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Rank the starting qb's in the NFL

Started by bennyl08, March 29, 2015, 01:33:55 pm

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bennyl08

1. Aaron Rogers: Best quarterback in the league right now and has been for a few years
2. Tom Brady: I would rank him lower, but just won a superbowl largely on his own arm
3. Phillip Rivers: Some consistency issues, largely due to a lack of surrounding cast around him
4. Andrew Luck: Still makes mistakes, but has zero line protection and has to win games all by himself
5. Russel Wilson: Strong defense and run game, but he makes good decisions and has proven he can win games himself too.
6. Drew Brees: Still a very good quarterback, but a lack of recent success drops him a bit, he forced a lot last season
7. Peyton Manning: He really faded down the stretch last season, dropping him some. However, if we were basing it all off of a select grouping of games, Brady could be ranked very low based on how he started the season.
8. Ben Rothlesberger: The superbowls don't lie. He has also been asked to carry this team in the past several seasons and has done so well.
9. Tony Romo: He's a very good quarterback, but he doesn't have much to show for it.
10. Cam Newton: Could probably be rated higher than this. Has improved every year. Single handedly taking this team from the dumps to the playoffs.
11. Joe Flacco: This guy is money in the playoffs, but needs to improve in the regular season. Suffers from a lack of playmakers to throw to.
12. Eli Manning: Probably most overrated qb to win 2 superbowls. The first one he was along for the ride. The second one he won largely off his own arm. However, barring the one truly elite season of his,  he has been an interception machine and has not shown steady improvement.
13. Matt Ryan: Very unlucky quarterback. The guy is a winner and should be rated higher, but a lack of team outside of him and Julio and White has really hurt him.
14. Matthew Stafford: When he's on he's a top 5 quarterback. When he's off he's outside the top 20.
15. Jay Cutler: Similar to Stafford but not quite as high a ceiling. He has shown the ability to be a superbowl winning qb for decent stretches, but just can't stay consistent. 
16. Alex Smith: Underrated qb. Good enough arm, great decision making, and surprising athleticism.
17. Colin Kaepernick: Amazing physical abilities. However, extremely inconsistent and he doesn't consistently improve.
18. Andy Dalton: The most dangerous type of qb on the list. He is good enough to win some games and typically not lose you games. However, he isn't good enough to take over games, especially in the post-season.
19. Carson Palmer: He's probably a bit more left in him, and I think I rated him too low. However, he has some problems with injuries and you can't win if you aren't out on the field.
20. Robert Griffin III: I really thought this year he would right the ship. He has shown as a rookie he can be an above average starting quarterback with potential to be even better. Something needs to be fixed in his head.
21. Ryan Tannehill: Still think he is a WR playing qb more than a qb athletic enough to also play WR. He doesn't show great poise in the pocket IMO and just hasn't really mastered being a qb. Strong arm and athletic, but just doesn't have the mentality to play the position.
22. Sam Bradford: A healthy Bradford has proven to be a top 15 if not higher qb. Especially the last few seasons he has been flirting with top 10 type numbers. However, he can not stay healthy. Granted, Favre probably couldn't stay healthy playing for the Rams like Bradford has. He could excel under Kelly.
23. Nick Foles: Foles has all the makings of a 1 hit wonder. He even said himself he would likely never repeat his amazing half season. He is better right now than some guys above him, but he has likely already peaked. His ceiling is lower than some of these other guys.
24. Matt Cassell: He still has some gas left in his tank, though I probably have him rated a bit too high. He had that nice stretch with the vikes last season before fading hard at the end of the season.
25. Ryan Mallett: Really should be above Cassell. However, Mallett has one and a half games to his name right now. He certainly can move up and I'd be surprised if he wasn't much higher mid-way through the season, but a solid game @ the browns and an admiral performance while injured vs Bengals isn't really enough to go on yet.
26. Teddy Bridgewater: I think he too will move up the rankings in time. He showed some flashes, but made a lot of mistakes.
27. Blake Bortles: see Bridgewater. Bortles has a higher ceiling IMO, but he also has a lower floor.
28. Derick Carr: Similar to the two above. I think he has a pretty low ceiling and a pretty high floor. Bridewater could become a solid top 15 qb, but I think Carr is already close to being as good as he will be. Kind of like a Nick Foles, but less experienced and on a worse team right now.
29. Zach Mettenberger: I think he will hang around as a starter for several more seasons and then even longer as a backup. He looks like a guy who will be in the league for 10 years or so, perhaps going from team to team as a veteran backup eventually.
30. Jameis Winston: It's a foregone conclusion he will be the Buc's starter. However, his lack of even being drafted yet means he can't be put any higher.
31. Geno Smith: The fact that he has played in the NFL is why he is as low as he is. He has shown he isn't an NFL qb.
32. Josh McCown: He really shined two years ago with the bears. However, he had a fairly talented buc's roster and did terrible. Now he is with the browns with currently only Manziel to compete against. He is probably better than some above him, but his situation is dire, and he is getting pretty old.
Quote from: PorkSoda on May 05, 2016, 09:24:05 pm
damn I thought it was only a color, didn't realize it was named after a liqueur. leave it to benny to make me research the history of chartreuse

hvsupastar

As of last year

1. Rodgers
2. Brady

Big drop to number 3
3. Andrew Luck
4. Tony Romo
5. Phillips Rivers
6. Peyton Manning
7. Russell Wilson

3rd tier
8. Matt Ryan
9. Joe Flacco
10. Drew Brees (took worse turn than Manning last year)
11. Matt Stafford
12. Big Ben
13. Cam Newton


The rest could almost be in any order.
"Do not believe everything you read on the internet just because it has quotations next to the image of someone prominent" - Abraham Lincoln

 

Jeff "hogfanintx" Anderson

Any Ranking that doesn't have Big Ben at least top 5 is flawed!
Let's make some waves.

hvsupastar

"Do not believe everything you read on the internet just because it has quotations next to the image of someone prominent" - Abraham Lincoln

HiggiePiggy

Yeah.  I don't see Big Ben in the top 5.  Probably in the 6-15 range.
If a man speaks and no woman is around to hear him, is he still wrong?

Jeff "hogfanintx" Anderson

Let's make some waves.

HiggiePiggy

If you were doing just Super Bowl wins among the qbs today then he would be in the top 5.  I believe it's just Ben, Brady, and  Eli with multiple Super Bowls in the league right now.   
If a man speaks and no woman is around to hear him, is he still wrong?

hvsupastar

Right. And Eli Manning wasn't a top 20 QB the last two seasons, he's been awful. 
"Do not believe everything you read on the internet just because it has quotations next to the image of someone prominent" - Abraham Lincoln

Jeff "hogfanintx" Anderson

Quote from: hvsupastar on April 06, 2015, 10:16:49 am
Right. And Eli Manning wasn't a top 20 QB the last two seasons, he's been awful. 

True. Luckily I wasn't talking about Eli.
Let's make some waves.

bennyl08

Quote from: Jeff "hogfanintx" Anderson on April 03, 2015, 06:08:33 am
Any Ranking that doesn't have Big Ben at least top 5 is flawed!

Who would you lower to raise Ben higher? My take on Ben is that his best success came when he had a great run game and defense to lean on. The same is true for most qbs. Then, when they lost their ability to run so well and their defense was slipping, Ben was statistically able to pick up the slack and started becoming quite the stats guy. However, my knock on him there is that while he rose to the occasion statistically, the steelers became largely irrelevant and weren't winning a lot of games and started missing the playoffs.

Now, for those above him.

Manning: His play faltered down the stretch. Was it just old age, or perhaps some injury and being overworked? At the beginning of the season he was on fire and playing at a top 3 level. Even his faltering play at the end was still IMO top 12 qb type play.

Brees: his play the past bit hasn't been as good either. However, I think that is more a function of the rest of the team deteriorating mor than Brees. He is having to push too hard and take more chances because it is solely up to him. Based off of the past season alone, Big Ben would definitely rank above him. However, this is an attempt to rank them going into next season. That factors in what they have done recently as well as what they have shown over the long term. Put Brees on the Steeler's team and vice versa and I think Brees would do a bit better.

Wilson: this is an interesting one because I think both guys are pretty similar. Rus is getting to lean on his defense and running game, but like Ben, he has shown that he can take over and win the game himself. If asked to, Wilson could be a 4500 yard thrower like Ben IMO. Why then is Rus rated higher? One, he is younger and so is worth more to a team longevity wise. Two, I think he is a smarter player than Ben. Ben has a much stronger arm and can sometimes trust his arm a bit too much. Wilson is a bit more like vintage Brees with his ability to limit turnovers and avoid mistakes. Finally, I think Rus is better at this point in his career than BB was at the same point in his. Switch the two's teams and I think both have good and similar success with the other's team. Therefore, youth gives him the edge.

Luck: Luck is unquestionably a top 5 qb. He has the physical ability but also the mental acuity and leadership that coaches dream about. He throws a lot of picks because there is hardly any talent around him and he has to force things to score points. Remove Luck and the colts don't make the playoffs much less the afc championship. Granted, they weren't really deserving to be there as the Ravens were the better team, but still. If you switch the teams, I think Luck could take the steelers farther than Ben and Ben would struggle to take the colts as far as Luck has, though he would still have them in the playoffs.

Rivers: this one is a bit trickier. Ben has obviously had a lot more success than rivers when it comes to Super Bowls. However, I think Rivers is the better qb. Rivers' recent play over the few seasons has definitely been top 3 qb play, save for when he was injured with his back like Allen was this year. Two, his qb play has been consistently top 10 through his career and he has been able to win a lot of 10+ game seasons without as strong a defense or run game as Ben. I think Ben would do better on a crappy team than Rivers could, but put them both on a good team and Rivers would out play Ben. So, Rivers being this high right now is in part a function of being on a good team with a very good coach. Put both qbs with the Jags and Ben goes higher.

Brady: He is old and can't throw it like he used to. However, he is still paired with the best NFL coach of my lifetime, still has just as large a fire in his chest, and can still disect a defense. Plus, he just won a super bowl with a receiving corp that several college teams wouldn't even trade for. Only reason he is number two right now is because...

Rogers: He is basically a more seasoned Andrew Luck who wasn't forced to play early and on a crappy team. Rogers can make every throw, he was the leading rusher on the team for several years, he rarely has a turnover. I mean, the biggest flaw in his game is that there is only one of him.
Quote from: PorkSoda on May 05, 2016, 09:24:05 pm
damn I thought it was only a color, didn't realize it was named after a liqueur. leave it to benny to make me research the history of chartreuse

Jeff "hogfanintx" Anderson

Quote from: bennyl08 on April 23, 2015, 10:49:14 am
Who would you lower to raise Ben higher? My take on Ben is that his best success came when he had a great run game and defense to lean on. The same is true for most qbs. Then, when they lost their ability to run so well and their defense was slipping, Ben was statistically able to pick up the slack and started becoming quite the stats guy. However, my knock on him there is that while he rose to the occasion statistically, the steelers became largely irrelevant and weren't winning a lot of games and started missing the playoffs.

Now, for those above him.

Manning: His play faltered down the stretch. Was it just old age, or perhaps some injury and being overworked? At the beginning of the season he was on fire and playing at a top 3 level. Even his faltering play at the end was still IMO top 12 qb type play.

Brees: his play the past bit hasn't been as good either. However, I think that is more a function of the rest of the team deteriorating mor than Brees. He is having to push too hard and take more chances because it is solely up to him. Based off of the past season alone, Big Ben would definitely rank above him. However, this is an attempt to rank them going into next season. That factors in what they have done recently as well as what they have shown over the long term. Put Brees on the Steeler's team and vice versa and I think Brees would do a bit better.

Wilson: this is an interesting one because I think both guys are pretty similar. Rus is getting to lean on his defense and running game, but like Ben, he has shown that he can take over and win the game himself. If asked to, Wilson could be a 4500 yard thrower like Ben IMO. Why then is Rus rated higher? One, he is younger and so is worth more to a team longevity wise. Two, I think he is a smarter player than Ben. Ben has a much stronger arm and can sometimes trust his arm a bit too much. Wilson is a bit more like vintage Brees with his ability to limit turnovers and avoid mistakes. Finally, I think Rus is better at this point in his career than BB was at the same point in his. Switch the two's teams and I think both have good and similar success with the other's team. Therefore, youth gives him the edge.

Luck: Luck is unquestionably a top 5 qb. He has the physical ability but also the mental acuity and leadership that coaches dream about. He throws a lot of picks because there is hardly any talent around him and he has to force things to score points. Remove Luck and the colts don't make the playoffs much less the afc championship. Granted, they weren't really deserving to be there as the Ravens were the better team, but still. If you switch the teams, I think Luck could take the steelers farther than Ben and Ben would struggle to take the colts as far as Luck has, though he would still have them in the playoffs.

Rivers: this one is a bit trickier. Ben has obviously had a lot more success than rivers when it comes to Super Bowls. However, I think Rivers is the better qb. Rivers' recent play over the few seasons has definitely been top 3 qb play, save for when he was injured with his back like Allen was this year. Two, his qb play has been consistently top 10 through his career and he has been able to win a lot of 10+ game seasons without as strong a defense or run game as Ben. I think Ben would do better on a crappy team than Rivers could, but put them both on a good team and Rivers would out play Ben. So, Rivers being this high right now is in part a function of being on a good team with a very good coach. Put both qbs with the Jags and Ben goes higher.

Brady: He is old and can't throw it like he used to. However, he is still paired with the best NFL coach of my lifetime, still has just as large a fire in his chest, and can still disect a defense. Plus, he just won a super bowl with a receiving corp that several college teams wouldn't even trade for. Only reason he is number two right now is because...

Rogers: He is basically a more seasoned Andrew Luck who wasn't forced to play early and on a crappy team. Rogers can make every throw, he was the leading rusher on the team for several years, he rarely has a turnover. I mean, the biggest flaw in his game is that there is only one of him.

Personally I wouldn't be lowering him at all.
I have Rodgers 1
Brady 2
Big Ben 3.

Honestly I don't think it's even close that the others be ahead of him.  I think Luck will certainly pass him by at some point, but not yet.

You said Wilson has proven he could win games by himself.  I haven't seen that. Steelers defense was atrocious last year. I was at Heinz Field last year and witnessed the 6 td passes and over 500 yards from Ben in that game.  He promptly followed that up by throwing 6 the next week against Baltimore.

Brees I might put with him at a tie for #3

Rivers is the real deal also would probably put him #4

Don't know where I would put Peyton at this point.
Let's make some waves.

bennyl08

Quote from: Jeff "hogfanintx" Anderson on April 25, 2015, 06:48:31 am
Personally I wouldn't be lowering him at all.
I have Rodgers 1
Brady 2
Big Ben 3.

Honestly I don't think it's even close that the others be ahead of him.  I think Luck will certainly pass him by at some point, but not yet.

You said Wilson has proven he could win games by himself.  I haven't seen that. Steelers defense was atrocious last year. I was at Heinz Field last year and witnessed the 6 td passes and over 500 yards from Ben in that game.  He promptly followed that up by throwing 6 the next week against Baltimore.

Brees I might put with him at a tie for #3

Rivers is the real deal also would probably put him #4

Don't know where I would put Peyton at this point.

Yeah, that's what makes ranking like this very difficult. How much do you weight past successes, how much do you weight future value? How do you do so consistently for each player? Definitely some of Russel's rankings come from future values. However, if we are talking about ranking quarterbacks over the next 5 years, I'd had luck over brady and Manning would be lower. That is part of what makes lists like these both completely useless and arbitrary as well as fun to debate.
Quote from: PorkSoda on May 05, 2016, 09:24:05 pm
damn I thought it was only a color, didn't realize it was named after a liqueur. leave it to benny to make me research the history of chartreuse

ErieHog

I'd lift Luck to a clear third,  Manning to a clear 5th-- put Rivers 6th,  drop Cam and Eli at least 5 spots each,  and drop Cutler 10.

There is zero chance that Bridgewater isn't a better NFL QB right now than Matt Cassel (better yards per attempt, better yards per completion, a 50% lower interception rate, completed about 8% more of his passes)-- and a number of other suspects in that 20-25 range.

Tannehill is also underrated, given his actual performance.   Seems like a ton of guys without extensive track records are being ranked over guys with better performance records.

No cause, ever, in the history of all mankind, has produced more cold-blooded tyrants, more slaughtered innocents, and more orphans than socialism with power. It surpassed, exponentially, all other systems of production in turning out the dead. The bodies are all around us. And here is the problem: No one talks about them. No one honors them. No one does penance for them. No one has committed suicide for having been an apologist for those who did this to them. No one pays for them. No one is hunted down to account for them. It is exactly what Solzhenitsyn foresaw in The Gulag Archipelago: "No, no one would have to answer. No one would be looked into." Until that happens, there is no "after socialism."

 

Dr. Starcs

Erie!  Check your pm and help me out please.

bennyl08

Quote from: ErieHog on April 25, 2015, 05:54:09 pm
I'd lift Luck to a clear third,  Manning to a clear 5th-- put Rivers 6th,  drop Cam and Eli at least 5 spots each,  and drop Cutler 10.

There is zero chance that Bridgewater isn't a better NFL QB right now than Matt Cassel (better yards per attempt, better yards per completion, a 50% lower interception rate, completed about 8% more of his passes)-- and a number of other suspects in that 20-25 range.

Tannehill is also underrated, given his actual performance.   Seems like a ton of guys without extensive track records are being ranked over guys with better performance records.

Manning over Rivers? Por que?

Dropping Eli I can certainly understand. I think he is overrated, and one could easily argue having him lower on my list. However, I'm not seeing what you are with Cam. IMO, there is not a single quarterback below him on my list that I would rather have for a play, drive, game, season, or for the next 5+ years than Cam. There is also not really any quarterback above him that I would rather have Cam, save for the next 5+ years option. Brady, Manning, and Brees are always questionable at that time frame. Also, I think Wilson has the lower ceiling than Cam so in 5 years time, Cam could surpass him, though right now I'd take Rus hands down.

Drop Cutler 10? Why? Cutler is a very underrated qb. The only guys below him that I might rather have than him are those who only have a year or less of starting experience, which is why they are ranked low. He is a gun slinger so he throws a few more picks than other guys, but he also gets the ball to places a lot of other qb's can't. When Chicago had a good defense, their OC was inept, now they have a solid offense and their defense is atrocious.

I would much rather have Bridgewater over Cassell in terms of the 5 year period. However, Matt has a much larger sample size to work off of. You know what you are getting with him. Teddy has like half a season, and the rookie season at that. I think he was a steal for the Vikes and the best qb in that draft, but I'd take the veteran over him if I needed a fourth quarter winning drive. Plus, for all we know Bridgewater could hit a wall next year as so many sophomores do and then just never recover a la RG3 so far. Next year Cassell probably won't be on this list and Teddy will be closer to 15 if things go as I predict. However, for now I have to put Cassell ahead.

Very much disagree with Tannehill. I think he is a below average qb. In fact, I actually ranked him a bit higher than I truly feel he should be because he puts up numbers, but his play doesn't reflect them. I'd take a healthy Bradford over Tannehill any day, but RT is higher because a healthy Bradford is rare. He is a poor man's Kaepernick and Kaepernick hasn't been all that great either.
Quote from: PorkSoda on May 05, 2016, 09:24:05 pm
damn I thought it was only a color, didn't realize it was named after a liqueur. leave it to benny to make me research the history of chartreuse

Jeff "hogfanintx" Anderson

Not sure I'm getting all the Cam talk. He wouldn't be in my top 15.  Would have to give serious thought to have him in my top 20
Let's make some waves.

bennyl08

Quote from: Jeff "hogfanintx" Anderson on April 28, 2015, 09:14:26 pm
Not sure I'm getting all the Cam talk. He wouldn't be in my top 15.  Would have to give serious thought to have him in my top 20

Fair enough. To me, he stands tall in the pocket, has an accurate and powerful arm. He reads defenses well enough given his youth. He can hurt you with his legs, and he is flat out a winner. It's like Cutler has the talent to be a top 5, but he doesn't have that winner instinct. Cam does. He took a team that was arguably worse than what Luck took over and has them in the playoffs in back to back years. Plus, he has played well in the post-season and most importantly, improved each and every season. Even when their entire roster fell apart this season, Cam almost singlehandedly took them to the post season, actually won a game, and then even though they lost 31-17 vs the seahawks, Cam played a good game. He still has room for improvement but when he is on point, he is as good as as those at the top of the list, and each year the times he isn't on point gets smaller and smaller.
Quote from: PorkSoda on May 05, 2016, 09:24:05 pm
damn I thought it was only a color, didn't realize it was named after a liqueur. leave it to benny to make me research the history of chartreuse

ErieHog

Quote from: bennyl08 on April 28, 2015, 09:09:08 pm
Manning over Rivers? Por que?

Dropping Eli I can certainly understand. I think he is overrated, and one could easily argue having him lower on my list. However, I'm not seeing what you are with Cam. IMO, there is not a single quarterback below him on my list that I would rather have for a play, drive, game, season, or for the next 5+ years than Cam. There is also not really any quarterback above him that I would rather have Cam, save for the next 5+ years option. Brady, Manning, and Brees are always questionable at that time frame. Also, I think Wilson has the lower ceiling than Cam so in 5 years time, Cam could surpass him, though right now I'd take Rus hands down.

Drop Cutler 10? Why? Cutler is a very underrated qb. The only guys below him that I might rather have than him are those who only have a year or less of starting experience, which is why they are ranked low. He is a gun slinger so he throws a few more picks than other guys, but he also gets the ball to places a lot of other qb's can't. When Chicago had a good defense, their OC was inept, now they have a solid offense and their defense is atrocious.

I would much rather have Bridgewater over Cassell in terms of the 5 year period. However, Matt has a much larger sample size to work off of. You know what you are getting with him. Teddy has like half a season, and the rookie season at that. I think he was a steal for the Vikes and the best qb in that draft, but I'd take the veteran over him if I needed a fourth quarter winning drive. Plus, for all we know Bridgewater could hit a wall next year as so many sophomores do and then just never recover a la RG3 so far. Next year Cassell probably won't be on this list and Teddy will be closer to 15 if things go as I predict. However, for now I have to put Cassell ahead.

Very much disagree with Tannehill. I think he is a below average qb. In fact, I actually ranked him a bit higher than I truly feel he should be because he puts up numbers, but his play doesn't reflect them. I'd take a healthy Bradford over Tannehill any day, but RT is higher because a healthy Bradford is rare. He is a poor man's Kaepernick and Kaepernick hasn't been all that great either.

A few things-- yes,  as much as I hate him, I still take Peyton Manning over Phillip Rivers, without even blinking.   Maybe that changes if Manning can't get healthy again-- but in a vacuum right now, I take Manning, no questions asked.

Cam is probably the most divisive guy in the league;  I'm firmly on the other side of the divide  from you;  I'd take anyone in your Top 19 over him in the described situation, minus Cutler, I think, and potentially Eli.  Cam will never play in a Super Bowl, and Russell has been in two-- I think that is as stark a divider as I need, to put him in a different, lesser class than Russell-- who gets unjustly knocked for the Seahawks having a great defense,  when he is a very efficient QB.

As for dropping Cutler 10, it is all about turnovers, and the confidence that you can win a big game with him as your QB.   Throw in his price tag, and there is no way he belongs any higher than 20th in the game-- and that's mostly only due to there being a number of younger, unproven QBs, and a few well documented basket cases.

Cassell doesn't have an enormous sample size to work off of, that is recent-- and even last year, was clearly outperformed by Bridgewater --and could not unseat the rookie, once he took the job.  Oh- and Bridgewater, in 3/4ths of a season, has as many 4th quarter game winning drives in his career as Cassell in his entire career.   I saw that the other day, and it floored me.  Bridgewater, unlike RG3, has no major injuries, and his play improved consistently with added repetitions and experience.     He's altered the way he uses his mobility as a pro, already.

Tannehill is a pretty divisive guy;  I'm a critic of Kapernick, and call him a poor ma's Tannehill-- so its probably a fair condemnation of both players. 
No cause, ever, in the history of all mankind, has produced more cold-blooded tyrants, more slaughtered innocents, and more orphans than socialism with power. It surpassed, exponentially, all other systems of production in turning out the dead. The bodies are all around us. And here is the problem: No one talks about them. No one honors them. No one does penance for them. No one has committed suicide for having been an apologist for those who did this to them. No one pays for them. No one is hunted down to account for them. It is exactly what Solzhenitsyn foresaw in The Gulag Archipelago: "No, no one would have to answer. No one would be looked into." Until that happens, there is no "after socialism."

bennyl08

Quote from: ErieHog on April 29, 2015, 01:11:24 pm
A few things-- yes,  as much as I hate him, I still take Peyton Manning over Phillip Rivers, without even blinking.   Maybe that changes if Manning can't get healthy again-- but in a vacuum right now, I take Manning, no questions asked.

Cam is probably the most divisive guy in the league;  I'm firmly on the other side of the divide  from you;  I'd take anyone in your Top 19 over him in the described situation, minus Cutler, I think, and potentially Eli.  Cam will never play in a Super Bowl, and Russell has been in two-- I think that is as stark a divider as I need, to put him in a different, lesser class than Russell-- who gets unjustly knocked for the Seahawks having a great defense,  when he is a very efficient QB.

As for dropping Cutler 10, it is all about turnovers, and the confidence that you can win a big game with him as your QB.   Throw in his price tag, and there is no way he belongs any higher than 20th in the game-- and that's mostly only due to there being a number of younger, unproven QBs, and a few well documented basket cases.

Cassell doesn't have an enormous sample size to work off of, that is recent-- and even last year, was clearly outperformed by Bridgewater --and could not unseat the rookie, once he took the job.  Oh- and Bridgewater, in 3/4ths of a season, has as many 4th quarter game winning drives in his career as Cassell in his entire career.   I saw that the other day, and it floored me.  Bridgewater, unlike RG3, has no major injuries, and his play improved consistently with added repetitions and experience.     He's altered the way he uses his mobility as a pro, already.

Tannehill is a pretty divisive guy;  I'm a critic of Kapernick, and call him a poor ma's Tannehill-- so its probably a fair condemnation of both players.

Fair enough, I appreciate the response.
Quote from: PorkSoda on May 05, 2016, 09:24:05 pm
damn I thought it was only a color, didn't realize it was named after a liqueur. leave it to benny to make me research the history of chartreuse

Jeff "hogfanintx" Anderson

Dec 20th I will get to watch Big Ben and Steelers against Manning and Broncos at Heinz Field.  Can't wait.

Assuming they are both still healthy enough to be playing!
Let's make some waves.

bennyl08

Quote from: Jeff "hogfanintx" Anderson on April 30, 2015, 12:31:47 pm
Dec 20th I will get to watch Big Ben and Steelers against Manning and Broncos at Heinz Field.  Can't wait.

Assuming they are both still healthy enough to be playing!

IIRC the Steelers and the Panthers are coming to Seattle so I may have to shell of some money and go see another game.
Quote from: PorkSoda on May 05, 2016, 09:24:05 pm
damn I thought it was only a color, didn't realize it was named after a liqueur. leave it to benny to make me research the history of chartreuse

Jeff "hogfanintx" Anderson

Analyst ranks Ben Roethlisberger as the NFL's No. 3 QB

Pittsburgh Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger is getting some recognition as one of the NFL's very best quarterbacks coming off his strong 2014 season.

Roethlisberger was rated as the NFL's No. 3 quarterback heading into the 2015 season by analyst Elliot Harrison of NFL Media.

Hmmmmm sounds about like what I have been saying :)
Let's make some waves.

EastexHawg

Since a QB's primary job is passing the football...I prefer guys who can actually throw it rather than just proficient hander-offers...I think this may be pertinent...

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_rating_career.htm

The only reasons the guy sitting in second on that list isn't rated higher are:

1. Poor supporting cast for most of his career;
2. Prejudice based on the team for which he plays; and
3. Ignorance among his team's own fan base

Otherwise, it is impossible to explain why a QB who has passed the football more efficiently...i.e., better...than all but one other QB in the history of the league finds himself rated somewhere in the vicinity of 10th place among the batch of QBs playing today.

Russell Wilson?  Please.  There is also an inexplicable love affair with Phillip Rivers.  His numbers aren't as good as Romo's...and...what has he ever won as a pro?  If that's the knock against Romo, how does Rivers get a pass?

bennyl08

Quote from: EastexHawg on May 20, 2015, 09:37:16 am
Since a QB's primary job is passing the football...I prefer guys who can actually throw it rather than just proficient hander-offers...I think this may be pertinent...

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_rating_career.htm

The only reasons the guy sitting in second on that list isn't rated higher are:

1. Poor supporting cast for most of his career;
2. Prejudice based on the team for which he plays; and
3. Ignorance among his team's own fan base

Otherwise, it is impossible to explain why a QB who has passed the football more efficiently...i.e., better...than all but one other QB in the history of the league finds himself rated somewhere in the vicinity of 10th place among the batch of QBs playing today.

Russell Wilson?  Please.  There is also an inexplicable love affair with Phillip Rivers.  His numbers aren't as good as Romo's...and...what has he ever won as a pro?  If that's the knock against Romo, how does Rivers get a pass?

Romo is a generally underrated quarterback, for sure. However, you link to passing efficiency which usually favors hander-offers. A quarterbacks primary responsibility is passing the ball, so what I weight the heaviest is a quarterback's arm. Can he make every throw and do with with enough zip on the ball that the defense doesn't have much time to react. Two, is he accurate with his throws and making sure his receivers can catch the ball. Three, does he make good decisions about throwing the ball, this includes pre-snap and post-snap. Thirdly, does he win, and finally, can he extend plays and avoid the rush and possibly do some damage on the ground himself.

Romo actually has all of that save for some of the decision making/game winning. Rogers and Brees have generally played with poor defenses, running games, and offensive lines. Usually that is the reason their teams struggle to win the superbowl. However, the quarterback still gets them to the playoffs almost every single year. Outside of Jimmy Graham who Brees has only recently been able to throw to a la Romo and Dez, he hasn't had any star receivers, yet he still almost always had the saints as a genuine contender in the playoffs. That is the biggest knock on Romo. It isn't like he has been going up against the steelers in his division. He couldn't get into the playoffs over a Giants team that lost to a Rex Grossmen led Redskins team, twice. A good quarterback makes the guys around him look better than they are. While Romo is a good quarterback, he doesn't do that.

Rivers is 4-5 in the playoffs vs Romo's 2-4. That is the difference. Since qbr is the measuring stick you brought, River's rating is less than 2 points below Romo's and he has had a good bit more playoff success. Moreover, Rivers has a lot more individual seasons in the top rankings of efficiency than Romo. Plus, there is more to football than just stats. Rivers is manning-esque in his ability to read defenses and make checks at the line. Romo has only recently been given the trust of the coaching staff to do that. Speaking of passer ratings, you are going to knock Wilson, one of the most efficient quarterbacks in the game today? Did not say that having a better passer efficiency rating meant that you passed the football better than the other guys? For guys with 300+ attempts, he was 4th in 2012, his rookie season, 5th in 2013, and 9th this year with receivers that wouldn't make the practice squad on the worst of Romo's supporting cast. How are you going to argue that Romo's qbr is proof of his superiority at qb and then completely ignore Wilson's? Wilson has also accounted for more yards than Romo has the past two seasons despite his label as being just a game manager and not a playmaker.

Romo is a good quarterback, but nobody is in the same tier as Aaron Rogers right now (whose career qbr is almost a full 10 points above Romo's which is absolutely insane), and I simply can't put him in the same tier as guys like Brees, Brady, and Roethlesberger. He is certainly in that next tier and could be argued as high as 6, but he simply doesn't have the resume that the guys above him do. CJ2K put up some crazy numbers in his day, but he will likely never be mentioned in the conversation about best runningbacks.
Quote from: PorkSoda on May 05, 2016, 09:24:05 pm
damn I thought it was only a color, didn't realize it was named after a liqueur. leave it to benny to make me research the history of chartreuse

 

EastexHawg

May 20, 2015, 03:30:49 pm #24 Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 03:56:30 pm by EastexHawg
Quote from: bennyl08 on May 20, 2015, 10:40:08 am
Romo is a generally underrated quarterback, for sure. However, you link to passing efficiency which usually favors hander-offers. A quarterbacks primary responsibility is passing the ball, so what I weight the heaviest is a quarterback's arm. Can he make every throw and do with with enough zip on the ball that the defense doesn't have much time to react. Two, is he accurate with his throws and making sure his receivers can catch the ball. Three, does he make good decisions about throwing the ball, this includes pre-snap and post-snap. Thirdly, does he win, and finally, can he extend plays and avoid the rush and possibly do some damage on the ground himself.

Romo actually has all of that save for some of the decision making/game winning. Rogers and Brees have generally played with poor defenses, running games, and offensive lines. Usually that is the reason their teams struggle to win the superbowl. However, the quarterback still gets them to the playoffs almost every single year. Outside of Jimmy Graham who Brees has only recently been able to throw to a la Romo and Dez, he hasn't had any star receivers, yet he still almost always had the saints as a genuine contender in the playoffs. That is the biggest knock on Romo. It isn't like he has been going up against the steelers in his division. He couldn't get into the playoffs over a Giants team that lost to a Rex Grossmen led Redskins team, twice. A good quarterback makes the guys around him look better than they are. While Romo is a good quarterback, he doesn't do that.

Rivers is 4-5 in the playoffs vs Romo's 2-4. That is the difference. Since qbr is the measuring stick you brought, River's rating is less than 2 points below Romo's and he has had a good bit more playoff success. Moreover, Rivers has a lot more individual seasons in the top rankings of efficiency than Romo. Plus, there is more to football than just stats. Rivers is manning-esque in his ability to read defenses and make checks at the line. Romo has only recently been given the trust of the coaching staff to do that. Speaking of passer ratings, you are going to knock Wilson, one of the most efficient quarterbacks in the game today? Did not say that having a better passer efficiency rating meant that you passed the football better than the other guys? For guys with 300+ attempts, he was 4th in 2012, his rookie season, 5th in 2013, and 9th this year with receivers that wouldn't make the practice squad on the worst of Romo's supporting cast. How are you going to argue that Romo's qbr is proof of his superiority at qb and then completely ignore Wilson's? Wilson has also accounted for more yards than Romo has the past two seasons despite his label as being just a game manager and not a playmaker.

Romo is a good quarterback, but nobody is in the same tier as Aaron Rogers right now (whose career qbr is almost a full 10 points above Romo's which is absolutely insane), and I simply can't put him in the same tier as guys like Brees, Brady, and Roethlesberger. He is certainly in that next tier and could be argued as high as 6, but he simply doesn't have the resume that the guys above him do. CJ2K put up some crazy numbers in his day, but he will likely never be mentioned in the conversation about best runningbacks.

Romo led the NFL in passer rating in the most recent season completed.  He is accurate, as evidenced by the fact that he led the league in completion percentage.  He can also make "all the throws", including down the field as opposed to dink and dunk, as evidenced by the fact that he led the NFL in yards per attempt.

Romo threw 5 TD passes and 0 interceptions in the playoffs this past year.  He also put the ball on Dez on a crucial late 4th down play for what should have been (or should have set up) the winning score to beat Rodgers and the Packers in Green Bay and get back to Seattle, where they had already beaten the Seahawks earlier in the season.

How many turnovers did Russell Wilson have in the playoffs?

You talk about Romo not being "clutch" in that the Cowboys haven't made the playoffs much during his career.  In crunch time he has outperformed other QBs, despite the reputation/anecdotes otherwise, as evidenced by the fact that he has the highest December passer rating in NFL since 2009...and that he set the all-time league record with a ridiculous rating above 133 in December of last year as the Cowboys sealed the division championship.  He threw 12 TDs and one interception during a 4-0 December.  Combine that with his playoff performances and the guy who "chokes in the clutch" put up 17 TDs and 1 pick down the stretch.

But that's only the most recent reason, and after all we're rating QBs based on...what?  If it's past seasons I want to nominate Otto Graham and Joe Montana.

I didn't write this...but I wish I had.  The clueless tweets only underscore my point about idiot fans who not only don't know, but would care if they did know, the facts.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1877753-fair-or-unfair-the-month-of-december-could-make-or-break-tony-romo

bennyl08

If you read the thread you would know what it is being based on. Since you asked the question, I'm guessing you haven't read the thread.

At least for me, it is based on a combination of things. What a player has accomplished over his entire career, what a player has accomplished recently, what a player is projected to do next year, and what they are projected to do over the next 5 years.

If it was just over the next 5 years, Peyton, Brees, and Brady would be much lower. If it was just over their entire careers, Luck and Wilson and others would be much lower. If it was just last season, Romo would be higher.
Quote from: PorkSoda on May 05, 2016, 09:24:05 pm
damn I thought it was only a color, didn't realize it was named after a liqueur. leave it to benny to make me research the history of chartreuse

EastexHawg

May 20, 2015, 08:20:07 pm #26 Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 10:14:46 pm by EastexHawg
Quote from: bennyl08 on May 20, 2015, 07:17:57 pm
If you read the thread you would know what it is being based on. Since you asked the question, I'm guessing you haven't read the thread.

At least for me, it is based on a combination of things. What a player has accomplished over his entire career, what a player has accomplished recently, what a player is projected to do next year, and what they are projected to do over the next 5 years.

If it was just over the next 5 years, Peyton, Brees, and Brady would be much lower. If it was just over their entire careers, Luck and Wilson and others would be much lower. If it was just last season, Romo would be higher.

Romo has the second highest passer rating of all time.   That's for his entire career.  He led the league in most of the passer ratios, including overall passer rating, last year.  I can't argue what he will or won't do in the future.  Well, actually I could...but guessing isn't really my thing.

As a lifelong Cowboys fan I simply get sick of the mouth breathers who utter moronic stuff like "The first thing they need to do is bench Romo.  He's holding Dallas back."  They cling to their interception anecdotes as if other top QBs never throw them.  They disregard stats because they are too ignorant to realize they are not made up in a lab, but rather factual measures of what a player did on the field.

I'm not talking to anyone on this board, I'm talking about dumbarses in general.  I was at a family get together on Thanksgiving a few years ago when one of the guests yelled,  "Get Romo out of there!  Put Kitna in" as soon as Romo got sacked for the first time.  People that stupid should be colonized on a remote island as a service to mankind and the gene pool.

bennyl08

Fair enough. I can certainly relate to that mindset and agree those that think Dallas can do better are silly. It is very hard to replace a top 10 quarterback. It's just that I do knock Romo down a few spots relative to his stats because I've seen other quarterbacks get their team to the playoffs with greatly inferior talent. Look at Andrew Luck and Cam Newton. The colts are still a greatly talent deficient team, especially his first year. He had no o-line and like Romo most of his career had to run for his life nearly every snap, no running, no receiving corp, and no defense so as a rookie he had simply outscore the other team, which he did enough to make the playoffs. Cam Newton took a team that was also very bad and brought them to the post-season as well (Note, I do have Newton below Romo in my rankings, largely due to Romo being a better passer).

His stats alone put him in the top 10. His stats combined with the adversity he has had to go through puts him even higher, but his inability to raise the level of his teammates and consistently get his team to the playoffs keeps just inside the top 10.
Quote from: PorkSoda on May 05, 2016, 09:24:05 pm
damn I thought it was only a color, didn't realize it was named after a liqueur. leave it to benny to make me research the history of chartreuse