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Are we currently still 30 program?

Started by Hogwild, December 12, 2017, 08:55:54 am

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Busta_Nutt

Quote from: Uncommon on December 12, 2017, 12:15:36 pm
NOPE. Was right the first time.

Do you honestly think Arkansas is a top 20 football program?

hogsanity

Quote from: Uncommon on December 12, 2017, 12:13:19 pm

The media has just driven us down because we're from a small southern state to make us think we don't have the ability to produce a consistent winner.


Oh man, really? The media is out to get us line?

When have we produced a CONSISTENT WINNER? And 2 or 3 years does not make a consistent winner. What is a consistent winner anyway? Simply more wins than loses?  <ore conf wins than loses? Bowl wins? Wins against top 25 teams?

People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE

 

IronHog

Quote from: hogsanity on December 12, 2017, 12:38:59 pm
Oh man, really? The media is out to get us line?

When have we produced a CONSISTENT WINNER? And 2 or 3 years does not make a consistent winner. What is a consistent winner anyway? Simply more wins than loses?  <ore conf wins than loses? Bowl wins? Wins against top 25 teams?




Lots of teams on that list aren't doing that either


Start with Texas
Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another.

bphi11ips

Quote from: hogsanity on December 12, 2017, 11:05:28 am
I did not say I agreed with the list, but I agree Arkansas is not a top 30 program. Have not won a conf title in almost 30 years, and the last one was in a dying swc. Have only played for the sec title 3 times, and were blown out in tow of those 3 seccg appearances. Played in one bcs bowl ( 50 other fbs programs played in at least one fbs bowl ). And are coming off the worst 5 year stretch in the program in my lifetime ( I am 47 ).

I also did not say it could not become a top 25 or top 20 program, but I have serious doubts it can be maintained at that level.

You can try to act like the recruiting problems are not real, and I suspect you do so because you know they are very real and are not going to be overcome in the near future, but your denial of those things does not mean they do not exist.

The Gospel according to hogsanity. 

Define "recruiting problems".  I suspect you define it relative to SEC schools.  Fair enough.  Alabama, Georgia, Florida, LSU, Auburn, and Tennessee have always recruited better than Arkansas.  They have a geographic advantage.  Do you think that is going to change?  Those schools are also in the HC's authoritative Top 30.  Ranking Tennessee outside the Top 20 shows what a bunch of buffoons the voters are. 

South Carolina, Ole Miss, Mississippi State and A&M all have what many would say are geographic advantages over Arkansas, yet the records in the "modern era" (which you, yourself, have defined here many times as the post-integration period, which most agree is 1970 to present) are as follows:

vs. A&M          16-15
vs. Ole Miss   23-14-1
vs. MSU          16-8-1
vs. SC              13-10

If Tennessee has a geographic advantage, so does Vanderbilt.  Arkansas' s record vs. Vandy is 7-2. 

That leaves two SEC schools with geographic disadvantages to Arkansas - Kentucky and Missouri.  Both are routinely ranked behind Arkansas in recruiting rankings, yet Missouri is 4-2 against Arkansas in the "modern era", and Kentucky is 4-3.

The A&M series is close only because the Aggies have won 5 straight.  Did College Station move closer to any major metropolitan areas in the last 5 years?  Is it the SEC Effect?  (If the "Sec Effect" was such a big deal, why hasn't helped Arkansas?)  Or is it maybe that Arkansas has had its worst 5-year stretch in 60 years since 2013?

You guys that insist Arkansas can't recruit with the lower 8 teams in the SEC have short memories.  Those who think we can't beat the top 6 are ignoring that we have done it before.  We are 11-15-1 vs. Auburn and have lost 4 of the last 5.  We are 10-16 vs. LSU since 1970,  and 8-17 vs. Alabama after losing 10 in a row (Saban Effect).  We have been horrible against Florida, Georgia and Tennessee.  Our record against those three in the "modern era" is 10-31.

So here's the deal - Arkansas doesn't have a "recruiting problem" that it has never had before.  Don't buy that load of nonsense.  Arkansas has gotten away from its natural recruiting territory in the last ten years or so because it hired coaches who didn't understand it.  They didn't respect the athletes in the footprint.  They thought we'd buy that the further the recruit traveled the better they must be.

BTW - if your answer to the Top 30 question depends on recruiting rankings, Arkansas's average ranking since 2002, the year Rivals' rankings begin on its cutrent website, is 26.  The average for the last 5 years is 27.
Life is too short for grudges and feuds.

steveaustin69

Quote from: Uncommon on December 12, 2017, 11:25:50 am
It's not my opinion, it's a fact. Our program has a value in the Top 20. We should be there. Petrino proved it. Just because there was incompetence here for the last two seasons doesn't mean our program is less valuable. So that means Tennessee and Texas have lower values as well then with their mediocrity the last 5 seasons too. Well that's pure BS.

No one is talking about value.  Since when does selling a bunch of t shirts at Wal-Mart equal wins and championships? UT and Texas have also been nationally competitive MUCH more than we have over the past two decades. 

Does Arkansas have what is needed to be a top 20 program with the right leadership? Absolutely.  Is Arkansas currently a top 20 program? Not even close. To think otherwise is delusional.

RME

Quote from: mizzouman on December 12, 2017, 12:27:19 pm
The criteria is crap.  What matters is wins, losses and championships.  Everything else is junk.

So Toledo is top 30? 72-30 since 2010, 3 bowl wins with 1 to play this year.

They win a lot of games and win bowl games. Are they top 30?

RME

Quote from: IronHog on December 12, 2017, 11:57:25 am

Getting your teeth kicked in by LSU every Thanksgiving was obviously not a criteria



They have Texas #3.

While that is true historically currently Texas is playing zero relevant football and hasn't for some time.

If you legitimately can't comprehend that the entire body of their criteria is more than wins and losses, I can't help you.

If you want to create your own set of criteria (wins and losses in your case) and apply a scale to it, just like the writers at the Chronicle did, go ahead. No one is stopping you.

steveaustin69

Quote from: hogsanity on December 12, 2017, 11:34:23 am
VT in the 90's was the Boise of the 2000's. A team not in one of the main conferences, a cinderella story that tv could use to push weeknight or late Sat night games. Both in leagues with maybe one other good team, at most.

Are you saying the Big East was not a main conference?

NaturalStateReb

Quote from: steveaustin69 on December 12, 2017, 10:29:17 am
Don't tell me I have to educate Hogville on how Virginia Tech was a national power for well over a decade again

The open question is whether they can be a power under anyone not named "Beamer."  It looks like Fuentes is getting it done, but I still think there's a place for them near the bottom of this list.  They're probably the #4 program in the ACC.
"It's a trap!"--Houston Nutt and Admiral Ackbar, although Ackbar never called that play or ate that frito pie.

hogsanity

Quote from: steveaustin69 on December 12, 2017, 12:50:47 pm
Are you saying the Big East was not a main conference?

Yes I am. In 1999, for example, only 3 teams had a winning record in conference play and only 4 had season winning records. That was a 2 team league at that time, VT and Miami.

am       W       L                   W       L   
No. 2 Virginia Tech $       7   –   0                   11   –   1   
No. 15 Miami (FL)       6   –   1                   9   –   4   
Boston College       4   –   3                   8   –   4   
Syracuse       3   –   4                   7   –   5   
West Virginia       3   –   4                   4   –   7   
Pittsburgh       2   –   5                   5   –   6   
Temple       2   –   5                   2   –   9   
Rutgers       1   –   6                   1   –   10   
$ – BCS representative as conference champion
Rankings from AP Poll
People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE

IronHog

Quote from: RyanMallettsEgo on December 12, 2017, 12:49:00 pm
If you legitimately can't comprehend that the entire body of their criteria is more than wins and losses, I can't help you.

If you want to create your own set of criteria (wins and losses in your case) and apply a scale to it, just like the writers at the Chronicle did, go ahead. No one is stopping you.


I understand that but it's mostly subjective BS. 


Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another.

NaturalStateReb

Quote from: steveaustin69 on December 12, 2017, 12:47:42 pm
No one is talking about value.  Since when does selling a bunch of t shirts at Wal-Mart equal wins and championships? UT and Texas have also been nationally competitive MUCH more than we have over the past two decades. 

Does Arkansas have what is needed to be a top 20 program with the right leadership? Absolutely.  Is Arkansas currently a top 20 program? Not even close. To think otherwise is delusional.

Unfortunately, this is probably true.  The potential is there, but is currently unrealized.
"It's a trap!"--Houston Nutt and Admiral Ackbar, although Ackbar never called that play or ate that frito pie.

NaturalStateReb

Quote from: hogsanity on December 12, 2017, 01:00:43 pm
Yes I am. In 1999, for example, only 3 teams had a winning record in conference play and only 4 had season winning records. That was a 2 team league at that time, VT and Miami.

am       W       L                   W       L   
No. 2 Virginia Tech $       7   –   0                   11   –   1   
No. 15 Miami (FL)       6   –   1                   9   –   4   
Boston College       4   –   3                   8   –   4   
Syracuse       3   –   4                   7   –   5   
West Virginia       3   –   4                   4   –   7   
Pittsburgh       2   –   5                   5   –   6   
Temple       2   –   5                   2   –   9   
Rutgers       1   –   6                   1   –   10   
$ – BCS representative as conference champion
Rankings from AP Poll

In the Big East's defense, although it wasn't exactly known as football powerhouse, it's hard to argue that VT, Miami, West Virginia, and Pitt haven't all had some pretty strong teams over the years.  It was a BCS-automatic qualifier league, back when we still had the BCS.
"It's a trap!"--Houston Nutt and Admiral Ackbar, although Ackbar never called that play or ate that frito pie.

 

IronHog

I will say top 20 program should have a real stadium on campus and host all its home games there......

2017 and Arkansas can't do it
Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another.

hogsanity

Quote from: NaturalStateReb on December 12, 2017, 01:04:04 pm
In the Big East's defense, although it wasn't exactly known as football powerhouse, it's hard to argue that VT, Miami, West Virginia, and Pitt haven't all had some pretty strong teams over the years.  It was a BCS-automatic qualifier league, back when we still had the BCS.

and it was the joke of the bcs era, sending such powers as Uconn at 8-4 and Pitt at 8-3 to bcs games as their league champ.
People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE

RME

Quote from: hogsanity on December 12, 2017, 01:00:43 pm
Yes I am. In 1999, for example, only 3 teams had a winning record in conference play and only 4 had season winning records. That was a 2 team league at that time, VT and Miami.

am       W       L                   W       L   
No. 2 Virginia Tech $       7   –   0                   11   –   1   
No. 15 Miami (FL)       6   –   1                   9   –   4   
Boston College       4   –   3                   8   –   4   
Syracuse       3   –   4                   7   –   5   
West Virginia       3   –   4                   4   –   7   
Pittsburgh       2   –   5                   5   –   6   
Temple       2   –   5                   2   –   9   
Rutgers       1   –   6                   1   –   10   
$ – BCS representative as conference champion
Rankings from AP Poll

From 1995-2011, Virginia Tech went 168-51. 13 10+ win seasons. 13 bowl appearances. 7 bowl wins. 8 BCS bowl appearances. 2 BCS bowl wins. 1 national championship appearance.

As NatReb said, their conference was still strong enough to be a BCS qualifier.

During that time, Virginia Tech was a national power.

If Arkansas went 168-51 with 13 10+ win seasons, 13 bowl appearances. 7 bowl wins. 8 playoff appearances. 2 playoff wins, and 1 national championship appearance in a 17-year span, would you not consider us a "national power" during that span?

"Wuh wuh uh uh of course, because we're in the SEC by Gawd!" Good for us. That doesn't take away from what VT did during that time frame.

steveaustin69

Quote from: hogsanity on December 12, 2017, 01:00:43 pm
Yes I am. In 1999, for example, only 3 teams had a winning record in conference play and only 4 had season winning records. That was a 2 team league at that time, VT and Miami.

am       W       L                   W       L   
No. 2 Virginia Tech $       7   –   0                   11   –   1   
No. 15 Miami (FL)       6   –   1                   9   –   4   
Boston College       4   –   3                   8   –   4   
Syracuse       3   –   4                   7   –   5   
West Virginia       3   –   4                   4   –   7   
Pittsburgh       2   –   5                   5   –   6   
Temple       2   –   5                   2   –   9   
Rutgers       1   –   6                   1   –   10   
$ – BCS representative as conference champion
Rankings from AP Poll

You conveniently picked one of the worst years for the conference as a whole as your example.  I'm not arguing that it was the best conference by any means, but it received an automatic BCS bid for a reason: VT and Miami were powerhouses and BC, WV and another random team were top 25 competitive more years than not.

Additionally, VT continued its run of success when it moved to the ACC winning four conference championships in 6 years.  Was the ACC also not a main conference?


RME

Quote from: hogsanity on December 12, 2017, 01:07:27 pm
and it was the joke of the bcs era, sending such powers as Uconn at 8-4 and Pitt at 8-3 to bcs games as their league champ.

Did UConn and Pitt sustain the levels of success during that span that VT did? You're changing the argument completely.

code red

"If what you did yesterday seems big, you haven't done anything today."  Dr. Lou

hogsanity

Quote from: steveaustin69 on December 12, 2017, 01:15:03 pm
You conveniently picked one of the worst years for the conference as a whole as your example.  I'm not arguing that it was the best conference by any means, but it received an automatic BCS bid for a reason: VT and Miami were powerhouses and BC, WV and another random team were top 25 competitive more years than not.

Additionally, VT continued its run of success when it moved to the ACC winning four conference championships in 6 years.  Was the ACC also not a main conference?



I picked VT's best season, had no idea how the league stacked up against other years in the league. But hmm, Vt's best season just so happened to be when the bigeast had its worst as a league?

VT was good. i liked watching them because they played great D and great special teams. They may have been just as good in another league, but overall the big east was a 2 team league most years.
People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE

RME

Quote from: hogsanity on December 12, 2017, 01:18:18 pm
I picked VT's best season, had no idea how the league stacked up against other years in the league. But hmm, Vt's best season just so happened to be when the bigeast had its worst as a league?

VT was good. i liked watching them because they played great D and great special teams. They may have been just as good in another league, but overall the big east was a 2 team league most years.

Arkansas' best seasons have been when the West was "down."

Therefore, if Arkansas wins the SEC but it's also the SEC's worst year as a league, it means nothing.

Gotcha.

steveaustin69

Quote from: hogsanity on December 12, 2017, 01:18:18 pm
I picked VT's best season, had no idea how the league stacked up against other years in the league. But hmm, Vt's best season just so happened to be when the bigeast had its worst as a league?

VT was good. i liked watching them because they played great D and great special teams. They may have been just as good in another league, but overall the big east was a 2 team league most years.

Conveniently don't respond to my ACC question. Mallet just buried you with some facts up there.  You gonna respond to that?

hogsanity

Quote from: steveaustin69 on December 12, 2017, 01:15:03 pm
You conveniently picked one of the worst years for the conference as a whole as your example.  I'm not arguing that it was the best conference by any means, but it received an automatic BCS bid for a reason: VT and Miami were powerhouses and BC, WV and another random team were top 25 competitive more years than not.

Additionally, VT continued its run of success when it moved to the ACC winning four conference championships in 6 years.  Was the ACC also not a main conference?



Sorry, did not know we were discussing the ACC since we were discussing the big east. The ACC is a better league, and it is no coincidence that VT has not dominated it like they did the bigeast.

Quote from: RyanMallettsEgo on December 12, 2017, 01:19:47 pm
Arkansas' best seasons have been when the West was "down."

Therefore, if Arkansas wins the SEC but it's also the SEC's worst year as a league, it means nothing.

Gotcha.

Many here at HV say just that. They used that argument to downplay HDN's success as HC.
People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE

RME

Quote from: hogsanity on December 12, 2017, 01:23:10 pm
Many here at HV say just that. They used that argument to downplay HDN's success as HC.

Lol. You're a master at deflection and the spin zone.

 

steveaustin69

Quote from: hogsanity on December 12, 2017, 01:23:10 pm
Sorry, did not know we were discussing the ACC since we were discussing the big east. The ACC is a better league, and it is no coincidence that VT has not dominated it like they did the bigeast.

Many here at HV say just that. They used that argument to downplay HDN's success as HC.

Sometimes it's better to just admit you are wrong.

steveaustin69


ChicoHog

Quote from: DukeOfPork on December 12, 2017, 09:04:15 am
I can't really argue with that list.  Nebraska and UCLA are the only schools that you could even debate whether we should be ahead of them.

Recruiting, demographics, and lack of a winning tradition in the modern era are our main shortcomings. 
Pretty much spot on.  The "others listed" though are kind of strange.  Boise st?  BYU?  Louisville?  I totally disagree with all of those, especially Boise.  No group of five team should be on that list.  I would put Va Tech and Tenner in there and maybe Washington but not the other 3.  I might drop A&M and Miami down a little bit and raise Penn st and Georgia.  UGA should definitely be ahead of A&M IMO. 

195bc

Quote from: Uncommon on December 12, 2017, 12:13:19 pm
How am I a "many fan"? I'm my own person. I wanted Long fired only because he had us in cuffs over Bielema's buyout and giving a more than generous contract extension for a mediocre 6-6 season when we should've won more games than that. Long was the best business AD we might ever had. But he was poor with coaching contracts.

We're absolutely a Top 20 worthy program. The media has just driven us down because we're from a small southern state to make us think we don't have the ability to produce a consistent winner. Again, does Texas's last 5 or 6 years make them less of a valuable program?

You're argument doesn't hold water. And no, the media doesn't beat down Arkansas. All the money in the world doesn't make a great program. One coach (Petrino) doesn't "prove" you're a top whatever program. Art Briles made Baylor a top 20 program while he was there. Is anyone going to rank Baylor as a top 20 program? No. Texas A&M is the top revenue earner in the nation and look we're they're at.

Arkansas has finished the season ranked in the AP top 25 only FIVE times in the last 27 years (since 1990). Think about that for a second. Would you like to know some of the schools that have finished in the top 25 more times than Arkansas since 1990? A few may surprise you. This is not a comprehensive list.

Kansas St - 13 times
TCU - 11
Colorado - 10 (including a national championship)
Boise St - 10
Louisville - 10
Iowa - 10
West Virginia - 9
Ole Miss - 9
BYU - 9
Washington - 9 (including a Coaches Poll national championship)
Stanford - 9
Georgia Tech - 9 (including a Coaches Poll national championship)
Oklahoma St - 7
Missouri - 7
Virginia - 6
Mississippi St - 6
Arizona St - 6
Texas Tech - 6
Washington St - 6

And just for fun, here are a few schools that have finished in the AP top 25 the same number of times as Arkansas since 1990: N.C. State, Purdue, Cal, Oregon St.

I bet 99% of Razorbacks fans would rank Arkansas a better program than every one of those schools. But the performance on the field says otherwise, even if Arkansas has more money, has better facilities, and can pay coaches a higher salary.

hogsanity

Quote from: 195bc on December 12, 2017, 01:52:55 pm
You're argument doesn't hold water. And no, the media doesn't beat down Arkansas. All the money in the world doesn't make a great program. One coach (Petrino) doesn't "prove" you're a top whatever program. Art Briles made Baylor a top 20 program while he was there. Is anyone going to rank Baylor as a top 20 program? No. Texas A&M is the top revenue earner in the nation and look we're they're at.

Arkansas has finished the season ranked in the AP top 25 only FIVE times in the last 27 years (since 1990). Think about that for a second. Would you like to know some of the schools that have finished in the top 25 more times than Arkansas since 1990? A few may surprise you. This is not a comprehensive list.

Kansas St - 13 times
TCU - 11
Colorado - 10 (including a national championship)
Boise St - 10
Louisville - 10
Iowa - 10
West Virginia - 9
Ole Miss - 9
BYU - 9
Washington - 9 (including a national championship)
Stanford - 9
Oklahoma St - 7
Missouri - 7
Virginia - 6
Mississippi St - 6
Arizona St - 6
Texas Tech - 6
Washington St - 6

And just for fun, here are a few schools that have finished in the AP top 25 the same number of times as Arkansas since 1990: N.C. State, Purdue, Cal, Oregon St.

I bet 99% of Razorbacks fans would rank Arkansas a better program than every one of those schools. But the performance on the field says otherwise, even if Arkansas has more money, has better facilities, and can pay coaches a higher salary.



Stop, just stop. Facts like that confuse most posters here.
People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE

RME


ErieHog

Quote from: 247Hog on December 12, 2017, 11:18:17 am
I think Miami is crap on the list. This was the first year they have done anything in football in a LONG time. Even being in the top 25 this year, the fan turn out still sucked.

They have 5 national championships, 2 Heismans, the longest home winning streak in the history of college football, and played for at least two other NCs since our last sort-of-computer claim.

That's like saying  'Football doesn't matter when comparing football teams.'
No cause, ever, in the history of all mankind, has produced more cold-blooded tyrants, more slaughtered innocents, and more orphans than socialism with power. It surpassed, exponentially, all other systems of production in turning out the dead. The bodies are all around us. And here is the problem: No one talks about them. No one honors them. No one does penance for them. No one has committed suicide for having been an apologist for those who did this to them. No one pays for them. No one is hunted down to account for them. It is exactly what Solzhenitsyn foresaw in The Gulag Archipelago: "No, no one would have to answer. No one would be looked into." Until that happens, there is no "after socialism."

hogsanity

Quote from: 195bc on December 12, 2017, 01:52:55 pm
You're argument doesn't hold water. And no, the media doesn't beat down Arkansas. All the money in the world doesn't make a great program. One coach (Petrino) doesn't "prove" you're a top whatever program. Art Briles made Baylor a top 20 program while he was there. Is anyone going to rank Baylor as a top 20 program? No. Texas A&M is the top revenue earner in the nation and look we're they're at.

Arkansas has finished the season ranked in the AP top 25 only FIVE times in the last 27 years (since 1990). Think about that for a second. Would you like to know some of the schools that have finished in the top 25 more times than Arkansas since 1990? A few may surprise you. This is not a comprehensive list.

Kansas St - 13 times
TCU - 11
Colorado - 10 (including a national championship)
Boise St - 10
Louisville - 10
Iowa - 10
West Virginia - 9
Ole Miss - 9
BYU - 9
Washington - 9 (including a national championship)
Stanford - 9
Oklahoma St - 7
Missouri - 7
Virginia - 6
Mississippi St - 6
Arizona St - 6
Texas Tech - 6
Washington St - 6

And just for fun, here are a few schools that have finished in the AP top 25 the same number of times as Arkansas since 1990: N.C. State, Purdue, Cal, Oregon St.

I bet 99% of Razorbacks fans would rank Arkansas a better program than every one of those schools. But the performance on the field says otherwise, even if Arkansas has more money, has better facilities, and can pay coaches a higher salary.



Or this is where they claim being ranked in the top 25 does not make someone a top 25 program.
People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE

Atlhogfan1

Quote from: RyanMallettsEgo on December 12, 2017, 01:12:22 pm
From 1995-2011, Virginia Tech went 168-51. 13 10+ win seasons. 13 bowl appearances. 7 bowl wins. 8 BCS bowl appearances. 2 BCS bowl wins. 1 national championship appearance.

As NatReb said, their conference was still strong enough to be a BCS qualifier.

During that time, Virginia Tech was a national power.

If Arkansas went 168-51 with 13 10+ win seasons, 13 bowl appearances. 7 bowl wins. 8 playoff appearances. 2 playoff wins, and 1 national championship appearance in a 17-year span, would you not consider us a "national power" during that span?

"Wuh wuh uh uh of course, because we're in the SEC by Gawd!" Good for us. That doesn't take away from what VT did during that time frame.

You are being extremely generous in who you label a national power especially the most overrated program of the last 20+ years. 

Strength had little to do with the BCS inclusion.  Miami's membership did. 

Well there is a huge difference in the SEC and what was the Big East.  Are you saying there isn't?


Quote from: steveaustin69 on December 12, 2017, 01:15:03 pm
You conveniently picked one of the worst years for the conference as a whole as your example.  I'm not arguing that it was the best conference by any means, but it received an automatic BCS bid for a reason: VT and Miami were powerhouses and BC, WV and another random team were top 25 competitive more years than not.

Additionally, VT continued its run of success when it moved to the ACC winning four conference championships in 6 years.  Was the ACC also not a main conference?



He picked their NC game season.  The season which I'm guessing is causing some of you to think of them as a national power.

The current season is typical of VT football:
Beat WV at a neutral site.  Good win.
Beat Delaware
Beat ECU
Beat Old Dominion
Hype machine rolling!
Night game vs Clemson.  ABC rolls out the production.  You have Metallica playing in the stadium.  The camera cuts to outside where the Hokies are making their walk towards it.  Such drama.  Here comes that great powerhouse Virginia Tech! Final score 31-17 Clemson and it really wasn't that close.
Beat Boston College
Beat North Carolina
Beat Duke
Hype machine cranked up again.  They are playing unbeaten Miami at night in Hard Rock Stadium.  HUGE GAME.  Miami 28-10 in a game that wasn't that close.
Lost to GT
Beat Pitt
Beat Virginia

9-3!  Nice bowl game.  National power.

Va Tech 2018 schedule
at FSU
William and Mary
ECU
Old Dominion

Notre Dame coming into Blacksburg.  Hype machine rolling again.  ABC/ESPN crew sets up scenes straight out of a movie.  The 3-1 Hokies are national powers!
Quote from: MaconBacon on March 22, 2018, 10:30:04 amWe had a good run in the 90's and one NC and now the whole state still laments that we are a top seed program and have kids standing in line to come to good ole Arkansas.  We're just a flash in the pan boys. 

steveaustin69


bphi11ips

Quote from: ChicoHog on December 12, 2017, 01:27:14 pm
Pretty much spot on.  The "others listed" though are kind of strange.  Boise st?  BYU?  Louisville?  I totally disagree with all of those, especially Boise.  No group of five team should be on that list.  I would put Va Tech and Tenner in there and maybe Washington but not the other 3.  I might drop A&M and Miami down a little bit and raise Penn st and Georgia.  UGA should definitely be ahead of A&M IMO. 

The list is pretty bad.  The criteria are okay. Take it with a grain of salt for what it is.  Ten employees of the Houston Chronicle using subjective criteria to identify the Top Twenty college football programs.  Here's all you need to know:

Distance from Houston to College Station - 95 miles
Number of Top 10 finishes by Texas A&M since 2000 - 1
Number of Top 20 finishes since 2000 - 3 (including Top 10 finish)
No Frito Pie

Invalid poll
Life is too short for grudges and feuds.

Atlhogfan1

Quote from: 195bc on December 12, 2017, 01:52:55 pm
You're argument doesn't hold water. And no, the media doesn't beat down Arkansas. All the money in the world doesn't make a great program. One coach (Petrino) doesn't "prove" you're a top whatever program. Art Briles made Baylor a top 20 program while he was there. Is anyone going to rank Baylor as a top 20 program? No. Texas A&M is the top revenue earner in the nation and look we're they're at.

Arkansas has finished the season ranked in the AP top 25 only FIVE times in the last 27 years (since 1990). Think about that for a second. Would you like to know some of the schools that have finished in the top 25 more times than Arkansas since 1990? A few may surprise you. This is not a comprehensive list.

Kansas St - 13 times
TCU - 11
Colorado - 10 (including a national championship)
Boise St - 10
Louisville - 10
Iowa - 10
West Virginia - 9
Ole Miss - 9
BYU - 9
Washington - 9 (including a Coaches Poll national championship)
Stanford - 9
Georgia Tech - 9 (including a Coaches Poll national championship)
Oklahoma St - 7
Missouri - 7
Virginia - 6
Mississippi St - 6
Arizona St - 6
Texas Tech - 6
Washington St - 6

And just for fun, here are a few schools that have finished in the AP top 25 the same number of times as Arkansas since 1990: N.C. State, Purdue, Cal, Oregon St.

I bet 99% of Razorbacks fans would rank Arkansas a better program than every one of those schools. But the performance on the field says otherwise, even if Arkansas has more money, has better facilities, and can pay coaches a higher salary.

Rankings are often a product of schedule since W/L plays such a big role instead of who the W/L's have come against. 

We have not had a good few decades.  Most of the programs you listed would have fared no better and most worse had they been in our position.  K St for example has been a good program.  Physically inferior to even us let alone the teams we have to compete against. 

Good number for Ole Miss.  They have had a great bowl record which has helped their final rankings.  Also been placed on major sanctions twice since 1990. 
Quote from: MaconBacon on March 22, 2018, 10:30:04 amWe had a good run in the 90's and one NC and now the whole state still laments that we are a top seed program and have kids standing in line to come to good ole Arkansas.  We're just a flash in the pan boys. 

Atlhogfan1

Quote from: bphi11ips on December 12, 2017, 02:01:03 pm
The list is pretty bad.  The criteria are okay. Take it with a grain of salt for what it is.  Ten employees of the Houston Chronicle using subjective criteria to identify the Top Twenty college football programs.  Here's all you need to know:

Distance from Houston to College Station - 95 miles
Number of Top 10 finishes by Texas A&M since 2000 - 1
Number of Top 20 finishes since 2000 - 3 (including Top 10 finish)
No Frito Pie

Invalid poll

Smart to play to their audience a little. 
Quote from: MaconBacon on March 22, 2018, 10:30:04 amWe had a good run in the 90's and one NC and now the whole state still laments that we are a top seed program and have kids standing in line to come to good ole Arkansas.  We're just a flash in the pan boys. 

steveaustin69

Quote from: Atlhogfan1 on December 12, 2017, 01:58:26 pm
You are being extremely generous in who you label a national power especially the most overrated program of the last 20+ years. 

Strength had little to do with the BCS inclusion.  Miami's membership did. 

Well there is a huge difference in the SEC and what was the Big East.  Are you saying there isn't?


He picked their NC game season.  The season which I'm guessing is causing some of you to think of them as a national power.

The current season is typical of VT football:
Beat WV at a neutral site.  Good win.
Beat Delaware
Beat ECU
Beat Old Dominion
Hype machine rolling!
Night game vs Clemson.  ABC rolls out the production.  You have Metallica playing in the stadium.  The camera cuts to outside where the Hokies are making their walk towards it.  Such drama.  Here comes that great powerhouse Virginia Tech! Final score 31-17 Clemson and it really wasn't that close.
Beat Boston College
Beat North Carolina
Beat Duke
Hype machine cranked up again.  They are playing unbeaten Miami at night in Hard Rock Stadium.  HUGE GAME.  Miami 28-10 in a game that wasn't that close.
Lost to GT
Beat Pitt
Beat Virginia

9-3!  Nice bowl game.  National power.

Va Tech 2018 schedule
at FSU
William and Mary
ECU
Old Dominion

Notre Dame coming into Blacksburg.  Hype machine rolling again.  ABC/ESPN crew sets up scenes straight out of a movie.  The 3-1 Hokies are national powers!

Original post: "was a national power for well over a decade." If you can look at VT from '95-2011 and tell me that it was not a national power then there is nothing I can do for you.

Atlhogfan1

Quote from: steveaustin69 on December 12, 2017, 02:05:36 pm
Original post: "was a national power for well over a decade." If you can look at VT from '95-2011 and tell me that it was not a national power then there is nothing I can do for you.

Your definition of it is different from mine.  They would be far down a list of teams in that era.
USC
Miami
OU
Texas
Alabama
Florida
FSU
Nebraska during the early part.
Auburn much more than VT.
Oh St
Tennessee
Michigan
LSU

All of these programs achieved more and actually won big games on multiple occasions. 

Were they a top 20-25 program?  Sure.  Again, helped by schedules.  But they were consistent.  Not a national power.  To be a national power, you have to actually win big games and NC's.  Not make it in once due to schedule and get blown out with the best player you have ever had at qb. 
Quote from: MaconBacon on March 22, 2018, 10:30:04 amWe had a good run in the 90's and one NC and now the whole state still laments that we are a top seed program and have kids standing in line to come to good ole Arkansas.  We're just a flash in the pan boys. 

RME

Quote from: Atlhogfan1 on December 12, 2017, 02:13:49 pm
Your definition of it is different from mine.  They would be far down a list of teams in that era.
USC
Miami
OU
Texas
Alabama
Florida
FSU
Nebraska during the early part.
Auburn much more than VT.
Oh St
Tennessee
Michigan
LSU

All of these programs achieved more and actually won big games on multiple occasions. 

Were they a top 20-25 program?  Sure.  Again, helped by schedules.  But they were consistent.  Not a national power.  To be a national power, you have to actually win big games and NC's.  Not make it in once due to schedule and get blown out with the best player you have ever had at qb.

So again, if Arkansas ever achieves the success that mirrors VT's during that 17-season span, we can't consider them a national power during that time.

Sounds good.

Atlhogfan1

Quote from: RyanMallettsEgo on December 12, 2017, 02:15:27 pm
So again, if Arkansas ever achieves the success that mirrors VT's during that 17-season span, we can't consider them a national power during that time.

Sounds good.

I'm an Arkansas fan.  I might.  I'm a little biased with Arkansas.  If I were a VT fan, I would probably wet myself with excitement every time Fowler and Herbstreit said Lane Stadium. 

For us to be a national power, we would need to win at least 1 SEC Ch and/or make the 4 team playoffs at least a couple of times winning a game in it and consistently being in the race till the end most every other season.  I don't see it.  We can and should be one who is top 25-30 which is where VT is. 
Quote from: MaconBacon on March 22, 2018, 10:30:04 amWe had a good run in the 90's and one NC and now the whole state still laments that we are a top seed program and have kids standing in line to come to good ole Arkansas.  We're just a flash in the pan boys. 

hog of steele

What would be in a formula for deciding this?

I think recent success should be weighted because it matters more when you recruit.
So wins per season with declining value as you travel into the past.

Treat top 25 finishes the same way.

Recruiting strength, facilities, athletic budget are all part.

What else should be factored in?

steveaustin69

December 12, 2017, 02:32:24 pm #92 Last Edit: December 12, 2017, 02:48:22 pm by steveaustin69
Quote from: Atlhogfan1 on December 12, 2017, 02:13:49 pm
Your definition of it is different from mine.  They would be far down a list of teams in that era.
USC
Miami
OU
Texas
Alabama
Florida
FSU
Nebraska during the early part.
Auburn much more than VT.
Oh St
Tennessee
Michigan
LSU



Were they a top 20-25 program?  Sure.  Again, helped by schedules.  But they were consistent.  Not a national power.  To be a national power, you have to actually win big games and NC's.  Not make it in once due to schedule and get blown out with the best player you have ever had at qb.

Michigan: 5 conference titles in the same time span (3 shared)
Auburn: 2 conference titles in the same span
Nebraska: 3 conference titles in same span
VT: 7 conference titles in same span (before you try to chalk that up purely to the Big East: 1) let me remind you one of your teams up there (Miami) was in the Big East 2) 4 of those 7 were in the ACC)

Do you have to win a national title in any given decade to be considered a national power? If so, there are currently only 7 national powers. 

You listed thirteen teams; half of which were not nearly as consistently good for SEVENTEEN YEARS. Who are the next two to round out a top 15? I personally consider perennially top 15 and winning conference championships to be a national power.  If you do not consider a consistently top 15 program with 7 conference championships and 8 BCS bowl appearances in a 17 year period a national power, then, again, there is nothing i can do for you.

hogsanity

Quote from: steveaustin69 on December 12, 2017, 02:32:24 pm
Michigan: 5 conference titles in the same time span (3 shared)
Auburn: 2 conference titles in the same span
Nebraska: 3 conference titles in same span
VT: 7 conference titles in same span (before you try to chalk that up purely to the Big East: 1) let me remind you one of your teams up there (Miami) was in the Big East 2) 4 of those 7 were in the ACC)

Do you have to win a national title in any given decade to be considered a national power? If so, there are currently only 7 national powers. 

You listed twelve teams; half of which were not nearly as consistently good for SEVENTEEN YEARS. Who are the next three to round out a top 15? I personally consider perennially top 15 and winning conference championships to be a national power.  If you do not consider a consistently top 15 program with 7 conference championships and 8 BCS bowl appearances in a 17 year period a national power, then, again, there is nothing i can do for you.

what is your fascination with VT
> Do you think them looking good somehow makes the Hogs look good?
People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE

RME

Quote from: hogsanity on December 12, 2017, 02:39:06 pm
what is your fascination with VT
> Do you think them looking good somehow makes the Hogs look good?

It's not as much a fascination with VT as it is a fascination with some delusional fans considering a resume of 168-51, 13 10+ win seasons, 13 bowl appearances, 7 bowl wins, 8 BCS bowl appearances, 2 BCS bowl wins, and 1 national championship appearance in the span of 17 years in what was basically then a P5 as not a national power.

bphi11ips

Quote from: Atlhogfan1 on December 12, 2017, 02:04:15 pm
Smart to play to their audience a little. 

Of course it was.  No way Texas is number 3, either.  Top Ten.  Not 3.

Life is too short for grudges and feuds.

steveaustin69

Quote from: RyanMallettsEgo on December 12, 2017, 02:41:10 pm
It's not as much a fascination with VT as it is a fascination with some delusional fans considering a resume of 168-51, 13 10+ win seasons, 13 bowl appearances, 7 bowl wins, 8 BCS bowl appearances, 2 BCS bowl wins, and 1 national championship appearance in the span of 17 years in what was basically then a P5 as not a national power.

+A billion

hogsanity

Quote from: RyanMallettsEgo on December 12, 2017, 02:41:10 pm
It's not as much a fascination with VT as it is a fascination with some delusional fans considering a resume of 168-51, 13 10+ win seasons, 13 bowl appearances, 7 bowl wins, 8 BCS bowl appearances, 2 BCS bowl wins, and 1 national championship appearance in the span of 17 years in what was basically then a P5 as not a national power.

Ok, then lets get back to the topic of the OP, as of this moment is Arkansas CURRENTLY a top 30 program?
People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE

steveaustin69

Quote from: hogsanity on December 12, 2017, 02:46:31 pm
Ok, then lets get back to the topic of the OP, as of this moment is Arkansas CURRENTLY a top 30 program?

No

hogsanity

People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE