move? He turned 1/2 or more of the country on him.

I don't care how many plays and darn he can remember, dude has zero tact whatsoever.

[WarPig88]

Wasn't a bad player?

The complete list of guys who won 3 MVPs in either league is super small.  The list of 400 HR 400 SB guys is even smaller-- comprised of Barry Bonds-- even before 1999.  Oh-- and he had 8 Gold Gloves.  He's the only guy to ever do 40/40 clean.

Bill James sums it up nicely in his Abstract, when he says that pre-steroid Bonds is the 2nd or 3rd best hitting LF in history (behind Musial and Williams), the 3rd best base runner (behind Henderson and Raines),  undoubtedly the best defensive LF of all time, and   "While Griffey has always been more popular, Bonds has been a far, far greater player."

In the James weighting system, he ranked the 10 best players of the 90s, with Bonds in the top spot, and Craig Biggio in the #2 spot (and Maddux as #10);  in terms of productivity,  Biggio and Maddux were closer together than Bonds and Biggio.    There was an immense gulf between the best player in the game, and the second best player.

This is laughable. Craig Biggio as the second best player in baseball at any time. LOL. This is why Will Rogers said, "there are lies, damn lies, and statistics."

In his first 13 seasons, Bonds was a sub .300 hitter 7 times. He only averaged 31 home runs and about 85 RBI's.

Those numbers are not a clear cut case for being one of the top 5 all time greatest hitting left fielders at all. There are plenty of guys who could be considered as good or better than that.

Jim Rice averaged almost those exact same numbers for his 16 year career except he blew Bonds away with 113 RBIs per season.

Don't get me wrong, I was a huge Bonds fan pre steroid days. He was a rare commodity but he was not putting up unbelievable numbers as a hitter before he started roiding.

He didn't suck either, just not a clear cut guy for third best hitting left fielder and maybe not for top 5 either.

[WarPig88]

And if Lebron were in our shoes, he'd probably think the guy in Lebron's shoes was a dick.

No telling how I would have acting in his place, but hey, maybe in another life I grew up to be more powerful than Alexander...maybe.

Most of the people I know who don't like Lebron are insecure.

[Hawg Red]

You consider the "decision" as an intelligent move? He turned 1/2 or more of the country on him.

I don't care how many plays and darn he can remember, dude has zero tact whatsoever.

That was also 5 years ago, and he admitted long ago that it was a poor decision on his part. Handled his departure from Miami in a much more classier manner, showing improved maturity and awareness.

As an NBA player and athlete-businessman, no, LeBron is most definitely not dumb.

[jesterzzn]

Most of the people I know who don't like Lebron are insecure.

The types of people likely to share their dislike of an NBA player to anyone and everyone is probably an insecure person, yes.  In the same vein, I think people that feel the need to share how much they like him are probably also insecure.  It's really not the type of subject I can ever imagine having a conversation about with people face to face.

Personally, I don't give a flip about him in my real life and can't think of a single person that told me how they feel about him one way or the other.  To me, it's just throw away message board banter and daytime ESPN muckraking.

[EastexHawg]

Do you like the game of basketball or not?

Only since the days of Chamberlain, West, Maravich, Bob Lanier (since he was wearing his size 22s at St. Bonaventure), Artis Gilmore (I remember watching him play for Jacksonville in college), Oscar Robertson...the original "Big O"...and later the Triplets at Arkansas.  You?

By the way, I loved Dr. J and couldn't stand Danny Ainge.  I downright despised Bill Laimbeer and enjoyed it immensely when Lanier punched his smartass lights out one night.  Is that allowed as a basketball fan?

[MikePiazza]

Only since the days of Chamberlain, West, Maravich, Bob Lanier (since he was wearing his size 22s at St. Bonaventure), Artis Gilmore (I remember watching him play for Jacksonville in college), Oscar Robertson...the original "Big O"...and later the Triplets at Arkansas.  You?

By the way, I loved Dr. J and couldn't stand Danny Ainge. I downright despised Bill Laimbeer and enjoyed it immensely when Lanier punched his smartass lights out one night.  Is that allowed as a basketball fan?

I thought that was Robert Parish?

[EastexHawg]

I thought that was Robert Parish?

I think everyone punched that SOB at one time or another.  Lanier, Parish, Bird...

[EastexHawg]

By the way, if you believe LeBron is doing anything unsurpassed in league history in terms of his "total game", check out Oscar Robertson.  One year he AVERAGED a triple double...30.8 points, 12.5 rebounds, 11.4 assists.

LeBron has to be one of the worst rebounding 6'8" "superstars" of all time.  Charles Barkley was only about 6'5" and pulled down 12-14 per game during his prime.  LeBron's more in the 6-8 range.

He's an outstanding player, but frankly when I watch him play...especially at clutch time in the playoffs...I find myself thinking "for all the hype, I've seen better".  And, I still don't like him regardless of where he ranks all-time.

[Dr. Starcs]

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/13245985/lebron-james-cleveland-cavaliers-says-nightmares-nba-finals-loss

I figured he'd be used to it by now.

[husker71]

Oscar was great and believe me I don't us that word much.  BUT he only won 1 championship and that was when he forced a trade to the Bucks for Charlie Paulk and Flynn Robinson.  All those years in Cincinnati with Jerry Lucas and Wayne Embry and Adrian Smith.  He and Kareem along with Missouri State alum Curtis Perry and the most underrated forward in Bob Dandridge that was a very good front line for that time.  If not for injuries to him and Lucius Allen (who slipped on a warmup jacket) I think they could have won 3 championships.  His lawsuit Robertson vs National Basketball League was instrumental in the ABA NBA merger and players rights.  It is said he was a real prick off the floor

[ErieHog]

Oscar was great and believe me I don't us that word much.  BUT he only won 1 championship and that was when he forced a trade to the Bucks for Charlie Paulk and Flynn Robinson.  All those years in Cincinnati with Jerry Lucas and Wayne Embry and Adrian Smith.  He and Kareem along with Missouri State alum Curtis Perry and the most underrated forward in Bob Dandridge that was a very good front line for that time.  If not for injuries to him and Lucius Allen (who slipped on a warmup jacket) I think they could have won 3 championships.  His lawsuit Robertson vs National Basketball League was instrumental in the ABA NBA merger and players rights.  It is said he was a real prick off the floor

Bill Simmons said this of Oscar, in his book:

'He can't go back home like Russell/Bird in Boston, or Magic/West/Kareem in Los Angeles, or even Willis/Clyde/Ewing in New York, simply because home doesn't exist. He's a historical nomad. He belongs to nobody. And maybe it's better that way. To this day, Oscar remains damaged goods—a victim of his vile racial climate, someone who battled a rare form of post-traumatic stress disorder that can't be defined.

As his teammate during Oscar's prime, you would have respected the hell out of him, you would have felt sorry for him, you would have marveled at him ... but ultimately, I'm not sure you would have enjoyed playing with him that much. This was a man who decided during the epilogue of his book, "Once I heard someone say that in order to write love songs, you have to have been through some bad times. To write a love song, you had to have your heart broken. If that's the case, I can state right here and now that I could write the greatest songs in the world."

Of all the injuries that determined the ninety-six spots of my Pyramid, I can tell you this much: Oscar Robertson's broken heart resonates the most.