Court rules Game Wardens do not have Unbridled discretion to stop you.

[DeltaBoy]

http:// [[[Stop spamming your site, Eric.]]] .com/news/arkansas/court-game-wardens-don-t-have-unbridled-discretion-stop-hunters


LITTLE ROCK — Arkansas game wardens do not have 'unbridled discretion' in choosing when to stop hunters, the state Court of Appeals said Wednesday.

A nine-judge panel of the court found in a 6-3 decision that wardens violated the constitutional rights of Jimmy Paul Pickle when they stopped, detained and searched him while he and two other people were duck hunting on a lake on the Cache River in Craighead County on Nov. 18, 2012.

[Dropkick]

Possum Cops losing some of their power?

[supersaint]

I doubt this will deter many of them.

[DeltaBoy]

I doubt this will deter many of them.

It will when their cases are thrown out and the Judge gives them some pookie time.

[Albert Einswine]

Do they ever do those AGFC roadblock checkpoints like they used to do around Black Rock during gun deer season back in the day?  I wonder if this ruling will have any effect on that action, if it still goes on.

[Rzbakfromwaybak]

Don't see what the Wardens did that was wrong, sounds like they were just doing their job.  They didn't really..."stop & detain"....this group.  It says they were at a duck hunting camp cooking breakfast....not driving down a highway or road. 

They checked & arrested a convicted felon that had a firearm in his possession, & found drugs & paraphernalia.  He was breaking the law & got caught.  They checked for hunting license's, firearms & ammunition (steel shot only for waterfowl), & checked to see if they had any game over their limit.  That is their job.  They were at a hunting camp.  Seems reasonable to me.

If Warden's are not allowed to check you unless they know, or have a strong suspicion  that you are not complying with the law...it won't be good for our sport.  If we tie up the Wardens hands,  too many poachers,  people killing over the limit's, killing out of season, breaking all kinds of regulations, & felon's like this one possessing a firearm & drugs.... will not be caught.  Same will happen with fishing regulations & limits. This was a bad decision by a bad court.  Not a good sign for the future.

[PEtrader]

Don't see what the Wardens did that was wrong, sounds like they were just doing their job.  They didn't really..."stop & detain"....this group.  It says they were at a duck hunting camp cooking breakfast....not driving down a highway or road. 

They checked & arrested a convicted felon that had a firearm in his possession, & found drugs & paraphernalia.  He was breaking the law & got caught.  They checked for hunting license's, firearms & ammunition (steel shot only for waterfowl), & checked to see if they had any game over their limit.  That is their job.  They were at a hunting camp.  Seems reasonable to me.

If Warden's are not allowed to check you unless they know, or have a strong suspicion  that you are not complying with the law...it won't be good for our sport.  If we tie up the Wardens hands,  too many poachers,  people killing over the limit's, killing out of season, breaking all kinds of regulations, & felon's like this one possessing a firearm & drugs.... will not be caught.  Same will happen with fishing regulations & limits. This was a bad decision by a bad court.  Not a good sign for the future.

I think what they were saying was that constitution trumps wildlife.

I don't disagree though.

[AcornHunter]

I wasn't there and probably would not have understood everything that played out if I had been.  Were all the miscreants hunting or were some, or one, just at a hunting camp?  There are some hard questions here.  Even Bryan Hendricks, who usually writes an easily understood article, today reads like he's lost in a fog and can't find his way.

Arkansas hunting camps, AGFC, felons and lawyers . . . careful, this thing could lead into a like quagmire of what the definition of "is" is.

In the long run it will probably be, as usual, the wildlife that suffers.  As the old Far East adage teaches:  When the elephants fight, it's the grass that suffers.

Think about it!

[Rzbakfromwaybak]

I wasn't there and probably would not have understood everything that played out if I had been.  Were all the miscreants hunting or were some, or one, just at a hunting camp?  There are some hard questions here.  Even Bryan Hendricks, who usually writes an easily understood article, today reads like he's lost in a fog and can't find his way.

Arkansas hunting camps, AGFC, felons and lawyers . . . careful, this thing could lead into a like quagmire of what the definition of "is" is.

In the long run it will probably be, as usual, the wildlife that suffers.  As the old Far East adage teaches:  When the elephants fight, it's the grass that suffers.

Think about it!

Yes, agree......it will probably be the wildlife & regulations enforcement that suffer.

The thing that bothers me other than the twisted ruling, is that part of the article is misleading.  They were said to be at a hunting camp cooking breakfast.....so they were not really "stopped & detained" on some road, etc. as the article implies.  Unless maybe they had to stop cooking/eating for a few minutes.  That certainly doesn't sound like a constitutional crisis to me.  Also, the felon told the officers he had a hunting license, but not on him.  They called headquarters & it was verified that he did have a hunting license.  That's when they found out he was a felon. He evidently also had a firearm in his possession...& some drugs & paraphernalia.  When you have a gun in your possession, are in a duck hunting camp, & tell the officers you bought a valid license....it is reasonable for them to believe you are there to hunt. He got arrested for being a felon & having a firearm in his possession & drugs......not for a hunting regulation.  Anytime a law enforcement officer finds a convicted felon in possession of a firearm, he should be detained/arrested. 

[Rzbakfromwaybak]

I think what they were saying was that constitution trumps wildlife.

I don't disagree though.

Yes, I agree that is evidently what they were saying, I just don't see how they could twist that conclusion out of this case.  After reading what the judge that dissented wrote, looks like he & two of the other judges, had it right.  Game Wardens have different circumstances to deal with, than most law enforcement officers.  Let them do their job.  They arrested a convicted felon in possession of a firearm & drugs.  They discovered this while checking a hunting camp for hunting licenses.  6 judges turned him loose.  Not exactly what most would call justice, & keeping our streets safe.

[twistitup]

  6 judges turned him loose.  Not exactly what most would call justice, & keeping our streets safe.

6 judges didn't gave more facts than those posting in this thread? This was a hunting camp not 'the streets'.

[cbhawg03]

6 judges didn't gave more facts than those posting in this thread? This was a hunting camp not 'the streets'.

While those judges had more evidence that any of us have / had / will ever have as it pertains to this case, you really think that wardens shouldn't stop hunters and ask to see a license, check for the amount of game each person has, etc.? If you think that Wardens shouldn't do that, then what should they be doing?

And when people keep going and catching fish after fish above the limit and keeping all of those fish and you soon realize that your fishing hole is now empty, will you then change your mind?

The judge is trying to treat the wardens as police officers, which they are clearly not and their justification for stopping an individual to check a license is different than any other police officer, no reasonable suspicion or probable cause needed, just simply check that the hunters are obeying the laws and go about their day. What do you think is wrong with that idea?

[twistitup]

Random searches violate my rights - game wardens should observe hunting and fishing until they witness a violation, then they can act. If they don't have reasonable probable cause just leave people alone.

They can hide w binoculars and watch folks....they do it all the time anyway.

[Albert Einswine]

The reason I adhere to the game laws and bag limits ls because I play by the rules, not because I'm afraid I'll get caught if I don't. The vast majority of people are the same way. The law doesn't stop poachers, and most poachers don't get caught under the decades old current regime. I'll keep doing it the right way and enjoy my liberty not to be randomly searched by government authorities for no reason other than just being out there, thank you very much. Some of you folks sure do love you some authoritarianism.

[Rzbakfromwaybak]

Random searches violate my rights - game wardens should observe hunting and fishing until they witness a violation, then they can act. If they don't have reasonable probable cause just leave people alone.

They can hide w binoculars and watch folks....they do it all the time anyway.

Do you really think that game wardens can catch more poachers, game regulation violators, (or felons in possession of firearms).....buy using binoculars....or by checking them at camps, on roads, loading ramps, etc....for game violations?  Do you really believe they can "see" many hunter's actually shooting a deer in the woods?  Or see every hunter at every lake shooting ducks & count how many ducks they have shot?  Or watch each fisherman on every lake & count how many crappie, bass or catfish they put in their live well? There are not enough wardens to enforce game laws that way. Most violations are discovered when a person is being randomly checked by a warden. It's also not easy to tell if anyone has a fishing or hunting license, by looking at them thru binoculars.

If wardens cannot search without cause (they didn't see anyone break a law, etc.)  how many more illegal deer will eventually be killed each year?  You can bet that total will double or triple if searches by wardens are not allowed randomly.  What do you think that will eventually do to the deer herd?  Same thing will happen with ducks, fish, etc.  Anytime you make in harder to catch lawbreakers, you will have more illegal game taken.

Usually, the only people that have trouble with wardens checking them.....are the ones that are doing something wrong.  Otherwise, you don't have anything to fear.  They can't arrest you or give you a ticket, if you are obeying the law.  They are usually just doing the job they were hired for, protecting our wildlife

[twistitup]

I enjoy my rights, thank you. Are you ok with being pulled over and searched...it is how 'most' are caught? I don't like random threats, searches, or intimidation- if you have reasonable suspicion - go right ahead.

[pick_DA_EAGLES]

The only time i have been bothered by a warden doing a random check was when were fishing a tournament on lake dardanelle and he made us take our fish out and measure them. He knew that we couldn't keep any fish less than the 15" rule, because that would have disqualified us. Yet, he didnt pull over and check the man fishing off the bank that had been keeping everything he caught most in the 12" range.

[Rzbakfromwaybak]

I enjoy my rights, thank you. Are you ok with being pulled over and searched...it is how 'most' are caught? I don't like random threats, searches, or intimidation- if you have reasonable suspicion - go right ahead.

I agree with you......I also don't like random threats, or intimidation.  That was evidently not what happened in the court case on this thread. Nobody got stopped & pulled over out of the blue. If I have been hunting or fishing (going or coming), or at a camp of either....don't mind being checked at all.  If the warden's aren't allowed to randomly check....they aren't going to catch many people not following regulations.  They just can't be on the scene to see most violations. That is just common sense.  There again, if you aren't doing anything wrong, you don't have anything to worry about.  If these poachers, etc. know they are probably not going to be searched or checked, more of them are going to try it, & get away with it.  Which will encourage them & others to do more of it. That's not going to be good for wildlife & fish populations for everyone else.

[Rzbakfromwaybak]

The only time i have been bothered by a warden doing a random check was when were fishing a tournament on lake dardanelle and he made us take our fish out and measure them. He knew that we couldn't keep any fish less than the 15" rule, because that would have disqualified us. Yet, he didnt pull over and check the man fishing off the bank that had been keeping everything he caught most in the 12" range.

Sounds to me like the warden was just wrong in this instance.  Maybe he didn't think/believe you were part of the tournament, & would keep everything?  Who knows, sounds like he just checked the wrong guys for whatever reason.  Wished you would have told him to check the guy on the bank for the length rule, just to see if he would do it.

[JIMMY BOARFFETT]

I think you guys are reading way to much into this.  I don't think it will have nearly the affect some of you are thinking it will.

And Twist, there is a big difference in reasonable suspicion and probable cause.  One is sufficient to search and one is not.  The problem with most of you who are expressing your opinion on what the police should or should not be doing is that you don't know what you are talking about.

[twistitup]

I think you guys are reading way to much into this.  I don't think it will have nearly the affect some of you are thinking it will.

And Twist, there is a big difference in reasonable suspicion and probable cause.  One is sufficient to search and one is not.  The problem with most of you who are expressing your opinion on what the police should or should not be doing is that you don't know what you are talking about.

I know what I don't want and that is random searches - the courts agree with me. You can act like a genius of the law if you want and I'll just say I support the courts decision. You guys act like you have more information than the judges did when they made this decision, I beg to differ.

[pick_DA_EAGLES]

Sounds to me like the warden was just wrong in this instance.  Maybe he didn't think/believe you were part of the tournament, & would keep everything?  Who knows, sounds like he just checked the wrong guys for whatever reason.  Wished you would have told him to check the guy on the bank for the length rule, just to see if he would do it.

We explained we were in a tournament, he just looked at us like we were stupid. The bank fisherman was within 75 yds of were we got checked. The warden could see him fishing while checking us. It still puzzles me to this day and it happened 16-17 years ago.

[cbhawg03]

Personally don't think that you can bring into the argument what police officers can or can't do in regards to game wardens checking licenses, etc. Totally different set of circumstances.

[PonderinHog]

When game animals develop the ability to report wrongdoings by humans to the authorities, I'll be more inclined to object to unreasonable searches and seizures by the game wardens.

[kodiakisland]

Don't see what the Wardens did that was wrong, sounds like they were just doing their job.  They didn't really..."stop & detain"....this group.  It says they were at a duck hunting camp cooking breakfast....not driving down a highway or road. 

They checked & arrested a convicted felon that had a firearm in his possession, & found drugs & paraphernalia.  He was breaking the law & got caught.  They checked for hunting license's, firearms & ammunition (steel shot only for waterfowl), & checked to see if they had any game over their limit.  That is their job.  They were at a hunting camp.  Seems reasonable to me.

If Warden's are not allowed to check you unless they know, or have a strong suspicion  that you are not complying with the law...it won't be good for our sport.  If we tie up the Wardens hands,  too many poachers,  people killing over the limit's, killing out of season, breaking all kinds of regulations, & felon's like this one possessing a firearm & drugs.... will not be caught.  Same will happen with fishing regulations & limits. This was a bad decision by a bad court.  Not a good sign for the future.

You have to remember they are a form of law enforcement.  Would we want the state police to have the power to pull anyone over just to look in their trunk?  Or see if the have a license, insurance, etc.?  There should be probable cause for LE to search you, your home, car, camp, etc.  Someone taking part in a legal activity should not be suspected of doing something wrong just because they are doing that activity.

It would be the same if LE had the right to inspect every gun owner in the state just to see if they could find anything illegal.  I'm all for getting the bad guys, but this is not Nazi Germany and we should not have the gestapo demanding papers just because we are hunters.

[kodiakisland]

Personally don't think that you can bring into the argument what police officers can or can't do in regards to game wardens checking licenses, etc. Totally different set of circumstances.

No.  They are both LE.  In some states they are considered the same as the state police.

[twistitup]

No.  They are both LE.  In some states they are considered the same as the state police.

I'm all for getting the bad guys, but this is not Nazi Germany and we should not have the gestapo demanding papers just because we are hunters.

[theFlyingHog]

So now I can shoot lead shot when I hunt ducks. Great. I'll just reload hulls marked "steel" so I don't have to worry about missing one and leaving evidence.


Now that I have read the article, sounds like they can stop you and conduct an inspection as long as they do it to everybody

[EastexHawg]

Do you really think that game wardens can catch more poachers, game regulation violators, (or felons in possession of firearms).....buy using binoculars....or by checking them at camps, on roads, loading ramps, etc....for game violations?  Do you really believe they can "see" many hunter's actually shooting a deer in the woods?  Or see every hunter at every lake shooting ducks & count how many ducks they have shot?  Or watch each fisherman on every lake & count how many crappie, bass or catfish they put in their live well? There are not enough wardens to enforce game laws that way. Most violations are discovered when a person is being randomly checked...

Just think how many drug dealers and child pornagraphers could be discovered if the police were allowed to search homes, cars, cell phones, computers, and people any time they wanted, without warrants or probable cause...but "just because".  How many crimes could be prevented if government eavesdropped on all phone calls and installed listening devices everywhere.  How many criminals might be arrested if the police randomly went to malls and football stadiums, sealed all the exits, and searched everyone inside...including examining all hand held devices and administering Miss tests and breathalyzers.

Sounds like a perfect world...almost heaven on Earth...doesn't it?

[EastexHawg]

Does some sort of filter change u-r-i...you know, the word for what is excreted from your bladder...to "Miss"?  I've tried typing it twice and it has been changed both times.

[Hogfaniam]

Does some sort of filter change u-r-i...you know, the word for what is excreted from your bladder...to "Miss"?  I've tried typing it twice and it has been changed both times.

Miss
Piss


U-r-i-n-e turned to miss (ole miss.  Appropriate, I think)
Piss stayed piss

[kodiakisland]

So now I can shoot lead shot when I hunt ducks. Great. I'll just reload hulls marked "steel" so I don't have to worry about missing one and leaving evidence.


Now that I have read the article, sounds like they can stop you and conduct an inspection as long as they do it to everybody

Yep.  You can also drive without a license.  Have an open container.  Trunk full of meth.  Maybe even a body.  Cops still have to have a reason to pull you over besides just looking at what you have.

[Rzbakfromwaybak]

 
I don't believe anybody is wanting the Wardens to act like Nazi's, & search you house, garage, freezer, computer, etc.  without a tip, strong/reasonable suspicion, etc .  To even compare Wardens to Nazi's is ridiculous.  Nazi's threw people in jail for any reason they wanted, beat, tortured & killed as they desired.  Don't believe too many Wardens are doing anything like that. Checking for hunting & fishing license/checking your firearm, vehicle or boat, camp, etc.....is not anywhere close to that kind of intrusion.  That is exactly what led to the court case that started this thread, & the example we were discussing.  The fact that keeps getting ignored.....is that these Wardens caught a convicted felon in possession of a firearm & drugs.  That is the description of the type of individual.....that is responsible for about 80% of the crime in this country.  He did not get to be a convicted felon by being a good guy.  He proved it again by breaking the law, & getting caught with drugs & a firearm.

As mentioned by another poster......The Wildlife itself cannot pick up the phone & call in people poaching, shooting over the limit, etc., they need help.  Wardens are different than the police, & have different kinds of circumstances to work with. They are all we have to enforce the wildlife laws, let them do their job.  Again, if you are not breaking the law, you won't be in trouble.  People that have trouble with that....tend to remind me of people that often drink & drive...& have multiple DUI's.  They don't like cops, & don't want to be stopped or searched for any reason, anywhere.  Wonder why?

[EastexHawg]

They are all we have to enforce the wildlife laws, let them do their job.  Again, if you are not breaking the law, you won't be in trouble.  People that have trouble with that....tend to remind me of people that often drink & drive...& have multiple DUI's.  They don't like cops, & don't want to be stopped or searched for any reason, anywhere.  Wonder why?

Do some of them remind you of people who realize we have a Constitution in this country, and that law enforcement...like everyone else...is supposed to abide by it?

The Constitution, to paraphrase, says the people are to be secure in their persons and effects and that searches and seizures are to take place based only on probable cause and warrants describing the person, place, and thing to be searched/seized.  It doesn't enable law enforcement to go on fishing expeditions, casting a big net and checking it to see what they have caught.

I applaud the judges who ruled, correctly, that law enforcement oversteps its constitutional bounds when it searches or seizes citizens without any demonstrable reason to believe they have committed crimes. 

And yes, the courts have already affirmed that when a law enforcement officer detains you in his official capacity that detainment amounts to a seizure.

By the way, the police are the only people we have to enforce our non-game laws.  I don't want them going on fixing expeditions, either, no matter how many criminals they might uncover in the process.

[Rzbakfromwaybak]

Do some of them remind you of people who realize we have a Constitution in this country, and that law enforcement...like everyone else...is supposed to abide by it?

The Constitution, to paraphrase, says the people are to be secure in their persons and effects and that searches and seizures are to take place based only on probable cause and warrants describing the person, place, and thing to be searched/seized.  It doesn't enable law enforcement to go on fishing expeditions, casting a big net and checking it to see what they have caught.

I applaud the judges who ruled, correctly, that law enforcement oversteps its constitutional bounds when it searches or seizes citizens without any demonstrable reason to believe they have committed crimes. 

And yes, the courts have already affirmed that when a law enforcement officer detains you in his official capacity that detainment amounts to a seizure.

By the way, the police are the only people we have to enforce our non-game laws.  I don't want them going on fixing expeditions, either, no matter how many criminals they might uncover in the process.

This case is far from a constitutional crisis.  Good grief, it was game wardens checking a hunting camp for hunting licenses, etc.  That should be exactly what they are suppose to do.  That is not.... "casting a big net to see what you have caught".  They have done this forever, & I don't seem to remember our constitution going away because of it. Wardens did not break down their house door to search, or even pull them over on the highway.  They found out the guy was a felon when they called headquarters to see if he actually had purchased a license....since he didn't have it on him.  Can they not even do that?? If they can't even check for hunting licenses while you are in a hunting camp, might as well do away with trying to enforce our game laws.  Just have the Wardens pick up trash along the highways, boat docks, hunting & fishing camps, & wave at the poachers/felons, etc. as they go by.

As far as the detaining/seizure you mention......

After checking with headquarters about his hunting license & discovering he was a felon in possession of a firearm & drugs, what do you think they should have done?  Turn him loose, or detain him?  If they had done nothing & let him go.....what do you think would be the story, if in a short time later, he committed another felony, shot or killed somebody, or while he was driving & high on drugs, ran over a kid?  You can guess what the story would be after it came out the wardens had let go a convicted felon in possession of a firearm & drugs....& did not arrest or detain him. 

[twistitup]

It seems that most people don't value their rights these days...

[supersaint]

It seems that most people don't value their rights these days...

I'm glad that you and those six judges value the Fourth Amendment.

[kodiakisland]

It seems that most people don't value their rights these days...

No kidding.  Not only do they not value individual rights, but they seem to want to be treated as a criminal.  Personally, if I am not involved in an illegal activity, I see no reason to be treated as such.  To each their own I guess, but I'll take personal freedom over tyranny.

If you drive a car without a license or insurance, can your car call the police and tell them?  Should we stop every person driving a car to check them?  If you cook meth in your house, can your house call the police to tell them?  Should we inspect every house?  If you are a law abiding hunter, should you be treated as though you have broken the law?

I do wonder if those who don't support this decision even read the article.  These people were not in the act of hunting when the warden demanded their license, weapons, and ammo.  He had no reason to ask for any of those.  Just because they actually found a criminal does not justify the means.  How many of the same tactics were used before they did?  Is it OK to violate hundreds of peoples rights to find one criminal?  If so, shouldn't we use the same tactics for all illegal activity?

[cbhawg03]

It seems that most people don't value their rights these days...

While I imagine you would throw me into that group because of my stance on the issue, I do value our rights and usually side with the defendant / defense, just on this issue I think the judges got it wrong.

Don't think that you should consider a game warden as a law enforcement official, while I recognize they have many of the same jobs, just don't think they belong in the same group as stopping individuals to check license or whatever else.

[twistitup]

^
There is no other way to classify game wardens other than law enforcement officials- their duty is to enforce game laws just like police enforce traffic laws.

What exactly would you call them if they are not law enforcement?

[Rzbakfromwaybak]

I value my freedoms, the constitution & do not like or support any kind of tyranny.  That said, as with many threads here on Hogvillle, another subject has ended up in the weeds, & some of the most important facts are lost, or distorted. All this talk about tyranny, Nazi's, & people suggesting that just being asked for their hunting license by a warden at a hunting camp...is like choosing between tyranny & freedom.  That is really a stretch.  Unless you have something to hide, you reach into your billfold, & show your license to the warden. Problem solved. That hardly sounds like tyranny to a sensible person.  That's how this case got started.  This guy had a hunting license.  He did not want to carry it with him when he was hunting....maybe so he could claim he wasn't duck hunting...since he was a convicted felon that is not supposed to be in possession of a firearm.  He did get caught anyway, with a firearm in his possession (at a duck camp), & with drugs, that is why he was arrested.  That is another felony charge.  Seems we keep forgetting these important facts....lost somewhere in the weeds...

Again, what should the wardens have done, after they checked with headquarters to see if he had purchased a hunting license, & discovered he was a convicted felon in possession of a firearm & drugs? Detain & arrest him, or turn him loose??

[kodiakisland]

Some may appreciate being treated as a law breaker.  I don't.  Some may need the threat of being caught and punishment to do the right thing.  I don't.  Game wardens are LE.  No way around it.  They should abide by the same rules as any other LE official.  I should not be considered a law breaker just because I'm a hunter.  You may be OK with that.  I'm not.

You seem to be hung up on the fact a felon was apprehended.  By a game warden (LE).  The ends justify the means.  Why only apply that to hunters?  Don't you think other law breakers should be caught as well?

I've hunted for 40 years and never been checked by a game warden.  Doubt I ever will.  I'm pretty sure I could get away with whatever I wanted.  I don't though, and it has nothing to do with fear of being caught.

Bottom line is the majority opinion of people far smarter in the law than me believe game wardens should not have unlimited powers.

[Rzbakfromwaybak]

You may appreciate being treated as a law breaker.  I don't.  You may need the threat of being caught and punishment to do the right thing.  I don't.  Game wardens are LE.  No way around it.  They should abide by the same rules as any other LE official.  I should not be considered a law breaker just because I'm a hunter.  You may be OK with that.  I'm not.

You seem to be hung up on the fact a felon was apprehended.  By a game warden.  The ends justify the means.  Why only apply that to hunters?  Don't you think other law breakers should be caught as well?

I've hunted for 40 years and never been checked by a game warden.  Doubt I ever will.  I'm pretty sure I could get away with whatever I wanted.  I don't though, and it has nothing to do with fear of being caught.

Looks like the only one that was treated as a lawbreaker.....was the lawbreaker, a convicted felon.  Sounds reasonable. Most laws have some kind of..."threat of punishment for being caught" to violators.  Even speed limit signs.  Take those down or don't enforce them at all & see what happens. It's bad enough anyway. If nobody is going to be issued a ticket for traffic laws,  how many are going to abide by them?  If there is no threat of consequences for not obeying, there won't be much law abiding.

You seem to be hung on up the fact that a felon got arrested by a game warden while he was checking for their hunting license....at a hunting camp.  Seems reasonable to most people. He wasn't arrested for not having a license. He wasn't at home, in his garage or den, at work, at the grocery store in the town where he lives, etc.  He was in a hunting camp.  Whatever he was doing at that camp with a firearm in his possession & with drugs.... was illegal.  Nobody obeying the law got arrested, or fined.  Sounds like the way it's suppose to work.  Crooks go to jail, law abiding citizens go unhurt. Nobody is saying that you are a law breaker just because you are a hunter & are asked for your license. That is absurd.  Everyone is a potential law breaker. Producing your hunting license in an area that hunting is taking place...should not be a problem for someone that wants to cooperate with keeping our game laws & regulations.  It's only going to be a problem, when you are doing something wrong.....like this felon.

[twistitup]

I value my freedoms, the constitution & do not like or support any kind of tyranny.  That said, as with many threads here on Hogvillle, another subject has ended up in the weeds, & some of the most important facts are lost, or distorted. All this talk about tyranny, Nazi's, & people suggesting that just being asked for their hunting license by a warden at a hunting camp...is like choosing between tyranny & freedom.  That is really a stretch.  Unless you have something to hide, you reach into your billfold, & show your license to the warden. Problem solved. That hardly sounds like tyranny to a sensible person.  That's how this case got started.  This guy had a hunting license.  He did not want to carry it with him when he was hunting....maybe so he could claim he wasn't duck hunting...since he was a convicted felon that is not supposed to be in possession of a firearm.  He did get caught anyway, with a firearm in his possession (at a duck camp), & with drugs, that is why he was arrested.  That is another felony charge.  Seems we keep forgetting these important facts....lost somewhere in the weeds...

Again, what should the wardens have done, after they checked with headquarters to see if he had purchased a hunting license, & discovered he was a convicted felon in possession of a firearm & drugs? Detain & arrest him, or turn him loose??

You are forgetting one very important fact too - the courts don't agree with you.

[jkstock04]

Some may appreciate being treated as a law breaker.  I don't.  Some may need the threat of being caught and punishment to do the right thing.  I don't.  Game wardens are LE.  No way around it.  They should abide by the same rules as any other LE official.  I should not be considered a law breaker just because I'm a hunter.  You may be OK with that.  I'm not.

You seem to be hung up on the fact a felon was apprehended.  By a game warden (LE).  The ends justify the means.  Why only apply that to hunters?  Don't you think other law breakers should be caught as well?

I've hunted for 40 years and never been checked by a game warden.  Doubt I ever will.  I'm pretty sure I could get away with whatever I wanted.  I don't though, and it has nothing to do with fear of being caught.

Bottom line is the majority opinion of people far smarter in the law than me believe game wardens should not have unlimited powers.

I have never really looked at things this way, but I see your point. Why stop with hunters? Seems like a slippery slope. Random, uncalled for game checks.....I can for sure see how one may argue this to be unconstitutional. When I have been randomly checked before I never felt this way (because I have never done anything wrong, & it was a turn key deal)....but I can for sure see this point of view. Being that they should at least have probable cause said person is in the wrong before they "harrass" them.

The same argument could be made about random road blocks...checking for drunk drivers and such. I suppose you would be against that as well? 99% of everyone being checked or "harassed" are doing nothing wrong. But why stop there? They could raid every house/cell phone in America and catch people breaking the law as well. Why don't they so that? Most times game wardens operate with zero probable cause....whereas cops usually are at least supposed to have probable cause.

It's an interesting subject to me, I can understand the argument. I have been at deer camps where it was a regular occurance for game wardens to come inside the cabin and literally go through coolers/freezers. Really, that's not right in my mind. But, it's the same thing as a game warden checking the live well to see how many keepers you have and if you are abiding by the length limit. For sure a slippery slope as far as rights are concerned.

[TechHawg]

So if someone happened to be at this camp just visiting and didn't hunt, would they have been given a ticket for having no license? Wardens have been overstepping their bounds for years. Its about time they get reigned in a bit.

[ifghog]

So if someone happened to be at this camp just visiting and didn't hunt, would they have been given a ticket for having no license? Wardens have been overstepping their bounds for years. Its about time they get reigned in a bit.

I agree

[DeltaBoy]

This should also fix the regular law using game wardens to get around getting warrants.

[twistitup]

This should also fix the regular law using game wardens to get around getting warrants.

We hope

[supersaint]

Possum cops got put on front street.