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  • #1 by oldhawg on 10 Aug 2017
  • From 1960 to 2010 (51 years), Clemson averaged 6.8 wins a season.

    From 2011 to 2016 Clemson averaged 11.6 wins a season with one national championship.

    I just refuse to believe that Arkansas cannot accomplish something similar.

    Clemson University has about 19,000 undergraduate students, and the town of Clemson has a permanent population of about 16,000.

     
  • #2 by chenalhog on 10 Aug 2017
  • From 1960 to 2016 (51 years), Clemson averaged 6.8 wins a season.

    From 2011 to 2016 Clemson averaged 11.6 wins a season with one national championship.

    I just refuse to believe that Arkansas cannot accomplish something similar.

    Clemson University has about 19,000 undergraduate students, and the town of Clemson has a permanent population of about 16,000.

     
    and they recruiting BSA within 3-4 hours is in credable
  • #3 by Bubba's Bruisers on 10 Aug 2017
  • Sounds like we need yet another lesson on recruiting concepts.
  • #4 by Hogwild on 10 Aug 2017
  • Sounds like we need yet another lesson on recruiting concepts.

    That's an excuse not a reason.  Yes we have a minor handicap, so do other schools.

    Over the past 10 years what have:
    Oregon, Utah, Nebraska, Boise State, BYU, MIzzou, West Virginia, Wisconsin done that we haven't other than win.
  • #5 by lakecityhog on 10 Aug 2017
  • Didn't they have the same recruiting base from 1960 to 2016? Did they move the campus to gain a recruiting edge?

    Flip the flop with Texas(spit) why haven't they been recruiting at a top 5 rate like they have for 50 years???
  • #6 by Bubba's Bruisers on 10 Aug 2017
  • That's an excuse not a reason.  Yes we have a minor handicap, so do other schools.

    Over the past 10 years what have:
    Oregon, Utah, Nebraska, Boise State, BYU, MIzzou, West Virginia, Wisconsin done that we haven't other than win.

    They haven't sniffed a NC, like Clemson does...the OP's example school.  Let's settle the goal posts to just one position.  Are we comparing ourselves to a NC program like Clemson or to the likes of Wisky and NE? 
  • #7 by Pig in the Pokey on 10 Aug 2017
  • and they recruiting BSA within 3-4 hours is in credable
    that, and they pay players by funneling money thru churches and even provide hookers to recruits. That helps, too.
  • #8 by Al Boarland on 10 Aug 2017
  • Clemson recruits better and has an easier path to the playoffs. They also had a game changing QB.
  • #9 by MuskogeeHogFan on 10 Aug 2017
  • From 1960 to 2016 (51 years), Clemson averaged 6.8 wins a season.

    From 2011 to 2016 Clemson averaged 11.6 wins a season with one national championship.

    I just refuse to believe that Arkansas cannot accomplish something similar.

    Clemson University has about 19,000 undergraduate students, and the town of Clemson has a permanent population of about 16,000.

     

    While we can't necessarily compare anything to other campuses, student bodies or the size of the town in which the school is located, I am of the belief that if you are a school that has a recruiting disadvantage compared to other big named schools in your conference (like Alabama) you have to leverage other things to your advantage.

    Yes, it is essential that we have a very productive offense that controls the clock and is really good in the RZ and we have to have a pretty decent defense (#35 nationally or better) but we also have to have other means of scoring points aside from the offense...let's call those "opportunity points".

    Those would include Recovered Fumbles for TD's, INT's for TD's, PR's for TD's and KO Returns for TD's. This doesn't include XP's following TD's (which should be automatic) or Field Goals. But when you look at just TD's from the offense and the other areas I listed, you need to be in excess of 30 points per game in order to compete for the the Western Division title in the SEC and have a shot at the NC Play Offs.

    If you don't gain at least 3-6 additional points (on average p/game) from those opportunities each season (in excess of Offensive TD's), you aren't likely to have any shot at the SEC West or the SECCG.

    Yes, it requires talent and yes, it requires coaching and emphasis on what is perceived to be the smaller things like coordinated and practiced effort on returns of fumble recoveries, INT's, Kick and Punt Returns and the like. All of these things contribute to the overall team success and when you are disciplined in your effort, practice after practice and game after game, it yields points that are sometimes the difference between being average and achieving great success. JMO
  • #10 by FANONTHEHILL on 11 Aug 2017
  • That's an excuse not a reason.  Yes we have a minor handicap, so do other schools.

    Over the past 10 years what have:
    Oregon, Utah, Nebraska, Boise State, BYU, MIzzou, West Virginia, Wisconsin done that we haven't other than win.

    They haven't played an SEC West schedule for one.
  • #11 by hawgon on 11 Aug 2017
  • We've squandered at least two wins a year every year since Bielema has been here.  Add eight wins over the last four years to this program and the national perception is COMPLETELY different.  We would be poised to break into the elite instead of wondering if we were going to be able to get eight.
  • #12 by davglo35 on 11 Aug 2017
  • What makes a talented team's season is turnovers. Phil Steele did an analysis of teams that have good seasons and teams that don't. When teams are fairly close talent wise it's always the turnover ratio that makes or breaks a season. If you are + in turnovers you have a winning season almost every time.
    Remember last season when Alabama would score defensive touchdowns almost every game? No one had a chance to beat them when these turnovers were occurring. Not even Ole Miss.
  • #13 by mizzouman on 11 Aug 2017
  • From 1960 to 2016 (51 years), Clemson averaged 6.8 wins a season.

    From 2011 to 2016 Clemson averaged 11.6 wins a season with one national championship.

    I just refuse to believe that Arkansas cannot accomplish something similar.

    Clemson University has about 19,000 undergraduate students, and the town of Clemson has a permanent population of about 16,000.

     
    Your last sentence has no bearing on the success of a college football program.
  • #14 by Atlhogfan1 on 11 Aug 2017
  • Clemson is in the SC Upsate with a population of 1.5 million.  30 miles from Greenville.  2 hour drive NE from Atlanta on I85.  2 hour drive SW from Charlotte on I85.

    The demographics of this region is very beneficial for recruiting and the quality of high school football is vastly better in this region than Arkansas or Missouri. 

    Not a comparable situation.  Clemson = Auburn with less competition. 

  • #15 by oldhawg on 11 Aug 2017
  • Clemson is in the SC Upsate with a population of 1.5 million.  30 miles from Greenville.  2 hour drive NE from Atlanta on I85.  2 hour drive SW from Charlotte on I85.

    The demographics of this region is very beneficial for recruiting and the quality of high school football is vastly better in this region than Arkansas or Missouri. 

    Not a comparable situation.  Clemson = Auburn with less competition. 



    And yet from 1960 to 2010 they were unable to fully take advantage of this advantage.  Something changed.
  • #16 by oldhawg on 11 Aug 2017
  • Your last sentence has no bearing on the success of a college football program.

    The intent was simply to compare/contrast Clemson and the University of Arkansas
  • #17 by oldhawg on 11 Aug 2017
  • While we can't necessarily compare anything to other campuses, student bodies or the size of the town in which the school is located, I am of the belief that if you are a school that has a recruiting disadvantage compared to other big named schools in your conference (like Alabama) you have to leverage other things to your advantage.

    Yes, it is essential that we have a very productive offense that controls the clock and is really good in the RZ and we have to have a pretty decent defense (#35 nationally or better) but we also have to have other means of scoring points aside from the offense...let's call those "opportunity points".

    Those would include Recovered Fumbles for TD's, INT's for TD's, PR's for TD's and KO Returns for TD's. This doesn't include XP's following TD's (which should be automatic) or Field Goals. But when you look at just TD's from the offense and the other areas I listed, you need to be in excess of 30 points per game in order to compete for the the Western Division title in the SEC and have a shot at the NC Play Offs.

    If you don't gain at least 3-6 additional points (on average p/game) from those opportunities each season (in excess of Offensive TD's), you aren't likely to have any shot at the SEC West or the SECCG.

    Yes, it requires talent and yes, it requires coaching and emphasis on what is perceived to be the smaller things like coordinated and practiced effort on returns of fumble recoveries, INT's, Kick and Punt Returns and the like. All of these things contribute to the overall team success and when you are disciplined in your effort, practice after practice and game after game, it yields points that are sometimes the difference between being average and achieving great success. JMO

    Now you are just being too logical and analytical :)
  • #18 by oldhawg on 11 Aug 2017
  • that, and they pay players by funneling money thru churches and even provide hookers to recruits. That helps, too.

    Not refuting your comment, but I have read nothing implicating Clemson in prostitution deals or large pay-offs.  Can you tell me where you are getting this information?

    If not, then you are implying that perhaps the 2010 (10 wins) and 2011 (11 wins) seasons at Arkansas were also the result of prostitution and bribery.  I certainly do not believe that. 
  • #19 by Atlhogfan1 on 11 Aug 2017
  • And yet from 1960 to 2010 they were unable to fully take advantage of this advantage.  Something changed.

    Take out pre-integration era football IMO.  Pre-1970 as UA-Texas was the last big game between two all white teams.

    One change is the population of the Upstate, Atlanta and Charlotte.  The Upstate has grown every decade since 1970 and is a larger and more demographically beneficial version of NWA in terms of population.

    Atlanta metro was 1.7 million in 1970.  Now nearly 6 million.

    Charlotte and Atlanta were two of the top 10 fastest growing metros from 2000 - 2009.  The population growth in the Southeast has helped give rise to the Florida programs as well.

    Go back to Pell's first season in 1977 and you will see the post-integration success of Clemson football.  7 top 10 finishes including two NC's.  34 bowls including the 2 NCGs with an 18-16 record.  0 bowls from 1960-76. 




  • #20 by MuskogeeHogFan on 11 Aug 2017
  • Now you are just being too logical and analytical :)

    Ha! Well you were talking about predicting by "averages", so...

    I've looked at several schools, SEC and then all of those that have been involved in the play off or ranked in the top 4 for the last 4 seasons and it was really interesting how far more often than not, there was a difference in the opportunity points of those who were involved as opposed to those who weren't. There are always exceptions and Clemson was one of those who had an abnormally low opportunity point average, but the only time that those teams made the play offs was when they had an extremely high powered offense that "trumped" the need for the opportunity points, but that doesn't seem to happen often.

    In almost every case the teams who made the playoffs had to have a combined average p/gm of over 30 points between the opportunity points and the offensive TD's alone.

    Here's Alabama's opportunity point average (p/gm). Again, these are TD's derived from Fumble Returns, INT Returns, Punt Returns and KO Returns and does not include offensive TD's, XP's or FG's.

    2016-6.0, 2015-4.6, 2014-0.9, 2013-3.5

    Now here are our opportunity point averages p/gm for the last 4 years.

    2016-1.8, 2015-0.0, 2014-1.8, 2013-0.5

    We have to become a team that takes greater advantage of scoring on turnover opportunities and Punt and KO Returns. Those are just bonus points that can not only make a difference in close games, but can also help to destroy the will of an opponent.
  • #21 by Atlhogfan1 on 11 Aug 2017
  • Ha! Well you were talking about predicting by "averages", so...

    I've looked at several schools, SEC and then all of those that have been involved in the play off or ranked in the top 4 for the last 4 seasons and it was really interesting how far more often than not, there was a difference in the opportunity points of those who were involved as opposed to those who weren't. There are always exceptions and Clemson was one of those who had an abnormally low opportunity point average, but the only time that those teams made the play offs was when they had an extremely high powered offense that "trumped" the need for the opportunity points, but that doesn't seem to happen often.

    In almost every case the teams who made the playoffs had to have a combined average p/gm of over 30 points between the opportunity points and the offensive TD's alone.

    Here's Alabama's opportunity point average (p/gm). Again, these are TD's derived from Fumble Returns, INT Returns, Punt Returns and KO Returns and does not include offensive TD's, XP's or FG's.

    2016-6.0, 2015-4.6, 2014-0.9, 2013-3.5

    Now here are our opportunity point averages p/gm for the last 4 years.

    2016-1.8, 2015-0.0, 2014-1.8, 2013-0.5

    We have to become a team that takes greater advantage of scoring on turnover opportunities and Punt and KO Returns. Those are just bonus points that can not only make a difference in close games, but can also help to destroy the will of an opponent.

    It's that inability to recruit and build defense compared to some of these programs in the SE US in the ACC and SEC which separates us and IMO partially causes the ceiling we have seen.  Depth shows up on STs.  Hopefully we are building successfully where we will see it soon. 
  • #22 by MuskogeeHogFan on 11 Aug 2017
  • It's that inability to recruit and build defense compared to some of these programs in the SE US in the ACC and SEC which separates us and IMO partially causes the ceiling we have seen.  Depth shows up on STs.  Hopefully we are building successfully where we will see it soon. 

    There isn't any doubt that better athletes helps on ST's but a lot of the excellence on ST's is built on disciplined play and coverages. People getting out of lanes in coverages, not being aligned properly in setting up a return, not being able to resist taking a shot at a guy when he is close to having his back to you and the same thing in blocking on fumble and INT returns. It's the little things that count. And whether you are a superior athlete or just a good athlete you have to be self disciplined enough to make sure that you keep yourself in your lane, execute your assignment and don't ruin what can perhaps turn out to be a game changing play. None of that requires a 5 star or a 4 star athlete, just a lot of practice and discipline.
  • #23 by Hog Fan...DOH! on 11 Aug 2017
  • 1) Build program stability
    2) #1 requires winning enough on the field, and limited craziness off the field
    3) Have NFL guys on every level of D
    4) Have a freak on offense that no defense in America can account for (either at QB, or a D-mac/Julio Jones type).
    5) Get lucky a couple times   

    Boom.  National title.
  • #24 by mizzouman on 11 Aug 2017
  • The intent was simply to compare/contrast Clemson and the University of Arkansas
    Understood.
  • #25 by HamSammich on 11 Aug 2017
  • The OP has a really valid point.

    The lazy "excuse" I've read here is recruiting.

    27  2010
    10
    20
    15
    16
    9
    11
    16 2017

    in 2018 currently sitting at 14

    They average less than one 5 star player a year during these years.

    Its good recruiting but we all know that isn't exactly blueblood powerhouse recruiting.

    I also see the ole "We play in the SEC W" stuff being slung around. I refuse to feel sorry for ourselves or reduce expectations because of the conference.

    Some people can just evaluate the heck out of players and recruit them. Swinney, Petersen, and Snyder come to mind. And the OP is right imo. If Clemsen can do this... so can we.

  • #26 by Atlhogfan1 on 11 Aug 2017
  • The OP has a really valid point.

    The lazy "excuse" I've read here is recruiting.

    27  2010
    10
    20
    15
    16
    9
    11
    16 2017

    in 2018 currently sitting at 14

    They average less than one 5 star player a year during these years.

    Its good recruiting but we all know that isn't exactly blueblood powerhouse recruiting.

    I also see the ole "We play in the SEC W" stuff being slung around. I refuse to feel sorry for ourselves or reduce expectations because of the conference.

    Some people can just evaluate the heck out of players and recruit them. Swinney, Petersen, and Snyder come to mind. And the OP is right imo. If Clemsen can do this... so can we.

    2017 recruiting rankings for the ACC:

    6 FSU
    13 Miami
    16 Clemson
    25 VT
    30 NC
    33 Louisville
    37 Pitt
    47 GT
    48 Duke
    52 NC St
    54 Syracuse
    57 UVa
    66 BC
    67 Wake

    Avg 39

    SEC
    1
    3
    7
    9
    10
    12
    17
    21
    24
    27 Hogs
    29
    31
    42
    65

    Avg 21
    Take out Vandy and it is 18


    Hogs' SECW opponents avg class = 13

    1 Bama
    7 LSU
    9 AU
    12 A&M
    24 Miss St
    29 OM

    Clemson's ACC divisional opponents avg class ranking for 2017 = 46

    FSU 6
    Louisville 33
    NC St 52
    Syr 54
    BC 66
    Wake 67


    ND does play ACC teams right now with their agreement and had the 11th ranked class.  Would be 2nd in the ACC but 6th in the SEC.


    Can't dismiss recruiting if you intend on having a reasonable perspective of our situation.  This is true no matter the coach. 
  • #27 by HamSammich on 11 Aug 2017
  • Yet they whooped the SEC team when it mattered.

    you opened the scope up where we are not comparing apples to apples anymore. Apples to apples is that if we get the three stars that go to the NFL like Clemson does then we can beat Bama too (although I think we beat them this year)
  • #28 by Inhogswetrust on 11 Aug 2017
  • From 1960 to 2010 (51 years), Clemson averaged 6.8 wins a season.

    From 2011 to 2016 Clemson averaged 11.6 wins a season with one national championship.

    I just refuse to believe that Arkansas cannot accomplish something similar.

    Clemson University has about 19,000 undergraduate students, and the town of Clemson has a permanent population of about 16,000.

     

    I've been to Clemson. Nice place and campus. It is close to a large talent rich recruiting area. As far as population is concerned it is just a few miles and very close to Greenville and Spartanburg SC. It is the #40 largest population combined metro area in the US with over 1.4 million people. It's also an easy drive to Atlanta, GA and Charlotte, NC.
  • #29 by GoHogs1091 on 11 Aug 2017
  • #30 by HamSammich on 11 Aug 2017
  • I've been to Clemson. Nice place and campus. It is close to a large talent rich recruiting area. As far as population is concerned it is just a few miles and very close to Greenville and Spartanburg SC. It is the #40 largest population combined metro area in the US with over 1.4 million people. It's also an easy drive to Atlanta, GA and Charlotte, NC.

    More excuses.... regardless of their location their classes ranking are not all that. Excuses excuses excuses. I pity hog fan
  • #31 by hawgon on 11 Aug 2017
  • The excuses are just stupid because we have been good enough the last three years to be a program ready to break into the elite.  We should have won at least nine each of the last three years.  We just are incredibly poorly coached during games and don't take advantage of our opportunities.
  • #32 by HamSammich on 11 Aug 2017
  • The excuses are just stupid because we have been good enough the last three years to be a program ready to break into the elite.  We should have won at least nine each of the last three years.  We just are incredibly poorly coached during games and don't take advantage of our opportunities.


    No buddy...:: there are two groups here and they are in every thread and they are to be pitied:

    1) whoa is us we can't recruit to lil ollle arkansas

    2) whoa is us we are In the SEC west



    They make me vomit a little here every day. No pride. No expectations. No hope. No balls. Our program can be as great as the fans (payers) expect it to be. I hate quitters more than I hate scam artists.





    Proof?????!??? The op has a legitimate post and question and hog "fans" reply with 30 excuses why it's impossible..... I seriously pity you all.
  • #33 by MuskogeeHogFan on 11 Aug 2017

  • No buddy...:: there are two groups here and they are in every thread and they are to be pitied:

    1) whoa is us we can't recruit to lil ollle arkansas

    2) whoa is us we are In the SEC west



    They make me vomit a little here every day. No pride. No expectations. No hope. No balls. Our program can be as great as the fans (payers) expect it to be. I hate quitters more than I hate scam artists.





    Proof?????!??? The op has a legitimate post and question and hog "fans" reply with 30 excuses why it's impossible..... I seriously pity you all.

    Lighten up, Francis. You are straining your eyes looking down that incredibly long nose of yours, at everyone else. Most everyone understands our failures and the reasons for those failures. They will either get corrected and Bielema will stay, or they won't and you'll get your wish to have a different HC. I would caution you though, be careful what you ask for. You may not get exactly what you want.
  • #34 by HamSammich on 11 Aug 2017
  • Francis is a good name. That's not an insult. The insult is you hog "fans" expecting mediocrity..... I'll retire from this thread as there is a core differentiation in constitution. Gl guys.
  • #35 by colbs on 11 Aug 2017

  • No buddy...:: there are two groups here and they are in every thread and they are to be pitied:

    1) whoa is us we can't recruit to lil ollle arkansas

    2) whoa is us we are In the SEC west



    They make me vomit a little here every day. No pride. No expectations. No hope. No balls. Our program can be as great as the fans (payers) expect it to be. I hate quitters more than I hate scam artists.





    Proof?????!??? The op has a legitimate post and question and hog "fans" reply with 30 excuses why it's impossible..... I seriously pity you all.
    You can tell yourself whatever you want but Arkansas isn't going to start pulling top classes out of nowhere, no matter the coach minus Saban.  There is a correlation with distance and where kids sign.  Sure some go far away but the majority of the kids stay within 300 miles from where they are from.   

    Now I believe Arkansas can be a program that can be a top 15 team on average every and contend for the SEC every 4 years.  I also believe over time if they built a winning tradition recruiting to Arkansas would be easier.  Arkansas is a school that needs stability and a strong foundation.  It's not an overnight fix like Bama, Ohio St, or USC-W.

    I don't think the majority of people on here are accepting mediocrity.  I just think we are being realistic and realize Arkansas is a tougher place to win than other schools.  IMO when BB was hired you needed to give him 4-5 years.  It's tougher now than ever to hire a proven P5 coach and a up and comer is a gamble.  So you risk setting back the program further than it is.  I'm sure some people think it can't get worse but it can. 

    If BB doesn't do something in the next two years then I agree that he was given every opportunity to win here and it's time move on.  Either way the program overall is better than when he took over for JLS.  So hopefully the next coach is able to build on that.
  • #36 by MuskogeeHogFan on 11 Aug 2017
  • Francis is a good name. That's not an insult. The insult is you hog "fans" expecting mediocrity..... I'll retire from this thread as there is a core differentiation in constitution. Gl guys.

    No one expects mediocrity and I don't think that anyone would tell you that this is our goal. Some posters are just a lot more rational and reasonable than you. You think that simply "demanding" more wins will equate to getting us to that point. It takes more than that. And again, you aren't "all knowing and all seeing", you are just another poster with an opinion. No more, no less.
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