Record-wise, Hogs are SEC's No. 2 team over last three years

[edemire]

Does this surprise you?

Despite the maddening inconsistency, the below rankings are a feather in the cap for the program.

Best SEC records last 3 seasons (reg season + SECT):

1. KY 48-7
2. Hogs 32-21
3. A&M 31-21
4. FL 30-22
5. GA 30-24
6. OM 28-23
7. USC 29-24

We'll see if the gap between No. 1 and No. 2 can be significantly narrowed in the next three years!

Stats via Kevin McPherson @ARHoopScoop

[Kevin McPherson]

Does this surprise you?

Despite the maddening inconsistency, the below rankings are a feather in the cap for the program.

Best SEC records last 3 seasons (reg season + SECT):

1. KY 48-7
2. Hogs 32-21
3. A&M 31-21
4. FL 30-22
5. GA 30-24
6. OM 28-23
7. USC 29-24

We'll see if the gap between No. 1 and No. 2 can be significantly narrowed in the next three years!

Stats via Kevin McPherson @ARHoopScoop

Want more? Try this one on Hog fans ... nothing set in stone, this is an IF based on what Hogs do rest of the way, BUT ...

https://twitter.com/ARHoopScoop/status/832236189612638208

[BRHogfan]

I feel like this is nice, but its similar to the Football team having one of the best records over the last 24 games or whatever.  I want to finish 2nd in the SEC every year.  I want to beat the brains out of Kentucky ever year, but we have to start finishing 2nd first.

[DeltaBoy]

Sometimes Facts don't line up with peoples perceptions.

[Pork Twain]

What about the last six years?  Why just choose the last 3?  Data is dangerous when it is cherry picked.

[dhizzle]

I love this stuff when people go digging around to find facts that fit their agenda. All  I know is when the sec was sucking in basketball the hogs should of been second every year. Now some these teams actually have better coaches and recruits, therefore it is going to be harder to win second from here on out. I do hope MA gets the program going in the right direction.

[Kevin McPherson]

What about the last six years?  Why just choose the last 3?  Data is dangerous when it is cherry picked.

Because the program was in awful shape when CMA came home -- he inherited worst road record in SEC, player suspensions, departures, low roster numbers, lack of talent, toxic in-house culture, academic / APR problems, etc. It was so bad that he deserved a 2-year pass ... Jeff Long said he deserved 3-year pass, but I disagree with that because I think '13-14 should have been an NCAAT team, but went to the NIT instead.

However, that was the first postseason tourney for the Hogs in 6 years. If the Hogs Dance this year, that means ...

* 2 NCAAT's in last 3 years (2nd-best in SEC to KY w/3 in 3)
* 3 NCAAT/NIT in 3 of last 4 years
* Likely maintain 2nd-best SEC record last 3 years
* Add to all that the 3 best consecutive recruiting classes under CMA (2016, 2017, and 2018) and it is CLEAR the program is far ahead where it was under Heath and Pelphrey ... AND it is obviously on a trajectory to being 2nd to KY, possibly better than KY in a year or two (disclaimer: not better in terms of recruiting and nat'l hype, but in terms of battling for SEC titles ... TAMU tied KY for SEC title last year, and FLA tied right now with KY ... Hogs not far off).

Hogs aren't there yet, so not counting chickens before they hatch, but it's close.

The 1 in 5 argument was never really valid, IMO, because the program was in shambles. Look at Frank Martin (4 yrs at SCar), Bruce Pearl (3 yrs at Auburn), Ben Howland (2 yrs at MSU), Rick Barnes (2 yrs at TN), Avery Johnson (2 yrs at Bama) -- that's a lot of quality coaches, and barring unforeseen winning of the SECT, only 1 of them will Dance as an at-large (Martin and SCar).

Point is, those guys are looking at year 3 at best, maybe year 4 before they sniff the Dance. NOT unlike what CMA went through, something to consider when the 1 and 5 chatter gets cranked up.

[Letsroll1200]

I love this stuff when people go digging around to find facts that fit their agenda. All  I know is when the sec was sucking in basketball the hogs should of been second every year. Now some these teams actually have better coaches and recruits, therefore it is going to be harder to win second from here on out. I do hope MA gets the program going in the right direction.

What recruits? what coaches? How are they performing this season? Are they projected to make the NCAA tournament?

[Vandyhog4]

Misleading statistic that is pretty worthless considering that this season isn't even over. 

[ShadowHawg]

What about the last six years?  Why just choose the last 3?  Data is dangerous when it is cherry picked.

Didn't I just see in another thread where you were giving CBB a mulligan for having to rebuild the football team? Why couldn't that apply here as well?

[hogwood]

What about the last six years?  Why just choose the last 3?  Data is dangerous when it is cherry picked.

First 3 don't count. We're looking at the last 3 because that is when Mike's program has had a chance to be "established" or whatever. The last 3 years can give you a better idea of the future rather than the first 3.

[poloprince]

What about the last six years?  Why just choose the last 3?  Data is dangerous when it is cherry picked.

Didn't you hear JL say the first 3 seasons were a wash for MA.

[hogwood]

The 1 in 5 argument was never really valid, IMO, because the program was in shambles. Look at Frank Martin (4 yrs at SCar), Bruce Pearl (3 yrs at Auburn), Ben Howland (2 yrs at MSU), Rick Barnes (2 yrs at TN), Avery Johnson (2 yrs at Bama) -- that's a lot of quality coaches, and barring unforeseen winning of the SECT, only 1 of them will Dance as an at-large (Martin and SCar).

Point is, those guys are looking at year 3 at best, maybe year 4 before they sniff the Dance. NOT unlike what CMA went through, something to consider when the 1 and 5 chatter gets cranked up.

That is an excellent point. A lot of people here, including myself at times, have talked about the other "great coaches" who are coming into the SEC and how Mike needs to "step his game up" to compete. Some have been recruiting better than Mike, but none have exceeded Mike in his successes during the same timeline.

[Pork Twain]

The program was in great shape when MA took over.  Nice talent on the roster, solid class coming and Pel had fixed the APR issue.  On top of that, he got to play in the crappy SEC.  I am not getting where you guys are coming from with this talk about our program being in shambles, all we needed was a quality coach, what we got was MA.  I would kill to have a boss as understanding as some of you guys

[Atlhogfan1]

Because the program was in awful shape when CMA came home -- he inherited worst road record in SEC, player suspensions, departures, low roster numbers, lack of talent, toxic in-house culture, academic / APR problems, etc. It was so bad that he deserved a 2-year pass ... Jeff Long said he deserved 3-year pass, but I disagree with that because I think '13-14 should have been an NCAAT team, but went to the NIT instead.

However, that was the first postseason tourney for the Hogs in 6 years. If the Hogs Dance this year, that means ...

* 2 NCAAT's in last 3 years (2nd-best in SEC to KY w/3 in 3)
* 3 NCAAT/NIT in 3 of last 4 years
* Likely maintain 2nd-best SEC record last 3 years
* Add to all that the 3 best consecutive recruiting classes under CMA (2016, 2017, and 2018) and it is CLEAR the program is far ahead where it was under Heath and Pelphrey ... AND it is obviously on a trajectory to being 2nd to KY, possibly better than KY in a year or two (disclaimer: not better in terms of recruiting and nat'l hype, but in terms of battling for SEC titles ... TAMU tied KY for SEC title last year, and FLA tied right now with KY ... Hogs not far off).

Hogs aren't there yet, so not counting chickens before they hatch, but it's close.

The 1 in 5 argument was never really valid, IMO, because the program was in shambles. Look at Frank Martin (4 yrs at SCar), Bruce Pearl (3 yrs at Auburn), Ben Howland (2 yrs at MSU), Rick Barnes (2 yrs at TN), Avery Johnson (2 yrs at Bama) -- that's a lot of quality coaches, and barring unforeseen winning of the SECT, only 1 of them will Dance as an at-large (Martin and SCar).

Point is, those guys are looking at year 3 at best, maybe year 4 before they sniff the Dance. NOT unlike what CMA went through, something to consider when the 1 and 5 chatter gets cranked up.

Overselling.  Awful would be what Crean inherited at IU.  Or Martin at SC where they had lost 24 of their last 27 SEC games under Horn.  The APR at Arkansas was already improving.  Mike just couldn't overhaul the roster early enough to suit his needs.  This is where it was a hindrance although his recruiting especially of guards and combo forwards was so poor not sure what difference it would have made.  Long could have given Anderson a 6-7 year pass.  Wouldn't have made any difference in the job security or evaluation. 

IMO, our program wasn't in shambles.  You are setting the bar extremely low comparing Mike to Heath and Pelphrey.  As my sig line states from an "outside" media member, he wasn't hired to do what he did at UAB or Mizzou.  And I'll add to that, he wasn't hired to just be better than Heath or Pelphrey.  You are also setting it low comparing us to those other programs you listed. 

You can stop selling so hard.  Many of your cherry picked numbers can be put into context.  They have in some way.  We've had these discussions about your selling points repeatedly.  It isn't going to change minds.  Just continues the arguing. 

[Kevin McPherson]

The program was in great shape when MA took over.  Nice talent on the roster, solid class coming and Pel had fixed the APR issue.  On top of that, he got to play in the crappy SEC.  I am not getting where you guys are coming from with this talk about our program being in shambles, all we needed was a quality coach, what we got was MA.  I would kill to have a boss as understanding as some of you guys

Not sure if serious. In the event you actually believe what you typed ...

Pel had player issues immediately starting with his first class. He was constantly suspending players his last 3 seasons, running off his OWN recruits, plus guys quitting on him. Powell quit not once, but twice, DURING GAMES. Rotnei threatened to transfer after every season. Henry and the juco transfer (can't think of his name off the top of my head, but he was run off after about 4 gms) were serious trouble. Fortson always in the doghouse & suspended. APR issues galore that started back in the Heath regime.

Long didn't just fire Pel over awful teams and lagging fan support, he did an in-house investigation regarding all the issues and concluded that Pel was the problem, not the fixer of problems.

And Pel's last recruiting class was so overrated. You saw what MA and Bill Self got out of Mickelson, you saw it take 2 years to develop Madden into a fringe All SEC player but nothing special. BJ Young was a head-case like so many of Pel's recruits, not coachable, and where is he now? Abron was nothing to brag about either. Aside from those guys, MA inherited Nobles, Sanchez, Waithe, Wade, Scott, and Marshawn (who blew out his knee in 2nd game of year 1) ... that's 10 scholarship players (down to 9 after losing best player Powell, who was on-again, off-again with effort).

And just think, BEFORE Pel made things worse, the program was bad enough to send Dana A running back to the exciting metroplex of Omaha, Nebraska with the other flatlanders ... after less than 24 hours as HC. Yep, CMA walked into a dream scenario.

[Atlhogfan1]

Pelphrey botched the roster turnover after season 1 setup by Heath by taking too many character risks.  It is what happens when you hire an inexperienced head coach in over his head who thinks he won't be given time to build a program correctly and can't recruit well.  Bad mix and mistake hire as we all know. 

[Pork Twain]

Not sure if serious. In the event you actually believe what you typed ...

Pel had player issues immediately starting with his first class. He was constantly suspending players his last 3 seasons, running off his OWN recruits, plus guys quitting on him. Powell quit not once, but twice, DURING GAMES. Rotnei threatened to transfer after every season. Henry and the juco transfer (can't think of his name off the top of my head, but he was run off after about 4 gms) were serious trouble. Fortson always in the doghouse & suspended. APR issues galore that started back in the Heath regime.

Long didn't just fire Pel over awful teams and lagging fan support, he did an in-house investigation regarding all the issues and concluded that Pel was the problem, not the fixer of problems.

And Pel's last recruiting class was so overrated. You saw what MA and Bill Self got out of Mickelson, you saw it take 2 years to develop Madden into a fringe All SEC player but nothing special. BJ Young was a head-case like so many of Pel's recruits, not coachable, and where is he now? Abron was nothing to brag about either. Aside from those guys, MA inherited Nobles, Sanchez, Waithe, Wade, Scott, and Marshawn (who blew out his knee in 2nd game of year 1) ... that's 10 scholarship players (down to 9 after losing best player Powell, who was on-again, off-again with effort).

And just think, BEFORE Pel made things worse, the program was bad enough to send Dana A running back to the exciting metroplex of Omaha, Nebraska with the other flatlanders ... after less than 24 hours as HC. Yep, CMA walked into a dream scenario.

Rumor is that Dana left because of our APR mess, and Pel was hired instead.  Pel fixed that and while he did have player issues, it was not with the players that he left for MA.  Lets not distort the facts here.  Marshawn Powell,  Rotnei Clarke , Glenn Bryant, Marvell Waithe, Michael Sanchez and Mardracus Wade were a solid, but not great foundation for him to build on and B.J. Young, Rashad Madden, Hunter Mickelson and Devonta Abron is a class we were all excited about.  NOBODY complained about this class when it was signed.  Were they overrated or inadequately developed?  Likely a combo of both.

2011 class #7 overall, gave us B.J. Young, Rashad Madden, Hunter Mickelson, and Devonta Abron
http://247sports.com/Season/2011-Basketball/CompositeTeamRankings

2010 was crap and only gave us Rickey Scott

2009 class #31 overall, gave us Marshawn Powell and Glenn Bryant
http://247sports.com/Season/2009-Basketball/CompositeTeamRankings

2008 class #21 overall, gave us Rotnei Clarke
http://247sports.com/Season/2008-Basketball/CompositeTeamRankings

[jjdlc]

Not sure if serious. In the event you actually believe what you typed ...

Pel had player issues immediately starting with his first class. He was constantly suspending players his last 3 seasons, running off his OWN recruits, plus guys quitting on him. Powell quit not once, but twice, DURING GAMES. Rotnei threatened to transfer after every season. Henry and the juco transfer (can't think of his name off the top of my head, but he was run off after about 4 gms) were serious trouble. Fortson always in the doghouse & suspended. APR issues galore that started back in the Heath regime.

Long didn't just fire Pel over awful teams and lagging fan support, he did an in-house investigation regarding all the issues and concluded that Pel was the problem, not the fixer of problems.

And Pel's last recruiting class was so overrated. You saw what MA and Bill Self got out of Mickelson, you saw it take 2 years to develop Madden into a fringe All SEC player but nothing special. BJ Young was a head-case like so many of Pel's recruits, not coachable, and where is he now? Abron was nothing to brag about either. Aside from those guys, MA inherited Nobles, Sanchez, Waithe, Wade, Scott, and Marshawn (who blew out his knee in 2nd game of year 1) ... that's 10 scholarship players (down to 9 after losing best player Powell, who was on-again, off-again with effort).

And just think, BEFORE Pel made things worse, the program was bad enough to send Dana A running back to the exciting metroplex of Omaha, Nebraska with the other flatlanders ... after less than 24 hours as HC. Yep, CMA walked into a dream scenario.

This, exactly, this program was in no way in good shape when CMA took over.  Why people keep bringing up the recruiting class that CMA inherited as being solid is beyond mind boggling.  I'm as fed up with the inconsistency as the next person, but to claim that the program was in good shape is utter nonsense.

[Kevin McPherson]

Rumor is that Dana left because of our APR mess, Pel fixed that and while he did have player issues, it was not with the players that he left for MA.  Lets not distort the facts here.  Marshawn Powell,  Rotnei Clarke , Glenn Bryant, Marvell Waithe, Michael Sanchez and Mardracus Wade were a solid, but not great foundation for him to build on and   B.J. Young, Rashad Madden, Hunter Mickelson and Devonta Abron is a class we were all excited about

I'm not distorting anything. Pel didn't fix anything, he was a disaster. Clarke threatened to transfer after every season, and did when CMA got here. So did Bryant, so the numbers were low when CMA arrived. Powell tried to quit on Pel numerous times -- twice during games, and twice had to be begged back between semesters. You're really going to try to sell me or anyone that Sanchez, Waithe, Wade, and Scott were a solid foundation to build on? Powell was the best returning player, but was lost for the year in game 2, and was always inconsistent with effort. Yeah, we were all excited about that incoming class, but REALITY was it was nowhere as good as advertised. Who's doing the distorting here?

[Kevin McPherson]

Pelphrey botched the roster turnover after season 1 setup by Heath by taking too many character risks.  It is what happens when you hire an inexperienced head coach in over his head who thinks he won't be given time to build a program correctly and can't recruit well.  Bad mix and mistake hire as we all know.

Underselling the disaster that Pel was ... you're actually making excuses for him ... damn near ALL of HIS players were some combo of suspended, transferred, were kicked off, tried to quit, or hated playing for him. And those teams were historically bad ... i.e. 2-14 in SEC play in year 2 which is by far the worst in modern Hogs' history, and 6-game losing skid to end season in year 3 was the worst such ending to a season in school history.

[Atlhogfan1]

I disagree the Pel class was overrated.  It was badly overhyped.  Oversold.  1 top 25 recruit(barely), 1 top 40-50, 1 top 75, 1 around 100 and 1 around 150.  This was "special" in the eyes of the state of Arkansas.  It would have maybe made up a good group to add to more recruits of high caliber.  But it wasn't program changing.  Never should have been looked upon that way.  Question is are we being oversold again?  At least this time, the players are spread out in multiple classes. 

From an individual player rating perspective, Madden was a top 40-50 recruit.  He ended up being a pretty good college player.  A complimentary player usually.  Certainly not a player who was going to carry a team. 

BJ top 25 or so recruit by some rankings ended up leading SEC freshmen in scoring.  Lost his mind his Soph season and bailed. 

Mickelson top 75 or so recruit.  Ended up with 72 blocks as a freshman.  Moses had 76 last season in 400 more minutes.  HM could have filled a limited role.  Need more from a top 75 recruit.  He made two bad decisions in his college choices.  Should have gone to a lesser program than KU but one where he could have fit.  Underachieved.

Abron's career derailed by injury and personal situation.  Around a top 150 recruit.  Was never expected to be more than a developmental role player.  Before his injury, he avg 7 pts and 6 reb in 21 min at TCU as a sophomore.  Probably was heading to being a 2yr solid contributor. 

Ross was around a top 100 recruit.  Didn't qualify.  Went to prep school and eventually became a good role player at TT including being an effective 3pt shooter.  Some discussion here hoping he could transfer here for his last season. 

[Pork Twain]

I'm not distorting anything. Pel didn't fix anything, he was a disaster. Clarke threatened to transfer after every season, and did when CMA got here. So did Bryant, so the numbers were low when CMA arrived. Powell tried to quit on Pel numerous times -- twice during games, and twice had to be begged back between semesters. You're really going to try to sell me or anyone that Sanchez, Waithe, Wade, and Scott were a solid foundation to build on? Powell was the best returning player, but was lost for the year in game 2, and was always inconsistent with effort. Yeah, we were all excited about that incoming class, but REALITY was it was nowhere as good as advertised. Who's doing the distorting here?

Ahh but you are.  As bad of a coach as Pel was, he could recruit a little and he fixed our APR issue.  He took over a mess from Heath and took too many character risks in the first two years.  When MA arrived, he did not have to worry about the APR and the roster was much better than it was when Pel arrived, still not amazing, but better.

[razorback1829]

Pel did absolutely nothing but tank the program. You're beyond delusional if you can't see that. The program was DEAD upon CMA's arrival. Got some players that he couldn't get rid of due to APR and had to ride 3 years of Wade, Scott, etc. we weren't going anywhere with those guys. The players didn't respect the coaches and many bailed before CMA got there. No practice facility.. come on man. You sound pretty silly

[Atlhogfan1]

Underselling the disaster that Pel was ... you're actually making excuses for him ... damn near ALL of HIS players were some combo of suspended, transferred, were kicked off, tried to quit, or hated playing for him. And those teams were historically bad ... i.e. 2-14 in SEC play in year 2 which is by far the worst in modern Hogs' history, and 6-game losing skid to end season in year 3 was the worst such ending to a season in school history.

I'm aware of what happened under Pelphrey.  Where did I make an excuse?  Saying he was a mistake hire and made poor decisions is not an excuse.  An excuse for example would have been to say it was because he was recruiting to Arkansas.  The one we have heard the past few years as to why this rebuild didn't go faster.  Not underselling what the Pel era included.  I'm not overselling what Mike had to fix as you are.  He inherited a rebuild certainly.  And has had his own issues with players as well.  As a better and more experienced coach than Pelphrey, he has managed his way through them. 

[Pork Twain]

I think some of you just started watching basketball and are just going off of win/loss records to form your opinion of where the hogs were vs where they are.

[Kevin McPherson]

I disagree the Pel class was overrated.  It was badly overhyped.  Oversold.  1 top 25 recruit(barely), 1 top 40-50, 1 top 75, 1 around 100 and 1 around 150.  This was "special" in the eyes of the state of Arkansas.  It would have maybe made up a good group to add to more recruits of high caliber.  But it wasn't program changing.  Never should have been looked upon that way.  Question is are we being oversold again?  At least this time, the players are spread out in multiple classes. 

From an individual player rating perspective, Madden was a top 40-50 recruit.  He ended up being a pretty good college player.  A complimentary player usually.  Certainly not a player who was going to carry a team. 

BJ top 25 or so recruit by some rankings ended up leading SEC freshmen in scoring.  Lost his mind his Soph season and bailed. 

Mickelson top 75 or so recruit.  Ended up with 72 blocks as a freshman.  Moses had 76 last season in 400 more minutes.  HM could have filled a limited role.  Need more from a top 75 recruit.  He made two bad decisions in his college choices.  Should have gone to a lesser program than KU but one where he could have fit.  Underachieved.

Abron's career derailed by injury and personal situation.  Around a top 150 recruit.  Was never expected to be more than a developmental role player.  Before his injury, he avg 7 pts and 6 reb in 21 min at TCU as a sophomore.  Probably was heading to being a 2yr solid contributor. 

Ross was around a top 100 recruit.  Didn't qualify.  Went to prep school and eventually became a good role player at TT including being an effective 3pt shooter.  Some discussion here hoping he could transfer here for his last season.

Thanks for the in-depth look at a class that didn't pan out. That was my point. And when the ACTUAL player contributions fell way short of EXPECTED contributions based on recruiting rankings, it means the class was OVERRATED. No need to shy away from OVERRATED in favor of OVERHYPED ... same thing IMO. Kudos to CMA and Madden for sticking with it to help Madden develop into a solid college player. Everybody else flopped for various reasons, or in the case of Ross could not get qualified at Arkansas.

[Razorbackers]

Because the program was in awful shape when CMA came home -- he inherited worst road record in SEC, player suspensions, departures, low roster numbers, lack of talent, toxic in-house culture, academic / APR problems, etc. It was so bad that he deserved a 2-year pass ... Jeff Long said he deserved 3-year pass, but I disagree with that because I think '13-14 should have been an NCAAT team, but went to the NIT instead.

However, that was the first postseason tourney for the Hogs in 6 years. If the Hogs Dance this year, that means ...

* 2 NCAAT's in last 3 years (2nd-best in SEC to KY w/3 in 3)
* 3 NCAAT/NIT in 3 of last 4 years
* Likely maintain 2nd-best SEC record last 3 years
* Add to all that the 3 best consecutive recruiting classes under CMA (2016, 2017, and 2018) and it is CLEAR the program is far ahead where it was under Heath and Pelphrey ... AND it is obviously on a trajectory to being 2nd to KY, possibly better than KY in a year or two (disclaimer: not better in terms of recruiting and nat'l hype, but in terms of battling for SEC titles ... TAMU tied KY for SEC title last year, and FLA tied right now with KY ... Hogs not far off).

Hogs aren't there yet, so not counting chickens before they hatch, but it's close.

The 1 in 5 argument was never really valid, IMO, because the program was in shambles. Look at Frank Martin (4 yrs at SCar), Bruce Pearl (3 yrs at Auburn), Ben Howland (2 yrs at MSU), Rick Barnes (2 yrs at TN), Avery Johnson (2 yrs at Bama) -- that's a lot of quality coaches, and barring unforeseen winning of the SECT, only 1 of them will Dance as an at-large (Martin and SCar).

Point is, those guys are looking at year 3 at best, maybe year 4 before they sniff the Dance. NOT unlike what CMA went through, something to consider when the 1 and 5 chatter gets cranked up.

This is a great post. It's why making the tournament is so huge for CMA this year. If he makes it, we have to keep him, because you can clearly show progress. 2 tournaments in 3 years, a first round pick, recruiting picking up, etc.

If he misses the tournament this year, then it's 1 tourney every 6 years and that's unacceptable. He signed 3 quality JUCO guys and returned a majority of his talent from the year before.

It's the same with Bielema. Had he won 1 of those last 2 games, then MMQB wouldn't still be in meltdown mode. But we didn't, and now the sky is falling. Despite the fact that most people had the Hogs as a 7-8 win team last year preseason. If CBB and the football team won 8 games this year, then you could say hey, 2 years in a row with 8 wins, 2 good recruiting classes, lots of guys getting shots in the NFL...things are looking up.

It's crucial that CMA close out this season with a tournament appearance...for his sake. Cause if we don't make it, he SHOULD be fired.

[HF#1]

The only thing this stat proves is that there's Kentucky and everyone else. Just like in Football, there is Bama and everyone else.

[The_Iceman]

I disagree the Pel class was overrated.  It was badly overhyped.  Oversold.  1 top 25 recruit(barely), 1 top 40-50, 1 top 75, 1 around 100 and 1 around 150.  This was "special" in the eyes of the state of Arkansas.  It would have maybe made up a good group to add to more recruits of high caliber.  But it wasn't program changing.  Never should have been looked upon that way.  Question is are we being oversold again?  At least this time, the players are spread out in multiple classes. 

From an individual player rating perspective, Madden was a top 40-50 recruit.  He ended up being a pretty good college player.  A complimentary player usually.  Certainly not a player who was going to carry a team. 

BJ top 25 or so recruit by some rankings ended up leading SEC freshmen in scoring.  Lost his mind his Soph season and bailed. 

Mickelson top 75 or so recruit.  Ended up with 72 blocks as a freshman.  Moses had 76 last season in 400 more minutes.  HM could have filled a limited role.  Need more from a top 75 recruit.  He made two bad decisions in his college choices.  Should have gone to a lesser program than KU but one where he could have fit.  Underachieved.

Abron's career derailed by injury and personal situation.  Around a top 150 recruit.  Was never expected to be more than a developmental role player.  Before his injury, he avg 7 pts and 6 reb in 21 min at TCU as a sophomore.  Probably was heading to being a 2yr solid contributor. 

Ross was around a top 100 recruit.  Didn't qualify.  Went to prep school and eventually became a good role player at TT including being an effective 3pt shooter.  Some discussion here hoping he could transfer here for his last season.

It was a great class if all 5 would have made it and would have been added to a roster with Rotnei, Powell, Nobles, Wade, and Scott. It just didn't go that way, and so like you said, it was overhyped in terms of what they could accomplish.

[ShadowHawg]

I think some of you just started watching basketball and are just going off of win/loss records to form your opinion of where the hogs were vs where they are.

So where were they? Were the Hogs last in SEC basketball in facilities? Were the Hogs a program with the 3rd worst conference record in the SEC over the previous decade? Were the Hogs a program with a depleted roster due to atrocious retention because of disciplinary and academic issues with a loss of a scholarship thrown in? Were the Hogs a program with only 1 tournament win in the previous decade? Were the Hogs the program that Dana Altman fled after actually getting here and seeing the extent of damage the program had suffered under Heath before Pel took its' reputation even lower, though he did get academics back on track? Were the Hogs a program with dwindling attendance issues? Were the Hogs the program that had resorted to signing players who were academic risks (we all know about Ross, but ever wondered why Young didn't have as many offers as Madden did)?

And where are the Hogs now?

[Atlhogfan1]

Thanks for the in-depth look at a class that didn't pan out. That was my point. And when the ACTUAL player contributions fell way short of EXPECTED contributions based on recruiting rankings, it means the class was OVERRATED. No need to shy away from OVERRATED in favor of OVERHYPED ... same thing IMO. Kudos to CMA and Madden for sticking with it to help Madden develop into a solid college player. Everybody else flopped for various reasons, or in the case of Ross could not get qualified at Arkansas.

There is nothing really defensible about the Pelphrey era.  But Mike didn't have to keep that first recruiting class.  He and his staff were in this region of the country.  They could have, should have, been recruiting to Mizzou.  In fact, the move to Arkansas initiative went into full effect before his last season at Mizzou.  Even though Mike had set it up to where he had maybe only 1 spot for a recruit at Mizzou, a coaching staff should always be recruiting.  Yet they hadn't.  He could have let those Pel recruits go but he grabbed Scotty and took off after them immediately. 

The class was being touted as one which should have saved an undqualified and underperforming coach's job.  It was to be a program changer.  One that was going to elevate the program back to relevancy.  A class with 0 McD AA and two top 25-50 recruits.  It was dumb.

The rating part was just based on the math of where the class' numbers compared to the others.   

[Kevin McPherson]

The only thing this stat proves is that there's Kentucky and everyone else. Just like in Football, there is Bama and everyone else.

The stat also proves that if CMA is not getting the job done at Arkansas, then neither are 12 other SEC coaches ... obviously, the Hogs can and should strive to be at least 2nd in the SEC behind Cal's NBADL team, and if they make the Dance this year, there are MEANINGFUL MEASURABLES to suggest the Hogs are the 2nd-best program over the past 3 years. If league record, road record, and NCAATs are considered "cherry-picking data" for where the program is heading, then what data should we use?

[Pork Twain]

This is a great post. It's why making the tournament is so huge for CMA this year. If he makes it, we have to keep him, because you can clearly show progress. 2 tournaments in 3 years, a first round pick, recruiting picking up, etc.

If he misses the tournament this year, then it's 1 tourney every 6 years and that's unacceptable. He signed 3 quality JUCO guys and returned a majority of his talent from the year before.

It's crucial that CMA close out this season with a tournament appearance...for his sake. Cause if we don't make it, he SHOULD be fired.

Wouldn't it either be 2 tournament appearances in 6 years or 1 tournament appearance in 6 years?

[Atlhogfan1]

So where were they? Were the Hogs last in SEC basketball in facilities? Were the Hogs a program with the 3rd worst conference record in the SEC over the previous decade? Were the Hogs a program with a depleted roster due to atrocious retention because of disciplinary and academic issues with a loss of a scholarship thrown in? Were the Hogs a program with only 1 tournament win in the previous decade? Were the Hogs the program that Dana Altman fled after actually getting here and seeing the extent of damage the program had suffered under Heath before Pel took its' reputation even lower, though he did get academics back on track? Were the Hogs a program with dwindling attendance issues? Were the Hogs the program that had resorted to signing players who were academic risks (we all know about Ross, but ever wondered why Young didn't have as many offers as Madden did)?

And where are the Hogs now?

Last in getting the practice facility(I think).  We discussed it at the time.  We invested in every sport you could think of but basketball for a long time.  Took the program for granted.  BWA was fanastic when opened but others would catch up with more modern facilities and ones built for the current era in terms of size and configuration.  Now I will say, the donors who give do have a say where the money goes usually.  Someone wants to donate to build a track or tennis stadium with suites, you put the money towards those projects. 

[Kevin McPherson]

So where were they? Were the Hogs last in SEC basketball in facilities? Were the Hogs a program with the 3rd worst conference record in the SEC over the previous decade? Were the Hogs a program with a depleted roster due to atrocious retention because of disciplinary and academic issues with a loss of a scholarship thrown in? Were the Hogs a program with only 1 tournament win in the previous decade? Were the Hogs the program that Dana Altman fled after actually getting here and seeing the extent of damage the program had suffered under Heath before Pel took its' reputation even lower, though he did get academics back on track? Were the Hogs a program with dwindling attendance issues? Were the Hogs the program that had resorted to signing players who were academic risks (we all know about Ross, but ever wondered why Young didn't have as many offers as Madden did)?

And where are the Hogs now?

YEP!

[Razorbackers]

Wouldn't it either be 2 tournament appearances in 6 years or 1 tournament appearance in 6 years?

No, that was the whole point of my post.

When something is trending upward, it's different that if something got stagnant.

1 tournament in 6 years vs 2 tournaments in 3 years.

Major difference in optics. That was the point of my post.

[Pork Twain]

Last in getting the practice facility(I think).  We discussed it at the time.  We invested in every sport you could think of but basketball for a long time.  Took the program for granted.  BWA was fanastic when opened but others would catch up with more modern facilities and ones built for the current era in terms of size and configuration.  Now I will say, the donors who give do have a say where the money goes usually.  Someone wants to donate to build a track or tennis stadium with suites, you put the money towards those projects. 

The lack of give a crap directed at the basketball program over the years is hard to watch, especially when you are able to remember the glory days.

[HF#1]

The stat also proves that if CMA is not getting the job done at Arkansas, then neither are 12 other SEC coaches ... obviously, the Hogs can and should strive to be at least 2nd in the SEC behind Cal's NBADL team, and if they make the Dance this year, there are MEANINGFUL MEASURABLES to suggest the Hogs are the 2nd-best program over the past 3 years. If league record, road record, and NCAATs are considered "cherry-picking data" for where the program is heading, then what data should we use?

We certainly haven't made any hay in a league that has been horrendous for the last 10 years.

[Pork Twain]

No, that was the whole point of my post.

When something is trending upward, it's different that if something got stagnant.

1 tournament in 6 years vs 2 tournaments in 3 years.

Major difference in optics. That was the point of my post.

Ehh...  I have a hard time ignoring half of a coach's tenure to establish an upward trend.  I see Nolan's first six years as an upward trend.  I see MA's first six years as mixed bag of nuts.

1985–86 Arkansas 12–16 4–12 7th 
+1986–87 Arkansas 19–14 8–8 5th NIT Second Round
+1987–88 Arkansas 21–9 11–5 T–2nd NCAA First Round
+1988–89 Arkansas 25–7 13–3 1st NCAA Second Round
+1989–90 Arkansas 30–5 14–2 1st NCAA Final Four
+1990–91 Arkansas 34–4 15–1 1st NCAA Elite Eight

2011–12 Arkansas 18–14 6–10 9th 
+2012–13 Arkansas 19–13 10–8 7th 
+2013–14 Arkansas 22–12 10–8 5th NIT Second Round
+2014–15 Arkansas 27–9 13–5 2nd NCAA Second Round
-2015–16 Arkansas 16–16 9–9 T–8th 
+2016–17 Arkansas 19–7 8–5  This a + but likely still lower than year 3, hence still not an overall upward trend

[ShadowHawg]

Ehh...  I have a hard time ignoring half of a coach's tenure to establish an upward trend.  I see Nolan's first six years as an upward trend.  I see MA's first six years as mixed bag of nuts.

1985–86 Arkansas 12–16 4–12 7th 
1986–87 Arkansas 19–14 8–8 5th NIT Second Round
1987–88 Arkansas 21–9 11–5 T–2nd NCAA First Round
1988–89 Arkansas 25–7 13–3 1st NCAA Second Round
1989–90 Arkansas 30–5 14–2 1st NCAA Final Four
1990–91 Arkansas 34–4 15–1 1st NCAA Elite Eight

2011–12 Arkansas 18–14 6–10 9th 
2012–13 Arkansas 19–13 10–8 7th 
2013–14 Arkansas 22–12 10–8 5th NIT Second Round
2014–15 Arkansas 27–9 13–5 2nd NCAA Second Round
2015–16 Arkansas 16–16 9–9 T–8th 
2016–17 Arkansas 19–7 8–5

They didn't start in the same spot. Nolan took over a program that won a game in the tournament just the season before. Nolan took over a program while not suited to play his style still had 2 future NBA players on the roster. Nolan took over a program that packed the house every night and had a huge waiting list for season tickets. Nolan took over a program that was considered the best program in its conference. Nolan took over a program that had zero competition for the top players in its region which made Memphis, Tulsa, Dallas Metro, fertile grounds. etc

[20gauge]

I think everyone wrote off the first two seasons. Is it not on the coach to keep players on campus and develop them. MA may not have been the one recruiting that 2011 class but he decided to try and get them to campus. He did that except for Ross. I do think a lot of us saw the ranking of that class and thought with that class that MA would be able to do something with it. However only Madden stuck it out and sometimes it takes a couple years for a player to develop. Some of the ones we have coming in may do the same

But after two years this was fully on MA good wins, lucky wins, losses, bad losses, transfers and recruiting. Its his job, he was hired to clean up the mess. I don't care about Pel and Heath they aren't in charge anymore.

MA needs to get it done and that's it. It shouldn't take another 2 to 3 years for us to reach the tourney again. We took a big step last night and we don't need to screw it up.

I would think most on here would agree that the goal for this team each year is to at least challenge for an SEC title and to be a threat to win some games in the tourney

[20gauge]

They didn't start in the same spot. Nolan took over a program that won a game in the tournament just the season before. Nolan took over a program while not suited to play his style still had 2 future NBA players on the roster. Nolan took over a program that packed the house every night and had a huge waiting list for season tickets. Nolan took over a program that was considered the best program in its conference. Nolan took over a program that had zero competition for the top players in its region which made Memphis, Tulsa, Dallas Metro, fertile grounds. etc

And MA was hired to return us to that or at least close to it.

[Pork Twain]

They didn't start in the same spot. Nolan took over a program that won a game in the tournament just the season before. Nolan took over a program while not suited to play his style still had 2 future NBA players on the roster. Nolan took over a program that packed the house every night and had a huge waiting list for season tickets. Nolan took over a program that was considered the best program in its conference. Nolan took over a program that had zero competition for the top players in its region which made Memphis, Tulsa, Dallas Metro, fertile grounds. etc

Never said they did, I was just describing what I would consider an upward trend vs a mixed bag, which is exactly what I said.  Nice job jumping in though...and not comprehending what I was discussing with another poster.

[yocdaddy]

Also, I would point out that the schedules are not balanced.  Thus, the overall SEC record over those 3 years is not based on equitable schedules.  This season alone we have played LSU, Mizzou, and Vanderbilt twice.  Those three teams are at the bottom of the league.  I haven't looked at the schedule over the past three years, but I'd say this year's is mighty generous.

[Pig in the Pokey]

Does this surprise you?

Despite the maddening inconsistency, the below rankings are a feather in the cap for the program.

Best SEC records last 3 seasons (reg season + SECT):

1. KY 48-7
2. Hogs 32-21
3. A&M 31-21
4. FL 30-22
5. GA 30-24
6. OM 28-23
7. USC 29-24

We'll see if the gap between No. 1 and No. 2 can be significantly narrowed in the next three years!

Stats via Kevin McPherson @ARHoopScoop

And mix that with the recruiting classes he has already lined up unlike anything we have seen around here (to have so many quality guys stacked up like that so early in the process). It's why Mike wouldn't have been fired if we didnt make the NCAA tourney this year. But, we will, so Mike haters- GET WITH THE PROGRAM. That crusade is ova for the foreseeable future!!! WPS :razorback: :razorback: :razorback: :razorback:

[Pig in the Pokey]

What about the last six years?  Why just choose the last 3?  Data is dangerous when it is cherry picked.

why tf would 4-6 years ago have any bearing AT ALL on now? The last 3 years are "Mike's players". He can't be held responsible for the stiffs that came before him. But he did better than the previous two coaches did even in those craptastic seasons.

[LRHawg]

I'm sure it's been pointed out, but that means jack crap if you only go to the tournament once in those years.

[Pig in the Pokey]

Didn't I just see in another thread where you were giving CBB a mulligan for having to rebuild the football team? Why couldn't that apply here as well?

he white tho

[Pig in the Pokey]

Overselling.  Awful would be what Crean inherited at IU.  Or Martin at SC where they had lost 24 of their last 27 SEC games under Horn.  The APR at Arkansas was already improving.  Mike just couldn't overhaul the roster early enough to suit his needs.  This is where it was a hindrance although his recruiting especially of guards and combo forwards was so poor not sure what difference it would have made.  Long could have given Anderson a 6-7 year pass.  Wouldn't have made any difference in the job security or evaluation. 

IMO, our program wasn't in shambles.  You are setting the bar extremely low comparing Mike to Heath and Pelphrey.  As my sig line states from an "outside" media member, he wasn't hired to do what he did at UAB or Mizzou.  And I'll add to that, he wasn't hired to just be better than Heath or Pelphrey.  You are also setting it low comparing us to those other programs you listed. 

You can stop selling so hard.  Many of your cherry picked numbers can be put into context.  They have in some way.  We've had these discussions about your selling points repeatedly.  It isn't going to change minds.  Just continues the arguing.

and the program was in great shape when Nolan took over, too, and they were crap that first year and a half. New system, bruh. Mike is right were Nolan was at this point in his career at Arkansas. The trajectory is very similar, especially because last year we could have had Qualls, Jacory(who is POtY in his conference this season, btw) and Portis and if they had returned we were a sure fire high seed in the dance. That team didn't have a losing record without them and they were very good the year before. Hell, that could have been a Final Four team right there. You Mike Haters need to grow up and get with the program. Dude will be here for AT LEAST four more years. Give up on that crusade. #hangupthehood