AL.com-SEC Expansion: Why the Big 12 is the key to SEC adding more schools

[Inhogswetrust]

Well maybe, maybe not. I respect your opinion, but it is opinion nonetheless. I looked at their numbers this past season on Sportsmedia Watch and the numbers that they pulled for each game that was televised. Better than those teams above that I listed in the Big 12. But there is the "rub". Texas, Texas Tech, TCU and to a lesser extent, Oklahoma and Oklahoma State probably don't want Houston to join because of the incursion it might mean on their recruiting. So do you add a team that pulls more viewership than 4-5 of the teams in your conference to bolster your t.v. numbers in exchange for them pilfering your recruiting in Texas? Maybe not.

There are some schools that draw decently well even when losing or not doing as well as hoped. Houston does not and especially in the other sports besides football. I will admit that is true of other schools in extra large cities with other sports options.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

There are some schools that draw decently well even when losing or not doing as well as hoped. Houston does not and especially in the other sports besides football. I will admit that is true of other schools in extra large cities with other sports options.

OK, facts meet opinion and opinion wins. By the way, all we are talking about here is primarily football.

[Inhogswetrust]

OK, facts meet opinion and opinion wins. By the way, all we are talking about here is primarily football.

Not opinion. Here's the facts for their football attendance:

http://indotav.blogspot.com/2015/12/2015-houston-cougar-football-attendance.html?m=1

Open the link and click on the graphic. They have NEVER averaged 50,000 and since 1980 until last season they NEVER averaged 35,000.....................the best they did was the heydays of the "run and shoot" going all the way back to the  60's. This graph goes through 2015. Last year they did indeed average over 38,000. Only two games however were they even over 40,000. The interesting part is guess which team in the AAC which is the conference they are in had the highest average..........none other than East Carolina.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Not opinion. Here's the facts for their football attendance:

http://indotav.blogspot.com/2015/12/2015-houston-cougar-football-attendance.html?m=1

Open the link and click on the graphic. They have NEVER averaged 50,000 and since 1980 until last season they NEVER averaged 35,000.....................the best they did was the heydays of the "run and shoot" going all the way back to the  60's. This graph goes through 2015. Last year they did indeed average over 38,000. Only two games however were they even over 40,000. The interesting part is guess which team in the AAC which is the conference they are in had the highest average..........none other than East Carolina.

Look, I don't want to argue. We are not talking about butts in the bleachers. If the attendance numbers are that low maybe that is another reason they were passed over for an invitation to a P-5? Still, it appears that a lot more people are watching them on t.v. than are showing up for the games.

[redleg]

Conference expansion, at least for the SEC, is all about the dollars and TV viewers. Program prestige factors in as well, but not as much as the other two.
With that in mind, Clemson, Florida State, Miami, Texas, Louisville, Georgia Tech and any other major college program located in a state that already has an SEC school can be eliminated as candidates to be given an offer to join the Southeastern Conference. The SEC already has viewers in the major urban areas of those states, and it would be counter-productive to add another school from those regions.
The schools that are most likely to be offered by the SEC include:
1. Oklahoma - the prestige factor is in play here. Oklahoma City is a larger city, but is not considered a major TV area.
2. Ok. St - only because of the Sooners.
3. North Carolina - solid program, especially in basketball, viewers from Charlotte.
4. NC State - good program, Charlotte viewers.
5. Virginia Tech - solid program, viewers from the Richmond/Arlington area.
6. Virginia - same as Va Tech.
I do not see any other programs with enough prestige, and/or with a large urban viewership that would warrant an offer from the SEC.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Conference expansion, at least for the SEC, is all about the dollars and TV viewers. Program prestige factors in as well, but not as much as the other two.
With that in mind, Clemson, Florida State, Miami, Texas, Louisville, Georgia Tech and any other major college program located in a state that already has an SEC school can be eliminated as candidates to be given an offer to join the Southeastern Conference. The SEC already has viewers in the major urban areas of those states, and it would be counter-productive to add another school from those regions.
The schools that are most likely to be offered by the SEC include:
1. Oklahoma - the prestige factor is in play here. Oklahoma City is a larger city, but is not considered a major TV area.
2. Ok. St - only because of the Sooners.
3. North Carolina - solid program, especially in basketball, viewers from Charlotte.
4. NC State - good program, Charlotte viewers.
5. Virginia Tech - solid program, viewers from the Richmond/Arlington area.
6. Virginia - same as Va Tech.
I do not see any other programs with enough prestige, and/or with a large urban viewership that would warrant an offer from the SEC.

You can probably count out any of the ACC schools since their Grant of Rights runs through 2035-2036.

[Dominicanhog]

You can probably count out any of the ACC schools since their Grant of Rights runs through 2035-2036.

I agree, although you might hear rumors a couple years before 2035... or see some of the things we see in the B12.. ie. not renewing GoR, not working TV contracts etc... but imo, the teams in ACC are no longer interested in the SEC....we may have been able to entice 6-8 years ago, but their star is rising...

[Dumb ole famrboy]

West Virginia - not given much consideration in this thread. Geographically fits the SEC footprint, good reputable program. Yes, it is a small media market but has little competition within that market from other schools or professional sports franchises.

[Hogwild]

West Virginia - not given much consideration in this thread. Geographically fits the SEC footprint, good reputable program. Yes, it is a small media market but has little competition within that market from other schools or professional sports franchises.

The SEC and ACC both turned down West Virginia and then the Big 12 screwed up and took West Virginia instead of Louisville.  They probably should have taken both.

[Locutus_of_Boar]

That's true. But AL.com is overlooking the power of politics and how the moves a couple of major players in the Big 12 could have a devastating effect on 8 other members.

...

So in considering all of this and all of the damage that can be done to others by domino effect of one key power leaving, they may try to keep the conference together. But if that is the case, why are they delaying a conference expansion? No one that they add is going to bring a great deal to the conference so if you just need to get back to 12, why not Houston and Colorado State? If they want to add t.v. markets why not Cincinnati and USF? It's a mystery.

The SEC expansion will be driven by competitive balance than inventory.  Right now the SEC needs some program to challenge Bama regularly and it needs to restructure so that the best two teams meet in Atlanta every year.  That is more important than expansion to provide inventory.

The SEC needs for the B12 or whatever comes after the B12 to be considered a major conference for scheduling reasons for the SEC West teams.

As big a mess as the B12 is there are no shortage of teams willing to get into that mess.

A&M will remain the roadblock into the SEC for Texas.

ESPN and Texas have to give the LHN a reason to exist outside Texas.  Texas needs to play as few B12 teams as it can avoid and as many other Big 5 teams as it can schedule.

Texas has the Notre Dame model to follow. 

I see it along these lines:  Texas to remain to hold the B12 together for all other sports but go independent in football with a nationwide schedule built by ESPN with a modified LHN deal. 

OU to follow along in the wake of Texas as usual also declaring football independence and part of the same scheduling deal. 

Reopen the B12 lottery and pick the four highest profile teams to replace OU and UT in football with a scheduling deal with the SEC as a Big 5 conference.

In parallel the SEC eliminates divisional play with the top two teams automatically meeting in Atlanta.  Scheduling deals with LHN (UT & OU) and the revamped B12 allow all SEC members to have at least 10 Big 5 opponents per year and avoid a nine game SEC schedule further into the future.
 

[Dumb ole famrboy]

The SEC and ACC both turned down West Virginia and then the Big 12 screwed up and took West Virginia instead of Louisville.  They probably should have taken both.

https://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/sec-football/report-west-virginia-may-joined-sec-mizzou-passed-2012/

[Hogwild]

https://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/sec-football/report-west-virginia-may-joined-sec-mizzou-passed-2012/

from your article- WV's AD Luck said that

we may have had an opportunity – and I emphasize the word maybe – to be in the SEC

Then CBS reported-

https://twitter.com/Brett_McMurphy/status/116175835815350272

Big East member West Virginia has been denied conference admittance by the ACC and SEC, according to a report.

CBSSports.com reports that West Virginia's overtures to the two conferences were rebuffed, citing a Big East conference source.

West Virginia officials informed the Big East that it would remain in the conference after its gestures weren't kindly received.

West Virginia fans have pined for SEC admittance, but another report on Tuesday indicates the conference has targeted Missouri as its 14th member. Missouri has been offered a spot in the SEC, per the Kansas City Star, but could wait to see what happens with the Big 10 before it makes a decision.

Apparently they've come to us, the MU booster said of the SEC to the Kansas City Star. I've been told there is an offer on the table.

In addition to the much preferred SEC, the ACC has also turned down the Mountaineers. After extending invites to Pittsburgh and Syracuse, the ACC could sit at 14 teams for the time being.

Furthermore the news likely suggests that Connecticut and Rutgers are considered more desirable options than West Virginia.

http://www.ibtimes.com/west-virginia-rejected-acc-sec-report-316032

As talk continues to heat up about "super conferences" West Virginia has seen two other bids to join those conferences turned down.
This is hardly a shocking development from the ACC. The conference has turned down the Mountaineers a few times in the past and maintained a firm line of not accepting them into their academically elite conference. Not every conference considers academics very highly for inclusion, but the ACC is one that does.

West Virginia has never been known for their academics. More than anything, the school is known for its active student life. According to College Football Talk, they are not a member of Association of American Universities as it is.

As for the SEC, they don't gain much from including West Virginia at all. There is minimal recruiting, no major market and they don't have a dire need to anybody else should the conferences decide to expand.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

The SEC expansion will be driven by competitive balance than inventory.  Right now the SEC needs some program to challenge Bama regularly and it needs to restructure so that the best two teams meet in Atlanta every year.  That is more important than expansion to provide inventory.

The SEC needs for the B12 or whatever comes after the B12 to be considered a major conference for scheduling reasons for the SEC West teams.

As big a mess as the B12 is there are no shortage of teams willing to get into that mess.

A&M will remain the roadblock into the SEC for Texas.

ESPN and Texas have to give the LHN a reason to exist outside Texas.  Texas needs to play as few B12 teams as it can avoid and as many other Big 5 teams as it can schedule.

Texas has the Notre Dame model to follow. 

I see it along these lines:  Texas to remain to hold the B12 together for all other sports but go independent in football with a nationwide schedule built by ESPN with a modified LHN deal. 

OU to follow along in the wake of Texas as usual also declaring football independence and part of the same scheduling deal. 

Reopen the B12 lottery and pick the four highest profile teams to replace OU and UT in football with a scheduling deal with the SEC as a Big 5 conference.

In parallel the SEC eliminates divisional play with the top two teams automatically meeting in Atlanta.  Scheduling deals with LHN (UT & OU) and the revamped B12 allow all SEC members to have at least 10 Big 5 opponents per year and avoid a nine game SEC schedule further into the future.
 

I don't see Texas or OU doing anything until 2025 if they do anything then. Texas is sitting in the catbirds seat receiving money for the LHN and both ESPN and Fox are tied up in t.v. deals with the remainder of the Big 12, including Oklahoma.

When discussing expansion and increased money from their t.v. package, it has been said that the received push-back from ESPN and Fox, so the B12 decided to cooperate with the networks and decided to not extend their GOR's that expires in 2025. That might suggest that movement of some kind is going to take place in conjunction with that expiration and it could be that all of the 10 parties are making plans and perhaps having discussions with other conferences to make certain that everyone who wants a home post 2025, has one.

I'd bet Oklahoma will not go independent. Texas may, Oklahoma won't. 

[Dumb ole famrboy]

from your article- WV's AD Luck said that
Then CBS reported-

https://twitter.com/Brett_McMurphy/status/116175835815350272

http://www.ibtimes.com/west-virginia-rejected-acc-sec-report-316032

"Then CBS Reported" ? You write. That tweet was made in 2011 - My SaturdayDownSouth link is an article from two years ago.

[Inhogswetrust]

What the SEC needs to do is to invite Texas and let them keep LHN with the condition that 20% of all programming would focus on other SEC teams.  That would be a win, win.  SEC gets a bigger share of the Texas market, other SEC teams get some play on LHN, and Texas gets to play in a better conference.

That might be the dumbest idea concerning conference realignment I've ever read.

[Hogwild]

Yes, your article was written two years ago and 4 years after they were turned down.  All your article stated was their former AD said that had Missouri not joined the SEC, then maybe and he even emphasized the word, maybe, they would have been considered.

There were a dozen articles written when West Virginia was turned down by SEC & ACC. Some even breaking down the reasons why WV was rejected. The bottom line is the ACC has turned them down multiple times and the SEC took a pass.  The reasons why they were turned down haven't changed.

[Inhogswetrust]

Look, I don't want to argue. We are not talking about butts in the bleachers. If the attendance numbers are that low maybe that is another reason they were passed over for an invitation to a P-5? Still, it appears that a lot more people are watching them on t.v. than are showing up for the games.

I'm not trying to be argumentative either. I believe, though have no proof, that there might be a correlation to TV viewership and actual attendance usually. In larger markets like Houston though TV viewership might not be related to attendance as much.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

I'm not trying to be argumentative either. I believe, though have no proof, that there might be a correlation to TV viewership and actual attendance usually. In larger markets like Houston though TV viewership might not be related to attendance as much.

Here's an article on Houston's typically poor attendance figures and apparently, it has always been that way. Maybe one of the problems is being a professional sports team town. Just so many sports entertainment dollars to go around. That would explain why Houston draws pretty decent t.v. viewership, but can't fill the stadium?

Herman wants to know what more he can do, since he's already put a better, more exciting product on the field. But that's really got nothing to do with it. The Cougars couldn't sell out the Dome during the Jack Pardee Run-and-Shoot years (well, the UT and A&M fans sold out the place for those games, but that doesn't really count). Kevin Sumlin's teams were good and exciting, and it was still hard to sell out Robertson Stadium — only in Sumlin's last year as coach did the stadium sell out, but that was a perfect storm of high ranking, Case Keenum and an undefeated season.

Sure, UH has shot itself in the foot a few times. The out-of-conference scheduling has been atrocious, and the Tony Levine years destroyed just about all momentum built up by the program during the Art Briles/Kevin Sumlin regimes. And marketing is not exactly the school's strength. The losses to Texas State to start the Levine era, and the loss to UTSA on the opening night of TDECU Stadium, also did some damage. And Levine produced some really boring football.

But enough of the damn excuses. No power conference is ever going to invite UH to join as long as it can't sell out a 40,000 season stadium on a weekly basis. And SEC and Pac 12 teams play on Thursday nights all of the time and the start times for just about every football team in every conference are dictated by ESPN or some other television network. That's the way it goes nowadays in college football.

The rest, written in 2015 when Herman was still the HC, is in here:

http://www.houstonpress.com/news/tom-hermans-not-happy-with-uh-attendance-7871103

[Hogwild]

No power conference is ever going to invite UH to join as long as it can't sell out a 40,000 season stadium on a weekly basis

That is a major impediment for Houston joining a P5 conference.  Coupled with the fact that the Big 12 & SEC already have a presence in the Houston market. 

One of the major issues that came up when the Big 12 was considering expansion was Houston's athletic dept. finances.  Last few years they have been running around a 2 million deficit, which isn't surprising since most athletic department lose money.  What is a major concern is that they are running a deficit despite receiving over $25 million in state subsidies, which is greater then all of the Big 12 schools combined.   

[Inhogswetrust]

Here's an article on Houston's typically poor attendance figures and apparently, it has always been that way. Maybe one of the problems is being a professional sports team town. Just so many sports entertainment dollars to go around. That would explain why Houston draws pretty decent t.v. viewership, but can't fill the stadium?

Herman wants to know what more he can do, since he's already put a better, more exciting product on the field. But that's really got nothing to do with it. The Cougars couldn't sell out the Dome during the Jack Pardee Run-and-Shoot years (well, the UT and A&M fans sold out the place for those games, but that doesn't really count). Kevin Sumlin's teams were good and exciting, and it was still hard to sell out Robertson Stadium — only in Sumlin's last year as coach did the stadium sell out, but that was a perfect storm of high ranking, Case Keenum and an undefeated season.

Sure, UH has shot itself in the foot a few times. The out-of-conference scheduling has been atrocious, and the Tony Levine years destroyed just about all momentum built up by the program during the Art Briles/Kevin Sumlin regimes. And marketing is not exactly the school's strength. The losses to Texas State to start the Levine era, and the loss to UTSA on the opening night of TDECU Stadium, also did some damage. And Levine produced some really boring football.

But enough of the damn excuses. No power conference is ever going to invite UH to join as long as it can't sell out a 40,000 season stadium on a weekly basis. And SEC and Pac 12 teams play on Thursday nights all of the time and the start times for just about every football team in every conference are dictated by ESPN or some other television network. That's the way it goes nowadays in college football.

The rest, written in 2015 when Herman was still the HC, is in here:

http://www.houstonpress.com/news/tom-hermans-not-happy-with-uh-attendance-7871103

Excellent reply. I also believe pro sports growth in major markets over the years have really hurt college teams in those places. Even IF Houston sold out their stadium all of the time I doubt they would get in a P5 conference  unless Texas pulls something out of their Bevo to help them get in the little 12. Selling out a 40,000 seat stadium still doesn't men one deserves to be bumped up to a more prestigious conference. As the article mentions the only time they drew decent numbers were when playing Texas or TAMU. THAT says a lot. It says they don't have a large fan base to begin with despite haing a large student population. The reasons for that is what is questionable. One thing that hurts them is being a large population "commuter school". Those have problems with getting life-long fans except in a couple of instances at those types of schools. Even then I think they tend to be fickle and fair weather moreso.

[Inhogswetrust]

That is a major impediment for Houston joining a P5 conference.  Coupled with the fact that the Big 12 & SEC already have a presence in the Houston market. 

One of the major issues that came up when the Big 12 was considering expansion was Houston's athletic dept. finances.  Last few years they have been running around a 2 million deficit, which isn't surprising since most athletic department lose money.  What is a major concern is that they are running a deficit despite receiving over $25 million in state subsidies, which is greater then all of the Big 12 schools combined.   

Exactly! Neither conference needs Houston in their conference to draw decent numbers in the Houston TV market. They have schools with a lot of fans there. It's the same in Memphis where I live and other large cities.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Excellent reply. I also believe pro sports growth in major markets over the years have really hurt college teams in those places. Even IF Houston sold out their stadium all of the time I doubt they would get in a P5 conference  unless Texas pulls something out of their Bevo to help them get in the little 12. Selling out a 40,000 seat stadium still doesn't men one deserves to be bumped up to a more prestigious conference. As the article mentions the only time they drew decent numbers were when playing Texas or TAMU. THAT says a lot. It says they don't have a large fan base to begin with despite haing a large student population. The reasons for that is what is questionable. One thing that hurts them is being a large population "commuter school". Those have problems with getting life-long fans except in a couple of instances at those types of schools. Even then I think they tend to be fickle and fair weather moreso.

It actually talked about them selling out when Sumlin was there as well, when they were winning a high number of games and had a nationally recognized and publicized QB. Now from a viewership standpoint they are drawing around 1 million p/game +/- which is better than most B12 schools, but I would say that not being able to fill or come close to filling the stadium definitely works against them.

[Inhogswetrust]

It actually talked about them selling out when Sumlin was there as well, when they were winning a high number of games and had a nationally recognized and publicized QB. Now from a viewership standpoint they are drawing around 1 million p/game +/- which is better than most B12 schools, but I would say that not being able to fill or come close to filling the stadium definitely works against them.

Agree. Yet it isn't just football, but we all know that is the monster in the room, it is also all their other sports. Their once great baseball team is a shadow of it's former self in play and following. Then some would say that about the Hog basketball team as well. Sad but true.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Agree. Yet it isn't just football, but we all know that is the monster in the room, it is also all their other sports. Their once great baseball team is a shadow of it's former self in play and following. Then some would say that about the Hog basketball team as well. Sad but true.

Think about how much more valued Kansas would be to potential suitors today if they also had a football program that contended in the Big 12? Sure, they have great basketball and that is enough to carry them into another P-5 Conference if the B12 does actually implode, but think about how earnestly they would be pursued if they had good or better football? Yes, it is about total value, but being pretty good at football tends to add a lot of value. The Kansas campus is beautiful and their stadium is a nice venue. But they have sucked at football ever since they dismissed Mark Mangino. They remind me a lot of Kentucky. If they can be really good at basketball and just o.k. at football, they are pretty happy. Unfortunately they are wrong headed, they need to be excellent at basketball and kinda excellent at football and they can be both, if that is what they choose to do. But they won't. Basketball will always be King in Lawrence, while football remains the King across the country.

[Inhogswetrust]

Think about how much more valued Kansas would be to potential suitors today if they also had a football program that contended in the Big 12? Sure, they have great basketball and that is enough to carry them into another P-5 Conference if the B12 does actually implode, but think about how earnestly they would be pursued if they had good or better football? Yes, it is about total value, but being pretty good at football tends to add a lot of value.

They would be a prime candidate IF they had a decent football program. It is my understanding they are trying to make an effort to put more emphasis on football. I think they have a plan to really fix up their stadium soon as a part of that. One has to wonder IF that is in response to possible conference realignment in the future and a fear of maybe getting left out. I've always thought they had much more potential than they've shown and also more than their KSU in state rival. It's baffling as to why they haven't done something about it in the past.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

They would be a prime candidate IF they had a decent football program. It is my understanding they are trying to make an effort to put more emphasis on football. I think they have a plan to really fix up their stadium soon as a part of that. One has to wonder IF that is in response to possible future conference realignment in the future. I've always thought they had much more potential than they've shown and also more than their KSU in state rival. It's baffling as to why they haven't done something about it in the past.

Kansas is a bunch of liberal tea-sippers who wish to be on the same level of academic consideration of that of the Ivy League schools while focusing on basketball as the main sport. But basketball at Kansas, as great as it may be, cannot possibly contend with the value of a strong football program. They view KSU as the 4 year JC of the state. They really look down their noses at K-State, the blue collar school. As smart as KU considers themselves to be, you would think that they could figure out the true value of a first class football program. Long ago they had a good program, but lost their vision of what it takes to remain competitive. 

[hobhog]

OU and lite would be disastrous for Hog program. We need to be the western front of the conference. It matters.

[Inhogswetrust]

Kansas is a bunch of liberal tea-sippers who wish to be on the same level of academic consideration of that of the Ivy League schools while focusing on basketball as the main sport. But basketball at Kansas, as great as it may be, cannot possibly contend with the value of a strong football program. They view KSU as the 4 year JC of the state. They really look down their noses at K-State, the blue collar school. As smart as KU considers themselves to be, you would think that they could figure out the true value of a first class football program. Long ago they had a good program, but lost their vision of what it takes to remain competitive. 

Good points. As far as I know they've had one great player Gale Sayers. Another good one was John Riggins.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

OU and lite would be disastrous for Hog program. We need to be the western front of the conference. It matters.

Yeah well, reality is that this won't always be the case. The B12 is the first up for change in 2025 and the change will most likely be planned and in place by 2024 at the latest. Disastrous? Probably not. We aren't going East with the ACC GOR's not expiring until 2035-36, and the SEC can't afford to allow a strong and nationally followed program like Oklahoma to get away and right now, it is likely that if you take OU you are going to have to take Okla State as well, though that may change between now and then.

[hobhog]

Yeah well, reality is that this won't always be the case. The B12 is the first up for change in 2025 and the change will most likely be planned and in place by 2024 at the latest. Disastrous? Probably not. We aren't going East with the ACC GOR's not expiring until 2035-36, and the SEC can't afford to allow a strong and nationally followed program like Oklahoma to get away and right now, it is likely that if you take OU you are going to have to take Okla State as well, though that may change between now and then.

My point is that if/when that happens we will be pushed further down the Sec totem pole. Both in recruiting and in conference priority. It would not be good- double the addition of A$M.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Good points. As far as I know they've had one great player Gale Sayers. Another good one was John Riggins.

They have had a few others. John Hadl, Bobby Douglas, John Zook, Larry Brown, Steve Conley (became a first rate DB), Nolan Cromwell (who also became a first rate DB in the NFL) and that is about all that I can remember who had a lot of success after leaving Kansas, though there may be more. The ones I think of happened a long time ago.

[Inhogswetrust]

They have had a few others. John Hadl, Bobby Douglas, John Zook, Larry Brown, Steve Conley (became a first rate DB), Nolan Cromwell (who also became a first rate DB in the NFL) and that is about all that I can remember who had a lot of success after leaving Kansas, though there may be more. The ones I think of happened a long time ago.

I forgot about Hadl. I didn't know about the others.

[GuvHog]

OU and lite would be disastrous for Hog program. We need to be the western front of the conference. It matters.

I disagree. I think adding OU and Oklahoma State to the SEC West with Bama and Auburn moving to the SEC East would actually help the Hogs. I like the Hogs chances of getting to the SEC Championship game better without having to play Bama and Auburn every year.

[HiggiePiggy]

I disagree. I think adding OU and Oklahoma State to the SEC West with Bama and Auburn moving to the SEC East would actually help the Hogs.

If that happen it would help very little, but adding another team that would out recruit us would be putting us even further down the line in the SEC. it would hurt our chances with getting recruits out of Texas more and Oklahoma for sure.

[GuvHog]

If that happen it would help very little, but adding another team that would out recruit us would be putting us even further down the line in the SEC. it would hurt our chances with getting recruits out of Texas more and Oklahoma for sure.

I don't think so. It might hurt Bama's and Auburn's Texas recruiting though. It would hurt the Longhorns recruiting worse than ours.

[HiggiePiggy]

I don't think so. It might hurt Bama's and Auburn's Texas recruiting though. It would hurt the Longhorns recruiting worse than ours.

Auburn isn't a power house. Nothing will hurt Alabama except for when Nick Saban retires.  To think that moving another power house type program into the SEC and it's little brother won't hurt Arkansas is funny.  It will really hurt us more in Texas. Oklahoma is a better program to go to than Arkansas is and being able to say hey we are now in the sec will drive anyone that would normally think of Arkansas to Oklahoma.  If it were just Oklahoma state then no it would not hurt as much.

[Inhogswetrust]

Auburn isn't a power house. Nothing will hurt Alabama except for when Nick Saban retires.  To think that moving another power house type program into the SEC and it's little brother won't hurt Arkansas is funny.  It will really hurt us more in Texas. Oklahoma is a better program to go to than Arkansas is and being able to say hey we are now in the sec will drive anyone that would normally think of Arkansas to Oklahoma.  If it were just Oklahoma state then no it would not hurt as much.

OU already and has always recruited so heavily in Texas it wouldn't have an impact on us so much.

[HiggiePiggy]

OU already and has always recruited so heavily in Texas it wouldn't have an impact on us so much.

No but it would hurt any chance of a top kid coming out of Oklahoma coming to Arkansas.  Question does Felix Jones come to Arkansas if Oklahoma or Oklahoma State are in the SEC? 

[Inhogswetrust]

No but it would hurt any chance of a top kid coming out of Oklahoma coming to Arkansas.  Question does Felix Jones come to Arkansas if Oklahoma or Oklahoma State are in the SEC? 

As good as OU has been over the years we've managed to get quite a few really good players out of there.

[HiggiePiggy]

As good as OU has been over the years we've managed to get quite a few really good players out of there.

I understand that, but the huge difference is they were not in the SEC.  just like Texas A&M, them joining hurt Arkansas so will the Oklahoma schools. 

[GuvHog]

I understand that, but the huge difference is they were not in the SEC.  just like Texas A&M, them joining hurt Arkansas so will the Oklahoma schools. 

The Hogs Texas recruiting had already declined long before the Aggies joined the SEC. It started to happen when the Hogs left the SWC to join the SEC. A&M moving to the SEC really didn't hurt Hog recruiting in Tezas. It really hurt the Longhorns bad though. The improvement in recruiting the state of Louisiana and other SEC states has easily made up for what the Hogs lost in Texas.

[hobhog]

I understand that, but the huge difference is they were not in the SEC.  just like Texas A&M, them joining hurt Arkansas so will the Oklahoma schools.

Exactly. We need the expansion to come from east side of conference. Anyone who doesn't understand that hasn't been paying attention. Unfortunately, the decision makers for SEC could care less about our situation and would take OU and State in heartbeat. Be better for conference as whole, just not us.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Exactly. We need the expansion to come from east side of conference. Anyone who doesn't understand that hasn't been paying attention. Unfortunately, the decision makers for SEC could care less about our situation and would take OU and State in heartbeat. Be better for conference as whole, just not us.

We already talked about the ACC's GOR's not expiring until 2035-2036, so who else in the East would you suggest?

[Murr]

That is a major impediment for Houston joining a P5 conference.  Coupled with the fact that the Big 12 & SEC already have a presence in the Houston market. 

One of the major issues that came up when the Big 12 was considering expansion was Houston's athletic dept. finances.  Last few years they have been running around a 2 million deficit, which isn't surprising since most athletic department lose money.  What is a major concern is that they are running a deficit despite receiving over $25 million in state subsidies, which is greater then all of the Big 12 schools combined.

Houston's plan was to try and secure a P5 spot, possibly in the B12.  It was worth the shot, but when the B12 tabled that idea after reviewing all those schools' presentations last summer, the opportunity to upgrade closed for another 5-10 years.  Herman left for UT, and Applewhite has a huge buyout clause to keep him from jumping.  Houston is supposed to be adjusting their athletic budget to align with their normal revenue flows.

[GuvHog]

Exactly. We need the expansion to come from east side of conference. Anyone who doesn't understand that hasn't been paying attention. Unfortunately, the decision makers for SEC could care less about our situation and would take OU and State in heartbeat. Be better for conference as whole, just not us.

Anyone who doesn't understand that the SEC expanding from the east will not happen and the reasons why isn't paying attention.

[Hogwild]

Anyone who doesn't understand that the SEC expanding from the east will not happen and the reasons why isn't paying attention.

Anyone who doesn't understand that the SEC expanding with two teams from Oklahoma will not happen and the financial reasons why.

[GuvHog]

Anyone who doesn't understand that the SEC expanding with two teams from Oklahoma will not happen and the financial reasons why.

You're wrong and I've already explained why.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Anyone who doesn't understand that the SEC expanding with two teams from Oklahoma will not happen and the financial reasons why.

IF, the SEC expands at all in the next 7-8 years, who will be available? It isn't going to be any Pac 12 or Big Ten teams and it sure isn't going to be any ACC teams. Who remains?

[Hogwild]

IF, the SEC expands at all in the next 7-8 years, who will be available? It isn't going to be any Pac 12 or Big Ten teams and it sure isn't going to be any ACC teams. Who remains?

First if they can't east, I doubt they expand. 
If they do get to add OU,  they would definitely take Kansas ahead of Ok State.

[GuvHog]

First if they can't east, I doubt they expand. 
If they do get to add OU,  they would definitely take Kansas ahead of Ok State.

OU won't come without Okla State and Kansas isn't coming without Kansas State. Of the 2, getting OU and OSU is the better deal.

In my opinion (and it's strictly an opinion, nothing more) the Big 12 will break up before their Grant of Rights agreement expires and here is what I think will happen:

Texas, Texas Tech, Kansas, and Kansas State to PAC 12 (Texas will shut down the Longhorn Network as part of the agreement)
Oklahoma and Oklahoma State to SEC West
Iowa State and West Virginia to Big 10 (or the ACC will release Louisville from their Grant of rights agreement allowing them to go to the Big 10 and take West Virginia in their place)
Baylor and TCU to either the Mountain West or WAC